Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

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ShivS
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by ShivS »

John wrote:Looks like severe weather might affected the FCR radar performance?

The Moskva has giant blind spot for its S-300 system only 180 degree coverage it uses outdated OSA Sam to cover that blind spot. It’s ironic Russia noted they shot down a drone a day ago by Grigorovich class frigate (Talwar class sister ship), I think Ukranians where probing the defenses with drones.

Speculation that Crimea could start coming under Tochka and Drone attacks with Moskva which was providing area air defense gone.

This will hurt in propaganda terms and military terms. Seems the Ukrainian Navy pulled off a brilliant operation.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by ShivS »

ramana wrote:Why is Russia losing so many tanks in Ukraine?

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/wh ... ar-AAW5XIW

My comments:
Despite overall tone, it has lessons for India.
PLA also has Combat Batallion Groups as the main formations.
Armour units expect a certain failure rate if equipment depending on the terrain, age of the tanks and the type. These units are equipped to repair or send to workshops for repair with organic recovery assets - repair and return is key to maintain force effectiveness.

The real issue is when the actual break down rates go way above the expected rates due to equipment being rushed to war, poor training and maintain or even terrain - then the decline in force effectiveness can be dramatic.

As a rule, with 20 year old tanks Russian tanks over rough terrain (not clay/mud) you will find 15-20% of the tanks will need repair every 100 km and the recovery infra is designed to cope with this load. Issue is if this number is beyond expectations.

These parameters are studied by most high quality armoured units - both the IA and the PA used to do lots of work on these issues.

What are the heads under which the IA should examine this conflict?
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Pratyush »

I remember reading something thing by Ravi Rikhiya about operation brasstacks and the breakdown or armour due to length of deployment in the field.

He was reporting that nearly 50 % of the armour had broken down by the time the excercise ended.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Deans »

Pratyush wrote:I remember reading something thing by Ravi Rikhiya about operation brasstacks and the breakdown or armour due to length of deployment in the field.

He was reporting that nearly 50 % of the armour had broken down by the time the excercise ended.
As Shiv mentioned, tanks will break down at some point, particularly, over a long deployment.
What's important is how many are repaired and in what time. The shortcoming in the Russian army is the very low experience of its tank crews
and the questionable quality of tanks taken out from storage.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Deans »

ShivS wrote: This will hurt in propaganda terms and military terms. Seems the Ukrainian Navy pulled off a brilliant operation.
The Russians had a 16 ship task force deployed off the coast of Syria AFTER the Ukraine war started. I don't see why they could not have moved this group to the Black sea before the war (repairs and replenishment would have been a good excuse). The 16 ships com[rise 8 warships and 8 smaller/support ships. Only 5 were from the Black sea fleet. The ships cannot cross the Turkish Dardanelles strait after Turkey declared that the
Ukraine operation was a war.
The aircraft carrier, Admiral Kuznetsov is undergoing a refit for the last 4 years, but its SU-33 aircraft could have bene based in the Crimea. This would have given the Russian navy a more modern anti missile defense, the ability to carry out another 1000 sorties by now (assuming 12 aircraft available * 2 sorties / day) and more long range anti surface missiles. Makes me wonder to what extent the Russian navy was consulted.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by brar_w »

ShivS wrote:
John wrote:Looks like severe weather might affected the FCR radar performance?

The Moskva has giant blind spot for its S-300 system only 180 degree coverage it uses outdated OSA Sam to cover that blind spot. It’s ironic Russia noted they shot down a drone a day ago by Grigorovich class frigate (Talwar class sister ship), I think Ukranians where probing the defenses with drones.

Speculation that Crimea could start coming under Tochka and Drone attacks with Moskva which was providing area air defense gone.

This will hurt in propaganda terms and military terms. Seems the Ukrainian Navy pulled off a brilliant operation.
Still some fog to clear on this. Russian reports now claim that they have fought the fire and that the cruiser is buoyant while others (including Lithuania govt via Turkish and other sources) are claiming that it has sunk. US claims that it is afloat but heavily damaged (USAF has ISR assets in the black sea, including a Global Hawk currently there). I suppose if it was being tugged back we should see satellite images if it being docked fairly soon once the weather there clears.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by vinod »

There was also an SSO operation conducted to blow up a bridge on the way to Izyum. It seems when the convoy reached the bridge they blew it up along with convoy.

