Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 15 Jan 2022 22:22

Admiral sir I know this is the military thread, but there are strong buzzes about desh having to pay off external debts to the tune of 250+ billion this year.

Is that the case and perhaps a contributing reason for the scaling back of import military purchases...

sankum · Post by **sankum** » 15 Jan 2022 23:10

12 Su 30 and 36 Rafale order by 2025 or 50 Su 30 is the likely choice.
I will prefer the first one to maintain sq strength.

John · Post by **John** » 16 Jan 2022 01:31

Rakesh wrote:
Manish_P wrote:X-Post from the Light Utility Helicopter thread...

Wonder if Putin's visit was to ensure us giving the go ahead for more S-400 systems (or S-550) in lieu of the canceled Kamovs.
The December meet between Modi and Putin will surely have involved discussions over additional S-400 (or perhaps S-500) units. Foreign procurements are usually bought in batches. Media reports were abuzz with rumours of Russia offering the S-500. Lets see what happens.

Ukraine-Russia standoff is best thing to happen to our domestic industry as highly unlikely we will announce any deal with Russia till situation calms down.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 16 Jan 2022 10:00

Mig29 was a good buy but its most likely gone because russians probably asked too much for it. They tried overplaying their hand.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 16 Jan 2022 10:35

YashG wrote:Mig29 was a good buy but its most likely gone because russians probably asked too much for it. They tried overplaying their hand.

Or perhaps the MOD felt that with additional MK1A orders could be placed instead of additional mig 29s.

Considering that the original mig29s will be gone by late 30s or early 40s. MK1A would be cheaper and provide the similar capacity to the mig29. While being more sustainable in service till 2060s.

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 16 Jan 2022 10:39

Looks like even the amrikans were being told....even your items will also be on our negative list for imports. Balancing with the russians.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 16 Jan 2022 13:55

YashG wrote:Mig29 was a good buy but its most likely gone because russians probably asked too much for it. They tried overplaying their hand.

Agree...
It was a good bargain actually... We'd have got a full squadron for a low price within a short time...
As of now MIG29 has been put only in deferment list... Let's see...

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jan 2022 19:21

ashthor wrote:Looks like even the amrikans were being told....even your items will also be on our negative list for imports. Balancing with the russians.

Re-jigging imports Sirjee.

There are rumours of additional CH-47s coming + some other kit for Indian Naval Aviation (please check out that thread). The CH-47 is doing great work for the Indian Army by bringing in much needed supplies to the Indo-China border. Far better than the Mi-26 (which are presently mothballed if I am not mistaken). The C-17 and C-130 are also doing fabulous work. Nobody moves men & material like the Khan.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jan 2022 19:30

LakshmanPST wrote:
YashG wrote:Mig29 was a good buy but its most likely gone because russians probably asked too much for it. They tried overplaying their hand.
Agree...
It was a good bargain actually... We'd have got a full squadron for a low price within a short time...
As of now MIG29 has been put only in deferment list... Let's see...

Think long term (post 2030s) when these 21 MiG-29s will still be in service and they will have to be maintained. Same situation that the IAF is facing with the Mirage 2000. They are having to source M2K platforms (to use as Christmas trees), just to keep the three units flying. With the M2K, at least the spares will be of decent quality. Not so with the MiG-29. Acquiring MiG-21 spares during the early 1990s cost the IAF dearly.

The Su-30 will have a much better future with the IAF (Super Sukhoi upgrade) and the HAL Rambha line should churn out Su-30MKIs quicker than the three year timeframe for those 21 MiG-29s to arrive from Russia. At least with HAL, there will be a greater degree of QC on those 50 airframes versus zero QC on those 21 MiG-29 airframes.

The decks are likely being cleared for additional Rafales as well. Small order of 36 onlee. No to anything else, including Qatari or UAE M2Ks. At one point, I was eager for additional M2Ks. Future IAF (post mid 2030s) must be Su-30MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jan 2022 19:55

Republic Day 2022: India to witness 'grandest flypast ever' featuring 75 aircraft including 5 Rafale
https://zeenews.india.com/india/republi ... 28567.html
17 Jan 2022

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 17 Jan 2022 21:46

1st S-400 unit to be ready by April, 4 others by 2023

India has begun work on deploying the S-400 Triumf advanced surface-to-air missile defence system, with the first unit to be made operational in April, HT learns.

While the Narendra Modi government remains tight-lipped about the entire project, officials with direct knowledge of the matter have told Hindustan Times that all five units will be deployed in depth areas to tackle the threat from China.

