2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

[venkat_kv]

The moron KCR is having total breakdown. He is sh1tting bricks and going berserk abusing Modi like a crazy mad man. Not sure what made this moron lose his marbles.

KCR stayed away from Ramanuja Statue of equality program which he supported, he has been close to Jeeyar swami for years, because Modi inaugurated it instead of himself, and hasn't been invited on to the dias since. Bhagawat, President, VP, BJP state CMs... have all been invited, took the dias and gave hindutva speeches under his nose in HYD. He inaugurated some incomplete stuff in yadagiri to grab limelight but no one noticed.

Essentially he lost the Hindu plank to BJP, muslim plank to Owaisi who is going soft on BJP, Jeeyar swami has gone cold on him and is tight with BJP. I can understand he's screaming as if his marbles are being crushed, they are.

Also wanted to add to what Cyrano Saar has alluded. From a pure political stand point before the 2018 elections for the state legislature, the BJP was considered a marginal player (" operational word being considered"). After the decimation of Congress and a near annihilation of the TDP in Telangana, KCR had no one to oppose him. i believe his party won 80/81 seats out of 120 seats in Assembly polls and Owaisi had his share additionally from old city and Muslim constituencies. He probably felt that no one can challenge him and his hegemony in Telangana. The BJP had won 1 seat in assembly elections. He had lashed out at Hindus before the 2019 elections ( although I don't know why). BJP won 4 Lok sabha seats and probably more if they worked on other constituencies.

Ever since the 2019 Lok Sabha elections its been BJP that has been having yatras, rallies and fighting against the govt inaction - whether its against peacefool expansion and altering demographics or general govt apathy on administrative issues. they won handsomely in the greater Hyderabad Muncipal elections that were once the bastions of TDP and later with defections the TRS held sway.

His second in command Etala Rajendera - former finance minister to telangana was kicked out of the party and after he resigned, he joined BJP to win in his home constituency. It was a high voltage drama as usual but Etala came out with a win. During this election time frame, KCR and his son tried to bring the near dead Congress back to life by giving prominence to its PCC chief Revanth Reddy. The modus operandi was that KTR (KCR's son who is IT minister and panchayat minister also) would challenge Revanth on something, Revanth Reddy would counter challenge and the TRS and KTR would go silent for a few days. then this is repeated with another MLA/MP/Minister from TRS and then after counter from Congress they would go silent, giving rise to memes and sound bites that Congress is countering the TRS while BJP is mostly in comatose. This was to give illusion that Congress is the actual opposition and BJP is not. But all this failed and BJP registered a win with Etala Rajender.

It was after this that KCR has started publicly started attacking BJP and also abusing it. Since he doesn't have many valid points he has gone on the trope of Rafale's and Surgical strikes echoing Congress stand on these issues.

He is trying to play people, sometimes giving statements against Congress earlier and now against BJP. Essentially he doesn't want any strong opposition to him so he is trying to play one party or the other as the opposition and not letting BJP grow. The Congress is facing decimation in its ranks and BJP is trying to fill that space, but with KCR trying to stymie that, he is looking to slow down what is the growth of BJP as natural opposition in the state. hope this helps.

[sajo]

Maharashtra BJP leaders keep repeating this so often, that its not even funny any more.

Maharashtra government will fall after March 10: BJP state president Chandrakant Patil

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 532396.cms

[Cain Marko]

Disallowing girls hijab, especially in junior colleges where there is no real dress code and kids are allowed to wear whatever they please, is BS

The whole case is about wearing hijab in colleges where the management and the CMC have defined a dress code/uniform. Also even in the college where this issue started first, the six girls were NOT wearing hijab in the class rooms. This is not about making the whole of KA or India a Soviet society. The protests are more against one religious minority community introducing their fancy dress norms in every aspect of social life in a pluralist society like India. "Give an inch, then they ask for a mile" - this was what was happening so far.

News reports...
Hijab row: Students seek Karnataka HC's nod to use uniform stole to cover their head
Six girls didn't wear hijab in past, have evidence, claims MLA Report reads.."No Muslim girl was wearing hijab in the classrooms. The CCTV camera footage of 45 days proves this, Raghupathi Bhat said"

Had no idea that this was actually a practice in schools past 10th grade in India. Do these colleges actually require students to wear uniforms or are they just usually in muftis? If not, I'm confused as to what purpose such rules serve in run of the mill pre University colleges and esp. universities. Note that this mushkan kid is actually a second year bcom student. What does getting a college education have to do with wearing a hijab, bindi or whatever? How does such attire detract from education?

But if institutions insist on such practices, hope they are applied equally and that nobody minds if Hindu girls are disallowed bindis or xtians, a cross.

[Cyrano]

Why this urge to equate the fundamentally oppressive and regressive practice of hijab/burqa with bindi which is none of that?

Just because someone claims xyz is a religious practice doesn't automatically make it equal to other religious practices. Some (Bohra muslims in this instance) claim female genital mutilation is an essential religious practice. So will you equate it with hindu practice of ceremonial ear piercing and argue they should be treated equally?

Most schools which have continuous class 1 to class 12, if they have uniform apply it for all classes. When class XI and XII are separated as "pre-univ" or "junior" colleges, most don't impose uniform at 15+ age. A few do. The colleges in focus currently impose uniform.

