2021 Strategic and Political Analysis-1

[Cain Marko]

No saar, you are reading things I did not write.

Hindu codes where rammed down the throat of Hindus by Ambedkar & Nehru with no public consultation when the nation was at a nascent stage without most hindu's realising what was happening. That era definitely had enough people McCaulayed to do it and let it happen. Congress rule for decades only reinforced "hindu religion needs reforms" and "minorities need to be made comfortable" BS. Its only now Hindus are waking up and questioning the past and the present. Muslims were only all to happy to encash the appeasement gifts and the minority Ashraf clique still lords over AIMLPB and Wakf keeping rest of the muslim community in ignorance and poverty. Behind their apparent unity, they also have their own classes, castes, divisions and goats.

With all thats happened, its hard to say what the UCC will look like, will it be better for Hindus or worse. Meanwhile, the newly awakening Hindus are showing some vigilance and spine to stand up against further skewing of an already lopsided social dynamic. And that's a good thing.

Arrey Sirji, even on this board today there are those who think that Hindu customs and dress have no place in the public. What more surrender of values do you want?
Nehru and Ambedkar were Hindus no? What about Prasad? And a multitude of others? All house negroes?
My point is that Hindus in general have drunk the colonial cool aid all too well. As a result they feel frustrated but don't really have solutions. Solutions will only come if they go back to their spiritual traditions and customs. Begin with govt control of temples. Demand to wear Hindu clothes and symbols in schools, and other institutions. Why the eff should they be sacrificed to the altar of a hypocritical secularism?

[Cyrano]

cain marko,
what ever cooks you halal goat man, I'm not arguing with you any more, its just ping pong without any interesting points being made. you are entitled to your views, however flawed they might be

[Ambar]

Evening news at 5 PM after a quiet start to classes in Karnataka, it looks like situation grew tense in many schools and colleges across the state today. Despite the court order, students in many areas came wearing hijabs with their parents and supporters in tow. Few colleges and schools chickened and allowed students to enter classes and many others stopped them from entering with hijab. There's an interview of hijab wearing kids (probably 13 or 14 yrs old) who were prohibited from entering the class in a school in Hassan Dist, and they are pretty clear about their intentions. The sheer radicalization of these little girls goes to show how deep and how early the aggression is introduced in their society .

Once again surprisingly the ground zero of this whole debate (Udupi/Dakshina Kannada) seem nonchalant, classes went on without any disturbances today. The message from many hijab wearing students and their parents was clear today, we dont care about what the court says, this is our religion and this is our attire. If the HC decides in favor of the state and schools, then the schools and colleges must be prepared to serve notice and expel the students if they go against the court order. And if the court rules in the favor of the students , then well, life goes on until the next controversy comes calling.

[Cain Marko]

cain marko,
what ever cooks you halal goat man, I'm not arguing with you any more, its just ping pong without any interesting points being made. you are entitled to your views, however flawed they might be

Thanks. Appreciate the favor.

[Sachin]

Sir. I really suggest you understand the Muslim community a bit better.

Sir, I have been watching the community within India and abroad. And I have forgotten when I joined BRF, but it was years back. So I have seen incidents such a terrorism (within and outside India), religious riots for pretty long time now.

The certification thing is a result of a global/western trend where capitalist establishments find it convenient to woo a rather large market. It seems that Indian muslims conveniently imported it.

And then started demanding that irrespective religion (of the owner) the establishment should have halal certification. And they also came up with some organization (not affiliated to governments) to review & "certify". The veiled threat has been that if it is not halal then Muslims would avoid it. The other aspects of butchers having to be Muslim adults etc was conviniently hidden - so that gullible folks from other community would remain clueless. And when people realised this trick there was a anti-halal campaign as well.

.burqas were worn commonly in rural Muslim households esp. In Muslim areas. Going back for a number of decades. IOWS they have always been wearing this attire in India in areas where they felt comfortable.

As I mentioned earlier; I come from a state which has large number of Muslims and X'ians. And I have studied in regular Arts colleges out there. Till mid 2005s no one out there wore these hijabs, shuttle cock burqas etc. It was only after the Arab money started coming in, identity crisis started coming up. Even in Mangalore; the college where the problem was triggered - they had a dress code for past 25 years. Were'nt the Muslim community not aware of this, and if this was such a big issue how come they allowed their girls to attend this college without any religious problems? .

The boys were 50:1, louder and insistent that she remove a piece of her clothing outside the classroom, which by your own admission, she has every right to wear. You do realize that for a Muslim girl that's tantamount to being dishonored, right?

The dress she was wearing was not hijab, but the burqah (which is that black bean bag like thing). So when hijab she comes up with an even more severe thing? She can wear those clothes outside the college campus, but cannot wear the same inside the college campus - which is exactly what she was trying to do. Now on the topic of "dishonoring". You assume that to be a honourable dress, so it is a "dishonor". Why should every one think in the same way? A Congress MLA, said not wearing hijab allows women to be raped. So what does that mean; only this dress "is honorable" and other women who do not wear that are "less than honorable"? And that wannabe rapists would drop the idea once they see the dress of the women (which actually insinuates who the rapists would be).

And now express their frustration in a haphazard and wanton manner that does their cause no good.

