Alluding to the Chinese military build-up across the Line of Actual Control, the Centre told the Supreme Court Thursday that wider roads are needed in the Char Dham mountain region of Uttarakhand to transport missiles like the BrahMos and other critical military equipment.
“The Army has to take the BrahMos… a large area will be required. If it results in landslides, the Army will tackle it. How do we go if the roads are not wide enough?” Attorney General K K Venugopal, appearing for the Centre, told a bench headed by Justice D Y Chandrachud.
Underlining “we have to defend the country” and “roads have to be made available to the Line of Actual Control in spite of landslides, snowfall or whatever,” Venugopal said “we are vulnerable” and “have to do whatever we can”.
The bench is hearing a plea by NGO Citizens for Green Doon which has challenged the Stage-I forest and wildlife clearance granted for improvement and expansion of feeder roads there by felling trees.
Two days ago, the bench, also comprising Justices Surya Kant and Vikram Nath, had underlined its “predicament” by asking if it could “override defence needs” on environmental grounds.
India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Char Dham road: BrahMos needs to be taken to LAC, need wide roads, says govt
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
This is going too far. What happens if the plaintiff comes back and presents to the court that the Brahmos transportation argument is flawed because the ER version of the missile will have a range of over 900 kms and it can be used from the plains areas as well.
The government should simply say that it is for the defence of the nation in the face of a belligerent PRC. Every other concern is secondary to that.
Besides why is the executive decision which has not been held unconstitutional in the supreme court are being decided by the courts. If they will be allowed to be completed or not?
The government should simply say that it is for the defence of the nation in the face of a belligerent PRC. Every other concern is secondary to that.
Besides why is the executive decision which has not been held unconstitutional in the supreme court are being decided by the courts. If they will be allowed to be completed or not?
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
I understand the need for checks and balances. Foolish ness like this makes me wish that we were a one man dictatorship.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
it is not just foolishness. these ngos are the hidden arm of foreign powers trying to stop india from defending itself.[Edited]
These ba@rds should be investigated and put behind bars not with a black coat lecturing us.
These ba@rds should be investigated and put behind bars not with a black coat lecturing us.
Last edited by ramana on 12 Nov 2021 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Edited by ramana.
Reason: Edited by ramana.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
....
Please don't quote.
Report is enough.
Adds work to edit your post.
ramana
Please don't quote.
Report is enough.
Adds work to edit your post.
ramana
Last edited by ramana on 12 Nov 2021 21:59, edited 1 time in total.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Chinese PLA surveys villages and military posts in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir
IANS NOV 10 2021, 21:59 ISTUPDATED: NOV 10 2021, 22:07 IST
Chinese People Liberation Army personnel are carrying out a survey of the border posts and villages in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir to strengthen the Pakistan military apparatus across Line of Control, said sources, adding Indian security forces are keeping an eye on the activities and motives behind the survey.
Sources said that around four dozen Chinese People's Liberation Army soldiers arrived in general area Kel, Jura and Leepa sectors of Pakistan-occupied Kashmir a month ago.
The groups were accompanied by Pakistan Army personnel, Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) officers, and interpreters.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
I was given a quite a sober update on the PLA-IA talks. Basically there is agreement on most outstanding matters in the last talks - just one issue that the PLA is resisting. They think a few more sessions and the matter will be resolved. IA quite positive about talks (despite negativity in the media which is probably just posturing)
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
See the duvida of SCI judges. They had similar duvida before Dakiat's attack on R-Day parade. They defended the right of rioters more than national decorum.
A big source of anarchy.
Just recently there was an intrusion in Uttarakhand and yet the judges have this moral dilemma!!!
A big source of anarchy.
Just recently there was an intrusion in Uttarakhand and yet the judges have this moral dilemma!!!
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
I was doing a bit of thinking on the Judiciary and the need / relevance / efficacy of it in today's India.ramana wrote:See the duvida of SCI judges. They had similar duvida before Dakiat's attack on R-Day parade. They defended the right of rioters more than national decorum.
A big source of anarchy.
Just recently there was an intrusion in Uttarakhand and yet the judges have this moral dilemma!!!