The students and parents are made aware of college rules and sign a form acknowledging them and agreeing to abide by them at the time of admission. KA education minister showed such forms on TV.

If someone wants to wear hijab even in the class room, there are so many other schools that allow it. These girls are insisting that their school bend rules because they are throwing a (religious) tantrum, suddenly in 2nd year since 31st Dec. CFI/SDPI and other orgs are behind it, using these girls for their own agenda.

And we are arguing hindu girls should give up bindi across the board because there is this stupid agitation for hijab?

[Yagnasri]

AFAIK - This is a Gov of KA educational institution which has some uniform rules. Many schools both state run or private has uniforms even while I was doing by education in AP. But not colleges. But the uniform will be known at the time of admission itself. The student has an option to join or not.

The present thing is a big time drama created by PIF gangs. They are going to end up with egg on their face.

[Ambar]

Many many years ago when i was in school we did not have uniforms past 8th grade. It wasn't uncommon for muslim girls in their teens to come to school wearing burqa and then take it off while they were inside the school. I also remember couple of them kept their hijabs on. That said even back then there were double standards in Christian institutes where hindu students, especially male students who were holding Ayappa vratha were not allowed in the campus if they had any hindu religious symbols/garments. In the last 10 or 12 years for whatever the reason many institutes including graduate and post-graduate colleges have opted for uniforms. A 60+ yr old engineering institute in my area that has both bachelors and masters program implemented unforms for its students few years ago, and the justification was girls had started dressing provocatively (whatever that means!).

It is in the backdrop of this new fashion of uniforms that 6 girls decided to wear a hijab and one college principal went flying off the handle. Some seem to be in the belief that hindus are out in the streets protesting against hijabis, i can assure you from ground zero that is not the case ! Most hindus , including those from BJP are indifferent to this whole hijab controversy . While there isnt much sympathy for ever increasing "in the face" islamism in the region, there isnt much support for anti-hijab movement either in a city where on any given day half the crowd in malls/restaurants wear full burqas.

Khangress and its supporters wanted to use this controversy to create another anti-CAA like issue hoping it would rally their beloved M-voter block in the current elections, but now they are worried about a possible counter-polarization and consolidation of hindu votes in favor of BJP and hence the backtracking in the recently concluded KPCC meeting in Bangalore.

[Sachin]

but now they are worried about a possible counter-polarization and consolidation of hindu votes in favor of BJP and hence the backtracking in the recently concluded KPCC meeting in Bangalore.

Saar, any news reports on the same? Only thing I noticed (on twitter) is that one of the petitioners wants the hearing of the case to be postponed to avoid "communal issues during election times" . Apart from that Khangress do not seem to have made any major changes in their strategy. And DK Shivakumar last week mentioned about students having to follow uniform/dress code in college.

[Cyrano]

KA HC bench starts hearing at 2:30PM. We will know then if they will entertain the plea?

Seems frivolous to me. Election schedule was known when the case was filed. Are they suggesting HC will not be able to deal with the case appropriately because elections are happening?

If they are so concerned for the country, they can withdraw the case.

Hope the plea will be dismissed with a fine for contempt of court.

[madhu]

Hope the plea will be dismissed with a fine for contempt of court.

but muslim girls have started new drama "Karnataka Hijab Row Intensifies as Students Skip School, Exams; Hearing to Continue in HC Today" how is that this is not contempt of court. is it not interfering in court and threating the court in its proceedings?

on one side they say its a choice but in court on day 1 it said it is a must. i still dont know why courts are dragging on this. why cant it say we don't want to corrupt the minds of kids and close the case? afterall this is an moral issue and for moral issues Art25 cannot be applied.

[Ambar]

but now they are worried about a possible counter-polarization and consolidation of hindu votes in favor of BJP and hence the backtracking in the recently concluded KPCC meeting in Bangalore.

Saar, any news reports on the same? Only thing I noticed (on twitter) is that one of the petitioners wants the hearing of the case to be postponed to avoid "communal issues during election times" . Apart from that Khangress do not seem to have made any major changes in their strategy. And DK Shivakumar last week mentioned about students having to follow uniform/dress code in college.

Yes, its on the front page of Udayavani (Manipal edition). In the KPCC meeting under Siddaramiah yesterday, the Congress legislative committee decided NOT to raise the topic of hijab in the next assembly session pending court decision. I think they sensed their effort to blow up this hijab row had begun to polarize hindus, and with Karnataka going to polls next year with Congress most likely to win they don't want to jeopardize their chances.

[chetak]

KA HC bench starts hearing at 2:30PM. We will know then if they will entertain the plea?

Seems frivolous to me. Election schedule was known when the case was filed. Are they suggesting HC will not be able to deal with the case appropriately because elections are happening?

If they are so concerned for the country, they can withdraw the case.

Hope the plea will be dismissed with a fine for contempt of court.

what they are fearing is the consolidation of votes due to the bad publicity.

they are not as popular or as confident as the project themselves to be.

people have had more than enough of their frequent tantrums and subversions

[Cain Marko]

Why this urge to equate the fundamentally oppressive and regressive practice of hijab/burqa with bindi which is none of that?