So what would be a non-haphazard manner would you reccommend? And how will that do their cause some good? Let Islamists dictate how the society at large should behave? Pretty much every secular/government establishment should have dress code which pleases the Islamists? One such Islamist wanted the Student Police Cadet corps in Kerala also to allow hijab. Luckily the KL Govt put its foot down; as they clearly knew that this was just a start of a bigger shady scheme. First in Student Police cadets, then into the regular uniformed forces.

[Sachin]

There's an interview of hijab wearing kids (probably 13 or 14 yrs old) who were prohibited from entering the class in a school in Hassan Dist, and they are pretty clear about their intentions. The sheer radicalization of these little girls goes to show how deep and how early the aggression is introduced in their society .

The chutzpah of the community seems to be unbelievable. Point #1; they have used the girl children. Point #2; they are misusing BJP's own campaign of Beti Bachao, Beti Padhao (Let girls live, and let them study). Point #3; the usual non-India based actors have also entered the parade. Useless Malala Yusufsai et.al. The idea seems to be allow maximum Islamisation of India when BJP itself is in power .

[madhu]

Sir. I really suggest you understand the Muslim community a bit better.

sir, i am sure there are people atleaset here i have seen have read Quran from cover to cover and even can quote it. the main current fight by Muslims is nether hijab or elections but to get power in their hand and twist the government to pay the cards that it wants. this has been well understood by Ambedkar who had stated,
" The dominating consideration is how democracy with majority rule will affect the Muslims in their struggle against the Hindus. Will it strengthen them or will it weaken them ? If democracy weakens them, they will not have democracy. They will prefer the rotten state to continue in the Muslim States rather than weaken the Muslim ruler in his hold upon his Hindu subjects."

my simple question to you is why this way of protests did not happen in Kerala where Muslim board school banned hijab but happening in Karnataka where the (hijab ban) uniform is mandated for long? the reason is in Kerala,if they fight it becomes Muslim vs Muslim and it weakens there position w.r.t Hindus on the other hand if they fight in Karnataka it strengthens there position and fight against Hindus.

2.burqas were worn commonly in rural Muslim households esp. In Muslim areas. Going back for a number of decades.

i can give you hadiths where burqas were not common during "Nabi's era. btw in india i am from a village and burka was not common when i was a kid. also it should be noted that there is no mandate in Quran for burka. even Arif mohammad also says the same.

The boys were 50:1, louder and insistent that she remove a piece of her clothing outside the classroom, which by your own admission, she has every right to wear. You do realize that for a Muslim girl that's tantamount to being dishonored, right?

i am repeating again why she did not wear helmet which is mandatory for 2 wheeler? but wore a full burka? she did it just to instigate the boys and create a tension.
i am happy that atleast this time boys have woken up against islam's, "My way or high way" attitude.

[Kaivalya]

2.burqas were worn commonly in rural Muslim households esp.
.

Cainji ,

Historically or not : Wearing burqa is wrong and cannot be justified for any reason or justified on any other premise. Please note burqa ( as seen worn by protesters ) should be made illegal ( not hijab )

Any laws that allow it must be reversed.

Mischievous politicians are already winning because election news cycle has been diverted by this carefully planned and enacted drama. This is not some random hindu response act.

1. Now the conversation is religious. Wrong framing. Some kid with a PFI father decided to make news. Look at pics/selfies that chetakji pointed out before.

2. Now the conversation is muslim equality. Wrong framing. No one cares. Everyone has to stop trying to prove equality. This has been used against India forever.

3. HC is scared to pass a judgement. Wrong framing. School has an uniform. If kids dont like it they can choose to go anywhere else. No one is obliged to accommodate. We dont even have handicap access in schools - why do we need to prove anything to anybody. People dont like it **they can do anything else every other wronged group is doing** not riot or stop traffic/economy

[fanne]

Do we know the whole story on Burqa clad women knifing a car driver in Gurugram?
She was wearing many rings (as prescribed for astrological reasons), unless that is a plant, she looks like a commy hindu lady gone rogue, or some attention seeker or personal enmity...
Tough time. The whole BIF in India and abroad is trying it mightiest to disrupt India

[sajo]

And BTW; I still do take meat based food but the butcher is from a Hindu community only .

Sorry for digressing from the topic at hand sir, but had to ask.
Is it so easy to get Jhatka/Hindu butchered meat in India? I like to think I live in a fairly hindu dominant densely populated (BJP safest seat ityadi) area of a big(gish) city, and nowhere in my 5km radius have I ever seen a Hindu meat shop. Either they are out and out islamic owned going by their names, or unclear ownership but with a very very prominent Halal board. There are some niche options available online, but really, a bulk of the buying happens from shops. Have all Hindu khatiks taken up other professions now ?
I am no longer a meat eater since about 10 years now, but I think asserting Hindu dominance over this crucial industry is important for many reasons.

[Sachin]

Is it so easy to get Jhatka/Hindu butchered meat in India? I like to think I live in a fairly hindu dominant densely populated

In the area where I live; suburb of a big city & a place where an Congress-wallah still won the last elections. We get chicken & mutton meat which is not halal. Pork also is available, but I have not seen the abbatoirs. No form of beef available. A couple of Kerala enterprenures had made an attempt to open restuarants they but had to shut down. So yes, there are pockets which have not halal meat. And now I also have seen ads in social media of stores selling jhatka meat.

