Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
larger volumes bring in economies of scale.
Downstream SMEs will benefit from bigger volumes.
tying up with western MIC (GE engines, missiles, and other add-ons for export variants), reduces risks of sanctions disruption.
Downstream SMEs will benefit from bigger volumes.
tying up with western MIC (GE engines, missiles, and other add-ons for export variants), reduces risks of sanctions disruption.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Today is a RED LETTER day for BR Forum. A truly wonderful and joyous occasion. Reason for celebration is below.
This is from page 1 of this thread, which I am reproducing here below. I just updated the thread, prior to making this post. The updated sections are highlighted in blue. Thanks to X, we finally got official confirmation of the remaining first flights (and the pilots who flew them) of the second Tejas Mk1 squadron. We never got this info due to COVID. No 18 Squadron is now just one aircraft short of full strength. That first flight will happen this year.
I am distributing the mithai. If you guys don't get it, that is your fault
No 18 Flying Bullets Squadron - Squadron Re-Raised on 01 April 2020
Raising CO - Group Captain Manish Tolani
Present CO < Rank > < Name >
Production Line ... HAL Reference Number ... Serial Number ... Aircraft First Flight ... Pilot(s)
• Line 1 ... SP-21 ... LA-5017 ... 17-Mar-2020 ... Air Commodore Kalianda Appaya Muthanna (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-22 ... LA-5018 ... 24-Sep-2020 ... Air Commodore Kalianda Appaya Muthanna (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-23 ... LA-5019 ... 22-Jan-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-24 ... LA-5020 ... 18-Mar-2021 ... Group Captain Ashish Srivastava (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-25 ... LA-5021 ... 26-Mar-2021 ... Group Captain Ashish Srivastava (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-26 ... LA-5022 ... 27-Mar-2021 ... Group Captain Ashish Srivastava (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-27 ... LA-5023 ... 21-Sep-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-28 ... LA-5024 ... 29-Sep-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-29 ... LA-5025 ... 21-Jan-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-30 ... LA-5026 ... 31-Dec-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-31 ... LA-5027 ... 05-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-32 ... LA-5028 ... 18-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-33 ... LA-5029 ... 25-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-34 ... LA-5030 ... 14-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-35 ... LA-5031 ... 27-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-36 ... LA-5032
Year-Over-Year Tejas Mk1 Production & Production Line Performance
*Based on First Flight
• 2014: One Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2015: Zero Production
• 2016: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2017: Three Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2018: Six Aircraft (3 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2019: Four Aircraft (2 from Line 1 and 2 from Line 2)
• 2020: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2021: Seven Aircraft (4 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2022: Six Aircraft (3 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
This is from page 1 of this thread, which I am reproducing here below. I just updated the thread, prior to making this post. The updated sections are highlighted in blue. Thanks to X, we finally got official confirmation of the remaining first flights (and the pilots who flew them) of the second Tejas Mk1 squadron. We never got this info due to COVID. No 18 Squadron is now just one aircraft short of full strength. That first flight will happen this year.
I am distributing the mithai. If you guys don't get it, that is your fault
No 18 Flying Bullets Squadron - Squadron Re-Raised on 01 April 2020
Raising CO - Group Captain Manish Tolani
Present CO < Rank > < Name >
Production Line ... HAL Reference Number ... Serial Number ... Aircraft First Flight ... Pilot(s)
• Line 1 ... SP-21 ... LA-5017 ... 17-Mar-2020 ... Air Commodore Kalianda Appaya Muthanna (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-22 ... LA-5018 ... 24-Sep-2020 ... Air Commodore Kalianda Appaya Muthanna (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-23 ... LA-5019 ... 22-Jan-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-24 ... LA-5020 ... 18-Mar-2021 ... Group Captain Ashish Srivastava (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-25 ... LA-5021 ... 26-Mar-2021 ... Group Captain Ashish Srivastava (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-26 ... LA-5022 ... 27-Mar-2021 ... Group Captain Ashish Srivastava (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-27 ... LA-5023 ... 21-Sep-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-28 ... LA-5024 ... 29-Sep-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-29 ... LA-5025 ... 21-Jan-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-30 ... LA-5026 ... 31-Dec-2021 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-31 ... LA-5027 ... 05-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-32 ... LA-5028 ... 18-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-33 ... LA-5029 ... 25-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-34 ... LA-5030 ... 14-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 2 ... SP-35 ... LA-5031 ... 27-Mar-2022 ... Group Captain Rajeev Joshi (Retd)
• Line 1 ... SP-36 ... LA-5032
Year-Over-Year Tejas Mk1 Production & Production Line Performance
*Based on First Flight
• 2014: One Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2015: Zero Production
• 2016: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2017: Three Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2018: Six Aircraft (3 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2019: Four Aircraft (2 from Line 1 and 2 from Line 2)
• 2020: Two Aircraft (Line 1)
• 2021: Seven Aircraft (4 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
• 2022: Six Aircraft (3 from Line 1 and 3 from Line 2)
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
2022 will also see seven aircraft delivered, as SP-35 (LA-5031) will have her first flight this year. The next milestone are the eight Tejas trainers for the two Mk1 squadrons.