Not big difference to the war, but a slow down in supply and another morale booster.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by vinod »

While there have been reports of Russian almost 40k soldiers being put out of battle due to various reasons, like death,captured or injury. Is there any real estimates of Ukrainians?
One of largest armies in Europe is now looking for reinforcements means that many have been wiped out, but no genuinely believable numbers are available.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by brar_w »

vinod wrote:While there have been reports of Russian almost 40k soldiers being put out of battle due to various reasons, like death,captured or injury. Is there any real estimates of Ukrainians?
One of largest armies in Europe is now looking for reinforcements means that many have been wiped out, but no genuinely believable numbers are available.
Probably a very high number on the Ukrainian side likely similar or even higher than estimated or Russian side. But Ukraine is the defender so can mobilize more and also can absorb more casualties relative to the invading force.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by John »

brar_w wrote:
vinod wrote:While there have been reports of Russian almost 40k soldiers being put out of battle due to various reasons, like death,captured or injury. Is there any real estimates of Ukrainians?
One of largest armies in Europe is now looking for reinforcements means that many have been wiped out, but no genuinely believable numbers are available.
Probably a very high number on the Ukrainian side likely similar or even higher than estimated or Russian side. But Ukraine is the defender so can mobilize more and also can absorb more casualties relative to the invading force.
Last US estimate was 2k-4k dead from Mid march (at the same time Russian estimate was 10k dead) and this included initial engagements in Kherson, barrack bombing and Russian artillery/air strikes in Mariupol & Kyiv. Could have slow down for Ukr as Ukraine as mostly done ambushes and mostly moved out barracks coupled with lack of air strikes around Kyiv. Only question mark is Mariupol, no one knows extent of Ukr casualties there.

Ukraine has avoided a direct large engagement with Russia and avoided a bloody siege battle to retake the north as Russia just withdraw. Russia commitment to east may be a chance to trap Ukr soldiers defeating Donetsk and force that.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Deans »

vinod wrote:While there have been reports of Russian almost 40k soldiers being put out of battle due to various reasons, like death,captured or injury. Is there any real estimates of Ukrainians?
One of largest armies in Europe is now looking for reinforcements means that many have been wiped out, but no genuinely believable numbers are available.
The `teeth' of the Russian army in the Ukraine is the 100 odd TBGs and about 20k men from the Donetsk/Luhansk militia and Chechen infantry.
That's around 100,000 men.
Even if casualties are around 20,000, a 20% loss of the strength of a combat unit (those in the army will know better) can seriously degrade it.
Combining 2 units at 50% strength (which is what Russia is attempting to do) does not give the combat effectiveness of either of the original units.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by bala »

[Deleted]
Thread is about tactics not opiuos.
Please observe discipline.

Ramana
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by ks_sachin »

bala wrote:
John wrote:Last US estimate was 2k-4k dead from Mid march
The US Deep State has decided that they want more Ukraines and Russians dead and they have their man elensky presiding over the destruction. There must be internal glee (by their presiding lunatic) at the way things are unfolding. More munition support by NATO only prolongs the agony of defeat that Ukraine will be facing.
Mate this is a thread on combat tactics and understanding operations and learning some lessons. Kindly desist from such conspiracy theories or take it to the other thread. So of us here are interested only in the military aspects of this campaign.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by sohamn »

^^^^ I concur, let's leave aside the politics and unverified theories out of this thread. Only war strategies, tactics, lessons learned, technical issues etc should be discussed in this thread.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by sohamn »

ShivS wrote:
John wrote:Looks like severe weather might affected the FCR radar performance?

The Moskva has giant blind spot for its S-300 system only 180 degree coverage it uses outdated OSA Sam to cover that blind spot. It’s ironic Russia noted they shot down a drone a day ago by Grigorovich class frigate (Talwar class sister ship), I think Ukranians where probing the defenses with drones.

Speculation that Crimea could start coming under Tochka and Drone attacks with Moskva which was providing area air defense gone.

This will hurt in propaganda terms and military terms. Seems the Ukrainian Navy pulled off a brilliant operation.