[chetak]

such profound politicians are elected to offive

[Ambar]

..and when hindus are gone the shantidoots will blow each other up in the name of sunni , shia, barelvi, deobandi, sufi, ahmedi etc. every islamic nation with the exception of oil rich gulf shiekhdoms + malaysia is a basket case of disfunction and jihadi violence.

[chetak]

In a first ever such visit, Lt Gen Fahd Bin Abdullah Mohammed Al-Mutair, Commander, Royal Saudi Land Forces, Kingdom of Saudi Arabia called on General MM Naravane.

Look at the background of the picture....

[vijayk]

https://zeenews.india.com/india/punjabi ... 38206.html
Punjabi actor Deep Sidhu, gangster-turned activist Lakha Sidhana booked for Red Fort violence
The Delhi Police has named Punjabi actor and singer Deep Sidhu and gangster-turned-social activist Lakha Sidhana in an FIR in connection with the violence at the historic Red Fort. It has registered the case against them at the Kotwali police station of North district. The two have been booked under relevant sections of the IPC, the Prevention of Damage to Public Property Act and other legislations.

[Rudradev]

TNot sure what made this moron lose his marbles.

He never had any. Marbles that is.

In one Philip K. Dick novel ("Ubik") a character is described as having "a nose like the rubber bulb of a New Delhi taxi horn". I can never look at KCR without thinking of that line.

[Cain Marko]

To all the posters who have kindly engaged and responded to my posts, I'm going to try and address your points in this single one. Sorry I can't do it individually... Is like to but It's just too time consuming.

1. If your concern is that this is a planned political campaign pre election, I think that's a very distinct possibility. And I'm inclined to agree.

2. If you think that Muslims as a community are trying deliberately to islamicize desh through such shenanigans, and are actively participating in such incidents, I'll have to disagree. Are there those that are actively engaged in such processes?, obviously. But many, many are not.

3. If you think that all should follow the law/contract, and that it should be applied evenly, I agree. So if these kids are demanding some special treatment, I hope they don't get it.

4. If you think burqas should be banned in a larger context I disagree. This can and should be debated, but the move has to come from within that community.

5. If you think that the treatment meted out to the student kid by the crowd is legit, I have to disagree.

6. If you think that religious attire should be disallowed in colleges, I completely disagree.

I think this provides a perfect opportunity for Hindus to demand their rights from the state.

Jmtp

[chetak]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_J5bDhMP9lQ



What does the Quran really say about a Muslim woman's hijab? | Samina Ali | TEDx University of Nevada





watch to the end, you will not believe what you hear in the light of what is being said today by votebanki momin

[Kaivalya]

To all the posters who have kindly engaged and responded to my posts, I'm going to try and address your points in this single one. Sorry I can't do it individually... Is like to but It's just too time consuming.

1. If your concern is that this is a planned political campaign pre election, I think that's a very distinct possibility. And I'm inclined to agree.

It has been deemed that the best protesting population are burqa wearing women after Shaheen bagh, JNU etc. To stop traffic , riot from behind etc. because governments are deploying drones and using facial recognition to catch public property destroyers.

2. If you think that Muslims as a community are trying deliberately to islamicize desh through such shenanigans, and are actively participating in such incidents, I'll have to disagree. Are there those that are actively engaged in such processes?, obviously. But many, many are not.

The small number need the masses to fall in line. The small number of people are highly manipulative. The end result is what should matter. Why does it matter whether the manipulative few or the many engage in shenanigans. As long as they try and remain 1 block as a community ( based on history) . Why is it not an issue in kerala when this has been tried but an issue in karnataka?

3. If you think that all should follow the law/contract, and that it should be applied evenly, I agree. So if these kids are demanding some special treatment, I hope they don't get it.

Yes.sir. They were all (both sides) fine and getting along great till someone decided that burqas are birth rights which led to some other kids wearing saffron towels. It does not matter who started it as the order can be interchanged for the same result.Both are not needed in schools or colleges. If they are in school to study, they should do that and get out. Otherwise we end up with JNU types who do PHDs in subjects that are irrelevant and stay in campus for subsidized rents.

4. If you think burqas should be banned in a larger context I disagree. This can and should be debated, but the move has to come from within that community.
Aside from a selected few like arif khan, governor kerala, there are very few outspoken leaders. Why is this a community issue? Anyone who thinks this is a good idea should do it themselves for 3 months and then advocate its use for others. I mean guys too.


5. If you think that the treatment meted out to the student kid by the crowd is legit, I have to disagree.
Once passions are inflamed there is no point in selecting actions in the middle of several.

6. If you think that religious attire should be disallowed in colleges, I completely disagree.
As a teacher, I would need to see the kids face to see if he/she understands a concept. If 10 kids are wearing burqas I lose all body language cues to teach. If it is so important to wear burqa why not go to a madrassa? Why should an individual's choice make my job harder or impossible? How about exams - do we need retina scanners?

I think this provides a perfect opportunity for Hindus to demand their rights from the state. This is a false equivalence. Hindus should do what they need to do anyway. This does not create or remove opportunity.