2021 was the second wave of COVID and HAL still managed to do first flights of seven aircraft in that year. They will repeat the feat this year as well. See how the year-over-year deliveries have gone up from 2020 (first wave of COVID).
Seven aircraft/year is the highest that the lines have ever delivered since 2014. With Mk1A that is planned to go up to 14 aircraft/year. As a comparison, the 114 MRFA deal is supposed to be at the rate of 12 - 13 aircraft/year.
March 2022 was a busy month for HAL. Five first fights in one month!
2021 was the second wave of COVID and HAL still managed to do first flights of seven aircraft in that year. They will repeat the feat this year as well. See how the year-over-year deliveries have gone up from 2020 (first wave of COVID).
Seven aircraft/year is the highest that the lines have ever delivered since 2014. With Mk1A that is planned to go up to 14 aircraft/year. As a comparison, the 114 MRFA deal is supposed to be at the rate of 12 - 13 aircraft/year.
March 2022 was a busy month for HAL. Five first fights in one month!
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Awesome. Great job.
The HAL line for Tejas is
5+3 Bengluru+8 second line(new)
Total 16/year.
The HAL line for Tejas is
5+3 Bengluru+8 second line(new)
Total 16/year.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Well said Ramana-ji. The lines have achieved barely 50% capacity for 2021 and 2022 because of the abysmally low order of the Mk1 (just 32 single seaters + 8 twin seaters). Had this been a 123 order up front - instead of the piecemeal 40 Mk1s and 83 Mk1As - the delivery would have been much quicker. And the Mk1A upgrade could have commenced, once the deliveries were completed. But hindsight is always 20/20.
Looking ahead, the 83 Mk1A order will increase that production capacity to 16/year, but it can go even higher IMVHO. An export order will boost that number to well beyond 16/year. Production capacity has a direct correlation to order size. This can be achieved by increasing the efficiencies of the present lines or by adding new lines. This is excellent real world experience for HAL who is the final integrator, for all the Tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers who manufacture the parts, for the customer (IAF) that gets airframes quicker, for the economy, for jobs and for every other possible reason that we can think of. The F-16 production of the 1980s (30 aircraft per month) and the current line at Merignac for the Rafale (from 11/yr to 24/yr) are good examples of production capacity in relation to orders.
Yet another reason why the IAF must order 200 Tejas Mk2s. Please do not repeat the mistake of the Mk1 and Mk1A contracts. A large order placed NOW, gets the ball rolling for all the industries who have to tool up to meet this demand. Orders are worth their weight in gold.
Looking ahead, the 83 Mk1A order will increase that production capacity to 16/year, but it can go even higher IMVHO. An export order will boost that number to well beyond 16/year. Production capacity has a direct correlation to order size. This can be achieved by increasing the efficiencies of the present lines or by adding new lines. This is excellent real world experience for HAL who is the final integrator, for all the Tier 1, 2 and 3 suppliers who manufacture the parts, for the customer (IAF) that gets airframes quicker, for the economy, for jobs and for every other possible reason that we can think of. The F-16 production of the 1980s (30 aircraft per month) and the current line at Merignac for the Rafale (from 11/yr to 24/yr) are good examples of production capacity in relation to orders.
Yet another reason why the IAF must order 200 Tejas Mk2s. Please do not repeat the mistake of the Mk1 and Mk1A contracts. A large order placed NOW, gets the ball rolling for all the industries who have to tool up to meet this demand. Orders are worth their weight in gold.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Orders are the life blood of production. Think of all the private sector suppliers, they need to take loans and invest in production. They must have some assurance of profit. A person who is guaranteed salary till retirement, never understands or does not care for these concepts.
