Eastern Europe/Ukraine [Feb 6th 2015]

srikandan · Post by **srikandan** » 17 Mar 2022 04:04

The Ukrainians have also been using human shield with civilians, like they tried with Indian students. What is incredible is that the western Kangaroo courts are all active about "war crimes" based on propaganda like the above where the claim is that children were written next to the school...along with military targets surely, so Russians would bomb the building and the Ukrainians can pretend it was a school full of children. Verification of such claims is impossible, so it is quite easy to show only one side after censoring all views from the other side.

bala · Post by **bala** » 17 Mar 2022 04:19

This is war. There are going to be casualties on both sides and some mistakes (accidental or otherwise). Will await the final outcome. The way things are unfolding, Russia is no hurry. They are going about things at their pace, eventually they are going to secure the coastline. Meanwhile Ukraine will go through destruction presided by Zelensky who could have avoided all this by declaring his country as Neutral and Not NATO. The Nautanki of Western press is tiresome, how many times are they going to cry wolf. Their sanctimonious berating and lectures are all falling on deaf ears. I am sure Europe is facing runaway inflation of most commodities and the common man is being squeezed out of their last savings.

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 17 Mar 2022 04:31

bala wrote:Meanwhile Ukraine will go through destruction presided by Zelensky who could have avoided all this by declaring his country as Neutral and Not NATO.

Similar to Saddam Hussein, who should and could have told in several categorical ways he did not have WMD. He played along and sent mix messages, and paid the price. By the time he denied, it was too late. Playing with super powers can be disaster unless one is Pakistan.

Div · Post by **Div** » 17 Mar 2022 04:37

Mort Walker wrote:
srikandan wrote:
And who determines what's dubious, you and your american buddies?

What's dubious is flooding only the US/NATO POV on this thread to the exclusion of all other POVs. That makes for a great echo chamber.
By all accounts, Russian personnel and material losses have been shocking. Yes, every reasonable person knew it was going to be nasty and the Ukrainians are hiding their losses, but Russian losses are not sustainable for morale. What I don’t understand is why the Russians didn’t lay various cities to waste early on.

I agree. Having also looked through a bunch of very pro-Russian sources (putting things in the best of light) this has been a very poor showing so far.

We don't know what type of air assets the Russians are deploying for intel, but you can see through public domain sites that the Americans and NATO have E-3s, RC-135s, JStars, Global Hawks, Erieyes, etc. almost constantly on the Ukr border and hoovering up everything.

I am still waiting to see if there an economic counter that the Russians will follow up with.

IndraD · Post by **IndraD** » 17 Mar 2022 04:42

Bojo who went to Saudi for oil has returned empty handed with OPEC refusing to increase oil output to stabilise price, ofcourse Saudi MbS not picking Biden phone is a regular now

https://www.reuters.com/world/uk-pm-joh ... 022-03-15/ UK's Johnson fails to secure public oil rise pledges after talks with Saudi, UAE

John · Post by **John** » 17 Mar 2022 04:56

vinod wrote:The kherson attack must be very morale boosting for Ukrainians. How can you lose so many helicopters and trucks on the ground? Why are they not doing a good job of protecting their forward bases?

Ukrainians are doing hit and run but picking very juicy high value targets.

Moving that many aviation assets within range of enemy MRL is not good decision and keeping them there even after they were attacked is even worse.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2022 06:05

SwamyG wrote:
bala wrote:Meanwhile Ukraine will go through destruction presided by Zelensky who could have avoided all this by declaring his country as Neutral and Not NATO.
Similar to Saddam Hussein, who should and could have told in several categorical ways he did not have WMD. He played along and sent mix messages, and paid the price. By the time he denied, it was too late. Playing with super powers can be disaster unless one is Pakistan.

SwamyG, it is very clear that the US fabricated the WMD in Iraq evidence and got the uN to vote for an attack.
It would not matter whether he sent messages or not.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 17 Mar 2022 06:11

Folks it is not even our war.
Why are you sniping at each other and giving work for others to report and make work for hardpressed admins?
Knock of personal attacks.
Thanks, ramana.
PS: And don't report here.