Here's my understanding of how things work:
1) Most liberals & law experts & judges like to underline the superiority of the law and the constitution i.e. "XXX action or legislation cannot be allowed to detract or infringe upon the basic structure of the constitution"
2) However there is a basic flaw in the above premise. It is not that (1) the Constitution and (2) the Law and (3) the Supreme Court are untouchable or inviolable or the ultimate source of truth. The reality is all these 3 constructs are wholly and solely underwritten by the CONSENT of the people of India
3) Just because the people of India consented back in 1947 to these 3 constructs doesn't mean that is how it is going to be for eternity. If the will and desire of the people demand it in 2021 or 2051, (1) the Constitution can be re-written, (2) the Law can be overhauled, (3) the Supreme Court can be disbanded / reconstructed / eliminated altogether
4) The men holding the guns - the police, the paramilitaries, the militaries - are the ones who play the swing role during any political crisis of high magnitude. History has shown time and again that these institutions depend upon public participation and usually side with public will - at least in large countries
I believe this argument is not provocative, but happy to hear any counterpoints. Mods...please feel free to edit if needed.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
In any organisation thats held to high esteem by the rest of the society but is only answerable to itself, arrogance will set in, and it will react angrily when questioned or challenged.
What comes next has been taught to us already:
Krodhad Bhavati Sammohah Sammohat Smriti-vibhramah ।
Smriti-bhranshad Buddhi-nasho Buddhi-nashat Pranashyati ।।
Bhavad Gita 2:63
Hizzoners need to go on a reform path for their own good before the society compels them to.
What comes next has been taught to us already:
Krodhad Bhavati Sammohah Sammohat Smriti-vibhramah ।
Smriti-bhranshad Buddhi-nasho Buddhi-nashat Pranashyati ।।
Bhavad Gita 2:63
Hizzoners need to go on a reform path for their own good before the society compels them to.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Titash,
Conceptually you are right. Otherwise whats the difference between a republic and a theocratic state which rules ordained by some "book" be it divine or man made?
There is a burgeoning demand for a second republic in India to recast our governance principles and structures based on a de-colonialised, Bharatiya framework. Its doesn't mean an insular approach where everything non-Indian must be rejected, but good ideas and models from anywhere are welcome as long as they are compatible with our own Bharatiya-Sanatana world view, ethics, morality and aspirations - aka Dharma.
FWIW, France today is governed by the 5th iteration of its republic.
Conceptually you are right. Otherwise whats the difference between a republic and a theocratic state which rules ordained by some "book" be it divine or man made?
There is a burgeoning demand for a second republic in India to recast our governance principles and structures based on a de-colonialised, Bharatiya framework. Its doesn't mean an insular approach where everything non-Indian must be rejected, but good ideas and models from anywhere are welcome as long as they are compatible with our own Bharatiya-Sanatana world view, ethics, morality and aspirations - aka Dharma.
FWIW, France today is governed by the 5th iteration of its republic.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Thx for editting that ramana. I know I should not write those things on an open forum. But u know I am right. India faces so many challenges internally. I do not envy NAMO,s job.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
China biggest security threat, says General Bipin Rawat
Much water has flowed down the Ganga since George Fernandes as Defence Minister made the same statement in 1998.....this time there is no criticism ...the times are a-changing.TNN / Updated: Nov 13, 2021, 05:00 IST
NEW DELHI: China is the biggest security threat facing India, "much bigger" than Pakistan and the country is prepared to deal with "any misadventure" on "the land borders or the high seas" chief of Defence Staff General Bipin Rawat said.
Asked whether China was "enemy number 1" at the Times Now Summit on Thursday evening General Rawat said there was "no doubt" about it. "The threat on the northern border is much bigger" he said.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
This kind of attacks on India must not have been heard in the first place. And what the government must think of gifting the environment loving judges with Trees planted all along their road reducing the size of unwanted road, so that milords can bicycle to work.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
What Gonsalves & the black-nighties are doing is identical to what Rahul Gandhi did post-Balakot. Make a public spectacle of a national-security event, forcing the Government to reveal details that they shouldn't, all of which help the enemy. The "helping the enemy" bit is not by accident.
I don't know if we will see the day that the 330 seat winning Govt will put the nighties in their place. This tamasha has gone on for too long. The 5.5m recommendation was from 2018 & this case has been dragging on for months, while the Chinese are sharpening their bayonets.
