Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft: News & Discussion - 30 August 2019

lakshmanM · Post by **lakshmanM** » 07 May 2021 20:04

See for yourself. It's a picture of a plank used in the Korean radar. I have not counted the number of radiating elements on that radar but it's only a tinsy bit larger than Uttam. I wanted to make a vid about it but who has the time.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 07 May 2021 20:45

lakshmanM wrote: See for yourself. It's a picture of a plank used in the Korean radar. I have not counted the number of radiating elements on that radar but it's only a tinsy bit larger than Uttam. I wanted to make a vid about it but who has the time.

Most sources I've come across on KFX sensor put it at about 1,000 elements based on what the company/Govt. has stated at the time of unveiling the sensor/aircraft etc. Whatever the final number is (I expect it to be roughly in the ballpark of F-16 AESA size with about 5-10% variation (likely larger)) it is significantly less than the 1,500+ that their F-35A's have or what their F-15Ks can get via an upgrade. That's a potential lost opportunity to add a more capable sensor at baseline or as an upgrade though if they are power/thermally limited to operating modes (like no EA capability) then that radar size will surely suffice for the missiles onboard and they have AWACS fleet as well so it is likely not a major issue for the type of aircraft their KFX will replace (still a significant capability improvement). But for those early variants (likely the first few dozen) that won't have stealth, won't have IWB, etc a larger radar, at least one sized similar to their F-15K's would have been a better option. Especially when they were starting from scratch and not upgrading an older design (like those early single engine KFX proposals).

What your reference image appears to be showing is the layout of their 2-channel T/R unit (essentially a sub array) that contains 36 elements grouped in dual packed tiles. Their array (at least the configuration they've tested in the past) includes about a dozen differently sized TRU's with radiators ranging from 10 elements on the smallest ones (on the edges) to 36 elements for the largest ones (the largest TRU's in the center). You are correct that the correct nomenclature here is "elements " but I don't think high resolution KFX installed antenna images (final design) exist in the wild for you to be able to physically count the elements though most reports point to roughly 1,000 +/- 10%.

For reference (this could be a good ballpark), their demonstrator radar which was flight tested had 1,024 elements. I'm not sure whether that TRU configuration is what they've finally adopted for the final product but it is definitely one of the ones they spent some time testing so they should be similar.

Probably best to move future discussion on the KFX into the International thread.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 10 May 2021 13:13

From DFI..

apparently one of the intermediate iterations of the AMCA, but quite close to the final frozen design.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 25 Jul 2021 04:43

https://twitter.com/Varun55484761/statu ... 72066?s=20 ---> High Cycle Fatigue (HCF) data was generated for the indigenously developed Titanium alloy Beta21S (Titan 44A) material which intended to be used in AMCA airframe structural applications in high temperature zones.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Aug 2021 07:00

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 21667?s=20 ---> Indian defence PSU MIDHANI supplied strategic titanium alloy for the airframe of India's upcoming 5.5 generation AMCA fighter jet. The same technology that was used for titanium parts in ISRO Ganganyaan's crew escape system was used.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Aug 2021 22:42

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14027 ... 20386?s=20 --->

Having built the foundation for a 100-story sky scraper, we aren't going to stop at the first floor...

The whole world knows, we've cracked it. The future belongs to us.

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 13 Sep 2021 09:32

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thehin ... 5.ece/amp/

Rollout 2024
First Flight 2025

External payload first time goes up to 5.5T.
Internal payload 1.5T
Internal fuel 6.5T
MTOW 25 T

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 Sep 2021 10:07

https://mobile.twitter.com/TheWolfpackI ... 21579011--> Report: Configuration of 5th gen fighter aircraft AMCA has been frozen, preliminary service quality requirements finalised and preliminary design review completed. Critical design review to begin by mid-2022, with rolling-out planned in 2024 and first flight planned in 2025.

Maria · Post by **Maria** » 13 Sep 2021 12:05

NRao wrote: https://mobile.twitter.com/TheWolfpackI ... 21579011--> Report: Configuration of 5th gen fighter aircraft AMCA has been frozen, preliminary service quality requirements finalised and preliminary design review completed. Critical design review to begin by mid-2022, with rolling-out planned in 2024 and first flight planned in 2025.

