MoD: Defence Procurement Policies Issues and Discussions

[mody]

Mody please write it as an article and can get it published!

Thanks for the encouragement Ramana Garu. Do you have any contacts at Swarajya magazine or any other similar platforms?

[kit]

PART – II Problems in the current MIC setup in India.


There are perhaps many more issues that I might have left out. Others can help and contribute.

Good write up., DRDO needs to move from production to the role of DARPA ?..

A discussion around this would be worthwhile as India needs to move on from state-of-the-art tech in niche areas like missiles and radars to bleeding edge

Would the startup and incubator support for new tech be sufficient? How is this at the ground level?

Development is one., mass production is another ., India might have scale of economies that a lot of other countries don't., so why are we lagging here ?

[mody]

PART – II Problems in the current MIC setup in India.


There are perhaps many more issues that I might have left out. Others can help and contribute.

Good write up., DRDO needs to move from production to the role of DARPA ?..

A discussion around this would be worthwhile as India needs to move on from state-of-the-art tech in niche areas like missiles and radars to bleeding edge

Would the startup and incubator support for new tech be sufficient? How is this at the ground level?

Development is one., mass production is another ., India might have scale of economies that a lot of other countries don't., so why are we lagging here ?

DRDO cannot completely function as DARPA, as currently it also develops a lot of currently needed weapons systems and indigenous alternatives to existing foreign systems.
There are some labs in DRDO that work on bleeding edge or exploratory stuff, like directed energy weapons etc.
Currently DRDO is a very big organization, which is kind of like a combination of R&D division of defense companies of other countries, along with a DARPA type role. Please note, that currently in India, most of the defense PSU's have a very small R&D role and rarely ever develop a new product in house on their own. It is always been ToT screwdrivergiri, followed by some research and development towards indegenizing some of the parts and then later towards improving the original imported designs.
Hence, what is needed is for DRDO to choose a production cum development partner or multiple partners, depending on the size and scope of the project and the level of expertise of the private or public sector partner companies. This has to be done fairly early, once DRDO is confident, it has the basic technologies in place, to move to the prototype stage.
This is the model they have adopted for the ATAGS.

For missile projects, BEL and BDL are chosen fairly early for fabricating the prototype for testing, but I don't think they play a very active part in the development itself. For most other projects upto now, it has always been that a production agency is chosen after the development is complete and then sort of ToT takes place from the respective DRDO lab to the production company. Uptill a few years ago, this was also always a defense PSU or ordinance factory. The results of these were not always satisfactory. Not simply because the PSU's or the OFBs were bad (though in many cases thats where the fault lay), but also in this fundamental structure. If the production partner is part of the development right from the beginning then they can also provide feedback about how feasible some of the design choices are, when considered from the mass production angle.

As an example, in my own company, we had a large listed company as a customer. They had made a machine for the cotton agricultural sector and were using an electromagnetic clutch from my company. All the prototypes and testing was perfect and the pilot batches of their machines also functioned perfectly well. They went ahead and placed an order for 8,000 clutches with us (our largest single order, ever). However, after supplying about 500 nos, they cancelled the order, as when they went for mass production of their machine, they simply could not meet the tolerances required for using our clutch. they had to go back to the drawing board, eliminate the clutch and use multiple small geared motors instead. The order for us was cancelled (about 2,000 nos in various stages of production, had to be used for various other customers of raw material salvaged in some other way, over the next 5 years). in the end I simply glad that they paid for the 500 nos already supplied to them, after a delay of about 2-3 months.

[ramana]

Mody please write it as an article and can get it published!

Thanks for the encouragement Ramana Garu. Do you have any contacts at Swarajya magazine or any other similar platforms?

The founders are BRF!

Write it and when ready ping me.

[ramana]

Yes DARPA type work is subset of DRDO.

And is good for India.

[fanne]

Can I ask questions on submarine.