How many of us will build a house put all our savings and take EMI, if we know it will be mostly empty after 3 years? But then again if the decision-making ecosystem has a chance to earn commission abroad with settling children in Dubai, Singapore, US and Europe...then perhaps they are putting personal interests above the national interest and have a huge media ecosystem backing them.
How many of us will build a house put all our savings and take EMI, if we know it will be mostly empty after 3 years? But then again if the decision-making ecosystem has a chance to earn commission abroad with settling children in Dubai, Singapore, US and Europe...then perhaps they are putting personal interests above the national interest and have a huge media ecosystem backing them.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
How did I miss this nearly 2.5 year old article?
Flying & fighting in HAL Tejas: Interview with test pilot Rajeev Joshi
https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... eev-joshi/
25 Jan 2020
Flying & fighting in HAL Tejas: Interview with test pilot Rajeev Joshi
https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... eev-joshi/
25 Jan 2020
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
I loved "mature enough to fight, youthful enough to adapt" thanks Rakesh garu
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
We all did.. And i visit hushkit fairly frequentlyRakesh wrote:How did I miss this nearly 2.5 year old article?
Flying & fighting in HAL Tejas: Interview with test pilot Rajeev Joshi
https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... eev-joshi/
25 Jan 2020
I will try to blame in on the Wuhan virus
Thanks so much for sharing!!
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Rakesh wrote:How did I miss this nearly 2.5 year old article?
Flying & fighting in HAL Tejas: Interview with test pilot Rajeev Joshi
https://hushkit.net/2020/01/25/flying-f ... eev-joshi/
25 Jan 2020
The first person to fly the LCA was Rajiv Kothiyal. He was present at one of our BR Meets during Aero India, in Bangalore
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Praneeth Franklin is the photographer.
https://twitter.com/Praneethfrank/statu ... 0xP_lWRYgg ---> Armed and ready to go!
https://twitter.com/Praneethfrank/statu ... 0xP_lWRYgg ---> Armed and ready to go!
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/15295 ... o-SpVrawIQ ---> Show-Stoppers' Corner.
https://twitter.com/ruskievityazi/statu ... o-SpVrawIQ ----> Malaysian Air Force Flanker?
https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... o-SpVrawIQ ---> Yes, this picture taken by Phuong Nguyen during Lima Airshow 2019.
https://twitter.com/ruskievityazi/statu ... o-SpVrawIQ ----> Malaysian Air Force Flanker?
https://twitter.com/lca_tejas_/status/1 ... o-SpVrawIQ ---> Yes, this picture taken by Phuong Nguyen during Lima Airshow 2019.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/
...meanwhile, two of our 'Top Guns' diss on the LCA. Who needs enemies when you have guys like these?
...meanwhile, two of our 'Top Guns' diss on the LCA. Who needs enemies when you have guys like these?
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Please counter with facts. Rants don't lead us anywhere.sajaym wrote:https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/
...meanwhile, two of our 'Top Guns' diss on the LCA. Who needs enemies when you have guys like these?
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
I posted this link in a fit of rage on the MK1A thread. However, after reading the twitter response from HVT. I realised that the more you try to present a logical case. The more engagement such morons recieved.
Best to make them irrelevant.
Best to make them irrelevant.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
That article is garbage, devoid of facts. Seems like they have an axe to grind. Not worth a reply
The squadron pilots who fly the Tejas will tell a different tale.
The squadron pilots who fly the Tejas will tell a different tale.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
This. It is instructive that these retired gents who have never flown the LCA or been associated with the programme either in test or in operational capacity are “experts” with a view. This view is directly opposite to what that pilots and operational pilots on LCA who do this for living hold. I guess it is up to us to which has more credibility.Prem Kumar wrote:That article is garbage, devoid of facts. Seems like they have an axe to grind. Not worth a reply
The squadron pilots who fly the Tejas will tell a different tale.
As far as concessions go, perhaps it would be instructive to examine how many concessions the F35 program got from USAF and USMC in their first/second/third drops. This, even when they had the best expertise and experienced companies making the product. @brar_w would be the best person to comment on this…
What concessions were given to MiG29K when it was accepted? How serious were those? Or to legacy Jaguars?
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Tanaji wrote:
What concessions were given to MiG29K when it was accepted? How serious were those? Or to legacy Jaguars?
Does India have the option to grant concessions to imported systems?