Moskova had the Fregat 3D radar, and has individual FCR for S300, OSA and its 6 CWIS systems, Moskova also has Radar jamming + chaff providing another layer of passive defence. I also read somewhere that Ukraine used a single modified Kh35 (Uran) subsonic AShM to take down Moskova.

I am surprised that a single legacy gen AShM could take down a 13Ton Cruiser with multi layer anti missile air defence system. Either these systems (which Indian Navy also uses ) is antiquated or its a command / control breakdown with no one paying attention to threats. No matter, what Indian navy should take note.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Zynda »

I feel like the same Russian MIL equipments would fare better in Indian scenarios due to perhaps better training, co-ordination & tactics etc. And its also good that we are slowly moving away from Russian sensors to either Western (Israeli/EU) or Indian ones. I know the losses threshold is different for Russians when compared to the West & there are host of other factors in play here which should be taken in to consideration for an objective analysis but Russians are starting to look at little incompetent when it comes to tactics in this warfare.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by brar_w »

I could be wrong but the Moskova would be one of their most heavily equipped ship in terms of number of interceptors, guns etc etc which makes it even more puzzling given that it would have been a very one dimensional threat (Ukraine lacks submarines or a working surface navy) or an AF with a lot of capability or experience in Maritime attack missions.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by gpurewal »

Zynda wrote:I feel like the same Russian MIL equipments would fare better in Indian scenarios due to perhaps better training, co-ordination & tactics etc.
I read, or heard somewhere that when the IAF first sent its pilots to the USSR for training on the Mig-21, the IAF pilots were shocked to hear that the Soviet trainers were pushing against pilot initiatives, and placing emphasis on obeying orders and instructions from the GCI controllers.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Rakesh »

That is true gpurewal. The chickens have come home to roost for Russia.

The strike on Moskva is a humiliation for the Russian Navy.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by John »

sohamn wrote:Moskova had the Fregat 3D radar, and has individual FCR for S300, OSA and its 6 CWIS systems, Moskova also has Radar jamming + chaff providing another layer of passive defence. I also read somewhere that Ukraine used a single modified Kh35 (Uran) subsonic AShM to take down Moskova.
Cross posting what I think might have happened.,

It does look like they were testing the air defense only a day before Essen looks to have fired two at TB.2 looks like it didn’t hit anything (not a great news for our own Shtil-1).

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1514 ... rM6Zz1AuGA

Most likely they tried the same thing but this time fired the Ashm in general area, I suspect since TB.2 was in other side the RIF air defense FCR on Moskva was pointed at it. Why?

First of all Keep in mind Moskva has huge 180 degree blind spot to front of the ship with its RIF system (naval S-300) so it has to orient the ship to the target as it has only one RIF fire control radar. So if it is facing the TB.2 coming from one side it is completely blind to any missile coming from other side. Luckily it has Ak-630 to cover that weakness but it might not have worked or was disabled just like Israel Hanit incident where the Israeli sailors left phalanx disabled. Also keep in mind a missile like Neptune is not enough to sink or cripple it even Hanit was able to survive the hit with C-802 AshM but ammo explosion from a fire potentially can.

This is by no chance unknown to others back in soviet days USN pilots practiced to exploit it and Ukranians built it so we’re also well aware of it.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Rakesh »

John wrote:Cross posting what I think might have happened.
John, can you please put the poster's name when replying? Easier for readers who are following the thread. I have edited your post.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by brar_w »

The missile cruiser "Moscow" sank when towed to its destination in a storm due to damage to the hull received from a fire from the detonation of ammunition. This was reported on Thursday by the Ministry of Defense of the Russian Federation.
https://tass.ru/armiya-i-opk/14383383
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by John »

Rakesh wrote:
John wrote:Cross posting what I think might have happened.
John, can you please put the poster's name when replying? Easier for readers who are following the thread. I have edited your post.
Sure.

As for Moskva, Russians are now claiming it sank while being towed. Whole incident is bizarre.

https://twitter.com/elintnews/status/15 ... FdJUgckEEQ
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by brar_w »

John wrote:
Rakesh wrote: John, can you please put the poster's name when replying? Easier for readers who are following the thread. I have edited your post.
Sure.