1. Did we get HDW submarine ToT (just like Bofors?)?
2. South Korea got the same sub and ToT 10 years after us and they developed further on it and now handing us a derivative of that.
3. They have of course all round improved it, and added LIon battery, Ballistic missile launcher and AIP to it (we have none of this either from HDW or Scropoene ToT).
4. We have Scorpene ToT (supposedly not great ToT, screwdriver giri, but HDW was some real ToT, at least it was for S. Korea).
5. We have AIP from DRDO, we have ballistic missile launcher tech from Arihant class of ships, Lion battery, we are developing something or buy that tech from sk or Japan
6. Why cant we have the next sub our own? Why beg anyone. Yes it will take time, but it will always take time. Can we buy some subs (refurbished or new Kilos, or additional Scorpenes?) in the interim and work on our new sub only? In-house design? How many ToTs we have to get before we are ready to do it ourselves?

[fanne]

From 1 to 2 in India it is done through limited series production - LSP for LCA, LCH,LUH,ATAGS, Dhanush, Astra. The initial order of 12 or 50 units are exactly that, and a right way to do things. Navy does by project XXA, XXB etc.

[fanne]

enquoob?

[kit]

Can I ask questions on submarine.

1. Did we get HDW submarine ToT (just like Bofors?)?
2. South Korea got the same sub and ToT 10 years after us and they developed further on it and now handing us a derivative of that.
3. They have of course all round improved it, and added LIon battery, Ballistic missile launcher and AIP to it (we have none of this either from HDW or Scropoene ToT).
4. We have Scorpene ToT (supposedly not great ToT, screwdriver giri, but HDW was some real ToT, at least it was for S. Korea).
5. We have AIP from DRDO, we have ballistic missile launcher tech from Arihant class of ships, Lion battery, we are developing something or buy that tech from sk or Japan
6. Why cant we have the next sub our own? Why beg anyone. Yes it will take time, but it will always take time. Can we buy some subs (refurbished or new Kilos, or additional Scorpenes?) in the interim and work on our new sub only? In-house design? How many ToTs we have to get before we are ready to do it ourselves?

my guess is TOT is ability to build from components that would be imported., so essentially screwdriver tech. There is the know-how., but no know why which comes with having an industrial base capable of doing this. The South Koreans had that., so was able to build on and improve on it.(Having said that I think apart from a key niche tech of sub building, India is now in a similar position). The Bofors saga was also similar, i suspect the ability to indigenise was also there but was not done for some "other" reasons.

Just wait for the indigenous sub design to complete, everyone from Unkle to Japan will be eager to sell their greatest and latest

[ramana]

Also, HDW got allegations of bribes and immediately like Bofors became toxic. So the politicians despite the bribe receivers being in India the bribe givers became verboten and taboo. The follow on order was canceled and the ship-building skills were allowed to whither away.

The HDW bribes were not even probed.
All your questions from 2 to 6 have the same answer. Need a naval expansion plan which was lacking due to the economy in the doldrums since the 1990s.
Its being addressed now.

[fanne]

But like Bofors do we have the blueprints? We may not have the know-why, but if we know the know-how at least we have a starting point. Scorpene should be a later design, but supposedly with lesser know-how (also called some shade of ToT). We can use either as the base, have provision for AIP, Plug for firing missiles and LI battery. How will we scale the engine? Who will provide that?
It is said that margins for subs buoyancy is in the range of 5%, you get that wrong and sub is dead. Regardless, we can have our own design or this time have real ToT- I.e. Know how (and if possible know-why) to make everything in-house if we go ahead with the foreign vendor.

[ramana]

fanne, Did you read how Bofors blueprints got to develop Dhanush?
They had a team to OFB, Artillery to study the blueprints of each and every part to understand what was its role and then designed the Dhanush with improvements. And had the team reporting to the Lt Gen Artillery. Who after retirement is at IITM trying to still push for it.

Now which admiral wants to push for HDW when IN has moved on to Scorpene and L&T is cranking out one every 18 months?
Yes SoKo had the foresight and an industrial base. Its chaebol/tycoons can bribe the politicians.
In India, the tycoons get bribed from abroad.
Let us move on.

[YashG]

Is it just me or others also on this forum observe that equipment induction in Indian armed forces has become very slow. All of a sudden a whole lot of systems that are developed and should be inducted are just waiting to be inducted.

Is the fact that inspite of procurement budgets being allocated, all of them are not being actively spent by MoD perhaps on cue with finmin due to spends in other areas.