PLA has already deployed two S-400 systems across LAC in Ngari Gar Gunsa (opposite Demchok) and Nyingchi (across Arunachal Pradesh) with the remaining three deployed to tackle the threat from the Indo-Pacific.

HT learns that India has made clear to its close ally US through top diplomatic and security channels that the acquisition of Russian S-400 system was in its national interest as it is faced with a belligerent PLA all along the 3,488km-long LAC.

While India has offered technical solutions so that the S-400 system does not share details on US manufactured military aircraft and helicopters with Russia, it has also decided that all five systems would be deployed to protect India from the mounting military threat from Beijing.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jan 2022 22:37

Rakesh wrote:Republic Day 2022: India to witness 'grandest flypast ever' featuring 75 aircraft including 5 Rafale
https://zeenews.india.com/india/republi ... 28567.html
17 Jan 2022

https://twitter.com/livefist/status/148 ... 73698?s=20 ---> Indian Air Force aircraft participating in the Republic Day fly past on Jan 26, the biggest ever contingent:

konaseema · Post by **konaseema** » 17 Jan 2022 22:56

No Tejas, LCH & LUH? :-(

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Jan 2022 23:10

Rakesh wrote:Think long term (post 2030s) when these 21 MiG-29s will still be in service and they will have to be maintained. Same situation that the IAF is facing with the Mirage 2000. They are having to source M2K platforms (to use as Christmas trees), just to keep the three units flying. With the M2K, at least the spares will be of decent quality. Not so with the MiG-29. Acquiring MiG-21 spares during the early 1990s cost the IAF dearly.
....
The decks are likely being cleared for additional Rafales as well. Small order of 36 onlee. No to anything else, including Qatari or UAE M2Ks. At one point, I was eager for additional M2Ks. Future IAF (post mid 2030s) must be Su-30MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2.

FAF Mirage 2000s will be retired by 2032 ---> viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7625&p=2530987#p2530987

IAF Mirage 2000s are retiring around the same time.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 17 Jan 2022 23:16

konaseema wrote:No Tejas, LCH & LUH? :-(

I'm always depressed by the January 26th parades. It seems like a circus of military hardware from all corners of the world.

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 18 Jan 2022 02:23

Whoever thought that it was a good idea to exclude the lone Indian fighter jet from a flypast marking 75 years of independence needs to have his head examined.

At least half of the displayed hardware in such parades needs to desi. We need to stop glorifying foreign maal.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 18 Jan 2022 05:06

Rakesh wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote: Agree...
It was a good bargain actually... We'd have got a full squadron for a low price within a short time...
As of now MIG29 has been put only in deferment list... Let's see...
Think long term (post 2030s) when these 21 MiG-29s will still be in service and they will have to be maintained. Same situation that the IAF is facing with the Mirage 2000. They are having to source M2K platforms (to use as Christmas trees), just to keep the three units flying. With the M2K, at least the spares will be of decent quality. Not so with the MiG-29. Acquiring MiG-21 spares during the early 1990s cost the IAF dearly.

Admiral sir, Not so sure that m2k spares will be higher quality or easier to procure. I would argue the opposite. For one, the 29 will continue in decent numbers in various forces including the vvs, RuN, Egypt. This is unlike anything like the mig21, which the russkis stopped using ages ago. Not to mention the impact of the FSU break up in the 90s. Otoh the m2k is literally not being used by anyone post 2030. Colossal upgrades cost and still not fully delivered. There is no way we can afford to retire these birds. We are stuck. Better pick up every bloody frame that can be found for spares/cannibalizing.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 18 Jan 2022 05:30

Rakesh wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote: ...
Think long term (post 2030s) when these 21 MiG-29s will still be in service and they will have to be maintained.

I was talking from the short term perspective... I assumed that IAF will retire these ~~not so~~ new jets post 2035 along with all remaining MIG 29s...
I guess they originally planned for this way back in 2019... Until deliveries of additional Rafale and Tejas Mk2 started, which seemed to be a decade away, this looked like a good option to get one full squadron to maintain numbers...

Maybe it was a good decision when they initially thought about it... But with things already delayed, changed geopolitics, Covid and with Russians probably asking for higher price, maybe MOD/IAF decided to drop the idea altogether...

I personally want this deal to go through, provided the price (both for buying them and upgrading them) is cheap and the frames are in good condition... They can be retired sometime between 2035 and 2040 along with remaining MIG29s...

Future IAF (post mid 2030s) must be Su-30MKI, Rafale, Tejas Mk1, Mk1A and Mk2.