Just because someone claims xyz is a religious practice doesn't automatically make it equal to other religious practices. Some (Bohra muslims in this instance) claim female genital mutilation is an essential religious practice. So will you equate it with hindu practice of ceremonial ear piercing and argue they should be treated equally?

Most schools which have continuous class 1 to class 12, if they have uniform apply it for all classes. When class XI and XII are separated as "pre-univ" or "junior" colleges, most don't impose uniform at 15+ age. A few do. The colleges in focus currently impose uniform.

The students and parents are made aware of college rules and sign a form acknowledging them and agreeing to abide by them at the time of admission. KA education minister showed such forms on TV.

If someone wants to wear hijab even in the class room, there are so many other schools that allow it. These girls are insisting that their school bend rules because they are throwing a (religious) tantrum, suddenly in 2nd year since 31st Dec. CFI/SDPI and other orgs are behind it, using these girls for their own agenda.

And we are arguing hindu girls should give up bindi across the board because there is this stupid agitation for hijab?

Like I said, so long as the rules are evenly applied, its all good. As for whether you or I think something is less or more repressive, that hardly matters. What matters is if the women who want to wear said attire think it so (or not). They're adults, let them make the decision.

I think such rules are stupid in higher education, and that any practitioners of any religious tradition should be allowed to follow it unless it disturbs others. This I think is more in tune with the Indian ethos. But then again, what I think hardly matters. What does matter is that irrespective of the merit of the rule, it should be applied evenly.

[Cyrano]

No matter how the case is decided, Hiindus have nothing to lose.

If the applicant wins, then any practice that can be justified as a religious practice can be followed in secular public institutions, even if their rules disallow it. So if muslim girls can wear hijab in class, others can wear their religious symbols or execute their practices. So no exception for one community.

If the applicant loses, then we are back to status quo. No hijabs when rules disallow it, no saffron gamchas either - which is anyway not a demand.

But court judgements and written opinions can sometimes take unexpected turns. Lets watch how this unfolds...

[Yagnasri]

With due respect sir, by the same argument even Sati is to be allowed. By jumping into fire the lady is not hurting anyone else. Right? We need to take on regressive social practices and stop them. This is a regressive practice. We also do not know if the girls really want to wear it or forced by others to wear it. It is not some comfortable dress and something that makes a fashion statement.

Plus if it is a free choice, then will the muslim society allows free choice not to wear Burkha or Hijab? I seriously doubt it.

[Cain Marko]

Many many years ago when i was in school we did not have uniforms past 8th grade. It wasn't uncommon for muslim girls in their teens to come to school wearing burqa and then take it off while they were inside the school. I also remember couple of them kept their hijabs on. That said even back then there were double standards in Christian institutes where hindu students, especially male students who were holding Ayappa vratha were not allowed in the campus if they had any hindu religious symbols/garments. In the last 10 or 12 years for whatever the reason many institutes including graduate and post-graduate colleges have opted for uniforms. A 60+ yr old engineering institute in my area that has both bachelors and masters program implemented unforms for its students few years ago, and the justification was girls had started dressing provocatively (whatever that means!).

It is in the backdrop of this new fashion of uniforms that 6 girls decided to wear a hijab and one college principal went flying off the handle. Some seem to be in the belief that hindus are out in the streets protesting against hijabis, i can assure you from ground zero that is not the case ! Most hindus , including those from BJP are indifferent to this whole hijab controversy . While there isnt much sympathy for ever increasing "in the face" islamism in the region, there isnt much support for anti-hijab movement either in a city where on any given day half the crowd in malls/restaurants wear full burqas.

Khangress and its supporters wanted to use this controversy to create another anti-CAA like issue hoping it would rally their beloved M-voter block in the current elections, but now they are worried about a possible counter-polarization and consolidation of hindu votes in favor of BJP and hence the backtracking in the recently concluded KPCC meeting in Bangalore.

Interesting. That the thing is a bif ploy is not surprising, esp. So close to elections. Hope it blows in there face.

But there are certain questions/issues that your post raises....
1. Who do you think were the jokers hassling the mushkan kid when she got on campus? That kind of naareybaazi and gherao seems well planned and puts all things Hindu in a very poor light.
2. Didn't know that higher Ed institutions were moving towards uniforms as an issue of modesty. But that is kinda understandable. Indians, both Hindus and Muslims, do not easily share the western ethos of exposing the female body. And this is despite the "enlightened" western pov media channels try to push.

Actually it almost seems like there is some common ground between Hindus and Muslims when it comes to this issue.

[chetak]

With due respect sir, by the same argument even Sati is to be allowed. By jumping into fire the lady is not hurting anyone else. Right? We need to take on regressive social practices and stop them. This is a regressive practice. We also do not know if the girls really want to wear it or forced by others to wear it. It is not some comfortable dress and something that makes a fashion statement.

Plus if it is a free choice, then will the muslim society allows free choice not to wear Burkha or Hijab? I seriously doubt it.

they are hell bent on carving out a separate identity for themselves.