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 17 Mar 2022 06:14

ManuJ wrote:
dnivas wrote:99% of John's major posts have turned out to be fake news.
I think it's really the other way around. Please avoid posting rumors and 'news' from dubious sites.

What dubious sites are you talking about? Could you please let me know?

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 17 Mar 2022 06:21

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bqAneg5-E4

A Russian perspective.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 17 Mar 2022 06:24

I agree with Ramana, we really don’t have any dog in this fight aside from keeping low energy prices and delivery of Russian weapon systems already paid for. The latter is going to be delayed indefinitely.

Europeans including the Russians are nasty towards Indians. They have this propensity to think of themselves as superior. They are barbarians hell bent on killing each for the 3rd time in 100 years.

Div · Post by **Div** » 17 Mar 2022 06:32

This is a few days old so I am not sure if it has already been posted.

Ukraine-Russia War Round Table: Hear Maj Gen Bakshi & India's Former Envoy In Kyiv Amb VB Soni
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMEpo6h3A-s

John · Post by **John** » 17 Mar 2022 06:57

dnivas wrote:
ManuJ wrote: I think it's really the other way around. Please avoid posting rumors and 'news' from dubious sites.
What dubious sites are you talking about? Could you please let me know?

Tell me one news that was fake, anything that was not confirmed I pointed it out ? But WSJ article seems accurate not sure you have anything that says otherwise (sure there may be some exaggerations as with any retelling) and also you are saying Kherson base attack never happened I posted video from Russian officer posted widely in pro Russian telegram groups ..?

You can't blindly say everything is fake just because you don't like the outcome. You have to consume all data points even if you are not happy with end result and use your judgment.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 17 Mar 2022 07:01

Anoop wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bqAneg5-E4

A Russian perspective.

I listened to it and Anton was trying to rationalize what has and is happening in Ukraine. A weak response and he could not articulate Russia’s position in a few minutes.

What he should have said was what the objective is to stop the genocide of Russian people by completely destroying Ukraine’s military capacity and killing all Ukrainian soldiers who do not surrender. To end this conflict, the Ukrainian military must lay down their arms and surrender into the arms of their Russian brothers.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Mar 2022 07:03

https://twitter.com/RupakChatto/status/ ... Not0ZsuL6Q ---> How much EU has paid Russia, since it invaded Ukraine.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 17 Mar 2022 07:06

https://twitter.com/TheresaAFallon/stat ... Not0ZsuL6Q ---> Biggest single flow of Russian crude into Europe — almost 1 million barrels a day — comes via the 5,000 km Druzhba (Friendship) pipeline from Almetyevsk in central Russia to refineries in Belarus, Poland, Germany, Slovakia, Czech Republic & Hungary.

https://twitter.com/TheresaAFallon/stat ... Not0ZsuL6Q ---> Europe’s dependence on a 58-year-old Soviet pipeline and millions of barrels a day of Russian crude, has pushed the region’s leaders to resist an oil embargo as refiners from Shell to France’s TotalEnergies hunt for alternative supplies. via @FT.

https://twitter.com/TheresaAFallon/stat ... Not0ZsuL6Q ---> Although many banks, insurers & shippers started to shun all Russia biz, oil has continued to flow along Druzhba, partly because no further transport is required. Oil is generally delivered under long-term contracts, meaning there has been limited need for refiners to do “new” biz with Transneft.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Mar 2022 07:33

Mort/ Ramana,

I have to disagree with you that we don't have a dog in the fight.

We have several interests in this fight.

1) make sure that Russia is not humiliated in such a way that they end up
a) in bed with PRC.
b) an independent Russian government is replaced by a western puppet.

2) US to be brought down to earth just enough that it starts acting a bit normal. Not totally psychotic, as it's doing right now.