I don't know if we will see the day that the 330 seat winning Govt will put the nighties in their place. This tamasha has gone on for too long. The 5.5m recommendation was from 2018 & this case has been dragging on for months, while the Chinese are sharpening their bayonets.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Cant the Govt/AG request in camera hearings if matters are so sensitive? In this case, its good that the AG made the statements he made, our adversaries will take note that we are getting fully prepared to climb any ladder if required.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
TUNNELS+BUNKERS vs. ARTILLERY
TWITTER
@Daeroplate_v2:
Ineffectiveness of massed artillery against stone sangars seen in kargil
Ineffectiveness of more massed artillery incl 16” cannons against concrete bunkers/palmtree logs/coralsand layer/tunnels seen in tarawa, iwo jima & okinawa..neither could zhukovs guns silence zeelow heights
None of the peaks occupied in kargil and their back routes to pak could be silenced by masses of artillery even in direct fire mode. Supply camps in back needed air strikes
I wonder where that leaves the plagf vision of non-contact victory to punish the yindu using artillery and troops only to mop up…
We need to build iwo jima and okinawa type warrens of tunnels on front and reverse slopes to sit inside safely during artillery strikes .. just as the japanese skilfully did
Japanese had a real talent for survivable tunnels with MG and artillery poking their snouts out to fire at last minute. Tawara was a big shock for the usmc and the american public https://t.co/bgnHVYYj58
___________
@Khadag_Charma:
Actually yes. Skillfully made sangers cannot be disrupted normal massed arty shot. They cannot do airstrikes, because IAF is not Fizzleya or PLAAF itself. But what if they use guided arty rounds?
@Daeroplate_v2:
Ineffectiveness of massed artillery against stone sangars seen in kargil
Ineffectiveness of more massed artillery incl 16” cannons against concrete bunkers/palmtree logs/coralsand layer/tunnels seen in tarawa, iwo jima & okinawa..neither could zhukovs guns silence zeelow heights
None of the peaks occupied in kargil and their back routes to pak could be silenced by masses of artillery even in direct fire mode. Supply camps in back needed air strikes
I wonder where that leaves the plagf vision of non-contact victory to punish the yindu using artillery and troops only to mop up…
We need to build iwo jima and okinawa type warrens of tunnels on front and reverse slopes to sit inside safely during artillery strikes .. just as the japanese skilfully did
Japanese had a real talent for survivable tunnels with MG and artillery poking their snouts out to fire at last minute. Tawara was a big shock for the usmc and the american public https://t.co/bgnHVYYj58
___________
@Khadag_Charma:
Actually yes. Skillfully made sangers cannot be disrupted normal massed arty shot. They cannot do airstrikes, because IAF is not Fizzleya or PLAAF itself. But what if they use guided arty rounds?
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
I miss this twitter handles posts on the forum. He has his own unique and inimitable style of posting to get his point of view across!!Manish_Sharma wrote:TUNNELS+BUNKERS vs. ARTILLERY
@Daeroplate_v2:
Ineffectiveness of massed artillery against stone sangars seen in kargil
Ineffectiveness of more massed artillery incl 16” cannons against concrete bunkers/palmtree logs/coralsand layer/tunnels seen in tarawa, iwo jima & okinawa..neither could zhukovs guns silence zeelow heights
None of the peaks occupied in kargil and their back routes to pak could be silenced by masses of artillery even in direct fire mode. Supply camps in back needed air strikes
I wonder where that leaves the plagf vision of non-contact victory to punish the yindu using artillery and troops only to mop up…
We need to build iwo jima and okinawa type warrens of tunnels on front and reverse slopes to sit inside safely during artillery strikes .. just as the japanese skilfully did
Japanese had a real talent for survivable tunnels with MG and artillery poking their snouts out to fire at last minute. Tawara was a big shock for the usmc and the american public https://t.co/bgnHVYYj58
But in this case I think that the PLA wants to degrade Indian air power and the rear supply and support echelons so that the troops on the front line even if dug in warrens of tunnels will soon run out of supplies and be without close air support. So massed artillery plus short range ballistic missiles and ground and air launched cruise missiles will target the rear supply lines, fuel depots and IAF air bases. The PLA then hopes that getting these dug in front line troops out will be a mopping up operation. At least that seems to be their strategy.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Self Deleted ...