An identity differentiated by visuals, per branding practices, the main components of visual identity are logo, color, typography, and images, along with distinct food habits, violently and rigidly enforced religious dominance and above all, the frequent resorting to violence and bloodshed to buttress their points of view.

wasn't that exactly how pukestan-1 was midwifed.

They are now consciously targeting the pre teen and teen markets and many a foolish sickular Hindu will also fall into this trap

What is happening now is the conception of pukestan-2 and beyond and sadly the discussion is still on about "social practices" and personal liberty and choice.

The shatru is at the gates while the barricaded and unconcerned populace is arguing about which color to paint the gates

[Cyrano]

Cain Marko ji,
If the school changed rules mid-year and disallowed something hitherto allowed, the situation would have been totally different. If the issue started with those girls requesting hijab to be allowed and waited for a response from school authorities, then the issue would have evolved differently. What they have done is first violate the uniform code they agreed to in writing, and then demand and agitate that an exception be made since they claim its an essential religious practice. Thats a wholly different position.

The rest of the society naturally sees it as aggressive religious exceptionalism, and is naturally concerned if this is granted today, what else will be demanded in the future based on the precedent set.

A society functions based on negotiated agreements between different people/interests and on the expectation that agreed rules will be followed. When thats unilaterally violated, mistrust is generated. Rules of the society can evolve but with negotiation and reaching accord, and then adherence to those agreements.

What is at stake is not merely a piece of cloth on the head, but if anyone can break an agreed code of conduct and get away with it by agitating - which is a threat of violence. What kind of behaviour will that encourage in the society?

[Cain Marko]

With due respect sir, by the same argument even Sati is to be allowed. By jumping into fire the lady is not hurting anyone else. Right? We need to take on regressive social practices and stop them. This is a regressive practice. We also do not know if the girls really want to wear it or forced by others to wear it. It is not some comfortable dress and something that makes a fashion statement.

Plus if it is a free choice, then will the muslim society allows free choice not to wear Burkha or Hijab? I seriously doubt it.

Sati. Really? Wow. I often hear from stalwart Hindus that this was a non issue blown up by the Brits. In all my life I only heard of one such incident... That of roop kunwar. Id hardly call such rare events a thing that needs reform. But who knows, I could be wrong and maybe the practice has again gained some traction!

But equating that or even fgm with a headscarf is hardly justified. For starters sati or fgm almost always happen without the consent of the victims. Otoh hijab is often worn voluntarily by women. Hell even by men in dusty and hot regions! Esp. The kind that the kid was wearing. It's often a natural outcome of being devoted to your faith. This shouldn't be so hard to understand. But I think Hindus have become so enamoured of western traditions that they are happy to "reform" everything in the name of western enlightened thought. Pity. .

And yes there are plenty of women following such a tradition very willingly. No more or less than Hindu women wearing the bindi or mangalsutra. You might think it oppressive, but they dont. Furthermore, like their Hindu counterparts, a whole bunch of Muslim women never wear it.

[Cain Marko]

Cain Marko ji,
If the school changed rules mid-year and disallowed something hitherto allowed, the situation would have been totally different. If the issue started with those girls requesting hijab to be allowed and waited for a response from school authorities, then the issue would have evolved differently. What they have done is first violate the uniform code they agreed to in writing, and then demand and agitate that an exception be made since they claim its an essential religious practice. Thats a wholly different position.

The rest of the society naturally sees it as aggressive religious exceptionalism, and is naturally concerned if this is granted today, what else will be demanded in the future based on the precedent set.

A society functions based on negotiated agreements between different people/interests and on the expectation that agreed rules will be followed. When thats unilaterally violated, mistrust is generated. Rules of the society can evolve but with negotiation and reaching accord, and then adherence to those agreements.

What is at stake is not merely a piece of cloth on the head, but if anyone can break an agreed code of conduct and get away with it by agitating - which is a threat of violence. What kind of behaviour will that encourage in the society?

I don't disagree with what you say in principle, Cyranoji. If such a contract had been signed, it should be observed, no exceptions.
But I do think that the rule is ridiculous and that people of all faiths, esp. adults should be allowed to display such symbols in their attire freely. Of course it's a different matter if this disrupts the functioning of the institution or causes physical violence to others. But I simply don't see hijabi or bindi clad girls causing such a havoc. I for one have no issues with the Digambar Jain or naked fakir walking nonchalantly on Indian streets. An occasional college visit by such people should be part of the curriculum. It's what makes India special. Jmpov of course.

[Sachin]

This I think is more in tune with the Indian ethos. But then again, what I think hardly matters. What does matter is that irrespective of the merit of the rule, it should be applied evenly.

The hijabi's advocate also talked about some thing in similar lines of the bolded part. Basically bend over backwards and accomodate every demand; because Indian ethos have always been bending over backwards, and also crawl when asked to bend. This so called "ethos" have now been taken for granted. I come from a state where there is significant Muslim and X'ian population. Till around 2005; Muslim girls at the maximum covered their head with their own shawls. Other wise dress code was same. Muslim boys dressed the same way as other boys. They were skull caps etc when going for prayers. After that there was the rampant Arab-isation; and that is now getting more uglier. There is a well entrenched group in India who wants the Arab way of life to be enforced even in other wise truely secular areas of India. That can be in food (halal or boycott the hotels, allow hijab/burqa or else avoid that place or throw tantrums etc.).