Jmtp

Cainji - responses inline, with respect...

[madhu]

4. If you think burqas should be banned in a larger context I disagree. This can and should be debated, but the move has to come from within that community.

Cain, what is the purpose of uniform in school? we are not asking for burka ban for kids outside the school but we need to maintain the uniform inside the school and not religious dress to build secular mindset in kids.
BTW i am in 10th standard and took naga deeksham, can i come naked to school. my religious requirement is to be naked? also my brother in same class has taken degambara deeksha he wants to come naked my cousin is an ayappa bhakt so he comes in black and another cousin is a brahmin and do not want to wear shirt. few more cousins are from tribal religion so i dont know what they wear.

do you want schools to look like this? do we need to segregate the students as kafir and non-kafirs by asking them to come in burka, because Quran says so in 33.59? btw dont know if you know full story this issue started when 6 girls studying in ONLY GIRLS collage protested not wearing uniform instead prefer burka. the question is if burka is to protect girls from guys where are boys in all girls collage class room? Don't they know when they joined the school or signed the joining letter, they need to wear uniform? If covering head can't they use scarf as per the rules? Why burka?

If burka which is not there in Quran need to be implemented tomorrow it will be namaz. All none Muslim must wait till 2 or 3 Muslim complete their namaz to continue class as namaz is one of the five pillars of Islam.(Sahih al-Bukhari 8. )

Also Quran 3.28 says no friendship with none Muslims. So let's not allow none Muslims into class (I know I am stretching it too far, but that is how Pakistan was formed right)

Please note these people don't want to change. Want all the rights but never give any to other. Do u know how many exMuslim channels have been closed just because they tell the truth? Latest being Exmuslim sahil.

[venkat_kv]

Many many years ago when i was in school we did not have uniforms past 8th grade. It wasn't uncommon for muslim girls in their teens to come to school wearing burqa and then take it off while they were inside the school. I also remember couple of them kept their hijabs on. That said even back then there were double standards in Christian institutes where hindu students, especially male students who were holding Ayappa vratha were not allowed in the campus if they had any hindu religious symbols/garments. In the last 10 or 12 years for whatever the reason many institutes including graduate and post-graduate colleges have opted for uniforms. A 60+ yr old engineering institute in my area that has both bachelors and masters program implemented unforms for its students few years ago, and the justification was girls had started dressing provocatively (whatever that means!).

It is in the backdrop of this new fashion of uniforms that 6 girls decided to wear a hijab and one college principal went flying off the handle. Some seem to be in the belief that hindus are out in the streets protesting against hijabis, i can assure you from ground zero that is not the case ! Most hindus , including those from BJP are indifferent to this whole hijab controversy . While there isnt much sympathy for ever increasing "in the face" islamism in the region, there isnt much support for anti-hijab movement either in a city where on any given day half the crowd in malls/restaurants wear full burqas.

Khangress and its supporters wanted to use this controversy to create another anti-CAA like issue hoping it would rally their beloved M-voter block in the current elections, but now they are worried about a possible counter-polarization and consolidation of hindu votes in favor of BJP and hence the backtracking in the recently concluded KPCC meeting in Bangalore.

Interesting. That the thing is a bif ploy is not surprising, esp. So close to elections. Hope it blows in there face.

But there are certain questions/issues that your post raises....
1. Who do you think were the jokers hassling the mushkan kid when she got on campus? That kind of naareybaazi and gherao seems well planned and puts all things Hindu in a very poor light.
........

Actually it almost seems like there is some common ground between Hindus and Muslims when it comes to this issue.

Cain Marko Saar,
You probably need to see this video from Ajeet Bharati where it shows the girl being heckled and also another videos where a group of burqa clad ladies are heckling boys going to their school. Did you see anyone speak about the boys rights or if he is a lion among wolves/dogs or whatever they are trying to portray the girl Muskan in the social media.
she shouts at the protesting boys and then shouts into camera. This is like the same incident during the shaheen bagh anti-caa riots when the two girl students from jamia were called "sheroes". This seems to be scripted for most part to show case her as a symbol because protests need symbols and martyrs. Govt isn't doing any action and providing them martyrs, so they seem to be creating symbols - a hollow ones at that.

It also shows a victim of stone pelting, a girl nonetheless. All the secularists need to answer if they are secular only for muslim and christian rights and no one else.

[Cain Marko]

To folks who REALLY want to preserve secular ethos and uniform... Why?
On one hand we do rnd because of pseudo secularism, and on the other we insist upon it.
My point is that Hindus should also wear their symbols to classrooms. Why the heck do you want to follow arcane Prussian school master and British prep school norms for swatantra Bharat? If Digambar naga wants to join so be it. In fact, such folks should be invited to the classroom if real pluralism has to prevail. If hijabi/ bindiji wants to join, equally so be it.
Why so hesitant to use Dharmic symbols? Garva sey Kaho hum Hindu hai. Hichkichatey kyon ho bhai?

How long will Indians remain macaulays children?

[Cain Marko]

[

Cain Marko Saar,
You probably need to see this video from Ajeet Bharati where it shows the girl being heckled and also another videos where a group of burqa clad ladies are heckling boys going to their school.

Will take a look... But rest assured if burqa types are harassing innocent kids going to school, they should not escape punishment...