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
When Ghazni was threatening the north-west frontiers of India, I guess Indian rulers were
# thinking that he is just posing - he will not attack.
# The senapati and others in incharge would be asking the rulers to start preparing by increasing cavalry or archer units, but the rulers were perhaps too busy in their own battles, conquering neighbouring states and increasing the area they ruled internally
# Some wise courtmen of the rulers would have asked for allotment of funds for internal development of new weapons & horse husbandry but the rulers felt they would be able to do with what they had or could buy some horses from central asian traders
# While the enemy was at the gates, the rulers could not come together internally to put up a good show
# The praja was too engrossed in their own internal matters, they felt no alacrity to act
# There were some noises by some quarters over what we could do but they were never heard - the court bureaucracy had their own outdated ideas and pace of action
-------
may be thats the story of how our civilization behaves when the threat appears. It is not without merit that history repeats. I hope it doesnt this time.
# thinking that he is just posing - he will not attack.
# The senapati and others in incharge would be asking the rulers to start preparing by increasing cavalry or archer units, but the rulers were perhaps too busy in their own battles, conquering neighbouring states and increasing the area they ruled internally
# Some wise courtmen of the rulers would have asked for allotment of funds for internal development of new weapons & horse husbandry but the rulers felt they would be able to do with what they had or could buy some horses from central asian traders
# While the enemy was at the gates, the rulers could not come together internally to put up a good show
# The praja was too engrossed in their own internal matters, they felt no alacrity to act
# There were some noises by some quarters over what we could do but they were never heard - the court bureaucracy had their own outdated ideas and pace of action
-------
may be thats the story of how our civilization behaves when the threat appears. It is not without merit that history repeats. I hope it doesnt this time.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
If we know a shooting match is going to happen, why aren't the armed forces or the MoD
1) Place orders for K9, Dhanush & ask L&T to manufacture in wartime mode
2) Induct LCH
3) Order Nirbhay, Shaurya, advanced Pinaka etc
4) Induct SAAW in huge numbers
Everyone seems to be operating at a glacial pace as if the enemy will act at a time, place & scale of our choosing.
Today, PM Modi, with the click of a button, transferred a total of 700 Crores to 1.3 Lakh people in Tripura. If that's possible, why isn't the above possible?
1) Place orders for K9, Dhanush & ask L&T to manufacture in wartime mode
2) Induct LCH
3) Order Nirbhay, Shaurya, advanced Pinaka etc
4) Induct SAAW in huge numbers
Everyone seems to be operating at a glacial pace as if the enemy will act at a time, place & scale of our choosing.
Today, PM Modi, with the click of a button, transferred a total of 700 Crores to 1.3 Lakh people in Tripura. If that's possible, why isn't the above possible?
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
What's needed is being done. That's all we need to know for now. At the proper time will find out more.
Last year I had posted that we need to think in probability terms after Galwan.
The probability of PLA attacking in North East was 1.0.*
However, we don't know where or when.
Where can be narrowed by looking at the entire LAC and seeking places where the PLA has an advantage and reinforcing the places as needed. As for when the window is from April to November when the weather permits.
NOw GOI has gone beyond and by a series of measures has reduced the probability to less than 1.0.
Hopefully, it will be reduced even further.
Last year I had posted that we need to think in probability terms after Galwan.
The probability of PLA attacking in North East was 1.0.*
However, we don't know where or when.
Where can be narrowed by looking at the entire LAC and seeking places where the PLA has an advantage and reinforcing the places as needed. As for when the window is from April to November when the weather permits.
NOw GOI has gone beyond and by a series of measures has reduced the probability to less than 1.0.
Hopefully, it will be reduced even further.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
^^ Ramana Saar, might I recommend upgrading that model somewhat to think of it not just as a probability value, but rather, as a random process where the probability is a function of time and place. The asymptotic probability that India and China will be in an armed conflict is 1.0, so the more interesting koschin is about what those probabilities are in each sector in the short, medium, and long term, and at differing escalation levels.