1. Who do you think were the jokers hassling the mushkan kid when she got on campus? That kind of naareybaazi and gherao seems well planned and puts all things Hindu in a very poor light.

The Hindus have been shown in poor light even before . Nothing new here. The secular & liberal agenda is to introduce more Islamisation in society using secularism. The only way perhaps Hindus would NOT be shown in poor light would be when they line up for conversion . The kind of nareeybaazi and gherao have happened before, and these are like common incidents in protests/strikes in India. Infact the protest scheme of Gherao itself was introduced in India by the communists/comrades.

Mean while at Karnataka High Court today. Only Adv. Kamat seems to be arguing (today as well).

[madhu]

No matter how the case is decided, Hiindus have nothing to lose

I respectfully disagree with you sir. The case is weather hijab can be allowed or not. if it is allowed then only hijab will be allowed but not other attires. i wish the AG gives the same statement and tell to court that we agree only thing is allow naked babas, black cloth ayappa devoties, half nacked brahmachry boys white clothed nuns. The full uniform will be a joke. Do we want to build the society on basis of religion or we want to bring the students under secular values. forget about it there was no nation wide condemnation when mangalsutra were asked to removed for exams.

But the argument will not go the way that all religious attires can be allowed. Hack for three days I see only Kamath or people from hijabside talking. He is sighing rulings of Canada, England etc. I hope he will not bring Pakistan and Saudi ruling too. I am surprised that atlease 18K viewers are there. I am surprised that there are so many people on YouTube.

[LakshmanPST]

OT:- It is already February 2022 and we're still in 2021...

[Cyrano]

I don't disagree with what you say in principle, Cyranoji. If such a contract had been signed, it should be observed, no exceptions.

Thats whats not happening.

I didn't equate fgm with hijab. Quite the contrary.

Note that in India Hindu code bills where passed since 1950 which regulated, reformed various social aspects of Hindus. But nothing of that sort has happened with muslims. Muslim Personal Law is whatever AIMPLB decides it to be based on whatever source/practice/opinion/whim that come up with at any point of time. Nothing is even codified by them since all these years.

So the Hindu-Muslim dynamic in Indian society is based on one side playing by clearly written rules vs other side playing by unwritten arbitrary rules they are constitutionally empowered to do. Therefore any claim by muslims regarding a secular public resource/institution will be seen with wariness and mistrust by hindus. Instances such as this hijab agitation only exacerbate the mistrust and feeling of unequal treatment and generate reactions like orange gamcha wearing groups counter agitating. They are not just reacting to hijab demand, but this aggressive way of trying to bend a secular setup in their favour, arbitrarily.

The complainants are trying to back off since the whole episode has put into sharp focus this fundamental inequality in a society that claims to run on principles of equality and secularism, threatening the unaccountable freedoms they have been enjoying.

[Sachin]

What they have done is first violate the uniform code they agreed to in writing, and then demand and agitate that an exception be made since they claim its an essential religious practice. Thats a wholly different position.

But I do think that the rule is ridiculous and that people of all faiths, esp. adults should be allowed to display such symbols in their attire freely.

Today there is an interesting piece of news in Deccan Herald (Link). I am sharing the excerpts.
“No Muslim girl was wearing hijab in the classrooms. The CCTV camera footage of 45 days proves this,” Bhat told reporters. He said that the proof would be shared with the Karnataka High Court, which is currently hearing a petition filed by six students.
...
Shilpa, a PU student, told reporters, “The students do not want to sacrifice their future because of the problem created by six students. The six students have been my classmates. They were not wearing hijab inside the classrooms before. We had offline classes just for three months in this academic year. They cooked stories that they wore hijab in the past too.”


Note the above. The six girls never wore hijabs all this while, the classes were also done online all except three months. Out of the blue moon; they get an idea to become extra religious and then start demanding rights to make changes in the uniform pattern. The said establishment had a dress code in place for last 25 odd years. So people joined the college after knowing the rules and dress code. Joining the establishment, then demanding special favours (how ever simple it might look) at an opportune movement do not show such groups as ethical or honest groups in the first place. To put it plain and simple, all this is just small bricks in Islamising the country. In the neighbouring state of Kerala there was this craze for Halal certifications for restaurants. The excuse was that Halal only meant the food was clean. Other requirements such as using specific prayers, or the religion of butchers etc. were hidden.

What is at stake is not merely a piece of cloth on the head, but if anyone can break an agreed code of conduct and get away with it by agitating - which is a threat of violence.

Exactly. And the current reaction from Hindu organisations seems to be keeping this in mind. Because I am sure for ages, Hindus have seen Muslim women covering their heads with their duppatts & sari pallus etc.

[chetak]

why do Indian jehadis want the Hijab when jehadi states themselves want burka and hijab banned.

Egypt, Saudi, Iraq, Afghanistan, Tunisia, UAE, Syria, Algeria and a host of other Muslim nations want the Burqa and Hijab to be banned but here in India they have a protest asking for the Hijab

next step will be the burka in public institutions as a matter of right, followed by separate seats on busses and trains, segregated sections on Indian aircraft and theatres

this is what we all forget

Gandhi asked Liaquat Ali to give Muslim community's List of demands...