3) a controlled emergence or alternate global trading system. With sufficient stakes for India preservation of Indian strategic autonomy.

4) development of a new multi polar world order.

This war has opened up the opportunity for us to seek a rupee deals with OPEC countries. We have to start pushing for that. It will protect against oil shocks.

yogeshkumar · Post by **yogeshkumar** » 17 Mar 2022 08:02

Pratyush wrote:Mort/ Ramana,

We have several interests in this fight.

Agree completely. India has serious implications w.r.t. this war; and this is once in a decade(s) opportunity for India to assert the use of Rupee in International trade.

To this day I have never understood why we are forced to hoard other countries' currency (allowing them to just eprint trillions of dollars/euros overnight)? So they type couple of keystroke in a computer (US Federal reserve) to eprint trillions of dollars in few moments. And then we export them our hard-labor produced goods for that Fiat money.

We should assert our independence from this corrupt system. Many countries are waking upto this epiphany.. not just India.

Not many people realize this, but Indian Rupee used to be an international currency well regarded in several countries and they used to trade via Indian Rupee.. not that long ago (I believe back in 30s, 40s, 50s)

A Deshmukh · Post by **A Deshmukh** » 17 Mar 2022 09:22

yogeshkumar wrote:(I believe back in 30s, 40s, 50s)

till 1960s....UAE used Rupee till 1966

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Mar 2022 09:38

vinod wrote:
ManuJ wrote:Steep Russian climbdown has begun.
From "total denazification and demilitarization" to just a guarantee of neutrality without demilitarization or regime change.

Ukraine is cleverly asking for the same security guarantees that NATO membership would have given it.
This would provide it with equivalent benefits but without the extra burden that steep military expenditure currently imposes on it.
I think it is a negotiation tactic. Russians know Americans won't agree to a cease fire and would push for Ukrainians to fight further. I would still think few more weeks of fighting before Ukraine throws in the towel ignoring US. Till they cast aside US advice, the war will continue. Russia knows that too well. Meanwhile, they have to clear the area with minimal civilian deaths and infrastructure damage. Tough ask.

Yes, it's a standard negotiation tactic to make tougher demands to begin with ( just as Ukraine did). As I posted earlier, Russia will settle for what it asked for all along i.e Implementation of Minsk 2 (which has a clause of no NATO membership) and recognition of Crimea's status. Russia has, in fact, gone further, by saying Ukraine will be officially neutral with a smaller sized armed forces and guarantees for the rights of the Russian minority. Rather than make Zenensky a martyr by removing him, he would be left to explain to Ukrainians why they had a warm when they could have agreed to Russia's demands without one.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Mar 2022 09:51

John wrote:
dnivas wrote:
What dubious sites are you talking about? Could you please let me know?
Tell me one news that was fake, anything that was not confirmed I pointed it out ? But WSJ article seems accurate not sure you have anything that says otherwise (sure there may be some exaggerations as with any retelling) and also you are saying Kherson base attack never happened I posted video from Russian officer posted widely in pro Russian telegram groups ..?

You can't blindly say everything is fake just because you don't like the outcome. You have to consume all data points even if you are not happy with end result and use your judgment.

I have followed the fighting in Voznesensk, from both Russian and Western sides.
Assuming the WSJ article is correct, it talks of an estimated (according to Ukraine) 100 Russian dead, of which 10 bodies were recovered.
That can hardly be called `the worst rout of the war'.

If you see either a Western or Russian map, Voznesensk is some distance away from the front (it always was). You can't have a major tank battle taking place 50 km away from the front. As I posted earlier (the Russians acknowledge it) there was an attempt to seize the bridge south of Voznesensk, by paras/ airborne assault and have the ground forces link up. It was a high risk gamble and it failed, as the ground forces could not advance. Whether the paras all died, or evacuated by helicopter (which is why helicopters were at Kherson airbase) is not known.