[m_saini]

To folks who REALLY want to preserve secular ethos and uniform... Why?......

+1
Secularism, and increasingly "democracy", has become a tool for the intolerant to tame the tolerant.

[madhu]

To folks who REALLY want to preserve secular ethos and uniform... Why?
On one hand we do rnd because of pseudo secularism, and on the other we insist upon it.
My point is that Hindus should also wear their symbols to classrooms. Why the heck do you want to follow arcane Prussian school master and British prep school norms for swatantra Bharat? If Digambar naga wants to join so be it. In fact, such folks should be invited to the classroom if real pluralism has to prevail. If hijabi/ bindiji wants to join, equally so be it.
Why so hesitant to use Dharmic symbols? Garva sey Kaho hum Hindu hai. Hichkichatey kyon ho bhai?

How long will Indians remain macaulays children?

the reason is very simple. in India only HINDUS should follow secularism and rest should follow there religion. Hindus should pay money that can be used to serve minorities. let me give you another example. is Hindu temple religious or seculars? here is a ruling form HC
'We Are A Secular Country; There Is An Effort To Divide The Country By Religion' : Madras HC CJ

[Cain Marko]

[Why is this a community issue? .

Kaivalyaji,
Because it is impossible and dangerous to do it from the outside. But debates and issues should be raised and discussion encouraged so that those within start getting some exposure. But if we try to impose it from the outside, we are looking at unnecessary damage and violence. There is no point in damaging a rising Indias prospects by pushing such an agenda.
Think about it... Once upon a time riots were a monthly occurrence all over the country. And some of them were major flare ups. This has reduced considerably and I can't remember anything comparable to Gujrat, Mumbai or Bhiwandi for 2 decades. And that's despite the RJB verdict going the non Muslim way.
The way I see it, the country has only gotten stronger. More vikas and reintroduction of Sanatana values in the mainstream will only expedite this strength. Modi has got it right. But fringe saffron types are of no use

[Sachin]

If you think that Muslims as a community are trying deliberately to islamicize desh through such shenanigans, and are actively participating in such incidents, I'll have to disagree. Are there those that are actively engaged in such processes?, obviously. But many, many are not.

The silence from the Muslim community in general becomes a tacit support for the Islamists. Ultimately the Muslim community has nothing to lose by keeping quiet when the Islamists run bersek. And when things really get heated up, we then see excuses like "PFI & RSS are two sides of a coin" or "RSS==ISS==ICICI==HDFC" kind of equations.

If you think burqas should be banned in a larger context I disagree. This can and should be debated, but the move has to come from within that community.

If burqas are a threat to public safety and security then there is no point to wait till eternity for moves coming from within that community. The other groups of people in India cannot just sit idle and hope things to get sorted within that community, while terrorist attacks & riots just continue to happen.

Why so hesitant to use Dharmic symbols? Garva sey Kaho hum Hindu hai. Hichkichatey kyon ho bhai?

I think I am getting what you are saying. The Islamists have every right to demand benefits/freedom/excuses because they stand for their faith (refer to your earlier post), and this has to be given. The Hindus can also try similar shenanigans if they really want it; but your opinion is that they allowed all and sundry to trample over their religion. And correct me if I am wrong; you feel that Hindus in general are more interested in the "secular" dress code (and never protested earlier). But you still want Islamists to be given the freedom of wearing a religion prescribed dress code. As I get it; you seem to take a stand that Muslim community holds their faith at a more higher level, Hindus don't - and thus all the demands of Islamists (with religion as excuse) should be allowed.

[Cain Marko]

the reason is very simple. in India only HINDUS should follow secularism and rest should follow there religion.

Yeah but that's because Hindus are only too happy to sacrifice their own institutions at the altar of secularism/modernism. And this is the problem. If Hindus insisted upon their Dharmic rights, they will not be denied but half of them are confused as to whether that's a good thing or not

[Cain Marko]

As I get it; you seem to take a stand that Muslim community holds their faith at a more higher level, Hindus don't - and thus all the demands of Islamists (with religion as excuse) should be allowed.

Obviously not ALL demands but yes, you have the gist of it. Hindus are too willing to question their tradition in the name of science, empiricism, democracy, secularism, you name it. If no other religion wishes to make their system compatible with such values, why should only Hindus do it? Aa bail mujhe maar?
The way I see it this is an opportunity for Hindus to bring Hindu values and symbols back to the classroom, from kids wearing shikhas and tilaks to whatever else that is important to reminding one of Bharatiya Sanskriti. Otherwise, you will only get future generations that will be happy to go to Berkeley and Harvard and periodically sh#t on anything Hindu.

