you are too polite!Pratyush wrote:No.konaseema wrote:Was there ever any news / thought process to procure Tejas Mk1 by the Indian Navy for the defense of the naval bases (not operated on the aircraft carriers) ?
The NLCA was never considered for the role. If the objective is to protect naval assets using a naval aircraft. NLCA could be used.
But the question to ask is, why do you want to spend budget on building a single purpose aircraft that lacked the ability to be deployed from the aircraft carriers. Doing a job the the IAF is already doing.
Something, that the existing Mig29 K can easily accomplish for the Navy. While also being "safely", deployable from the carrier. Money has already been spent on it.
Indian Naval Aviation
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
There are a lot of shore based Naval operations for which the NLCA can be very useful, The IAF for long time had dedicated Jaguar IM Aircraft.
Besides it can get a Production system up and running, a lot of Data, Sensors, Landing Gear , Software all can be perfected so that TEDBF can be manufactured inducted much earlier.
While in peacetime these aircraft can help train pilots on landings on Vikram Aditya and Vikrant- from what I heard they are easy to fly. Given the good range of LCA, in War time they can perform shore based duties for Anti shipping or strike, A2A, CAP patrols- reliving IAF of these duties.
I feel it will be very positive step as a lot of Naval aviation related components can start low volume production within the country which will ultimately lead to faster TEDBF and Faster Stealth based Naval aircraft development.
I hope the Navy orders 16-24 of these.
Besides it can get a Production system up and running, a lot of Data, Sensors, Landing Gear , Software all can be perfected so that TEDBF can be manufactured inducted much earlier.
While in peacetime these aircraft can help train pilots on landings on Vikram Aditya and Vikrant- from what I heard they are easy to fly. Given the good range of LCA, in War time they can perform shore based duties for Anti shipping or strike, A2A, CAP patrols- reliving IAF of these duties.
I feel it will be very positive step as a lot of Naval aviation related components can start low volume production within the country which will ultimately lead to faster TEDBF and Faster Stealth based Naval aircraft development.
I hope the Navy orders 16-24 of these.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Is the NLCA is necessary to do all that you are asking for.Can this job not be done by adding additional numbers of MK1A for the IAF.
The other issue is the development of new navalised aircraft.
What is it that the production of NLCA will do that will be helpful for development of tedbf or future aircraft.
The training roles are better served by the training versions of the in-service aircraft.
The other issue is the development of new navalised aircraft.
What is it that the production of NLCA will do that will be helpful for development of tedbf or future aircraft.
The training roles are better served by the training versions of the in-service aircraft.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
NLCA has the ability to land and take off from Aircraft carriers due to specialized landing gear software etc, this knowledge will have some gap if no Naval aircraft is produced for 10 years, so HAL churning out a few every year will keep this machine well oiled and HAL engineers, supplier system knowledge equipment base for Naval Aircraft intact.
Plus it can keep getting valuable inputs for Pilots and operators by peace time sorties. And besides our Mig 29K fleet will always have limited availability, so these aircraft in addition to shore based defense, can also be used for certain types of missions till we get better aircraft. The 26 F18/ Rafale M will not come overnight. Rafale M 2 seater cannot be used INS Vikram Aditya or INS Vikrant.
Plus it can keep getting valuable inputs for Pilots and operators by peace time sorties. And besides our Mig 29K fleet will always have limited availability, so these aircraft in addition to shore based defense, can also be used for certain types of missions till we get better aircraft. The 26 F18/ Rafale M will not come overnight. Rafale M 2 seater cannot be used INS Vikram Aditya or INS Vikrant.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Folks, I asked the question based on these 2 points. Was there or is there a need for a like for like replacement for the Jaguar - IM version which had
the ability to fire anti-ship missiles (if I am not wrong) and if the IN had ever thought of owning / operating aircrafts for the defense of its naval bases like Karwar or Mumbai in an interceptor / point defense role? The other point was to explore the possibility of IN operating LCA in the above role or operate NLCA in a dual purpose role (stop gap for carrier based fighter) and on other times, used to protect its bases / air fields with NLCA. Thanks!
the ability to fire anti-ship missiles (if I am not wrong) and if the IN had ever thought of owning / operating aircrafts for the defense of its naval bases like Karwar or Mumbai in an interceptor / point defense role? The other point was to explore the possibility of IN operating LCA in the above role or operate NLCA in a dual purpose role (stop gap for carrier based fighter) and on other times, used to protect its bases / air fields with NLCA. Thanks!