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
When it is phoren, there is no need to grant concessions. Despite whatever limitations, it is phoren. Enough said.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
I read about F-18 being inducted in the USAF and USN despite having issues with regular high Angle of Attack.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
There is no F-18 in USAF. Did you mean the US Marine Corps?suryag wrote:I read about F-18 being inducted in the USAF and USN despite having issues with regular high Angle of Attack.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Well, LCA's participation in Ex Cobra Warriors would have quashed all these stupid articles, but that exercise was cancelled. That exercise would have also boosted our export potential.sajaym wrote:https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/
...meanwhile, two of our 'Top Guns' diss on the LCA. Who needs enemies when you have guys like these?
DefExpo 2022 was also cancelled, but there is a rumor that it will happen in Oct 2022, announcement might come out in the first week of June or so...
Just like DefExpo, our govt/IAF might find another opportunity to showcase our LCA's fighting potential.
PS. Don't think that I am waiting for Cora's approval of LCA. At the end of the day, LCA is our own bird, if some other AF also praises LCA after they do some exercise with it, then it might improve our chance in winning Malaysian contract and other AFs looking at KAI 50 will also take a serious look at our LCA too...
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
The original F18 was a very limited platform. Even then, it was accepted by the USN. The F18E/F are a compromise by the USN after the Avenger was cancelled in the early 90s. With intruders going and F14 reaching the end of service life in the coming 10 years ie early 2000s. The JSF was a gleam in someone's eyes at that time.Rakesh wrote:There is no F-18 in USAF. Did you mean the US Marine Corps?suryag wrote:I read about F-18 being inducted in the USAF and USN despite having issues with regular high Angle of Attack.
They decided to go for a complete re design of the legacy platform. Increasing size by IIRC, 40% and adding a new engine providing additional thrust. Similar to what the IAF is doing with the Mk2. But in IAF's case they have spent a lot of time deciding on the numbers of Mk1/A.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Admiral what options did we have when we got the Mig 29. I am trying to get to the bottom of this "requirements are diluted for phoren maal" thingy. If we agree that the IAF is a reasonably professional organisation then any trade-off would be in areas that the IAF couple live with.Rakesh wrote:When it is phoren, there is no need to grant concessions. Despite whatever limitations, it is phoren. Enough said.
There is a lot of he said - she said around without hardcore facts so this question is to you Admiral or Indranil or JayS.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Sachin, during the time period the Mig29 was acquired. The IAF has already taken dilivery of Mirage 2000. Infact the debate in the AHQ was about which aircraft was to be licensed produced.
India in the end surprised bothe France and USSR by selecting none for domestic production.
I think that the more important question will be to find out the decision making of the IAF which resulted in not selecting either of the aircraft for licence production in India.
India in the end surprised bothe France and USSR by selecting none for domestic production.
I think that the more important question will be to find out the decision making of the IAF which resulted in not selecting either of the aircraft for licence production in India.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Was it the IAF or MoD?
IAF would have gone for the Vajra in a heart beat.
IAF would have gone for the Vajra in a heart beat.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Saab at this rate and this level of dissing of local Maalsajaym wrote:https://eurasiantimes.com/1st-batch-of- ... ncessions/
...meanwhile, two of our 'Top Guns' diss on the LCA. Who needs enemies when you have guys like these?
The services will be a ménage at trios with French planes Anglo-American engines/ships/Pandubbi’s and Russi Tainks
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
What a hit job!!! To sum up that article it is all bunk and BS. Looks like an article from the mid 2000s
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
True, I really checked the date of the article to make sure someone was not pulling a 10-15 year article and passing it now (which happens quite often in the outrage industry). After confirming that it is indeed current, wanted to write a rebuttal. Dropped that idea, how do you write a rebuttal against something that is really a septic report? You have to also step down in $hit to counter it, not interested.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
The other argument given by armed forces is “oh but what option do we have, we need to buy Mig29 only “. So we will dilute our requirements and buy it even if it’s a substandard product. A good example is Mig29k, the plane is so diabolical that it’s airframe cannot withstand the stresses of carrier landings, a task which is its primary function…
Now it is obvious to even a lay observer that if the IAF wants to maintain its squadron strength, there is no other option but to induct LCA in 200-300 number range. There simply isn’t any budget from GoI to do anything else. This is as clear as day. So why don’t they use the same logic of “oh but what option do we have” and accept a product that meets 90% of its requirements initially and then build it up to get a 125% product later? At least the LCA is not as diabolical as the Mig29K…..