[madhu]

And this is the problem. If Hindus insisted upon their Dharmic rights, they will not be denied but half of them are confused as to whether that's a good thing or not

that is the problem. Hindus are interested in this life. they want to build their life here unlike muslim who want to die or believe bukhari:4557 in to get 72 ASAP. One thing that need to be noted here is that not all muslims want 72 except a few, but all muslim remain silent and thus like give tacit support.

on the other hand even if Hindus insisted other community to follow rules that were agreed upon and fought for it by shouting slogans people will not ask why small kid broke the rule by not wearing helmet but not forgot her burka instead accuse hindus "Who do you think were the jokers hassling the mushkan kid when she got on campus? That kind of naareybaazi and gherao seems well planned and puts all things Hindu in a very poor light"

and if they dont do anything then same people will say "I'm expressing my angst at Hindus having surrendered their traditions"

but sir "Hindus insisted upon their Dharmic rights, they will not be denied" did not happen in the case on 10th Feb 2022, below is the link if you missed last time.
'We Are A Secular Country; There Is An Effort To Divide The Country By Religion' : Madras HC CJ

[Cyrano]

There are a few popular "idées reçues" or fallacies regarding religions, especially in an Indian context:

1. All religions are the same
They are not. xtianity and islam hold the opposite to be true. Their idea of god is the best, those who consider otherwise are pagans/heathens/kaffirs. They have never hidden this view, as history and the present demonstrate it amply. The Hindu idea of "sarva dharma samabhav" remains purely a hindu idea.

2. Religion is a matter of personal faith and practice.
Its could be, but its NOT. xtianity and islam given point 1, consider it it their right to proselytise and convert "non believers", and support it using "divine mandate" or "prophetic injunction ". They have never hidden this, as history and the present demonstrate it amply. The Hindu idea of "Ekam sat vipra bahuda vadanti" remains purely a hindu idea.

3. We need to be secular to have a peaceful prosperous society
Where secular means, quoting the Indian constitution Art 25 (1) "Equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practice and propagate religion." Of the four operative words conscience, profess, practice and propagate, Hinduism by its very nature focuses essentially on conscience, is lenient wrt practice, has a little bit of "profess" in its own community, and near zero "propagate". xtianity and islam focus on all four, but especially on "profess" and "propagate". So secularism becomes a weird playing ground when 80% hold self realisation as the essential goal and 20% hold expansion as essential and see the 80% as targets. By granting equal rights to divergent sets of beliefs to operate, you will only create conflict, a lopsided one at that. Unless the 80% meekly surrenders or is totally subjugated. Like Zoroastrians of Iran in the past. Or so many indigenous faith systems in colonised lands.

4. Religion should be separated from politics
When xtianity and islam hold conversion and expansion as fundamental tenets and rewards are promised to their adherents for it in the after life, their whole discourse is to create an inferior opinion of the others, project themselves as superior and hold conversion as a holy objective - which requires resources, freedom to operate, power and patronage, there is no way politics can be kept out of it.

5. Its not OK to criticise the other religions and we must respect their beliefs no questions asked. (= religious tolerance)
When xtianity and islam hold beliefs that translate to practices and actions that constantly attempt to denigrate, cajole, pressure and contain/plunder/decimate non-believers who resist (they both go about it in very different ways, ranging from missionaries of charity to jamaat e islam) then this wilful self-blinding of hindus (and a certain degree of gullibility arising out of their own world view summarised by the titles of these 5 points) to this essential nature of these faiths will lead to all kinds of accommodations and concessions. Which can include supporting oppressive practices like hijab/burqa and calling for effacement of overt hindu symbols or practices in search of some equality enabled just and harmonious society. Good luck with that.

6. But people who follow these religions are humans, and not all are fanatics
Of course this is true, but all humans adhere to some set of beliefs and apply them to varying degrees, depending on their setting, education, influences and opportunities. I would actually go as far as to say, the "moderate" attitudes of some or many people belonging to expansionist faiths in India is due to the tempering influence of the 80% Hindus that surround them on their divine injunctions. But new influences can override existing ones, xtianity and islam know the importance of keeping one's flock tightly together all to well, and once someone starts going down the fundamentalist path, its very very difficult to turn around, personally or in their group. Its not saying "guilty until proven innocent" but I'm saying "better be safe than sorry".

So I would suggest that when dealing with other faiths that are fundamentally different from your's, hindus, hindu institutions, hindu society need to recognise and admit that our frameworks are different, and be watchful of these 6 fallacies. Don't go out and make enemies, but don't invite "strangers" into your house thinking he will also be thinking just like you. Transact with respect at arms length. And dont let any micro or macro aggression go unopposed.

If Hindus behaved this way, india will be more peaceful and prosperous country that any secular model can ever be. This change is happening slowly across hindu mindset, and the dramatic reduction of riots is but a proof that it works. We will see conversion rackets dwindle as well in the future if we stay the course.

There is nothing radical or hateful about all this; just being factual. The 20% are here, most of them have hindu ancestors, we are from the same stock. We cant wish them away, but to coexist peacefully, we need to set boundaries and rules of engagement. Also, learn from them on keeping your flock together. Practice your religion and traditions more and profess more, spread spiritual light and wisdom, start propagating - after all these are constitutionally guaranteed rights available even to the majority.

[Cyrano]

KA HC bench has resumed the hearing, hopefully complainants arguments will conclude today and we can hear how the KA AG defends the case.

Audio quality of the live stream is quite poor.

[Cyrano]

It was quite mind bending to hear lawyer Mr Muchhala use Fundamental Duties : Art. 51A (e) to argue for the complainant :

(e) to promote harmony and the spirit of common brotherhood amongst all the people of India transcending religious, linguistic and regional or sectional diversities; to renounce practices derogatory to the dignity of women;

[Kaivalya]

[Why is this a community issue? .