[bala]

Biggest Push for Make in India I Indian Plan for Defence Manufacturing I Air Marshal GS Bedi I Aadi



Hope what the Air Marshal is saying becomes a reality. Indian defence manufacturing is highly needed and make in India is a must. There is enormous talent to be tapped within the nation, instead of working for foreign/videshi entities MOD should be bettering the armed forces weapons/equipment, India must be on the path of bettering its own. Co-opting academia in the country would make eminent sense. New and novel ideas must be encouraged.

[ramana]

Dated paper on DRDo perspective on National Security technology

https://www.idsa.in/system/files/jds_3_3_nrkrishnan.pdf

[ramana]

DRDO chief given a one-year extension.
I think its to enable the DRDO transformation.

[Rakesh]

DRDO chief given a one-year extension.
I think its to enable the DRDO transformation.

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1795078392871637178 ---> Just In: DRDO Chief Samir V Kamat gets an extension of service by one year till May 2025.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ANI/status/1795076658908504539 ---> Government of India extends the term of Dr Samir V Kamat, Secretary, Department of Defence Research and Development and Chairman, Defence Research Development Organisation for one year till 31 May 2025.

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1795132604330455414 ---> First time in many years that a DRDO chief has not moved a file for his own service extension!

[sanman]

So is India now being charged double for the price of the Rafale-M by France? If so, why?

[Manish_P]

With the poll verdict in i guess a lot of big ticket items might get put on the back-burner.

More funds will be needed to keep the masses 'happy' before the 2029 polls.

Hope to see made in india items orders being placed... at least the money will stay in india

Also exports need to be given a big push. Earn money on it

[sanman]

[hemant_sai]

There are 3 things that must be fixed on high priority to improve defence psu,
1) Remove incompetent defence minister. Unfortunately other than Ashwini Vaishnaw there is no reliable option available. But we can't change his portfolio for now.
So there should be search to find that next Manohar Parrikar or Ashwini Vaishnaw.
2) Labour unions must be banned from defence psu.
3) HR of defence psu must be empowered to overhaul professional culture and policies with competitive salaries for important positions

[hemant_sai]

K. Annamalai could be best choice for defence minister.
Your thoughts please.

[sanjayc]

K. Annamalai could be best choice for defence minister.
Your thoughts please.

He is too political lightweight for that. Will be better as Minister of State for Home

[hemant_sai]

He is too political lightweight for that. Will be better as Minister of State for Home

He has MBA and Tech degree. On top of that he has served as IPS.
If not DM then MoS for Defense would be better than MoS Home.

But if political heavyweight carries his own ego then will he be able to fix things as MoS Defense?

[SRajesh]

K. Annamalai could be best choice for defence minister.
Your thoughts please.

At least to start as Mos
He speaks with fairly good insight on the subject.
Qualified as a Technocrat
But also has a first experience of Babudom
An asset to be looked after for future
Agree should be Defence as Shri Khadi Ninja has been taken for granted by a lot of Baboos

[chetak]

K. Annamalai could be best choice for defence minister.
Your thoughts please.

At least to start as Mos
He speaks with fairly good insight on the subject.
Qualified as a Technocrat
But also has a first experience of Babudom
An asset to be looked after for future
Agree should be Defence as Shri Khadi Ninja has been taken for granted by a lot of Baboos

SRajesh ji,

at the outset, one is a big fan of Annamalai

that said, how is he any different from many of the posters on the forum

He is certainly an asset to be nurtured and groomed for future

He would be a disaster in the MOD, so it would be best to ease him in gently via some nondescript ministry as mos

The BJP is the best judge of course, but of late, some easily avoidable mistakes are being made and such mistakes often have serious consequences

They have already sidelined Annamalai once before at the idiotic demand of some TN politician clown eps/ops/ups/bps or whoever, and that guy seems to have crashed and burned in the recent elections

BTW, look at how the BJP handled Gen V K Singh and offended the largish and quite powerful rajput lobby which revolted when he was eased out.

the bjp had no option but to bring him back in, as the governor of Mizoram, and the good general was not even considered for a stint as the defence minister

and today, akaless in UP is desperately running around in a rajput turban, fiercely garlanding every Hindu deity in sight, while trying to convince the community to vote for him

General Vijay Kumar Singh (Retd.) was born into the Tomar clan of Rajputs in Bapora village, Bhiwani district, Haryana. A third-generation military officer, he was commissioned into the 2nd Battalion of the Rajput Regiment in 1970 and later commanded the 25th Battalion, eventually becoming the 24th Chief of the Indian Army.