As for Moskva, Russians are now claiming it sank while being towed. Whole incident is bizarre.

https://twitter.com/elintnews/status/15 ... FdJUgckEEQ
It most likely did sink while it was being towed as the US officials confirmed that the original fire had not sunk it and that it was afloat and perhaps being moved. Given they’ve had a Global Hawk in the area for the last several hours they would have an excellent picture of what is happening. This lines up with what Russia has claimed. This is a major loss and not sure the Russian Navy will be in a position to replace this for several decades. It is also being reported that several other RuNavy ships have moved back and are now standing off given the threat. Not sure how much inference one can draw, but if the flagship vessel could not deal with TB2, or Neptune one can't really place a lot of confidence on the rest of the fleet. This is worth monitoring given recent cryptic announcements that western AshM's may possibly be headed to Ukraine.
Last edited by brar_w on 15 Apr 2022 03:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Atmavik »

Ukranians attack Russian convoy and destroy a bridge near Izyum

https://liveuamap.com/pics/2022/04/14/22425789_2.jpg
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by sohamn »

John wrote:
sohamn wrote:Moskova had the Fregat 3D radar, and has individual FCR for S300, OSA and its 6 CWIS systems, Moskova also has Radar jamming + chaff providing another layer of passive defence. I also read somewhere that Ukraine used a single modified Kh35 (Uran) subsonic AShM to take down Moskova.
Cross posting what I think might have happened.,

It does look like they were testing the air defense only a day before Essen looks to have fired two at TB.2 looks like it didn’t hit anything (not a great news for our own Shtil-1).

https://twitter.com/ralee85/status/1514 ... rM6Zz1AuGA

Most likely they tried the same thing but this time fired the Ashm in general area, I suspect since TB.2 was in other side the RIF air defense FCR on Moskva was pointed at it. Why?

First of all Keep in mind Moskva has huge 180 degree blind spot to front of the ship with its RIF system (naval S-300) so it has to orient the ship to the target as it has only one RIF fire control radar. So if it is facing the TB.2 coming from one side it is completely blind to any missile coming from other side. Luckily it has Ak-630 to cover that weakness but it might not have worked or was disabled just like Israel Hanit incident where the Israeli sailors left phalanx disabled. Also keep in mind a missile like Neptune is not enough to sink or cripple it even Hanit was able to survive the hit with C-802 AshM but ammo explosion from a fire potentially can.

This is by no chance unknown to others back in soviet days USN pilots practiced to exploit it and Ukranians built it so we’re also well aware of it.
Can you clarify if the blind spot is with the S300 or with the FCS? Any why. What is the problem with having just one FCR?

Also, why can't the Air search radar i.e. Fregat pick up the missile for early detection? Won't the ship crew have enough time to enable the CWIS ?
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by John »

sohamn wrote:
Can you clarify if the blind spot is with the S300 or with the FCS? Any why. What is the problem with having just one FCR?

Also, why can't the Air search radar i.e. Fregat pick up the missile for early detection? Won't the ship crew have enough time to enable the CWIS ?
So blind spot exists with any command/semi active (incl track via missile) guidance , for example with a land based S-300 battery which uses track via missile guidance it can intercept simultaneous targets that are in same azimuth of engagement radar.

To make up for that weakness you layer it with additional engagement radars so you can handle a saturation attack or have layered air defense. But it’s not as big problem for land based system (that doesn’t mean it hasn’t exploited see Israeli strikes in Syria or Azerbaijan strikes on Armenia S-300) as it is for naval ships where a single platform might have to operate alone and can be targeted.

When Soviets decided to navalize S-300 they had to adapt the monstrous engagement radar as well for naval purpose and nothing short of cruiser could carry even one. So this goes back our saturation attack point that means you can only intercept targets in one plane and to make matters worse the size of radar (top dome) meant it cannot be mounted on mast. So the radar is located to the aft this location meant the superstructure will effectively obstruct visibility to any targets (Kirov has two radars for this reason).

That’s why Delhi’s which uses Shtil which is based on Buk (uses semi active guidance) have 4 Orekh FCR (even though land based variant has only 1) to better deal with such saturation attacks, of course with Shtil you can have many FCR since it is smaller radar since it’s range is only 30 or so km vs 100+ for RIF.