Then Liaquat Ali said This Is Our Latest Demand not the Last demand..

Yahi Model Chal Raha Hai..

[Cain Marko]

This I think is more in tune with the Indian ethos. But then again, what I think hardly matters. What does matter is that irrespective of the merit of the rule, it should be applied evenly.

The hijabi's advocate also talked about some thing in similar lines of the bolded part. Basically bend over backwards and accomodate every demand; because Indian ethos have always been bending over backwards, and also crawl when asked to bend. This so called "ethos" have now been taken for granted. I come from a state where there is significant Muslim and X'ian population. Till around 2005; Muslim girls at the maximum covered their head with their own shawls. Other wise dress code was same. Muslim boys dressed the same way as other boys. They were skull caps etc when going for prayers. After that there was the rampant Arab-isation; and that is now getting more uglier. There is a well entrenched group in India who wants the Arab way of life to be enforced even in other wise truely secular areas of India. That can be in food (halal or boycott the hotels, allow hijab/burqa or else avoid that place or throw tantrums etc.).

Err. I think you need to reread what I wrote. I clearly stated that rules should be applied equally... For hijab or bindi. Does that bother you?
And Care to elaborate a bit more on what you mean by arabization? As far as halal food goes, most butchers in India traditionally were Muslims. So if you were enjoying biryani pre2005, it was likely to be quite halal.

The Hindus have been shown in poor light even before . Nothing new here. The secular & liberal agenda is to introduce more Islamisation in society using secularism. The only way perhaps Hindus would NOT be shown in poor light would be when they line up for conversion . The kind of nareeybaazi and gherao have happened before, and these are like common incidents in protests/strikes in India. Infact the protest scheme of Gherao itself was introduced in India by the communists/comrades.

Mean while at Karnataka High Court today. Only Adv. Kamat seems to be arguing (today as well).

[/quote]
Are you actually trying to justify the thugs who harassed that girl? Commies did it first, so now so called Hindus can do whatever they please?

[Cyrano]

Madhu ji, your apprehensions are just that, apprehensions. The state's counsel has not yet argued, it will be interesting to see how they will play it. The significant degree of public attention is a good thing to put pressure on the govt to strongly defend its case, isn't it ?

[Cain Marko]

[
Today there is an interesting piece of news in Deccan Herald (Link). I am sharing the excerpts.
“No Muslim girl was wearing hijab in the classrooms. The CCTV camera footage of 45 days proves this,” Bhat told reporters. He said that the proof would be shared with the Karnataka High Court, which is currently hearing a petition filed by six students.
...
Shilpa, a PU student, told reporters, “The students do not want to sacrifice their future because of the problem created by six students. The six students have been my classmates. They were not wearing hijab inside the classrooms before. We had offline classes just for three months in this academic year. They cooked stories that they wore hijab in the past too.”


Note the above. The six girls never wore hijabs all this while, the classes were also done online all except three months.

I'm sorry but that's not what the girl is saying on multiple interviews on Tv.
https://youtu.be/E9NAAVXtP2w
She is absolutely clear that this has been her dress for a long time and the confrontation just started suddenly. Who to believe? Let the courts decide.

[Cyrano]

"Are you actually trying to justify the thugs who harassed that girl?"

Err... Please watch that video again saar, she parked her scooter in the school premises at the extreme end of the available space, came clad in a black burqa head toe, not just uniform + hijab, walked close to the saffron wearing protestors - which indicates she was looking for a confrontation, shouts "alla hoo akbar" repeatedly as provocation. No one actually surrounded her, or even got close enough to touch her. When she walked away from there no one chased her or made her feel insecure, so much for "thugs". She screams "alla hoo" again into waiting cameras.

Where is "harassment" here? I would bet if the religions were reversed, lone hindu girl against a group of muslim boys, things would transpire differently. In fact, when another procession of burqa clad girls where marching past hindu youth elsewhere, muslim boys along with them pelted stones and a hindu girl got injured.

Please dont spin too much, the ball will go wide.

[Cain Marko]

I don't disagree with what you say in principle, Cyranoji. If such a contract had been signed, it should be observed, no exceptions.

Thats whats not happening.

I didn't equate fgm with hijab. Quite the contrary.

Note that in India Hindu code bills where passed since 1950 which regulated, reformed various social aspects of Hindus. But nothing of that sort has happened with muslims. Muslim Personal Law is whatever AIMPLB decides it to be based on whatever source/practice/opinion/whim that come up with at any point of time. Nothing is even codified by them since all these years.

So the Hindu-Muslim dynamic in Indian society is based on one side playing by clearly written rules vs other side playing by unwritten arbitrary rules they are constitutionally empowered to do. Therefore any claim by muslims regarding a secular public resource/institution will be seen with wariness and mistrust by hindus. Instances such as this hijab agitation only exacerbate the mistrust and feeling of unequal treatment and generate reactions like orange gamcha wearing groups counter agitating. They are not just reacting to hijab demand, but this aggressive way of trying to bend a secular setup in their favour, arbitrarily.