If one could fast forward to 2025, beggars would ride.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 17 Sep 2021 08:59

Preliminary design review completed now and critical design review to be done after one year. If the review is done by different teams why waste one full year? Is the design not frozen at this stage??

If the critical review is going to be done by the same team then of course they would need to replenish their reviewing abilities by free chai biskoot and samosa in the interim.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2021 09:17

Perhaps the critical design review process itself will take that time.

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 17 Sep 2021 11:54

Report mentions that the critical review will start after a year.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2021 12:36

This makes no sense. There has to be a disconnect somewhere.

SinghS · Post by **SinghS** » 17 Sep 2021 13:12

Can't it be possible that some ongoing research data or test data essential for critical design review might become available after some time? Maybe preliminary design review got completed earlier than the required research for final design decisions.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 17 Sep 2021 13:31

Once preliminary design review is done, whatever changes and comments come up need to be implemented... It is only after implementation that Detailed Design Review starts....

I work in Design field in Oil sector... It is similar process... We have various stages of P&IDs... Also plant model reviews for refineries are scheduled months apart...

A fighter jet is more complicated than a refinery...
In preliminary design review, they only check the important and major items... In critical review stage they go into more details...

Ex:- In refinery design, we check major equipment and main process lines in initial in rounds... In subsequent rounds we go into more detailing...
We won't provide some minor drain lines and utility lines in preliminary stages, since they not required to finalize the layout of the refinery... In later stages, we review to the last bolt and nut...

basant · Post by **basant** » 17 Sep 2021 13:42

Recall that a two-stage full-scale engineering development process was opted for LCA. Probably something similar may be in works for AMCA.

SinghS · Post by **SinghS** » 17 Sep 2021 13:43

Very good information Lakshman. Learnt a lot from your post.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Sep 2021 14:32

RishiChatterjee · Post by **RishiChatterjee** » 17 Sep 2021 16:48

Kartik wrote:From DFI..

apparently one of the intermediate iterations of the AMCA, but quite close to the final frozen design.

Are you MirageBlue there?..

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 22 Oct 2021 22:17

https://twitter.com/Sandeep_Mave/status ... 95746?s=20 ---> The manufacturing of the prototype of AMCA of India has been started and several parts of the aircraft have already been built. Roll out - 2024.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 23 Oct 2021 00:51

https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... vaJxQ&s=09

The manufacturing of the prototype of India's 5th generation fighter Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (#AMCA) has been started and Many Components of the aircraft i.e. antennas, actuators, brake mechs has already been built.

The aircraft will be Rolled out in 2024.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 23 Oct 2021 01:31

How much additional complexity in a twin engine, stealth aircraft compared to LCA wrt flight controls, testing across various regimes etc?

Would that need ASTE to get to the next level?

If our forum gurus can write a piece on that it will be highly educative for mangomurthys like us

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 23 Oct 2021 08:09

If they can keep to the time line of roll out. The first flight will not be more than 18-24 months away. We might just have the first squadron in service by 2030.

The engine development will be the key for mass production of the aircraft.

At this point in time, the IAF/ IN have to take a hard nosed decision about the ORCA/ TEDBF. It won't be entering service before the AMCA. In terms of costs it will not be that much cheaper.

The AMCA should be used for both the programs.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 23 Oct 2021 13:09

Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14027 ... 20386?s=20 --->

Having built the foundation for a 100-story sky scraper, we aren't going to stop at the first floor...

This is OT but Important - Why has @hvtiaf deleted his profile.

Roop · Post by **Roop** » 24 Oct 2021 07:00

The manufacturing of the prototype of AMCA of India has been started and several parts of the aircraft have already been built. Roll out - 2024.

What does "rollout" mean here? Full-scale mockup parked in a hangar somewhere, available for media viewing? FIrst prototype available for media viewing? First prototype starts taxi trials?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Oct 2021 08:18

First prototype that will conduct taxi trials and subsequent test flights.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 24 Oct 2021 21:06

YashG wrote:This is OT but Important - Why has @hvtiaf deleted his profile.

He has done this before. He will come back.

Khalsa · Post by **Khalsa** » 25 Oct 2021 17:03

Rakesh wrote:
YashG wrote:This is OT but Important - Why has @hvtiaf deleted his profile.
He has done this before. He will come back.