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> In the 80s, the French managed to save their indigenous aerospace industry from import lobby. The Navy wanted to acquire F/A-18 from US as Rafale M program was yet to produce any example for operation, while Hornet was fully compatible to operate from French carrier(s).
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> The plans were already in place to either lease or purchase the F/A-18A/B from McDonnell Douglas (the then OEM of the design), which was in active service with US Naval Air Arm. Before that, trials were planned with two airframes, on carrier Foch in August 1989.
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> However, the carrier Foch docked in Mediterranean for mission and hence, unavailable for any trials at the given period. When she returned, the F/A-18 acquisition was scrapped by the French government which suspended any trials in future.
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Provisions were made to compensate for this deal. Upgrades were carried out for F-8 "Crusader" aircraft, the only carrier borne jet available at that time. The first production batch of Rafale was also prioritized for Navy, which eventually made it the 1st operator of the type.
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Hence, Rafale M, initially facing competition from American counterpart, won and secured it's spot where it had to. So now the question is, in the Indian Navy's MRCBF tender, will History repeat itself or Hornet will make a comeback while going head to head against the Gust?
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> The plans were already in place to either lease or purchase the F/A-18A/B from McDonnell Douglas (the then OEM of the design), which was in active service with US Naval Air Arm. Before that, trials were planned with two airframes, on carrier Foch in August 1989.
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> However, the carrier Foch docked in Mediterranean for mission and hence, unavailable for any trials at the given period. When she returned, the F/A-18 acquisition was scrapped by the French government which suspended any trials in future.
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Provisions were made to compensate for this deal. Upgrades were carried out for F-8 "Crusader" aircraft, the only carrier borne jet available at that time. The first production batch of Rafale was also prioritized for Navy, which eventually made it the 1st operator of the type.
https://twitter.com/_devildog_rv_/statu ... ByQJ6QmBfw ---> Hence, Rafale M, initially facing competition from American counterpart, won and secured it's spot where it had to. So now the question is, in the Indian Navy's MRCBF tender, will History repeat itself or Hornet will make a comeback while going head to head against the Gust?
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
The point of contention as far as I am concerned is the budget for the navy. The budget is quite limited and in that circumstance, addition of a new platform to perform a job that the IAF already does, is somewhat redundant and quite inefficient use of the available budget.konaseema wrote:Folks, I asked the question based on these 2 points. Was there or is there a need for a like for like replacement for the Jaguar - IM version which had
the ability to fire anti-ship missiles (if I am not wrong) and if the IN had ever thought of owning / operating aircrafts for the defense of its naval bases like Karwar or Mumbai in an interceptor / point defense role? The other point was to explore the possibility of IN operating LCA in the above role or operate NLCA in a dual purpose role (stop gap for carrier based fighter) and on other times, used to protect its bases / air fields with NLCA. Thanks!
Having said that, if the aircraft was found to be suitable for carrier operations with useful load. My position will change. You will find me jumping up and down for 200 of these aircrafts.