The complainants are trying to back off since the whole episode has put into sharp focus this fundamental inequality in a society that claims to run on principles of equality and secularism, threatening the unaccountable freedoms they have been enjoying.

If you are pointing to a UCC, I can see your point. But frankly the personal law thing is the fault of Hindus. Why were they so keen to let go off their own traditions, and temples, hainji? Who the hell stopped then from practicing polygamy/androgyny and producing large numbers of kids? The Brits said it's bad, so we accept it?
Well trained macaulay minds on full display. The Muslims had more pride in their faith and stood by it. Hindus too should have kept theirs. reform would happen organically but it would have kept indic traditions well protected. otoh... We chose the edumacated way wonlee.
What's that they say about dharma protecting those who protect it?

[madhu]

Also where is helmet? Burka is more important than helmet? She had the intention of stocking sentiments... That's why full burka, no helmet...

[Cain Marko]

"Are you actually trying to justify the thugs who harassed that girl?"

Err... Please watch that video again saar, she parked her scooter in the school premises at the extreme end of the available space, came clad in a black burqa head toe, not just uniform + hijab, walked close to the saffron wearing protestors - which indicates she was looking for a confrontation, shouts "alla hoo akbar" repeatedly as provocation. No one actually surrounded her, or even got close enough to touch her. When she walked away from there no one chased her or made her feel insecure, so much for "thugs". She screams "alla hoo" again into waiting cameras.

Where is "harassment" here? I would bet if the religions were reversed, lone hindu girl against a group of muslim boys, things would transpire differently. In fact, when another procession of burqa clad girls where marching past hindu youth elsewhere, muslim boys along with them pelted stones and a hindu girl got injured.

Please dont spin too much, the ball will go wide.

Really? I'd like to see your reaction to such a mob hassling your family members. I've seen a number of videos and commentators on pro bjp oriented channels. Not a single commentator thought it any less than harassment. Don't blame the bowler if you can't handle the wicket.

[Sachin]

And Care to elaborate a bit more on what you mean by arabization?

I now get the drift . Basically you want Islamic practises to be given importance in Indian society even at the cost of Hindu culture, belief system. What I meant by Arab-ization is introduction aspects from the Middle Eastern countries/sheikdoms to India, a place where Muslims had their own way of life. This hijab/burqa stuff was not common in India till around 20 years back. Then Islamists groups started flourishing and started using this to bring up a new identity and to differentiate from the rest of Indians.

As far as halal food goes, most butchers in India traditionally were Muslims. So if you were enjoying biryani pre2005, it was likely to be quite halal.

Most and All, are ways apart . I have been eating restuarant food from my school days. None of these hotels had an Halal certification boards (even when owners were Muslims). These boards came when the community started considering themselves as Arabs than Indians. And then they came up with a lie that Halal only meant 'clean food' (as if rest of the hoteliers provided stale food). They did not mention that butchering was done based on Islamic rules and the butcher had to be a Muslim adult. If these people were so just & honest, why come up with excuses. And BTW; I still do take meat based food but the butcher is from a Hindu community only .

Are you actually trying to justify the thugs who harassed that girl?

If you feel it is justification then so be it.

Commies did it first, so now so called Hindus can do whatever they please?

The boys shouted "Jai Sri Ram", the girl shouted "Allahu Akbar". The girl (and many other girls) are all safe. Looks like you are expecting the "so called Hindus" to remain mute spectators whenever Islamists come up with their agenda aiming at another religious riot or another partition.

The Muslims had more pride in their faith and stood by it.

So you basically justify any shady game by Islamists, because you feel that they stood by their faith. How about now some Hindus getting pride in their faith, and standing by it? . Islamist apologists feel that every thing should be one ways (and which benefits them only).

[Sachin]

Strange... Bar & Bench have removed pretty much all information on today's arguments by Adv. Kamat and Ravi Varma Kumar. It is now put up a generic message. Was there a court order against live reporting?

[Cyrano]

No saar, you are reading things I did not write.

Hindu codes where rammed down the throat of Hindus by Ambedkar & Nehru with no public consultation when the nation was at a nascent stage without most hindu's realising what was happening. That era definitely had enough people McCaulayed to do it and let it happen. Congress rule for decades only reinforced "hindu religion needs reforms" and "minorities need to be made comfortable" BS. Its only now Hindus are waking up and questioning the past and the present. Muslims were only all to happy to encash the appeasement gifts and the minority Ashraf clique still lords over AIMLPB and Wakf keeping rest of the muslim community in ignorance and poverty. Behind their apparent unity, they also have their own classes, castes, divisions and goats.

With all thats happened, its hard to say what the UCC will look like, will it be better for Hindus or worse. Meanwhile, the newly awakening Hindus are showing some vigilance and spine to stand up against further skewing of an already lopsided social dynamic. And that's a good thing.

[Cyrano]

"Really? I'd like to see your reaction to such a mob hassling your family members."

No need to get personal. You have already downgraded the incident from "harassment" to "hassling", The Hindu crowd from "thugs" to "mob". Forget the commentators, watch a couple of times more, you may actually end up agreeing with me and start bowling straight

[Cain Marko]

And Care to elaborate a bit more on what you mean by arabization?