As for why didn’t Fregat detect it earlier keep in mind it uses very old version of Fregat, if it can detect an Ashm even 15 km away I would be impressed (less than a minute warning). If ship and front dome where pointed at TB2. The crew had to be on point and immediately refocus on new threat (they didn’t expect Ukraine to fire AshM) so they likely weren’t and by the time they were able to realize the threat it was likely too late given the time to re orient the ship and the radar.

But I would caution I am guessing this is what might have happened based on social media posts. For example with INS Hanit there was lot of theories on why Barak-1 and phalanx failed in the end it turned out the crew switched off defenses..
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by sohamn »

^^^^ Good information and analysis.

Wiki says that the AShM was launched 60-65 nautical miles / approx 100 kms inshore. Which means that it covered the distance in 10-15 mins and the ship was totally unprepared. Crew Resource Management also comes to question - as the crew couldn't contain the fire even after many hours of the initial explosion.

Where I am super surprised is why would they switch off their CWIS (the ship had 6) especially because it had a seperate FCS.

Hopefully, our modern ships like P15s and P17s wont have this problem because of 3 dimensional solid state radar that can track threats with 360 degree coverage. Also, may be rethought is if we need seperate FCS for our CWIS like Goalkeeper.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by ManuJ »

Apparently the Turkish TB-2 drones were used to distract Moskva's defenses and the Neptune missiles came in undetected.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Atmavik »

ManuJ wrote:Apparently the Turkish TB-2 drones were used to distract Moskva's defenses and the Neptune missiles came in undetected.
Slowly but surely the Turkish TB-2 has had an impact. Armed drones do have a future in modern warfare
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Pratyush »

I have trouble buying the argument that this ship will have a blind spot in the forward quarter. Just because the Sam launcher is located at the aft end of the ship. Because the launcher is VLC. That by default is designed to provide 360 coverage.

The issue could be with the training of the crew rather than the equipment.

I am reminded of Falkland ship losses to the exocet.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:I have trouble buying the argument that this ship will have a blind spot in the forward quarter. Just because the Sam launcher is located at the aft end of the ship. Because the launcher is VLC. That by default is designed to provide 360 coverage.

The issue could be with the training of the crew rather than the equipment.

I am reminded of Falkland ship losses to the exocet.
It is not SAM launcher it is Top dome radar notice where it is placed there is reason Kirov class has two of them.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Pratyush »

Still makes no sense.

1) Why will Russians design and install a radar without any 360 rotation capacity. Not even TSP is so stupid to build something that is so deliberately limited to just one hemisphere.

2) Kirov having 2 just means that it has more fire control channels available as compared to a Slava. That's logical in larger scheme of things as Slava was designed to be a cheaper counter part to Kirov. But limiting it's anti air to aft 180 of the ship is a misleading conclusion.

The US Navy equivalent was the Tico and early Burke. Ticos had 4 designators as compared to 3 for Burke's. While using the same basic radar sets.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by ks_sachin »

Pratyush wrote:Still makes no sense.

1) Why will Russians design and install a radar without any 360 rotation capacity. Not even TSP is so stupid to build something that is so deliberately limited to just one hemisphere.

2) Kirov having 2 just means that it has more fire control channels available as compared to a Slava. That's logical in larger scheme of things as Slava was designed to be a cheaper counter part to Kirov. But limiting it's anti air to aft 180 of the ship is a misleading conclusion.

The US Navy equivalent was the Tico and early Burke. Ticos had 4 designators as compared to 3 for Burke's. While using the same basic radar sets.
Perhaps the aft mount was after a refit where they wanted newer mizziles?
The S300 was developed in 1984 and fitted on Slava class while the Slava itself was commissioned in 1976 or something.
Wiki chacha says.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Pratyush »

That I cannot answer.

I am just saying that something as capable as the navalised S300 varient will not be deliberately limited to just the aft quarter of the ship. By providing it with a radar limited to just aft 180 sphear of the ship.

The basic design of the ship is nearly 40 year's old. We don't know what is the state of servicability of equipment or even the state of training.

If the equipment was not functional then a blind spot or not is meaning less.

If the crew was not well versed in operating the radar then the quality of equipment is immaterial.

If the crew is not trained sufficiently to handle damage control then the fires can get out of control and cook off explosive and propellents of the missiles.