Kaivalyaji,
Because it is impossible and dangerous to do it from the outside.

But if we try to impose it from the outside, we are looking at unnecessary damage and violence. There is no point in damaging a rising Indias prospects by ...

The way I see it, the country has only gotten stronger. More vikas and reintroduction of Sanatana values in the mainstream will only expedite this strength. Modi has got it right. But fringe saffron types are of no use

Cainji,

This has been tried over and over again. Notice how you added 3 issues together.

Peacefuls have convinced you that if you intervene there will be dangerous consequences. Till this notion is not fixed, there can be no rationale/dialog/debate etc.

Teaching peacefuls to be peaceful, makes you think that it will be damaging to india's prosperity and rise. Till this threat is removed, there will be no progress.

You objected to sachinji's characterization of abrahamics : When people say, "I have a book, I will not listen to anything anyone else is saying. My interpretation is the only correct thought and no one else in the future can contradict me. The one who gave me the book is the one and only one" - it represents abrahamic thought and leaves no room for discussion hence your conclusion about damage and violence.

Are you sure, you want to keep repeating the same logic used for a long time now and expect different results?

[Tanaji]

In the meanwhile we have this

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/india/ku ... reappshare

Kejriwal wants to be the PM of a separate country of Punjab.

Granted Kumar Vishwas is not a reliable source, but Kejriwal is an out and out nihilist with delusions of grandeur fuelled by ambition and supported by tukde tukde gang. Nothing can be below him in his ambition….

[Cain Marko]

And this is the problem. If Hindus insisted upon their Dharmic rights, they will not be denied but half of them are confused as to whether that's a good thing or not

that is the problem. Hindus are interested in this life. they want to build their life here unlike muslim who want to die or believe bukhari:4557 in to get 72 ASAP. One thing that need to be noted here is that not all muslims want 72 except a few, but all muslim remain silent and thus like give tacit support.

on the other hand even if Hindus insisted other community to follow rules that were agreed upon and fought for it by shouting slogans people will not ask why small kid broke the rule by not wearing helmet but not forgot her burka instead accuse hindus "Who do you think were the jokers hassling the mushkan kid when she got on campus? That kind of naareybaazi and gherao seems well planned and puts all things Hindu in a very poor light"

and if they dont do anything then same people will say "I'm expressing my angst at Hindus having surrendered their traditions"

but sir "Hindus insisted upon their Dharmic rights, they will not be denied" did not happen in the case on 10th Feb 2022, below is the link if you missed last time.
'We Are A Secular Country; There Is An Effort To Divide The Country By Religion' : Madras HC CJ

1. Hindus are interested in life, and Muslims in death. sure. Whatever. I suppose that's what the 1000s of muslims who serve in Indian police and armed services think, no? And I suppose examples such as the many khudai khidmatgar should be readily discarded because they mustn't be Muslims wonlee, wot? Btw there are a few 1000 even today!
2. Student Girl should be penalized for not wearing helmet. If that's the law, sure. But the larger, more relevant discussion here is not about traffic violations is it? Nevertheless, Perhaps concerned and observant citizens like you should send a note to the local traffic cops reminding them of their negligence in the matter. I'm sure they'll be anguished at their failure under the present circumstances.
3. And to address the madras HC judgement. First, the complaint seems to be filed by someone who is not one of the temple authorities. Let the temple priests take umbrage over the entrance/non entrance of people to the temple premises. Second, far more egregious issues have gone in the favor of Hindus.... Are we forgetting RJB verdict? Finally, coming to my main argument....the honble justices seems to belong to which community Saar? Going by their honorable names, certainly didn't seem Muslim to me.
Again, this just makes my point... Hindus are all too all too comfortable to sacrifice their traditions at the altar of modern ideas. Altho in hizoners defence it is not clear that such a tradition ever existed in said temple. And the complainant certainly couldn't effectively make such a case. Having said this, he did use the right method.. What he needs is more robust support for his case.
But it is more convenient to blame Muslims wonlee for such judgements no? Let's take out all our angst on dem moslems because our guys don't give two hoots about Hindu traditions. Nice.

[Cain Marko]

Kaivalyaji,
Because it is impossible and dangerous to do it from the outside.

But if we try to impose it from the outside, we are looking at unnecessary damage and violence. There is no point in damaging a rising Indias prospects by ...

The way I see it, the country has only gotten stronger. More vikas and reintroduction of Sanatana values in the mainstream will only expedite this strength. Modi has got it right. But fringe saffron types are of no use

Cainji,

This has been tried over and over again. Notice how you added 3 issues together.

Peacefuls have convinced you that if you intervene there will be dangerous consequences. Till this notion is not fixed, there can be no rationale/dialog/debate etc.

Teaching peacefuls to be peaceful, makes you think that it will be damaging to india's prosperity and rise. Till this threat is removed, there will be no progress.

You objected to sachinji's characterization of abrahamics : When people say, "I have a book, I will not listen to anything anyone else is saying. My interpretation is the only correct thought and no one else in the future can contradict me. The one who gave me the book is the one and only one" - it represents abrahamic thought and leaves no room for discussion hence your conclusion about damage and violence.

Are you sure, you want to keep repeating the same logic used for a long time now and expect different results?