Took the words right out of my mouth.
Yes have faith. Group Captain isn't going anywhere. I look forward to him taking over an empire or two down there by the airport.

brar_w · Post by **brar_w** » 26 Oct 2021 22:40

Cyrano wrote:How much additional complexity in a twin engine, stealth aircraft compared to LCA wrt flight controls, testing across various regimes etc?

Would that need ASTE to get to the next level?

If our forum gurus can write a piece on that it will be highly educative for mangomurthys like us

A fifth generation fighter with Low Observables, internal bay, internal sensors, and antennas is quite a bit of step up in terms of design and testing. Compare the testing flight hours and sorties to fully test the F-22A (3500 sorties/7600 hours) or F-35 (9000+ sorties/17,000+ hours) relative to F/A-18 Super Hornet or a previous 4 gen clean sheet aircraft for reference.

Manufacturing is equally a leap. About 5-6 years ago, the then head of Skunk Works gave a presentation where he had mentioned that it took them almost a full decade to prepare (lot of company and government funded investments) the General Dynamics Texas based production site (that Lockheed acquired in the mid 1990s) to be able to mass produce stealth aircraft. He mentioned manufacturing technology investments, human resource training, creating new positions and processes that didn't apply to 4th gen, and to build facilities that for QC and customer testing prior to delivery. This entailed inventing new production technology, or using new third-party production tech that the companies (LM or GD) had not previously used in aircraft production. They began this process towards the late 1990s as they hoped to have this facility be capable of producing some LO design at scale even if they lost the JSF contract. They benefited from being able to cycle a few of their mid-level production site staff through the F-22 production line to gain experience and they also created a Skunk Works team locally (which at the time was primarily based in California) to help. In case of Fort Worth, they were not starting from scratch. The line had produced thousands of combat aircraft including all of the F-16's produced in the US, the F-111, and several other aircraft going back to the B-36 in the mid 1940s. So to get the AMCA designed for producibility, and producing it at volume (a few dozen a year) is going to take some fairly substantial technology, and HR changes which will all have to happen with some lead time and through constant investment. And across the SC and not just at HAL or whosoever is going to assemble the final product. There are only a handful of VLO production sites and suppliers in the world and part of this is the cost to produce at volume.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Oct 2021 10:52

Most of the avionics for AMCA is already in development and/or will be borrowed from other aircrafts. By now I am sure that we know the basic concepts of stealth shaping etc. We are also looking at two trenches of AMCAs. So the program may be possible, though the timelines are quite aggressive as usual.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 27 Oct 2021 12:12

Yagnasri wrote:Most of the avionics for AMCA is already in development and/or will be borrowed from other aircrafts. By now I am sure that we know the basic concepts of stealth shaping etc. We are also looking at two trenches of AMCAs. So the program may be possible, though the timelines are quite aggressive as usual.

AMCA will be dependent on some of the avionics currently being developed for the Tejas Mk2 (Radar, internal EW suite, MAWS, IRST, cockpit avionics, mission computer etc.). They can't be used as is but they will definitely be further developments of those components improved to work in a stealth airframe. It is very important for the Mk2 to be productionized to get past any challenges with those components quickly while the AMCA is still in development. Otherwise the timelines will get extended even further.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 27 Oct 2021 12:44

Mk2 is a must. That will be 4th Gen fighter to replace mig21s, mig29s, jaguars, etc. We need Mk2 to do the bulk of the work cheaply and effectively. Being multirole it will have various options available to the IAF. If we have a good scale of production we can fill 42 Sqs and even increase. All we need to a large order and production line.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 19 Nov 2021 08:46

On AMCA intakes, sorry it's in Hindi:

Vicky · Post by **Vicky** » 20 Nov 2021 03:42

Manish_Sharma wrote:https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... vaJxQ&s=09

The manufacturing of the prototype of India's 5th generation fighter Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (#AMCA) has been started and Many Components of the aircraft i.e. antennas, actuators, brake mechs has already been built.

The aircraft will be Rolled out in 2024.

Likely the wing structures for structural qualification since it is an entirely new wing compared to the existing validated structure of LCA. ADA director in tarmak interview clearly stated that wing design will be the first to be manufactured and design was already nearing completion at HAL when he made the statement in March 2021. These structures will likely go into the test rings for validation to develop data for the CDR before they sign off the design for the first prototype during CDR. AFAIK PDR was supposed to complete this year. CDR likely in mid-2023 for AMCA Tranche-1. Tranche-2 is linked to the progress of the Kaveri successor program and will come later.