My thought is the govt has bought itself maybe 9 months before we see another Galwan or Dokalam style flare-up, but i cannot see the detente lasting much longer than that. My prediction: further constriction along the Y-junction and depsang, with company-sized ingresses by PLA in Arunachal.
We need to use the winter to improve our positioning, maybe prepare our troops and supplies so that at the sign of first spring thaw, we quickly push forward to hold the heights, possibly reoccupy the heights we gave up near South Pangong, and if possibly, encircle PLA positions near the Y junction. Will it be seen as escalatory? Sure. But if played right, it can be leverage to force PLA back from the Y junction and Depsang. They understand only force. So let's deal those cards to them!
My thought is the govt has bought itself maybe 9 months before we see another Galwan or Dokalam style flare-up, but i cannot see the detente lasting much longer than that. My prediction: further constriction along the Y-junction and depsang, with company-sized ingresses by PLA in Arunachal.
We need to use the winter to improve our positioning, maybe prepare our troops and supplies so that at the sign of first spring thaw, we quickly push forward to hold the heights, possibly reoccupy the heights we gave up near South Pangong, and if possibly, encircle PLA positions near the Y junction. Will it be seen as escalatory? Sure. But if played right, it can be leverage to force PLA back from the Y junction and Depsang. They understand only force. So let's deal those cards to them!
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
I too had it as time and place but didn't want to complicate it for our readers.
My next sentence was govt has taken and will take steps to eliminate this probability function as time goes by.
Also, note that COP26 China sided with India on the coal phase down.
My next sentence was govt has taken and will take steps to eliminate this probability function as time goes by.
Also, note that COP26 China sided with India on the coal phase down.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
ramana, the COP26 issue was a happenstance and a necessity for China. Even the US for that matter. This is not any barometer for anything else. Even earlier, India and China had taken a visibly unanimous stance on climate issues (Jairam Ramesh's tenure)
Nobody yet knows the exact reason for the incidents from May last year. Our guess is there are multiple reasons and none of them has disappeared. If anything, they have only accentuated.
Nobody yet knows the exact reason for the incidents from May last year. Our guess is there are multiple reasons and none of them has disappeared. If anything, they have only accentuated.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Agreed. Xi's schedule if anything is accelerating. China does not want their society to follow "degenerate" America and implode as Wang Huning characterizes the US and hence the crackdown on social and cultural icons and non Chinese norms which have crept into Chinese society. Capitalism with Chinese characteristics allowed the creation of unparalleled asset values which in turn furthered the global aims of the CCP. But having reached a benchmark of having more credit in the system than even the US supported by hard assets such as real estate there was a need to reign in the new barons of Chinese business specially when one of them was so bold as to criticize the Chinese establishment for having "a pawn shop mentality" in public i.e. Jack Ma. And hence the crackdown on Chinese business. At the end of the day Xi wants Chinese national power i.e. both economic and military focused on achieving the CCP objective of attaining parity with the US. The party has supposedly set 2049 as the date for achieving that objective i.e. the centenary of the founding of the People's Republic. But internal Chinese gossip suggests that the goal is earlier, by 2035. That makes sense because Xi would like that Chinese goal to be achieved while he is still around in some form. He is 68 now and by 2035 will be 82 and as such not inconceivable that he will still be in power and lucid. 2049 on the other hand is a bridge too for him considering his age.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
This idea seems like common sense, but there are some unknowns. One the ground situation in Depsang and Y junction is not clearly communicated officially from the GoI side. We only have some speculation and a lot of leaks from the Media. Two, it should be an uphill task to supply our current positions in winter, how are we going to augment that for an offensive maneuver in early spring? Three, it seems like GoI and our armed forces are not in any panic mode. There is no signal of any wartime preparation. That tells me the probability of further aggression by the Chinese has been reduced and GoI is confident in dealing with the situation.k prasad wrote:(...)
We need to use the winter to improve our positioning, maybe prepare our troops and supplies so that at the sign of first spring thaw, we quickly push forward to hold the heights, possibly reoccupy the heights we gave up near South Pangong, and if possibly, encircle PLA positions near the Y junction. Will it be seen as escalatory? Sure. But if played right, it can be leverage to force PLA back from the Y junction and Depsang. They understand only force. So let's deal those cards to them!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
PM Modi planned handover of the 1st LCH to the IAF on Nov 19, is a very good signal. Its one of the 2 LCHs that's already flying with the IAF in Ladakh for over a year.