PS, if the navy had decided that they will build a CATOBAR ship. With that ship being under construction today. I believe that the NLCA would be useful for that ship.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation
One of the Jaguar IM squadrons used to be based at Lohegaon, now moved to Jamnagar (IIRC). Flight time from wheels up to Bombay High is about 12 minutes (remember reading this somewhere). Now Lohegaon has Two Su-30MKI squadrons. I am sure at least one of them will be equipped with the 'Kh' series of missiles with range equivalent or greater than the Sea-Eagle that the IM was equipped with. Also, a pair of MKI's can bring more ordinance to the fight. Additionally, the Shore based batteries have been upgraded with Brahmos giving good cover to the base.konaseema wrote:Folks, I asked the question based on these 2 points. Was there or is there a need for a like for like replacement for the Jaguar - IM version which had
the ability to fire anti-ship missiles (if I am not wrong) and if the IN had ever thought of owning / operating aircrafts for the defense of its naval bases like Karwar or Mumbai in an interceptor / point defense role? The other point was to explore the possibility of IN operating LCA in the above role or operate NLCA in a dual purpose role (stop gap for carrier based fighter) and on other times, used to protect its bases / air fields with NLCA. Thanks!
In addition to this if you see most Naval bases will have similar Air Force bases/Navy bases close by (flight time wise) with mainly Anti Ship/ Submarine aircraft. The Air to Air component, at least on our western coast is not that much of a big risk that point defence will be required close to base. Daddy long legs (a 12 aircraft flight of MKI's) can man station and literally close down the airspace from a purely Naval perspective (close to shore).
IMHO the NLCA is better suited for the pilots to train on without putting too many hours on the Small fleet of 29's and future Rafales (till the TEDBF) comes online. The NLCA could be the LIFT that is used by Pilots at the STBF (or equivalent) training facility in the future.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Click on the link below. The article is from Pages 12 - 15.
Super Hornet - Built for Air Superiority
https://www.sps-aviation.com/e-magazine ... &year=2022
By Rohit Goel
Super Hornet - Built for Air Superiority
https://www.sps-aviation.com/e-magazine ... &year=2022
By Rohit Goel
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation
The first flight of Advanced Light Helicopter (Wheeled Version) with segmented MRBs (Main Rotor Blades) and MRH (Main Rotor Head) in pre-cone configuration was carried out in Bengaluru.
https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/154 ... d3BoA&s=19
https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/154 ... d3BoA&s=19
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Great news! Thank you Ashish Saarashishvikas wrote:The first flight of Advanced Light Helicopter (Wheeled Version) with segmented MRBs (Main Rotor Blades) and MRH (Main Rotor Head) in pre-cone configuration was carried out in Bengaluru.
https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/154 ... d3BoA&s=19
https://twitter.com/realkaypius/status/ ... nASAE-laKg ---> Two years on, we have updates. First flight of ALH with 2-segmented MRB & pre-cone MRH completed, as per HAL. Involves modifications to the integrated dynamic system, upper control system, stub shaft and main rotor head, among other sub-assemblies. Good progress, on time.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
https://twitter.com/rishhikesh/status/1 ... 02VhKjedIw --->ashishvikas wrote:The first flight of Advanced Light Helicopter (Wheeled Version) with segmented MRBs (Main Rotor Blades) and MRH (Main Rotor Head) in pre-cone configuration was carried out in Bengaluru.
https://twitter.com/HALHQBLR/status/154 ... d3BoA&s=19
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Why the wheeled version? I thought the ski version will be better for landing on the ship deck.
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Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Ship based ALH has always been wheeled - easier to land on a moving ship and to roll it into the hangar.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Indian Navy to formally move proposal to purchase multi role fighters by end of 2022.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
https://twitter.com/DefenceDecode/statu ... sdxe97AQ4Q ---> Indian Navy has completed trials for deck-based fighters F/A-18SH of Boeing and Rafale-M of Dassault Aviation. "Trials of Rafale & Boeing F-18 have been done to prove their capability of operating from aircraft carriers. Our aim is indigenisation. We have a twin-engine deck-based fighter aircraft plan, but it will take some time," Vice Admiral SN Ghormade. A report is awaited, after which the case will be taken up. It will be an inter-governmental agreement.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Indian Navy to go for govt-to-govt deal with US or France for fighter planes
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-navy ... s/1025631/
05 July 2022
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-navy ... s/1025631/
05 July 2022
The sources, however, refused to divulge how Rafale and Super Hornets have performed and only said that both aircraft are “decent”. The final report is likely to give more details of both aircraft.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Skids make no sense for naval role where you have to move aircraft around the deck and into hangers constantlyKakkaji wrote:Why the wheeled version? I thought the ski version will be better for landing on the ship deck.