If the chemical composition of the warheads and propellents has decomposed to such a scale where a slight shock can cause an explosion. Then damage control teams and efforts will very quickly be overwhelmed.

What we know for certain is the endemic coruption of the Russian system.

That will make any of the above-mentioned issue a lot worst then it has to be. Resulting in completely unpredictable outcomes.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by gpurewal »

John wrote: It is not SAM launcher it is Top dome radar notice where it is placed there is reason Kirov class has two of them.
From what I can find on Wikipedia, Pyotr Veliky only has 1 x Top Dome and it's located in the aft like on the Slavas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian ... tr_Velikiy
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by ShivS »

This event is puzzling. The Neptune is basically a modernized version of the Harpoon. That means its sub sonic, carries a smallish warhead and uses an active radar seeker in the terminal phase of the flight profile. A ship of this quality should have dealt with one or two missiles of this type quite easily. Something went very wrong.

A capital ship patrolling 70-80 off a hostile coast is taking a risk from shore launched ASM batteries and there is no way the Russians did not appreciate this fact. The radars on the Moskova and its SAMs plus the CIWS should have handled these threats quite capably. So what could have happened?

1. This was an accident. Perhaps a S300 missiles launch malfunctioned and the missile landed on the ship close to the anti ship launchers.
2. There was a saturation attack with multiple Neptune launches and some missiles got thru. As an aside this is the manner in which the Harpoon was designed to function.
3. The Ukaranian forces were really smart and managed to conceal the flight of the missiles behind an island or some other block till is was close to the ship.
4. The Russian armed forces are really bad - awful. Systems were not working or operators were not trained.
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Zynda »

ShivS wrote: The Neptune is basically a modernized version of the Harpoon.
Neptune is an Ukrainian moderinzation of Kh-35 Uran...not Harpoon...and it entered service only around May 2021 :)
John
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Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by John »

Pratyush wrote:Still makes no sense.

1) Why will Russians design and install a radar without any 360 rotation capacity. Not even TSP is so stupid to build something that is so deliberately limited to just one hemisphere.

2) Kirov having 2 just means that it has more fire control channels available as compared to a Slava. That's logical in larger scheme of things as Slava was designed to be a cheaper counter part to Kirov. But limiting it's anti air to aft 180 of the ship is a misleading conclusion.

The US Navy equivalent was the Tico and early Burke. Ticos had 4 designators as compared to 3 for Burke's. While using the same basic radar sets.
Well it is known issue and it is land based system being adopted for naval purpose, they made up for weakness by layering it with OSA and Ak-630. The old world navies guide has pretty good write up on it.

gpurewal wrote:
John wrote: It is not SAM launcher it is Top dome radar notice where it is placed there is reason Kirov class has two of them.
From what I can find on Wikipedia, Pyotr Veliky only has 1 x Top Dome and it's located in the aft like on the Slavas.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian ... tr_Velikiy
As for Pyotr Velikiy it’s unique, it does have two FCR it uses another radar called Tomb Stone in one side. I believe the Soviet plan was to mount variant of Tomb Stone on superstructure, the 4 faces will reduce the need for any rotation. But with development of naval Redut (S-350) it’s no longer needed I was expecting the Russians to replace RIF with Redut on their cruisers. As latter on paper is a superior system, Redut has a interesting development history.
Zynda wrote:
ShivS wrote: The Neptune is basically a modernized version of the Harpoon.
Neptune is an Ukrainian moderinzation of Kh-35 Uran...not Harpoon...and it entered service only around May 2021 :)
Only handful were built, I don’t believe they fully finished the land based radar systems and there was 1 only launcher for it. They may be assembling more as components are locally sourced. But they definitely didn’t have enough for any saturation attack.
Pratyush
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Re: Russian / Ukranian Combat Tactics

Post by Pratyush »

John,

The S300 is designed to deal with a saturation 360 attack.

You are the first one to have discribed it's navalised application as a 180 system. Regardless of the fact it being a land based system being adapted to sea based application. It's not going to lose half of the direction it can protect it self against. The radar and the fire direction system can rotate and they will provide 360 capacity.

Please provide source which states that it is a system that only provides protection in one quadrant.
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