Sachin · Post by **Sachin** » 17 Mar 2022 09:55

A bit confused. What is the final stand of US? Looks like they do not really want to push India, but would prefer India towing US lines.
Joe Biden bans Russian oil imports amid Ukraine crisis
India prepares to buy crude from Russia; US says no breach of sanctions, 'but history will judge'

bala · Post by **bala** » 17 Mar 2022 09:59

Please don't give any credence to WSJ/NYT/WaPO/MsNBC/CNN/BBC/DerSpiegel and other news articles. These people who write articles are not the brightest bulbs in America or Europe, they are purposely arm-twisted to write slanted nonsense, no one reads their articles anymore. The other thing they do is that 1 team writes an article and they cross post the same damn article in multiple publication as if it is gospel truth. This cross-posting is to reduce cost of publication and keep news uniform so that all people are lulled into believing it to be true since everyone is saying the same.

Y. Kanan · Post by **Y. Kanan** » 17 Mar 2022 10:07

US dumping more fuel on the fire:

US sending 100 Switchblade suicide drones to Ukraine in $800 million package
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u- ... np1taskbar

These are very nasty little kamikaze drones that are carried by infantry, and I doubt the Russians would have any effective way to counter them. Russia needs to get serious about attacking these arms shipments. That cruise missile strike on Lviv 2 days ago was a good start.

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 17 Mar 2022 10:10

Ok, i think we should get a little careful here. I'm not sure why so many people are cheering for Russia here.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Mar 2022 10:13

Y. Kanan wrote:US dumping more fuel on the fire:

US sending 100 Switchblade suicide drones to Ukraine in $800 million package
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/u- ... np1taskbar

These are very nasty little kamikaze drones that are carried by infantry, and I doubt the Russians would have any effective way to counter them. Russia needs to get serious about attacking these arms shipments. That cruise missile strike on Lviv 2 days ago was a good start.

Do we have something similar?

bala · Post by **bala** » 17 Mar 2022 10:16

I watched Maj-Gen Bakshi and Ambassador Soni talk in the video posted above. Lots of nuggets of information gleaned - tis a must watch video. Always impressed with the caliber of high ranking officers in the Armed forces, somehow India bubbles up the cream of the crop. Bakshi said something that rings true: he said, "America instigated Ukraine to fight Russia and Joker Xiden very clearly left them high and dry by not engaging. So America wants the fight with Russia to the last Ukrainian death". Soni says that the Ukranians have been lulled into easy life by the Americans, given all kinds of incentives that are essentially against the Russians. Bakshi says that 40% Europe gas supply is from Russia and that Germany was buying at 218 per 1000 cu ft now shot up to 1000 per 1000 cu ft. This is not sustainable for Germany. Soni claims that Ukranians in the West too on average have a spouse that is Russian or some family connection. They have India culture clubs all over the place and a special place in their heart for Raj Kapoor and Mithun C. US/West put special effort (like the BIFs of India) to divide Ukranians and make them apart from Russia.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Mar 2022 10:24

bala wrote:I watched Maj-Gen Bakshi and Ambassador Soni talk in the video posted above. Lots of nuggets of information gleaned - tis a must watch video. Always impressed with the caliber of high ranking officers in the Armed forces, somehow India bubbles up the cream of the crop. Bakshi said something that rings true: he said, "America instigated Ukraine to fight Russia and Joker Xiden very clearly left them high and dry by not engaging. So America wants the fight with Russia to the last Ukrainian death". Soni says that the Ukranians have been lulled into easy life by the Americans, given all kinds of incentives that are essentially against the Russians. Bakshi says that 40% Europe gas supply is from Russia and that Germany was buying at 218 per 1000 cu ft now shot up to 1000 per 1000 cu ft. This is not sustainable for Germany. Soni claims that Ukranians in the West too on average have a spouse that is Russian or some family connection. They have India culture clubs all over the place and a special place in their heart for Raj Kapoor and Mithun C. US/West put special effort (like the BIFs of India) to divide Ukranians and make them apart from Russia.

What is the new information here?