Also skids offer next to no shock absorbing, wheeled version has oleo struts that cushion landings on a pitching/rolling deck. You won’t find any (proper) naval helo in the world that doesn’t have wheels
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Sounds like they do not have a clue, still don’t know what numbers they will seek, don’t have final results from trails that concluded months ago, don’t even have procurement route finalised.Rakesh wrote:Indian Navy to go for govt-to-govt deal with US or France for fighter planes
https://theprint.in/defence/indian-navy ... s/1025631/
05 July 2022
The sources, however, refused to divulge how Rafale and Super Hornets have performed and only said that both aircraft are “decent”. The final report is likely to give more details of both aircraft.
This has got to be one of the most egregious farces in recent times, how many different ways can they throw ambiguity into this thing? Are they actually serious or is this just another fishing expedition? The OEMs must be pulling their hair out listening to all the contradictions of the IN and MRCBF in the last 7 years.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
https://twitter.com/ksingh_1469/status/ ... a63zYvuNhQ
How many different solutions does HAL have to offer the IN for them to order this thing for the NUH role? Is Chetak so space age that IN is happy to operate them into 2030s?
This is the lowest of hanging fruits and in any other (sane) country the ALH would’ve been ordered as the NUH years ago and no Chetak would be in IN service today yet here we are
How many different solutions does HAL have to offer the IN for them to order this thing for the NUH role? Is Chetak so space age that IN is happy to operate them into 2030s?
This is the lowest of hanging fruits and in any other (sane) country the ALH would’ve been ordered as the NUH years ago and no Chetak would be in IN service today yet here we are
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
The Indian Navy is laying the ground work for the C-295 to enter their Naval Air Arm. We should have gone in for those six additional P-8Is (that was planned), but I don't see that happening now with the C-295 making inroads in the Indian Air Force. Those six P-8Is were to come with COMCASA-approved equipment.
https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... uUjdchoY1g ----> Report: Indian Navy is proceeding with acquiring eight new Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft, and 10 Sea Guardian UAVs. Meanwhile, US is hoping that India will buy up to 25-35 P-8I Poseidon MPAs.
https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... uUjdchoY1g ----> Report: Indian Navy is proceeding with acquiring eight new Medium Range Maritime Reconnaissance (MRMR) aircraft, and 10 Sea Guardian UAVs. Meanwhile, US is hoping that India will buy up to 25-35 P-8I Poseidon MPAs.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
We have probably decent number of P-8Is. It is always good to have our own infrastructure where possible and AWACS are the most critical and vulnerable components in any military. I won't trust the foreign powers that can easily snoop into these platforms in which they have closed-source software installed. P-8I's would always act as a guide and benchmark for capability to begin with.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
There were desi media reports of the Indian Navy requiring their MRCBFs to be nuclear armed capable. But being media reports, I dismissed it as being DDM. What is confirmed is that the Indian Air Force has given their Rafale F3R(I)s this capability. What platform is being used is a mystery and has not been revealed to the public.
But see this picture below. This is the first time that I have come across of a French Navy Rafale M (armed with the ASMP-A nuclear missile) getting ready for take off from the Charles De Gaulle. The French will not allow the sale of the ASMP-A to any country, including India. It is one of their strategic weapons in their nuclear triad. When Egypt (I believe) wanted their Rafales quicker, the French Air and Naval air arms scaled back their own Rafale purchases for Egypt. But the aircraft on the line at Merignac had their nuclear hard wiring removed before being delivered.