Plus the Vice Chief recently flew in it in Ladakh. So, all these should hopefully translate to orders soon.
RM Kadi Ninda isn't the same caliber as Parikkar. For good or for bad, Modi's intervention/control is needed on most topics of governance. Its sorely needed in the area of Defense. Very few ministries can operate with competence independently (Piyush Goyal and Gadkari are a couple of exceptions that come to mind). For everything else, Modi is needed. He needs to intervene and get this Atmanirbhar Defense Mass-Induction plan in place and drive it on a war-footing (like how he drove Jan Dhan, Ayushman Bharat, Jal Jeevan etc).
Plus the Vice Chief recently flew in it in Ladakh. So, all these should hopefully translate to orders soon.
RM Kadi Ninda isn't the same caliber as Parikkar. For good or for bad, Modi's intervention/control is needed on most topics of governance. Its sorely needed in the area of Defense. Very few ministries can operate with competence independently (Piyush Goyal and Gadkari are a couple of exceptions that come to mind). For everything else, Modi is needed. He needs to intervene and get this Atmanirbhar Defense Mass-Induction plan in place and drive it on a war-footing (like how he drove Jan Dhan, Ayushman Bharat, Jal Jeevan etc).
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
India has the third largest military spending and the fourth strongest military and it is going to defend in mountain terrain. In such a terrain the offensive force needs to have 9 to 10 times the strength of the defender. Also, India has highly motivated armed forces. So, it is obvious that China cannot have an easy victory. In fact the outcome is unpredictable. They had an advantage in May 2020 because they sneaked in when IA was not there. Now it will be different with IA present in force and IAF there to provide support as well.
So it is highly unlikely there will be a major battle as of now. They might try to sneak into areas here and there.
So it is highly unlikely there will be a major battle as of now. They might try to sneak into areas here and there.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 85794?s=20 ---> Xi told Biden in this morning's virtual summit, since the founding of the PRC China had neither initiated war with nor occupied an inch of land of another country.
If that leaves you befuddled, note that China calls the war it launched in 1962 a 'counterattack in self defence'...
If that leaves you befuddled, note that China calls the war it launched in 1962 a 'counterattack in self defence'...
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
https://twitter.com/EnemySlayer24_7/sta ... 28072?s=20 ---> Arunachal Pradesh CM Pema Khandu: Arunachal Pradesh does not share any direct border with China, but only with Tibet.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Totally different picture from franceinfo report on the same. It says Xi warned Biden that by supporting Taiwan's independence the US is "playing with fire", and "if the separatists in Taiwan cross the red line, China will take decisive steps".Rakesh wrote:https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 85794?s=20 ---> Xi told Biden in this morning's virtual summit, since the founding of the PRC China had neither initiated war with nor occupied an inch of land of another country.
If that leaves you befuddled, note that China calls the war it launched in 1962 a 'counterattack in self defence'...
So believe whom you will !
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
First Thing: Biden and Xi warn each other over future of Taiwan
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -of-taiwan
What were they even trying to achieve? I hope biden took quad allies in confidence in private over this - or else it sends a wrong signal that US will cut its deals with China for its own interest and everyone will be left standing alone in the quad.
Biden-Chhi talks were a stupid idea. It only gives chhi legitimacy. Otherwise Chhi is a total narcissist, his decisions will weaken china at his own interest.
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/202 ... -of-taiwan
What were they even trying to achieve? I hope biden took quad allies in confidence in private over this - or else it sends a wrong signal that US will cut its deals with China for its own interest and everyone will be left standing alone in the quad.
Biden-Chhi talks were a stupid idea. It only gives chhi legitimacy. Otherwise Chhi is a total narcissist, his decisions will weaken china at his own interest.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Oh, didn't you know that? Benign China has never believed in violence. It can never make a mistake. It always has the interests of the rest of the world uppermost in its mind. Confucius has taught only 'ren' (benevolence') and 'xin' (being a trusted friend). He was only concerned that the non-Han 'barbarians' were resisting in spite of being shown the right way (which of course was, and is, Sinicization). For the life of him, he couldn't understand, the great sagacious scholar that otherwise he was, why the barbarians resisted this simple thing !Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 85794?s=20 ---> Xi told Biden in this morning's virtual summit, since the founding of the PRC China had neither initiated war with nor occupied an inch of land of another country.