Gen Bakshi is one of the more articulate ones. However, I would disagree with your statement that the cream rises to the top in the armed forces on a regular basis. For a forward and original thinking officer to rise up you need a lot of stars to align!

If you can please read On the Psychology of Military Incompetence by Norman Dixon.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Mar 2022 11:07

vimal wrote:Ok, i think we should get a little careful here. I'm not sure why so many people are cheering for Russia here.

I don't think that any member is cheering for Russia.

There is an understanding of why Russia is doing what it is. That is fundamentally different from cheering for Russian.

Remember that this thread was started in 2015 and that it is the second thread on the matter. So there is a fair amount of background information available to the regular members of the form. Something that is not available to a mago man who is reliant on MSM for news.

Having said all the above. Personally I am Anti Ukraine in this fight.

Because of the political and diplomatic immaturity in form of suffering 2 US backed coup in under 10 years. 2004, 2014. The presence of Nazis in all levels of government. The unwillingness to co exist and accomodate ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. The progroms against Roma post 2014.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 17 Mar 2022 11:47

Pratyush wrote:
vimal wrote:Ok, i think we should get a little careful here. I'm not sure why so many people are cheering for Russia here.
I don't think that any member is cheering for Russia.

There is an understanding of why Russia is doing what it is. That is fundamentally different from cheering for Russian.

Remember that this thread was started in 2015 and that it is the second thread on the matter. So there is a fair amount of background information available to the regular members of the form. Something that is not available to a mago man who is reliant on MSM for news.

Having said all the above. Personally I am Anti Ukraine in this fight.

Because of the political and diplomatic immaturity in form of suffering 2 US backed coup in under 10 years. 2004, 2014. The presence of Nazis in all levels of government. The unwillingness to co exist and accomodate ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. The progroms against Roma post 2014.

Well put sir

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 17 Mar 2022 12:15

How is life affected by sanctions in Russia from one guy's perspective.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Mar 2022 12:19

Pratyush wrote:
vimal wrote:Ok, i think we should get a little careful here. I'm not sure why so many people are cheering for Russia here.
I don't think that any member is cheering for Russia.

There is an understanding of why Russia is doing what it is. That is fundamentally different from cheering for Russian.

Remember that this thread was started in 2015 and that it is the second thread on the matter. So there is a fair amount of background information available to the regular members of the form. Something that is not available to a mago man who is reliant on MSM for news.

Having said all the above. Personally I am Anti Ukraine in this fight.

Because of the political and diplomatic immaturity in form of suffering 2 US backed coup in under 10 years. 2004, 2014. The presence of Nazis in all levels of government. The unwillingness to co exist and accomodate ethnic Russians living in Ukraine. The progroms against Roma post 2014.

Well said. I'd like to put the same thing differently.
We need not agree with Russia's reasons for invading (in my opinion it violates International law), but its important to understand why they did it.
It's Putin's 5th war as President so I would credit him with being rational and having some understanding of the war planning process, especially since he's been successful earlier.

I've lived in Russia and worked in the Ukraine 2002-5. I have affection for the people of both countries, which were no different than the people of neighboring Indian states, with the same levels of corruption and democracy. It's unfortunate that the West has suckered both countries into fighting this war (Russia reacting to what Ukraine did).

The only country's interest I'm concerned about is mine. It is in our interest that the war ends quickly (which is more possible with a Russian,
than a Ukrainian victory). The longer it lasts, the further Russia moves into China's camp and the less it will be a counter balance to NATO (I see a balance of power as being important for global stability).

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 17 Mar 2022 12:21

5th war under Putin?
Chechenya
Georgia
Syria
Ukraine.

Did I miss any?

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 17 Mar 2022 12:25

Perhaps he is counting the 1st Chechen war as Putin war?