But no, we want foreign only, we want MMRCA only, we want T90 only, we want imported artillery only, the list goes on…
Now it is obvious to even a lay observer that if the IAF wants to maintain its squadron strength, there is no other option but to induct LCA in 200-300 number range. There simply isn’t any budget from GoI to do anything else. This is as clear as day. So why don’t they use the same logic of “oh but what option do we have” and accept a product that meets 90% of its requirements initially and then build it up to get a 125% product later? At least the LCA is not as diabolical as the Mig29K…..
But no, we want foreign only, we want MMRCA only, we want T90 only, we want imported artillery only, the list goes on…
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Read this thread first ---> https://twitter.com/Indrani1_Roy/status ... mgbERetVOwks_sachin wrote:Admiral what options did we have when we got the Mig 29. I am trying to get to the bottom of this "requirements are diluted for phoren maal" thingy. If we agree that the IAF is a reasonably professional organisation then any trade-off would be in areas that the IAF couple live with. There is a lot of he said - she said around without hardcore facts so this question is to you Admiral or Indranil or JayS.
Sirjee, the IAF is an institution that has accepted a number of diluted requirements with phoren maal. Here are a few examples;
1) First batch of Jaguars had underpowered engines i.e. Mk 804 vs Mk 811
2) First batch of Mirage 2000s also had underpowered engines i.e. M53-5 vs M53-P2
3) The MiG-29 has a sordid maintenance story with the IAF. Beautiful fighter, but a maintenance hog.
4) Su-30MKI is equally maintenance intensive. Initial batches of MKIs would have their MFDs just shut down mid flight. The first batch were not even MKIs, but rather the K variant.
But yet we never heard complaining. But when Tejas Mk1 was inducted, Air HQ was stating that they have accepted Tejas Mk1 with X number of concessions and the enemy will not give concessions. This is an attitude of Ham Par Upkaar Karana. I never heard this same parochial lecture with Jaguar or Mirage 2000 or MiG-29 or Su-30MKI. They don't want to work with local industry to improve the home grown product, but they want the local product to be world class from the get go. That is just not possible.
How come you don't have VLO technology? Then why I should invest my meagre CAPEX in buying a local product, when I can get a ready-made phoren product? I just have to throw a few billion dollars and I will get a ready made plane. And it is not my dollars, so I don't care. Could Lockheed Martin have built F-21 (F-16 Block 70/72) soon after the first flight in the 1970s? Because this is what IAF wants with Tejas.
Tejas was designed as a MiG-21 replacement. She far exceeds that, but now a light fighter is not sufficient in today's modern air warfare. So a new capability is required. So jump to that. But you will never reach that, if you don't manufacture and use the light fighter in large numbers. There will be no user feedback to the developer. The developer is perpetually trying to meet the user's expectation, which has never been properly communicated to the developer in the first place!
The user will then order a paltry 40 aircraft (to meet some Govt policy goal) and then complain that the manufacturer is taking painfully long to deliver these aircraft. The even bigger irony is that the user was running a competition - until yesterday - of a phoren fighter in triple digits, but yet will not order a local fighter in the same amount. Because she is not good enough. Take a look at JF-17. You had Block 1, then Block 2 and now Block 3 in the works. In India, when we hear the Air Chief talk about Mk2....we bring out the drums and do the bhangra on BRF.
After all the developmental challenges that the HTT-40 went through, then Air HQ wanted HAL to build a sizeable number of them first, before they accepted the platform. Indranil knows a lot more detail on the HTT-40, but he chooses not to wash dirty linen in public.
The IAF is professional. I will not deny that. But the IAF is unable to see the value of investing in local industry. To them, it is a negative. Their past experiences with local industry (i.e. HAL) have not been pleasant, so they refuse to entertain any more.
Mirage 2000 production would have gone through, had the MiG-29 deal not gone through.ks_sachin wrote:Was it the IAF or MoD?
IAF would have gone for the Vajra in a heart beat.
What a sad story that was and we might repeat it again with the Rafale acquisition.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Admiral I am afraid you wasted your time.
I was specifically after whether there was a domestic alt when the Jag / Mirage / Mig 23 /27 / 29 were bought where diluting specs played in the selection of the Foreign bird.
I know of the trainer saga and there we clearly had an domestic alternative.
I am no apologist for the services but again I rather trust them or your observations than some of the rants here.
I was specifically after whether there was a domestic alt when the Jag / Mirage / Mig 23 /27 / 29 were bought where diluting specs played in the selection of the Foreign bird.
I know of the trainer saga and there we clearly had an domestic alternative.