But seeing how the IAF has retrofitted their Rafales to carry nuclear weapons, the IN could adopt the same if they wanted to. I don't know if GOTUS will allow the F-18SH to be retrofitted to carry nuclear weapons.
https://twitter.com/warplane_*****/statu ... uUjdchoY1g ---> French Navy Rafale M F3R taking off from the nuclear aircraft carrier CDG with supersonic nuclear tactical missile ASMP-A.
But see this picture below. This is the first time that I have come across of a French Navy Rafale M (armed with the ASMP-A nuclear missile) getting ready for take off from the Charles De Gaulle. The French will not allow the sale of the ASMP-A to any country, including India. It is one of their strategic weapons in their nuclear triad. When Egypt (I believe) wanted their Rafales quicker, the French Air and Naval air arms scaled back their own Rafale purchases for Egypt. But the aircraft on the line at Merignac had their nuclear hard wiring removed before being delivered.
But seeing how the IAF has retrofitted their Rafales to carry nuclear weapons, the IN could adopt the same if they wanted to. I don't know if GOTUS will allow the F-18SH to be retrofitted to carry nuclear weapons.
https://twitter.com/warplane_*****/statu ... uUjdchoY1g ---> French Navy Rafale M F3R taking off from the nuclear aircraft carrier CDG with supersonic nuclear tactical missile ASMP-A.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
https://twitter.com/vikrantkumar/status ... uUjdchoY1g ---> Indian Navy has completed a trial of both Super Hornets and Rafale M for its IAC1 - INS Vikrant. Now you will see planted stories of the deal being won by one party, just to force the IN to come out and deny it. A ploy to get the info and clarity.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Admiral, these days a/cs are much less safer than missiles for nuclear delivery. It gets even worse on naval aircraft whose take off and landing, both are too risky even without nuclear payloads. IMHO, if at all IN wants the spec, it would only be to qualify Rafale against competition.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Absolutely basant. Fully agree that missiles are more reliable (survivability) than aircraft. But this is the first time I am seeing a missile armed with a nuclear warhead on board an aircraft carrier. The idea that the French Navy is even toying with this idea - when mobile or stationary missiles are more survivable - is surprising. They obviously see utility for this, otherwise they would not even attempt it.basant wrote:Admiral, these days a/cs are much less safer than missiles for nuclear delivery. It gets even worse on naval aircraft whose take off and landing, both are too risky even without nuclear payloads. IMHO, if at all IN wants the spec, it would only be to qualify Rafale against competition.
A detachment of Rafales of the French Air Force are tasked with nuclear delivery. Now the French Navy has a similar capability. Apart from striking stationary (hi-value) land targets, perhaps the French Navy might use them for a strike against a carrier battle group?
Placing nuclear armed missiles aboard an aircraft carrier is a highly risky proposition. Perhaps the advantages of deploying this missile - for the French Navy - far outweigh the disadvantages.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
My guess would be that it wouldn't hurt to have the capability. In case if the a/c need to be deployed on land, it could be useful. These superpowers anyway fight with defenseless counties most of the time, so won't even need to have nukes.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
One thing basant to test a Rafale M (operating off a land base) with a nuclear-armed, supersonic, missile. That is par for the course.
It is a whole other ball game, to validate the feasibility of a Rafale M - from an aircraft carrier - with a nuclear-armed, supersonic, missile.
It is a whole other ball game, to validate the feasibility of a Rafale M - from an aircraft carrier - with a nuclear-armed, supersonic, missile.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
In India's case this is useful. Base naval Rafales that are armed with nuclear weapons on land., transfer them on a as required basis to any of the ACs anywhere in IOR , less risk and greater flexibilityRakesh wrote:One thing basant to test a Rafale M (operating off a land base) with a nuclear-armed, supersonic, missile. That is par for the course.
It is a whole other ball game, to validate the feasibility of a Rafale M - from an aircraft carrier - with a nuclear-armed, supersonic, missile.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
the risk of having a nuclear missile armed aircraft on an a/c seems just too much. even routine landings are a "controlled crash landing". with the andaman and lakshadweep islands, there is enough reach on the periphery to use land based strategic aircraft - no?