No disagreement there...

kancha · Post by **kancha** » 18 Jan 2022 09:16

konaseema wrote:No Tejas, LCH & LUH? :-(

As far as the Tejas is concerned, it has been quite a while since any single engine aircraft participated in the RD flypast. In fact, IIRC, there's been a bird hit incident many years ago with a Jaguar during either the flypast itself or during the rehearsals.

LCH should, in all probability, feature in the very near future once it has been inducted in decent numbers and operationalized. As regards the LUH, I don't see it participating in the flypast due to it too being single engined.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jan 2022 18:52

Helicopter, transport pilots missing in IAF top ranks. It is a fighter-dominated Service
https://theprint.in/opinion/helicopter- ... ce/805786/
18 Jan 2022

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 18 Jan 2022 19:16

Rakesh wrote:Helicopter, transport pilots missing in IAF top ranks. It is a fighter-dominated Service
https://theprint.in/opinion/helicopter- ... ce/805786/
18 Jan 2022

Just like batsman often make it to cricket team captains.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 18 Jan 2022 19:30

YashG wrote:Just like batsman often make it to cricket team captains.

I know zilch about cricket and I am going to get roasted over this, but I guess I asked for it.

I got three words for you ---> Mahendra Singh Dhoni

Running back to my foxhole before you shoot me down with Astra Mk2

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 18 Jan 2022 20:15

Rakesh wrote:
YashG wrote:Just like batsman often make it to cricket team captains.
I know zilch about cricket and I am going to get roasted over this, but I guess I asked for it.

I got three words for you ---> Mahendra Singh Dhoni

Running back to my foxhole before you shoot me down with Astra Mk2 :mrgreen:

MSD's one the of the best if not the best middle order batsmen in cricket so yeah..

Anyway coming back to IAF it is a little disappointing when promotions and senior leadership start coming from the same specific sector.

Leads to two major issues.. First a lack of diversity and creativity at the senior leadership level since all of them are from the same background and have similar inherent biases. This can especially ring true in prioritizing acquisition budget, strategies etc

Secondly it creates an unwritten rule that serving as helo or transport pilots isn't as desirable and as a result you may not get the best or most ambitious ones willing to take that route any more.

Army faces the same issue in being dominanted by leadership who spent their careers in CI Ops

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 18 Jan 2022 23:51

konaseema wrote:No Tejas, LCH & LUH? :-(

ManuJ wrote:Whoever thought that it was a good idea to exclude the lone Indian fighter jet from a flypast marking 75 years of independence needs to have his head examined.

I believe that is because single engined aircraft have been excluded from these flypasts and displays since the 1988 Mirage-2000 crash during the IAF anniversary display. You can see in the list that even the helicopters in the display are all twin engined. But the crash itself was a result of pilot error during aerobatics not engine failure.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2022 01:39

Actually nachiket, Tejas flew in the 2017 Republic Day flypast. Here is a video....

Delhi is notorious for birds (because of the abattoirs in the vicinity of the NCR) and it depends on what the conditions are. Usually horrible, perhaps 2017 was a bit of a relief. I have seen many a Republic Day videos and when the announcers state a formation of aircraft are coming, the camera pans to the sky and you see a flock of birds flying past the camera frame

The Mirage 2000 is also excluded from the list from this year's fly past. A flame out would be catastrophic for the crowds below and if the pilot manages to successfully evade the crowds, he will pay for it with his life. If the Tejas crashes, expect the usual noise from the import pasands in the media. Best avoided. This is one optics I would rather not have the Tejas face.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2022 01:57

We have all seen this video from 2019. Superimpose this video over Rajpath on Jan 26. Not fun.

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 19 Jan 2022 02:36

Rakesh wrote:
YashG wrote:Just like batsman often make it to cricket team captains.
I know zilch about cricket and I am going to get roasted over this, but I guess I asked for it.

I got three words for you ---> Mahendra Singh Dhoni

Running back to my foxhole before you shoot me down with Astra Mk2

Asking to be shot down by a2a thats not yet available is not asking for much

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 19 Jan 2022 02:42

Yes the 2017 Tejas inclusion in flypast was an exception. I had forgotten about it. But that single engine rule seems to have been applied at all other times. Pretty sure the IAF would not have excluded their darling M2k for 30+ years without that rule in place.

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 19 Jan 2022 06:12

YashG wrote:
Rakesh wrote: I know zilch about cricket and I am going to get roasted over this, but I guess I asked for it.

I got three words for you ---> Mahendra Singh Dhoni

Running back to my foxhole before you shoot me down with Astra Mk2
Asking to be shot down by a2a thats not yet available is not asking for much

Kapil Dev is a Bowler, an allrounder, but primarily a bowler

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 19 Jan 2022 14:05

Noob question (no insinuation or prejudice). Is the same no single engine in flyover parade rule applied by other nations - US, UK, France?