Also ADA statememt in March stated that a full scale mockup was being built to validate RCS which is probably complete now and in the test rigs.

I know that NAL already developed FSS stuff but don't know whether they are ready to scale up into the full fledged radome. Hoping for the best.

Also to note is that there were tenders by ADA to modify a canopy coating facility at HAL. Probably for AMCA's radar reflective/absorbent canopy. If they are upgrading the rigs now, they are less than a year away from the test specimens being made. (Ye olde media reports once claimed that MMRCA negotiations were stuck because Dassault wasn't ready to share similar tech for Rafale - where we were 10 years ago vs now)

It's not clear whether funds are actually approved by CCS for prototype manufacture. There is no public info regarding this as CCS doesn't publish PRs for fund approvals of development programs. SJha is questioning that funds aren't approved yet. I seriously hope this is not true or is simply outdated and IAF & MOD don't delay fund approvals like they did durinbg LCA FSED.

vivek_ahuja · Post by **vivek_ahuja** » 22 Nov 2021 09:47

Kartik wrote:From DFI..

apparently one of the intermediate iterations of the AMCA, but quite close to the final frozen design.

This airplane is so pleasing to the eye. Just has the smooth lines of a Ferrari.

Imagine what we all capabilities we could develop with this airplane. I hope the designers are pushing with full gusto and drive to get the AMCA into the air before the F-35 is strategically offered to the IAF in the next 5 years to try and sink this program.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 22 Nov 2021 12:08

Vicky, the funds for the prototype will be released once the aircraft passes it's CDR. until then it will not be moving beyond the mock-up stage.

The fact that it has even reached the CDR shows that the funding for basic research and development was available to the ADA and partners.

ashishvikas · Post by **ashishvikas** » 22 Nov 2021 13:37

Made-in-India stealth fighter project set to take off in 2022
Rajat Pandit

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 838884.cms

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 24 Nov 2021 14:32

IAF Chief, in his BW interview, refers to 2 squadrons of AMCA-1 and 5 of AMCA-2.

What is the difference between the 2? No doubt, AMCA will be a series of aircraft. But while we are in the CDR stage of AMCA, if we are already thinking of only 2 squadrons for AMCA-1, while the bulk is in AMCA-2, do we know clearly what AMCA-2 will bring to the table that AMCA-1 won't, this early?

Is it the engines?

CAS: IAF is prepared for any conflict, conventional or otherwise. Our focus remains on building operational capability against prevailing threats. The IAF CONOPS (Concept of Operations), policies, force structure and operational training are designed to handle all envisaged and emerging threats on any front.

IAF has currently planned for 83 LCA, 70 HTT-40, two Sqns of AMCA Mk-I and five Sqns of AMCA MK-II. Additionally, the order for LCH and other developments in the helicopter fleet will provide for 400/450 aircraft.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 24 Nov 2021 14:49

The plan for the AMCA has always included 40 mk1 and rest being Mk2. The mk1 is primarily on account of the GE414.

Though it has never been specifically stated what the Mk2 will have different other than indigenous engine's.

But it's quite strange that the IAF is so certain that we will not have indigenous engine's for the first 40 aircrafts. Even though the need was identified around 2014-15.

For an aircraft that will first fly around 2026-28.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 24 Nov 2021 16:10

Prem Kumar wrote:IAF Chief, in his BW interview, refers to 2 squadrons of AMCA-1 and 5 of AMCA-2.

What is the difference between the 2? No doubt, AMCA will be a series of aircraft. But while we are in the CDR stage of AMCA, if we are already thinking of only 2 squadrons for AMCA-1, while the bulk is in AMCA-2, do we know clearly what AMCA-2 will bring to the table that AMCA-1 won't, this early?

Is it the engines?

AFAIK...
AMCA Mk1is pure 5th Gen jet...
AMCA Mk2 is being called 5.5 Gen jet... It will have some 6 Gen capabilities viz. Optionally Manned, Direct Energy Weapons, Manned Unmanned team up etc.... These systems along with ability to super cruise require more powerful engines...