Military and Regimental Connection
The Rajput Regiment: He shares a profound tie with the Rajput Regiment. His father, grandfather, and uncles all served in either the Rajput Regiment or Skinner's Horse, cementing a long family tradition of military valor associated with the community.

[sanjayc]

SRajesh ji....

Generals bring their own history with them from their service. I did read somewhere that top brass of the army who worked with Gen. VK Singh did not want him placed over their heads as the Def. Minister, and told the Govt. so in no uncertain terms. Hence he was given another ministry

[chetak]

Generals bring their own history with them from their service. I did read somewhere that top brass of the army who worked with Gen. VK Singh did not want him placed over their heads as the Def. Minister, and told the Govt. so in no uncertain terms. Hence he was given another ministry

sanjayc ji,

no uniformed bloke(s) has/have the testimonials to voice such an opinion / place such conditions, especially with this govt.

this is what is meant by civil military relations. Even the babooze are extremely wary

It did however work for a very short while during raincoat's regime but that was a very sharp sword that actually cut both ways..............

Among other things, it would completely wipe out any future prospects, post retirement, that they may be fantasizing about

[Manish_Sharma]

https://x.com/ImperiumHindu/status/2058 ... 93997?s=20

How the hell blaady yahudis are penetrating our defence procurement sector to such an extent ??? (Nibe is just screwdrivering Israeli PULS rocket & Sky Stryker UAV)

This was almost an unknown company which now screwdrivers Israeli weapons, is given full access to Army testing facilities and is now lent credibility by none other than CDS himself.

When Indian firm Solar industries pitched 100% indigenously designed Maheshwarastra which was in the same class of rockets that this Nibe is screwdrivering in 2022, it was rejected/ ignored by army.

We now suddenly want this capability and some obscure firm Nibe is given full support from topmost echelons of defence establishment for this.

This can no longer be taken lightly.

We are seeing how Indigenous weapons are systematically being sidelined, not given funding or kept perpetually in testing mode and never ordered.

This is not a behaviour of a future great power but a third rate nation which cannot even punch at its weight.

@PMOIndia

@narendramodi

Needs to wake up and change the direction which MoD has taken in a radical way.

https://x.com/theanonlurker/status/2058 ... 26952?s=20

Didn't OROP army claim there was no need of long range rockets just 3 years back when Solar group proposed it?

https://x.com/dotcom_1106/status/205816 ... 03369?s=20

Why will any firm do R&D if they can win big orders by just stuff & sell its as indigenised stuff. This is where actually Pinaka & those who develop real stuff loses.

Pure show from Rajnath Singh & MoD, delaying real IDDM stuff n making great again with big orders.

[Prem Kumar]

K. Annamalai could be best choice for defence minister.
Your thoughts please.

Annamalai is needed in TN to grow BJP. This is what he is uniquely suited to do & would have done, if not for the colossal screw-up by Amit Shah (who listened to RSS idiots like Gurumurthy and back-stabbing losers in TN BJP)

BJP coming to power in TN is an impossibility without Annamalai & his focus must not be allowed to stray from it

Nothing will please the TN BJP losers, TVK & Dravida parties more than shunting him off to Delhi

[Prem Kumar]

Read this excellent piece by Swarajya

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/the-pen ... n-capacity

The Pentagon has revamped its procurement doctrine while Kadi Ninda is still deciding which orders can be given to private industries, how to differentiate between IDDM vs Screwdriver-giri etc

Armed Forces Chiefs like Navarane are spewing Aman-ki-Asha nonsense

The rest of them are busy pretending that wars will be "short-n-sweet" because they haven't prepared for anything else

Rajnath must go. And if Modi cannot personally step-in & clean-up, he must go as well. We need fresh blood. Our civilization's future is at stake

[VinodTK]

DRDO clears ULPGM-V3 missile for mass production after trials

Final trials success: DRDO validated the ULPGM‑V3 in air‑to‑ground and air‑to‑air modes at Kurnool, confirming operational readiness.

Indigenous production push: Built entirely in India with MSME support, the missile is ready for serial mass production by Bharat Dynamics and Adani Defence.

Enhanced combat capability: Lightweight, fire‑and‑forget design offers anti‑tank, bunker‑busting, and counter‑drone roles for UAV platforms.