I remember seeing videos of F16s, Hawks and Mirages in flypasts in the US, UK and French parades..

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 19 Jan 2022 14:17

The twin engine rule was created following a bird hit on a hunter sometime in the mid 80s (1984?).

Following which, other than the 11 ship Mig 29 flypast in it's year of induction. No other combat aircraft flypast took place till the mid 90s.

After which only multi engine jets participate in the fly past.

It is purely a safety related concern.

Prior to the bird hit on the hunter, IAF used all combat aircrafts in it's inventory.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Jan 2022 14:58

What would be really awesome is if PM Modi declares that next year's Republic Day parade & each year's parade subsequent to that, will feature only Indian weapons. It really irks me to see imported maal being bandied about with pride. What's there to be proud of?

Yes, it will take us a decade to be truly independent. But the PM should signal intent & the vision we are moving towards

Time to Atmanirbhar our R-Day!

Manish_P · Post by **Manish_P** » 19 Jan 2022 15:06

Pratyush wrote:The twin engine rule was created following a bird hit on a hunter sometime in the mid 80s (1984?).

Following which, other than the 11 ship Mig 29 flypast in it's year of induction. No other combat aircraft flypast took place till the mid 90s.

After which only multi engine jets participate in the fly past.

It is purely a safety related concern.

Prior to the bird hit on the hunter, IAF used all combat aircrafts in it's inventory.

Thanks for the info

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 19 Jan 2022 22:12

nachiket wrote:Yes the 2017 Tejas inclusion in flypast was an exception. I had forgotten about it. But that single engine rule seems to have been applied at all other times. Pretty sure the IAF would not have excluded their darling M2k for 30+ years without that rule in place.

M2K is not flying in this year's Republic Day as well. Those birds are a pain.

Barath · Post by **Barath** » 20 Jan 2022 17:10

nachiket wrote:Yes the 2017 Tejas inclusion in flypast was an exception. I had forgotten about it. But that single engine rule seems to have been applied at all other times. Pretty sure the IAF would not have excluded their darling M2k for 30+ years without that rule in place.

3 x Tejas flying past in 2017 Republic Day
https://youtu.be/T4eibXdKDX0?t=332 Alternate : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JaYGMvHN9rE

https://www.indiatoday.in/fyi/story/sur ... 2019-02-19
Surya Kiran Aerobatic Team formation of nine-aircraft during the Independence Day fly-past over the Red Fort in 1998 - Single Engine Jet Kiran here. (they fly single engine jet Hawk now). Possibly at other times

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TgSAi6wGQL8
Supposedly single Engine Mirage 2000 - Possibly 2011. Not sure about this one.

https://www.deccanchronicle.com/150126/ ... de-after-3
Back in 1984, the Navy flew single engine Sea harrier past Rajpath

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 21 Jan 2022 01:50

I understand the general rule of no-single-engine aircraft, but it has been bypassed in the past for special circumstances.
The grand fly-past on the occasion of 75 years of independence merits the home-grown Tejas imho.
There are ways of reducing probability of bird hit, by imposing a higher height limit on single-engine aircraft for example.

mody · Post by **mody** » 21 Jan 2022 16:20

I still hope that MoD/IAF increase the order for Tejas-MK1A by another 2 squadrons to now compensate for the no-go on the Mig-29 deal. The mandate
should be to increase the production rate upto 24 aircrafts per annum, so that the timeline for the completion of the MK1A production run remains the same.
That along with a repeat order for 36 Rafael F4.1 and IAF should be good to go untill the Tejas MK2 enters production.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 21 Jan 2022 17:12

@mody,

If we expect order for another batch of rafale in this year, why it can't be for F3R(I)?
Every billions of $$$ saved are useful for our indigenous programs. Then why to order F4 version. Let it be part of MLU.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 21 Jan 2022 17:55

Because in case of MLU of a French platform. They will charge the price of a new built aircraft.

So better to pay for the most advanced varient form the get go.

hemant_sai · Post by **hemant_sai** » 22 Jan 2022 00:51

if we will be ready to pay or get exploited for MLU , it will indicate failure of our desi platforms.
Remember we expect Tejas Mk2 to almost match Rafale capabilities and Tedbf to exceed it.
MLU is at least 12-15 years away.

If there are alternatives for us and competition for French maal, you will get better deal.

If you pay more now and starve desi programs, you will definitely pay more in MLU no matter if you get Rafale F5 now.