I now get the drift . Basically you want Islamic practises to be given importance in Indian society even at the cost of Hindu culture, belief system. What I meant by Arab-ization is introduction aspects from the Middle Eastern countries/sheikdoms to India, a place where Muslims had their own way of life. This hijab/burqa stuff was not common in India till around 20 years back. Then Islamists groups started flourishing and started using this to bring up a new identity and to differentiate from the rest of Indians.
That's not true. But was were common place for ages in India. Going back to the barelvis

As far as halal food goes, most butchers in India traditionally were Muslims. So if you were enjoying biryani pre2005, it was likely to be quite halal.

Most and All, are ways apart . I have been eating restuarant food from my school days. None of these hotels had an Halal certification boards (even when owners were Muslims). These boards came when the community started considering themselves as Arabs than Indians. And then they came up with a lie that Halal only meant 'clean food' (as if rest of the hoteliers provided stale food). They did not mention that butchering was done based on Islamic rules and the butcher had to be a Muslim adult. If these people were so just & honest, why come up with excuses. And BTW; I still do take meat based food but the butcher is from a Hindu community only .

Are you actually trying to justify the thugs who harassed that girl?

If you feel it is justification then so be it.

Commies did it first, so now so called Hindus can do whatever they please?

The boys shouted "Jai Sri Ram", the girl shouted "Allahu Akbar". The girl (and many other girls) are all safe. Looks like you are expecting the "so called Hindus" to remain mute spectators whenever Islamists come up with their agenda aiming at another religious riot or another partition.

The Muslims had more pride in their faith and stood by it.

So you basically justify any shady game by Islamists, because you feel that they stood by their faith. How about now some Hindus getting pride in their faith, and standing by it? . Islamist apologists feel that every thing should be one ways (and which benefits them only).

Sir. I really suggest you understand the Muslim community a bit better.
1. Arabs are the least concerned about halal and Haram food. It's always Muslims from the sub continent who have emphasized this. You'll notice this abroad too. The certification thing is a result of a global/western trend where capitalist establishments find it convenient to woo a rather large market. It seems that Indian muslims conveniently imported it.
2.burqas were worn commonly in rural Muslim households esp. In Muslim areas. Going back for a number of decades. IOWS they have always been wearing this attire in India in areas where they felt comfortable. Ditto with beards. The only time they didn't is when they felt they might be discriminated against because of obvious differences. I've known Muslims adapting Hindu names simply for this reason.
3. The boys were 50:1, louder and insistent that she remove a piece of her clothing outside the classroom, which by your own admission, she has every right to wear. You do realize that for a Muslim girl that's tantamount to being dishonored, right?
4. I'm not justifying anything shady, and am all for taking harsh and chanakyan steps where necessary. I'm expressing my angst at Hindus having surrendered their traditions and temples so willingly at the altar of modernism introduced by the Brits. And now express their frustration in a haphazard and wanton manner that does their cause no good.

[Cyrano]

Strange... Bar & Bench have removed pretty much all information on today's arguments by Adv. Kamat and Ravi Varma Kumar. It is now put up a generic message. Was there a court order against live reporting?

Its all there. Go from main page news item and scroll down the next page once its loads.

[Cain Marko]

"Really? I'd like to see your reaction to such a mob hassling your family members."

No need to get personal. You have already downgraded the incident from "harassment" to "hassling", The Hindu crowd from "thugs" to "mob". Forget the commentators, watch a couple of times more, you may actually end up agreeing with me and start bowling straight

Oh but there is every need to get personal sir. Unless we see this situation from another pov, there will be no victory, only disaster. I already said I agree in principle with your view of the situation in that the law should be applied equally.
But there is no way in hell that the videos in which these thugs are harassing that one girl is justified. There is actually one video in which they follow her very closely... Even before the more commonly viewed clip begins. Who gave them the right to get on campus, the Buggers should be punished... For harassing a woman, and for defaming the Bhagwa and Lord Rams Name.

[Cyrano]

"2.burqas were worn commonly in rural Muslim households esp. In Muslim areas. Going back for a number of decades. IOWS they have always been wearing this attire in India in areas where they felt comfortable. Ditto with beards. The only time they didn't is when they felt they might be discriminated against because of obvious differences. I've known Muslims adapting Hindu names simply for this reason."

I dont know which part of India your observations are from, they are not uniform across the country to generalise with aplomb. My observations as a Hyderabadi, having lived in Blr, Mumbai, and travelled across a fair bit of urban and rural India, north and south:

Burqa wearing was and is very low in upper class, affluent Ashraf muslims. Used to be the case for rural non-ashraf muslims as well, who still follow a number of hindu customs and traditions. They wear burqa lot more frequently now, since the past 2 decades or so. Its the lower middle class/poor urban muslims who wear burqas most, funnily when they are in predominantly muslim localities and not in mixed localities. More peer pressure then fear of the other it seems to me.

Non-halaal "jhatka" meat was common, even if the butcher was hindu or muslim. I don't remember anyone paying much attention to halaal 2 decades ago. It has changed, not just as a marketing ploy, but due to the imported arabisation of muslim popular culture which has changed mindsets and made the marketing click. Now they're selling all kinds of food products are halaal - I'm not sure what the heck thats about. perhaps multiple factors in play there.