If that leaves you befuddled, note that China calls the war it launched in 1962 a 'counterattack in self defence'...
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
India, China agree to go for more military talks
NEW DELHI: After the LAC disengagement talks between senior commanders last month ended on a sour note with both sides blaming each other for the continued deadlock, India and China were back on the dialogue table Thursday with another round of diplomatic talks to resolve the situation in eastern Ladakh.
The 23rd meeting of the Working Mechanism for Consultation & Coordination on India-China Border Affairs (WMCC) saw India seeking early and complete disengagement from all friction points along the LAC in the western sector and the two sides agreeing to have another round of military talks soon. There was no sign of any breakthrough though with both India and China reiterating their respective positions in separate statements after what was the 9th meeting of WMCC since the Galwan incident last year. The Chinese readout also didn't mention complete disengagement even as it spoke about efforts to settle the remaining issue and to shift from "urgent dispute settlement" to regular border management and control.
They recalled the agreement between foreign minister S Jaishankar and his counterpart Wang Yi during their meeting in September in Dushanbe that military and diplomatic officials of the two sides should continue their discussions to resolve the remaining issues along the LAC in eastern Ladakh. Accordingly, India said in its readout, the two sides had candid and in-depth discussions on the situation along the LAC in western sector of India-China border areas and also reviewed the developments since the last meeting of the senior commanders of both sides last month.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
Can we crowdfund for some face-maalish for our commanders? after 23 rounds of talks, their jaws must be sore as hell!
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
ToIet and other outlets are reporting of a 2nd village along the LAC
Second Chinese village along Arunachal border: Satellite images
Arunachal: China Builds Second Border Village In Indian Territory Under Its Illegal Occupation
Second Chinese village along Arunachal border: Satellite images
from Swarajya:The new enclave of 60 buildings in the Shi Yomi district, has come up “six km inside” the territory claimed by India “in the region between the LAC and the International Boundary shown on Indian maps, as per NDTV, which accessed the satelllite images.
Arunachal: China Builds Second Border Village In Indian Territory Under Its Illegal Occupation
Commenting on the issue, the Indian Army has said that the new settlement is located north of the Line of Actual Control.
''The location corresponding to the coordinates mentioned in your query lies to the North of LAC (Line of Actual Control) in Chinese territory," the Indian Army said in response to NDTV's query.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
You say this but have you even looked at the data? This is what the COAS said just recently.Prem Kumar wrote:PM Modi planned handover of the 1st LCH to the IAF on Nov 19, is a very good signal. Its one of the 2 LCHs that's already flying with the IAF in Ladakh for over a year.
Plus the Vice Chief recently flew in it in Ladakh. So, all these should hopefully translate to orders soon.
RM Kadi Ninda isn't the same caliber as Parikkar. For good or for bad, Modi's intervention/control is needed on most topics of governance. Its sorely needed in the area of Defense. Very few ministries can operate with competence independently (Piyush Goyal and Gadkari are a couple of exceptions that come to mind). For everything else, Modi is needed. He needs to intervene and get this Atmanirbhar Defense Mass-Induction plan in place and drive it on a war-footing (like how he drove Jan Dhan, Ayushman Bharat, Jal Jeevan etc).
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/army-co ... army-chief"Over the last year, powers were delegated to the services to carry out certain fast-track procurements under the provisions which exist in the Defence acquisition procedure or the DAP... We were able to conclude 118 contracts, worth more than Rs 16,000 crore, in a period of just 12 to 15 months, with delivery periods of one year from the signing of the contracts," the Chief of Army Staff told the gathering.
"Such a large volume has never been done in a year, year and a half period," Army Chief General Naravane said at the event.
The Army Chief also revealed that a large share of these contracts has been awarded to the Indian defence industry.
