Vivek K wrote:Bring it on brother - that would be a terrific effort to improve Indian national security. However, your post borders on (with all humility) a) lack of belief in Indian MIC, b) ingrained acceptance of everything foreign. That is why since you have no real answer, you're pushing the limits to show indigenous efforts in poor light.
I am highlighting the inconsistency in your own standards. You asked me to add up all of India's imports and see what the cost is. When I highlighted it, you are getting takleef over it. Oh well.
Actually I get it now. You only wanted me to add up the French imports (Mirage 2000 and Rafale) and not the Russian imports (MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25, MiG-27, MiG-29, Su-7, Su-30, etc). You should have been more clearer. So you are correct. French imports are expensive and they are a waste of money and they destroyed the Indian MIC. The Russian imports - which cost way more than the French imports, due to the sheer scale of numbers acquired from Russia - actually uplifted the Indian MIC. 36 Rafales and 49 Mirage 2000s cost the Indian taxpayer a lot more than the hundreds (if not over a thousand) of Russian planes India acquired since the 60s.
You are so correct. I hang my head in shame over the French imports. Shame, Shame.
Vivek K wrote:Again, your defence of imports is affecting your thought process. You're bringing in an aspect that has not even been discussed in these threads. The Sukhoi is not an MRCA. The question and the argument here is - India does not need an MRCA - build the MK1, the MK1A and the MK2. That would provide enough capability to phase out the Jaguars and the Mirages. Larger orders of the Mk1/MK1A would allow fleet strength enhancement. It has never been argued that the MK1 or MK1A should be considered replacements for the Sukhoi. Are you fighting imaginary blows?
But that would go against your argument that imports are bad. Since the Su-30MKI is an import, then it is bad. Is that not the standard that you are repeatedly emphasizing on BRF? That an import destroys the local MIC.
In that same vein, C-17 is also bad. C-130 is also bad. Never mind that we have no local platforms to substitute them with, but they are bad...because they are imports. You asked me to add up all of India's imports. I am doing it. Are they not bad Vivek? Yes or No?
Why buy imports like C-17 and C-130 to supply much needed material to the Indian Armed Forces? Is sustaining really necessary over supporting the local MIC? Or it could it actually be that these imports - like C-17, Su-30MKI and C-130 - are vital because there is no substitute local product? Yes or No?
Vivek K wrote:Admiral Sir - read the above. Yes - if the IAF, the GOI had all believed in domestic MIC and continued development of the Marut, there may have been an aircraft on offer to compete with the MKI.
But since that did NOT happen, what do you want the IAF to do? Retire all the imports and wait for the local MIC to come out with a product? How does the IAF conduct her primary mission - protect the air space - till a local product comes on board?
What do we tell Pakistan and China?
Give me 10 years please. I need to develop my own product. You cannot attack me. This is not fair.
You keep bringing up the past (Marut), but it is the past. It cannot be changed. How does it change the situation today? If I had invested in Google or Amazon back in the 90s, I would be a billionaire today. But since that did not happen and following your role model, I should be in deep depression over it. I should be doing rona-dhona everyday, like you how do you on BRF because of the Marut.
Vivek K wrote:Really Admiral? But seriously tell me this, do you think that the Tejas is capable of induction into the IAF? What do you believe in? Are you yet again putting words in my mouth because you feel that the Tejas is not capable? How capable do you think the Tejas is - as much as Mig-21/19/17/15 or less?
Seriously tell me this. How capable do you think the Tejas Mk1 variant would have been vis-a-viv the upgraded Mirage 2000I? Because these variants were used at Balakot. I asked you a specific question on Balakot, so please be specific. Please do not give me statements on MiG-teens being less capable than the Tejas.
Would the Tejas Mk1 variant been able to do what the upgraded Mirage 2000 variant did at Balakot? When Avenger 1 (Su-30MKI) held the fort against a number of ingressing PAF aircraft on Feb 27th, Tejas would have done a better job. Why do technical specifications and parameters matter? Import is bad after all.
When the time comes for the Tejas to prove her mettle, it will be used by the very same IAF that used the Marut during the 1971 Indo-Pak War.