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
What is the strategic intent of the Naval aviation and Navy?
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Major American combat ships carry nuclear tipped tomahawks not to mention all their ACs are nuclear bases!! ., besides modern nuclear warheads are safe even from crashes unless specifically triggered.bharathp wrote:the risk of having a nuclear missile armed aircraft on an a/c seems just too much. even routine landings are a "controlled crash landing". with the andaman and lakshadweep islands, there is enough reach on the periphery to use land based strategic aircraft - no?
India should be thinking of Air launched nuclear Brahmos missile aboard its carriers, would give a very potent deterrent capability.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
I'm really surprised that neither Rafale-M nor the Shornets will be tested on the actual carrier where they are going to operate. While I'm sure that simulations etc can figure out useful load at different speeds (baselining from the SBTF) and they can also figure out whether the aircraft can fit into the lifts etc and Vikrant hasn't been ready yet ... yet I think there should be a phase-2 trials on the actual carrier itself.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
True several decades ago, not true now. The nuclear tomahawk has been retired for many years, and naval nuclear weapons moved to the submarines. The ground launched nuclear tomahawk was retired in 1991 due to the INF treaty, W group aboard carriers responsible for nukes dismantled by 1993 and the surface navy was de-armed in 1994 by presidential order.kit wrote:
Major American combat ships carry nuclear tipped tomahawks not to mention all their ACs are nuclear bases!! ., .....
The US definitely has naval nuclear reactors and nothing stops them from moving tactical , short or intermediate range nukes aboard carrier or ship if they wanted to. But they don't.
Naval nuclear posture must be driven from indian nuclear posture, and doctrine
We don't want the tail wagging the dog
Inter service rivalry and pitch for funds, weapons,nuclear and otherwise is inevitable. It must be justifiable. And decided top down.
"IMSS-2015 also clarifies India’s intent to be a net security provider in its areas of interest by defining net security as – the state of actual security available in an area, upon balancing prevailing threats, inherent risks and rising challenges in the maritime environment, against the ability to monitor, contain and counter all of these."
The indian navy is positioned to be a net provider of security in the IOR region and beyond, especially co-operative security.
It is responsible for a pillar of india's nuclear /WMD security that is only likely to grow.
But having nukes on destroyers, naval planes, SSBN, and SSK are not necessarily increasing security all that much. You have to be accountable for the HEU/plutonium, physically as well as decisio wise. And that imposes a cost and requires extreme reliability of personnel, systems and more.
Let's not lose focus ..
Last edited by Barath on 10 Jul 2022 16:22, edited 2 times in total.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Pay the money, and folks can invest in time, costs and training to risk the landings. The lure of 26 aircraft sales without AON or MoU from an unreliable buyer is probably not enough to risk a 100 million dollar aircraft and human lives or spend the time and effort on derisking quite that much.srin wrote:I'm really surprised that neither Rafale-M nor the Shornets will be tested on the actual carrier where they are going to operate. .
And does India want to hand over some operational knowledge of indian carrier ops that will be necessary at this time? Even if cross-decking ops will help do that in a future exercise, surely it is better if a conscious, controlled decision by India ? With all aboard trained in security as well
Singapore bought a few F35 to be able to try to test it and figure out what they wanted, with few oem restrictions. India is no singapore
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
They did not do it on the Vikramaditya either, despite the fact that the Vikramaditya will largely continue to operate the MiG-29K/KUB.srin wrote:I'm really surprised that neither Rafale-M nor the Shornets will be tested on the actual carrier where they are going to operate. While I'm sure that simulations etc can figure out useful load at different speeds (baselining from the SBTF) and they can also figure out whether the aircraft can fit into the lifts etc and Vikrant hasn't been ready yet ... yet I think there should be a phase-2 trials on the actual carrier itself.
The SBTF at Goa is designed to mimic the ski jump on the Vikrant and Vikramaditya. The first naval Tejas prototype was tested at the SBTF in Goa. Only after the required validation at the SBTF, did it move to the Vikramaditya for flight tests from an aircraft carrier.