If you think that outside intervention can help the situation, I'm open to that IF pursued correctly. I think it is possible if it is done legally like the 3 talaaq case. Even RJB in the early 80s was palatable to Muslims after the initial ASI report.

My point simply is that surrounding and intimidating a solitary kid or clambering up a flag pole (normally reserved for the tiranga) to hoist the Bhagwa dhwaj, is hardly going to help, and will serve only to provoke unwanted responses. The optics, let alone the ethics, are terrible to say the least.

[Cain Marko]

Anyways, I think this is my last on this. Thank you for the robust engagement guys

[madhu]

that is the problem. Hindus are interested in this life. they want to build their life here unlike muslim who want to die or believe bukhari:4557 in to get 72 ASAP. One thing that need to be noted here is that not all muslims want 72 except a few, but all muslim remain silent and thus like give tacit support.

on the other hand even if Hindus insisted other community to follow rules that were agreed upon and fought for it by shouting slogans people will not ask why small kid broke the rule by not wearing helmet but not forgot her burka instead accuse hindus "Who do you think were the jokers hassling the mushkan kid when she got on campus? That kind of naareybaazi and gherao seems well planned and puts all things Hindu in a very poor light"

and if they dont do anything then same people will say "I'm expressing my angst at Hindus having surrendered their traditions"

but sir "Hindus insisted upon their Dharmic rights, they will not be denied" did not happen in the case on 10th Feb 2022, below is the link if you missed last time.
'We Are A Secular Country; There Is An Effort To Divide The Country By Religion' : Madras HC CJ

1. Hindus are interested in life, and Muslims in death. sure. Whatever. I suppose that's what the 1000s of muslims who serve in Indian police and armed services think, no? And I suppose examples such as the many khudai khidmatgar should be readily discarded because they mustn't be Muslims wonlee, wot? Btw there are a few 1000 even today!

sir, you are twisting my words intentionally. I never said ALL MUSLIMS. i have highlighted above what i have told. for youre clarity let me repeat it.
One thing that need to be noted here is that not all muslims want 72 except a few, but all muslim remain silent and thus {it is }like give{ing} tacit support.

2. Student Girl should be penalized for not wearing helmet. If that's the law, sure. But the larger, more relevant discussion here is not about traffic violations is it? Nevertheless, Perhaps concerned and observant citizens like you should send a note to the local traffic cops reminding them of their negligence in the matter. I'm sure they'll be anguished at their failure under the present circumstances.

here too you are missing the point intentionally. i have posted before too. she came without helmet just to instigate the crowd.

Are we forgetting RJB verdict? Finally, coming to my main argument....the honble justices seems to belong to which community Saar? Going by their honorable names, certainly didn't seem Muslim to me.

yes after 150 yrs of judgment. if Babri demolition and riots had not happened it would not be in our favor even with good amount of proof. this will lead to different discussion so lets stop here.

Anyways, I think this is my last on this. Thank you for the robust engagement guys

thanks for misquoting me.

[Sachin]

And to address the madras HC judgement. First, the complaint seems to be filed by someone who is not one of the temple authorities.

You need not answer this question . But are you an Indian citizen who still resides in this country?. Why ask this is because you do not seem to understand how Hindu temples are governed in India. Large Hindu temples in three southern states (KL, TN, KA) are managed by Devaswom/Endowment/Muzrai departments which is formed and managed by the elected state government. So the "temple authorities" in this case are actually the said government authorities; and the complainant in this case had to approach the country because the so called authority had political considerations more than any Hindu religious considerations.

A report from the Hindustan Times on this case.
1. The bench eventually advised him to produce evidence for his prayer. What part of the ‘agamas’ (rituals) refer to pants, dhotis and shirts, the court asked. - The case is still not closed, the verdict is NOT out. Petitioner still can bring in evidence.

2. "Tamil Nadu advocate general R Shanmugasundaram told the court that each temple follows its own custom and visitors belonging to other religions are allowed only up to the ‘kodi maram’ (flag mast). " - Here the TN advocate general is not arguing that non-Hindus should be allowed to run bersek in Hindu temples. Instead he is trying to explain/justify that they are only allowed to enter to a specific point in a temple complex. The fact that the advocate had to clarify this is because the petitioner (Hindu devotee) had raised the concern on this. That is the "temple authority" is now forced to confirm on the plans for non-Hindus entering Hindu temples. They cannot weasel out by now bringing in "secularism" etc.

3. "The court also sought the response of the government on the PIL." - If the case had no merit then why ask the state government to respond to the PIL?

The rest of the dialogues by the judges are just that. Plain dialogues which is never recorded and made part of the official verdict/judgement. These are generally considered as "oral observations", which the media is trying spin and tag it with the hijab issue. Indian media is extremely "secular" (i.e pro-minority religions) and most of the neutral observers seems to realise their true intentions.

PS: You may ask; how Hindus were incompetent so that the temple management was given away to elected state governments. That is another topic in "Secular (?) Indian History" . And Karnataka again have ruffled a few feathers with Bill to free temples from govt control soon: Karnataka CM. DK Shivakumar from the ever-secular Indian National Congress states that temples are the wealth of the government, a wealth of the treasury {i.e a public fund which can be used for any purpose}.