Vivek K wrote:So there you have it - You're the one pushing French vendors! I am pushing neither the Russian or the French or any other. Paying as much as a new aircraft for an upgrade (be it for any aircraft) will always be questioned - irrespective of the vendor/nation involved. Careful Sirji - don't get carried away by imagined slights.
You are the one who said that the Mirage 2000 upgrade is a waste of money because it did not have an engine upgrade.
You are also stating that the MiG-29 upgrade cost a lot of money and therefore they should be used till the end of their service life. But it did not have an engine upgrade.
You also said that the Su-30MKI should be used till the end of her service life. But just like the MiG-29 and Mirage 2000, they are being upgraded as well but without an engine upgrade.
So I ask again, is the MiG-29 upgrade and the Su-30MKI upgrade a waste of money...just like the Mirage 2000 upgrade? Since you support using the Su-30 and MiG-29 till they end of their service life, they have to be upgraded to stay relevant. But yet you find it hard to swallow when it comes to the French Mirage 2000? Why?
But I get it now. The few billions it will cost to upgrade 272 Su-30MKIs and the $900+ million it cost to upgrade the MiG-29s will be cheaper than upgrading 49 Mirage 2000s at $2.2 billion. French are bad (no engine upgrade), Russians are saints (no engine upgrade). French have looted us (no engine upgrade), Russians have uplifted us (no engine upgrade). How could I have missed this?
Vivek K wrote:Pray enlighten me about what your intent in the above is. I don't know if I understand - "are you referring to the American Engine in the Tejas? And are you pointing to US sanctions on the engine? Well - Sirji - pray read the geopolitics again. US needs allies against China. Unless we're allying with China...... (that is a discussion for another time). So how come if there is this fear that orders for GE engines (200-500 nos) not already placed? The Tejas has been ready since 2015 - the IAF made it jump through additional hopes waiting for the Chobham nose cone and the IFR probe additions. The engines could have been ordered way back then.
Am I reading this correctly?
You are actually arguing for an import and that too in numbers of 200 - 500? You? Import?
Why is the IAF doing the opposite then? I ask again ---> Why is the IAF insisting that after the first two units of the AMCA, all follow-on units of the AMCA be powered by a turbofan of Indian origin? Why not stick with the proven GE F414? An turbofan that has thousands of proven flight hours and from an organization that lives & breathes turbofans for a living? Why add risk to the program? Is the IAF not reading the geopolitics? Why did the CAG report on MMRCA 1.0 clearly state that the IAF was apprehensive about purchasing the F-16 or F-18 because of fear of sanctions? Why is it an open secret that the IAF still feels that way, till today?
Think carefully before you answer....AMCA is a local product. GE F414 is a phoren product and so it is an import. And in your own words, "
....add up India's imports and correct them to today's dollars. The number will make you want to hang your head in shame...."
Vivek K wrote:a) Build up fleet strength - how does that involve the MKI? I fail to see the thought process.
Somebody told me to add up India's imports and correct them to today's dollars. The number will make me want to hang my head in shame and reverse the Rafale purchase.
Su-30MKI is not an import. MiG-29 is not an import. MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-25 and MiG-27 are all not imports.
Mirage 2000 is an import. Upgrading Mirage 2000 is bad. Rafale is an import. Buying Rafale is bad.
Building the fleet strength with Tejas is wonderful.
Building the fleet strength with hundreds of Russian aircraft, not ideal...but ok.
But building the fleet strength with 36 French Rafales and 49 French Mirage 2000s is haram.
I hang my head in shame.
Vivek K wrote:(b) The Admiral insists upon retiring aircraft that have significant life left in them and have been upgraded. The time for that decision would have been before the investment. Now - there is no chance even in hell that anyone is even thinking of that.
Somebody told me to add up India's imports and correct them to today's dollars. The number will make me want to hang my head in shame and reverse the Rafale purchase.
The $900 million invested in the MiG-29 upgrade is okay, because they have significant life left in them.
The billions India will spend in upgrading 272 Su-30MKIs is okay, because they have significant life left in them.
The $2.2 billion invested in Mirage 2000 upgrade should have been invested in the Tejas, despite the fact that they have significant life left in them.
But I get it. French Upgrade = Waste of Money. Russian Upgrade = Significant Life Left in Them.
I hang my head in shame.