The Vikrant is not yet commissioned yet. They have done some dry runs of compatibility of the MiG-29K on the Vikrant's elevators, but that is more to verify operational usability than to see whether the aircraft fits in the elevators. That is already known to the designers.
When the Vikrant is commissioned next month, it will take an entire year before an operational deployment can take place. August 2023 will be the first operational deployment of the Vikrant. Within that one year, every system on board will be checked by the Navy, especially the flight operations. She will operate the MiG-29K/KUB, till either the Rafale M or the F-18SH are inducted into the navy. The Navy has stated that they will submit their choice of MRCBF by the end of the year.
Then the MoD has to move ahead with the sanction of funds. That delivery could occur within a year, depending on how quickly the MoD wants to move the acquisition. Both OEMs - Boeing and Dassault - are open to leasing some used airframes till the IN-specific examples arrive. Dassault has offered four Rafale Ms of the F3R variety and Boeing will offer a lot more airframes, as they have significantly more airframes to lease out.
And both aircraft can fit in the lifts of the Vikrant. The OEM is paying for these flight tests, not the Indian Navy. So no point in these OEMs bringing in their aircraft for tests, if they could not fit in the lifts of the Vikrant. The F-18SH can fit in the lifts (with wings folded), but length wise will she stick out from the rear of the elevator. That however, is not a reason for disqualification. Rafale M will likely have to remove her wingtips, but will fit in the lifts as well.
The eventual deployment of the Rafale M or the F-18SH will see the Navy conduct her operational tests from the Vikrant. Everything will be validated with the Navy's choice of MRCBF, before an actual operational deployment is underway.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
So we're looking at 2028-9 at the earliest for an actual deployment for Vikrant with either Rafale or ShornetsRakesh wrote: ...
Wonder if the Mig29ks can be eeked out until then or will these ships essentially become Air Defense Ships/Helo carriers till then rather than a true Aircraft carrier.
I would have loved to see the Navy ask for some more NLCAs even if it would be only be a LIFT type platform or only actively operate from Naval Air Stations . The additional testing and experiences gained would be crucial for a future TEDBF and stretch MiG29k's available airframe hours a bit more
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
The capacity of both the aircraft carriers are 26 fixed wing aircrafts. We have around 40 Mig-29K's with us. That said, we can have a potential complement of 1/2 squadron on Vikrant, while Vicky can has its full complement.
Re: Indian Naval Aviation
Unless the MoD throws an impediment or some other unforeseen event occurs, the deployment of Rafale M or F-18SH should happen in 2023. They will be used and leased airframes, but they should enter in that time frame. They will be returned when the IN-specific examples arrive.AkshaySG wrote:So we're looking at 2028-9 at the earliest for an actual deployment for Vikrant with either Rafale or Shornets
The MiG-29K/KUB fleet will be retired by the early 2030s. That is the plan. They will continue to serve on the Vikramaditya till then.AkshaySG wrote:Wonder if the Mig29ks can be eeked out until then or will these ships essentially become Air Defense Ships/Helo carriers till then rather than a true Aircraft carrier.
The Vikrant will temporarily operate the MiG-29K, till the first batch of Rafale Ms or F-18SHs arrive.
NLCAs cannot be used on the Vikramaditya or Vikrant unless they open the flight envelope. Listen to the Blueskies Podcast with Air Commodore JA Maolankar (retd) for more info. But using them as LIFTs - from land bases (i.e. Dabolim) - is certainly doable. Can be used for rookie pilots who transition from Navy BAe Hawks to the MiG-29K/KUB.AkshaySG wrote:I would have loved to see the Navy ask for some more NLCAs even if it would be only be a LIFT type platform or only actively operate from Naval Air Stations. The additional testing and experiences gained would be crucial for a future TEDBF and stretch MiG29k's available airframe hours a bit more
And in the future from BAe Hawks to Rafale Ms or F-18SHs.