"A majority of this, more than 55 per cent of this, is for indigenous contracts and indigenous content. More than 50 per cent of that has gone to MSMEs [Micro, Small & Medium Enterprises] (sic)," the Army Chief said.
"This has enthused our local industry, especially the MSMEs, who know that they also have a chance, even against bigger and more established players, to make an inroad into the defence industry. This has definitely been a game changer. If that can become the normal way of functioning, that would be to our advantage as far as speeding up our capability development is concerned," General Naravane added.
Amid tensions along the Line of Actual Control, the government had delegated powers to the three services last year to carry out fast-track procurements to meet emergency operational requirements.
"The DAC [Defence Acquisition Council] delegated the powers for progressing urgent capital acquisition cases up to Rs 300 crore to the Armed Forces to meet their emergent operational requirements. This will shrink the procurement timelines and ensure placement of orders within six months and commencement of deliveries within one year," the Ministry of Defence said on 15 July 2020, a month after the clashes in Galwan.
And if you want to compare it to previous times, lets look at this report from 2020.
In short, the man whom you are contemptuously dismissive of, has been part of a process wherein current procurement is 45% greater than the previous benchmark established earlier, without CV or the atmanirbhar bharat directive (many of the local orders were based on eval during CV) but far more value as well. Obviously this has to do with the larger budget too, but the numbers do speak of the effort put in. In fact the previous emergency orders were more under replenishing the WWR from established suppliers and were hence easier to process. Whereas a lot of the current orders have gone for new eqpt (which necessitates a much more comprehensive process including trials) but we've pulled it off (https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/how- ... -l-70-guns).New Delhi: The armed forces are currently working on over 100 emergency procurement contracts — with a ceiling of Rs 500 crore each — in the wake of tensions with China along the Line of Actual Control (LAC).
This procurement could easily eclipse the Rs 11,000 crore worth of contracts inked after the Uri terror attack in 2016, ThePrint has learnt.
Government sources told ThePrint that there will be no shortage of funds for the armed forces, and any additional funds that may be needed will be provided.
The contracts being pursued include those under capital budget. Defence Minister Rajnath Singh had, on 15 July, given the go-ahead with Rs 300 crore worth of capital acquisitions to meet emergent operational requirements.
As reported earlier, the armed forces are on a shopping spree and the Army is in the process of procuring armour-piercing fin-stabilised discarding sabot (APFSDS) ammunition fired by the T-72 and T-90 main battle tanks, additional Heron drones, Man Portable Air Defence System (MANPADS), mines and high altitude clothing, among other things.
Sources said the Army alone is pursuing 100 contracts, both under revenue and capital budget heads.
“These contracts have an upper ceiling of Rs 500 crore. This does not mean that all contracts are for Rs 500 crore. Some could be as less as Rs 25 crore while some would be closer to the ceiling,” a source explained.
One of the sources cited above said that between January 2014 and October 2016, 17 Army contracts were inked under emergency procurement by the Ministry of Defence, totalling Rs 400 crore.
Between October 2016 and December 2016, the Army alone inked contracts worth about Rs 11,000 crore under emergency procurement provisions. These dealt with operational requirements like arms, ammunition, radars and mines, among other things.
As does the fact some 55% has gone to local industry. When he saw long gestation processes were impacting procurement he gave the services significant leeway, yet ensured Atmanirbhar bharat was not ignored. Obviously the overall budget remains subject to our fiscal challenges so we are unable to order as many local platforms as we wish, but that will occur as committed liabilities free up and next fiscal's budget kicks in.
All this done during the Covid era with everything stretched and the RM being no youngster either.
Lets not shoot opinions first without considering the gravity of such comments on people's morale and how seriously posts on the forum are taken by lurkers and others.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
The Chinis are waiting for a 2024 gov change, where they can return to the good old "ignore border issues for trade" and "non-alignment".
I hope more such news of PLA grabbing this, grabbing that come along. Need to make it difficult for any party in power to normalise the relation.
It is key for us to have China as an adversary. It is not about some village on remote border.
I hope more such news of PLA grabbing this, grabbing that come along. Need to make it difficult for any party in power to normalise the relation.
It is key for us to have China as an adversary. It is not about some village on remote border.
Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2
You can't fight bias with facts. No wonder people all over the world say Forum has detiorated!