Or this could be a typo.

kit · Post by **kit** » 17 Mar 2022 12:36

vimal wrote:Ok, i think we should get a little careful here. I'm not sure why so many people are cheering for Russia here.

why should so many people cheer for USA ? ( make no mistake , this is a proxy conflict of US !.. )

Baikul · Post by **Baikul** » 17 Mar 2022 12:57

Whether one’s sympathetic to Ukraine or Russia, a few trends are clear IMO.

1. That - leave aside the Donbas region and perhaps some
pockets - the Ukrainian population by and large are opposed to the Russian intervention. Zelenskyy has national acceptance as a war leader. Centuries of intermarriage and association with Russia aside, this is a ‘popular war’ for the Ukrainians.

2. At the same time, despite news about anti- war protests in Russia, the bulk of the Russian population seems to be supportive of Putin. Whether this will continue after sanctions start to bite (if they bite) remains to be seen. But it doesn’t pay to discount the patriotism of the average Russian.

3. As some here had predicted early on, at minimum this war isn’t going as planned for Russia. Interviews with Russian POWS (if you believe them) repeatedly suggest that the Russians expected a different kind of welcome from the locals.

Russia has lost 4 general officers in less than 3 weeks; personal leadership or valour aside, that surely can’t be a good sign. Ukrainian cities are being levelled by artillery and missile fire, which means that the gloves are off.

Beyond that I guess it’s one’s interpretation. Mine is that the western powers have managed to get Russia into a bear trap. They’ve degraded Russian hardware on the cheap (drones, ATGMs, MANPADS), denied total air dominance, and turned it into a war of attrition. I see no positive medium to long term outcome for Russia.

Zelenskyy is not in a position to submit unilaterally and Putin IMO cannot enforce a sustained Russian presence to call it an outright win.

I definitely don’t think Putin is walking away from this without at least selling this as a win to his people. I also don’t know what both sides would consider a minimum acceptable solutions. So far they seem to be at cross purposes.

dnivas · Post by **dnivas** » 17 Mar 2022 13:39

I am still not sure why we are using western standards of losses here in this forum. The western armies are bullies who have been fighting the last 30-40 years with an obscenely unequal force structure and then call the ones they vanquished cowards , they now run back at the first sign of a equal foe.

Not six months ago these bullies were going ballistic over false news about Afghan bounties over US/ NATO soldiers and now are paying billions to dumb Ukrainians [my wife of 12 years is West Ukrainian, so I know how the guys are] to kill Russian soldiers. The hypocrisy is just sickening .

All that aside, the worst is fellow brown people are now cheering for the demise of a nation that has consistently voted for us in the UNSC. I mean i understand you are making a living there, but at least have some duty towards your motherland. Once Russia has been broken up, what do you think is going to happen when India makes a move against Pukistan. who will support us at the UN. Russia should hopedully remember how we abstained during this conflict and back us up. Will you then be dissecting losses when Indian soldiers die and do armchair generalling?

Will the esteemed members who are harping on the losses do the same when India attacks pakistan. Are you the same type of characters who give up when a brigade or a unit of paratroopers give up their life trying to be vanguard.

Russia is doing to Ukraine what India will do to terroristan soon and it's just numbing to see fellow Indians cheer NATO warmongers.

Russia does not care about losses when the existence of their state is at stake just like India will not be, when the status of Bharat and its civilization is at stake.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 17 Mar 2022 14:04

Thakur_B wrote:5th war under Putin?
Chechenya
Georgia
Syria
Ukraine.

Did I miss any?

5 including this one. I'm counting the Crimean intervention and Donbass operations of 2014-5 as one.

vinod · Post by **vinod** » 17 Mar 2022 14:11

vimal wrote:Ok, i think we should get a little careful here. I'm not sure why so many people are cheering for Russia here.

Would cheering over here make any difference to the end result?

What is of interest is making sure we understand the battle tactics and prepare for the evolving new geo political scenario.

The main thing is whatever Russis is going through, India is not very far behind, in terms of nefarious schemes of US.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 17 Mar 2022 14:18

{Deleted. None of your personal psychoanalysis of BRF posters is acceptable material here.}