I am no apologist for the services but again I rather trust them or your observations than some of the rants here.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Sirjee, if you have some free time on your hands....look this up ---> HF-73 (the proposed local DPSA program). Killed in favour of the Jaguar. The entire Jaguar episode is mired in suspicion and corruption.
The HF-73's predecessor - the HF-24 Marut - died in a similar fashion. But her Orpheus engine was another sticking point.
Regardless, the IAF's love for easy solutions (buy platforms from abroad) is an issue that needs to be addressed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut
The HF-73's predecessor - the HF-24 Marut - died in a similar fashion. But her Orpheus engine was another sticking point.
Regardless, the IAF's love for easy solutions (buy platforms from abroad) is an issue that needs to be addressed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_HF-24_Marut
The IAF reportedly showed little confidence in indigenous fighter technology, having openly expressed its preference for the French-built Dassault Ouragan as an alternative.[15] By the time the Marut entered mass production, the IAF had already purchased foreign-built fighters such as the Hawker Hunter and Sukhoi Su-7.[13] Following on from the Marut, HAL proceeded to produce larger quantities of both European and Soviet combat aircraft under license, such as the SEPECAT Jaguar, Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-21, and Mikoyan MiG-27.[18]
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
An old tweet, but history is always relevant....
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/117 ... mgbERetVOw ---> The list of cancelled projects of HAL I found, will try to discuss on each later
1) HF-24 Mk II
2) HF-24-M-53
3) HF-25 [possibly TASA]
4) ASA
5) ASF 300
6) GAF-1
7) GAF-2
8] HF-73 [HSSA>HSS 73>DPSA]
9) HAC 33
10) STOLTA
11) MCA (doubtful of authenticity)
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/117 ... mgbERetVOw ---> The list of cancelled projects of HAL I found, will try to discuss on each later
1) HF-24 Mk II
2) HF-24-M-53
3) HF-25 [possibly TASA]
4) ASA
5) ASF 300
6) GAF-1
7) GAF-2
8] HF-73 [HSSA>HSS 73>DPSA]
9) HAC 33
10) STOLTA
11) MCA (doubtful of authenticity)
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Forget concessions, we don't even seem to test imported systems in the same rigorous manner reserved for indigenous ones. Unfortunately we discover major problems only after the system is in active service. There are so many examples - T-90 thermal sights conking out in the heat (no summer/winter/fall/spring/monsoon trials eh?), the Jaguar's much touted advanced Nav/Attack system coming a cropper and having to be fixed by HAL, Mig-29K not being sufficiently ruggedized for carrier ops, SIG-716 rifles not working well with local ammo etc.Pratyush wrote:Tanaji wrote:
What concessions were given to MiG29K when it was accepted? How serious were those? Or to legacy Jaguars?
Does India have the option to grant concessions to imported systems?
This particular hit-job on the Tejas is on the same level as the "Arjun lost its torsion bar in testing" article from all those years ago.
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
agree. no excuses.Rakesh wrote:....
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Now that I have your attention , humble request ---> please do not quote an entire post to just put in a few words.ks_sachin wrote:agree. no excuses.
It is hard for users (of which there are many) who visit BRF on a mobile phone. I have edited your post above. Please review.
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Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
I think it was Dileep or Shiv who said "Those who haven't flown LCA don't have any good words for it. Those who have flown it have only good things to say about it".Prem Kumar wrote:That article is garbage, devoid of facts. Seems like they have an axe to grind. Not worth a reply
The squadron pilots who fly the Tejas will tell a different tale.
Not discounting any "external influencing factors" here too.
Off topic: Wonder where Dileep is, been absent from forum for a long time
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
Admiral saar, a noob question.Rakesh wrote: --snip --
The IAF is professional. I will not deny that. But the IAF is unable to see the value of investing in local industry. To them, it is a negative. Their past experiences with local industry (i.e. HAL) have not been pleasant, so they refuse to entertain any more.
--snip--
Has the parliamentary committee ever held a session (open/closed door) with any Chief regarding its preparedness?
Even an Academically challenged politician could ask the questions like
- When are you going to get to your sanctioned strength?
- Why not the desi fighter?
- What are the roadblocks?
Re: Air Force Tejas Mk1: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022
^^Saar
There are many drivers TT’s and too many passengers on the ‘Malai Express’ and far too many self styled critics going GaGa on beauty of the train so where do you expect some honest straight talking
There are many drivers TT’s and too many passengers on the ‘Malai Express’ and far too many self styled critics going GaGa on beauty of the train so where do you expect some honest straight talking