Delivered by @usairforce Special Air Assignment Mission Flight, these add to the 3 delivered earlier in Jun 21 in #UnitedStates.
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... kl8tA&s=19
Long overdue. Will be an excellent value addition to the IN's helo ASW/AShW capability (which is basically non-existent right now).ashishvikas wrote:The first tranche of #MH 60R helos were received by #IndianNavy at @KochiAirport with the traditional welcome ceremony.
Delivered by @usairforce Special Air Assignment Mission Flight, these add to the 3 delivered earlier in Jun 21 in #UnitedStates.
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... kl8tA&s=19
I agree with everything HVT’s said- the 3 options he lays out are the ONLY aircraft in existence or planned that are 100% compatible with both aircraft carriers fully (not just able to squeeze themselves into their lifts)Rakesh wrote:The lift design was copied from the Vikramaditya. And the lifts of that vessel are designed to accommodate the MiG-29K and the Naval Tejas. The argument is that it serves the Navy's needs. See below...KSingh wrote:The absolute myopia (or something more sinister/insidious?) of the IN to design their entire aviation complex including the lifts around the 29K (with one of the smallest folded wing cross sections of any carrier fighter)
The CDG which has almost identical dimensions to the IAC-1 in terms of length and displacement has 2X lifts that the Rafales (with wingtips attached) can use with easily 1-1.5m of clearance EITHER SIDE of the wings.
The QE Class can lift a CH-47 with none of its blades detached/folded.
What is the IN thinking building carriers with the smallest aircraft lifts they possibly could? This is criminal negligence and has lead to this entire debacle.
As I must keep reminding everyone the Rafale’s wing issues are not unique to it, even with the SH’s wings folded it can’t use the Vikrant’s lifts without a specially designed jig tilting the airframe
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14232 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> Lifts seem to be perfect. We don't exactly need to design for some imported aircraft. Our present and future aircraft fit well, and perhaps we should not eat into storage space by making extras large lifts. It's a tight fit, which is in some ways, most optimized.
So present and future aircraft fit well
The suboptimal fit is the Rafale M and F-18SH
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14236 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> No constraints from where an Indian Navy person sees it. There are three aircraft IAC fits, i.e.
* MiG-29K; which IN operates,
* LCA-Navy; which is undergoing tests by IN,
* TEDBF; which is being designed on IN's specs.
Lifts are designed by IN. No constraints as far as IN knows.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14236 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> I don't think imported aircraft fit into Indian scheme of things. They don't fit.
https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/14238 ... dF1uECKNZw ---> I love Rafale. But they've not exactly designed it for our Navy. So....
IN tells us they need 123 NMRH in Sea King/MH-60R class then go and order just 24. With DBMRH/IMRH not even sanctioned by the GoI yet it’s surely inevitable they order more because their Sea King fleet is already hilariously outdatedRakesh wrote:Long overdue. Will be an excellent value addition to the IN's helo ASW/AShW capability (which is basically non-existent right now).ashishvikas wrote:The first tranche of #MH 60R helos were received by #IndianNavy at @KochiAirport with the traditional welcome ceremony.
Delivered by @usairforce Special Air Assignment Mission Flight, these add to the 3 delivered earlier in Jun 21 in #UnitedStates.
https://twitter.com/indiannavy/status/1 ... kl8tA&s=19
I really hope the IN orders another 18 - 24. The 24 is not enough for all the surface combatants the IN has.
And this is value for money....any day better spent than acquiring shiny MRCBFs.
It is now becoming really personal for Boeing. Watch them pull out all the stops now.YashG wrote:I think it will come down to wire. Both France & US will fight very hard to get this contract.
But who needs it more?
US
Who has natural cost advantages ?
Rafale due to existing maintenance infra and weapons commonality, but F/A-18 is cheaper inherently due to its long production run.
Who will be ready to cut the costs to the hilt?
While the answer may seem like US but should be France - Because if it wins here, it will make it even easier to get part or whole of 114 MRFAs. Because PBL contracts will become less costly to offer; If like IAF Rafale deal, there is a PBL based contract here, Rafale will come cheaper as you will be stocking long tail consumables or LRUs via a common stock for IN & IAF. Those spares and personnel cost will make PBL cheaper for Rafale; Additionally making India an MRO hub for Safran engines.
I do hope this happens. With the Naval version of the HAL LUH filling the Navy's requirement of 111 Naval utility helosKSingh wrote:
IN tells us they need 123 NMRH in Sea King/MH-60R class then go and order just 24. With DBMRH/IMRH not even sanctioned by the GoI yet it’s surely inevitable they order more because their Sea King fleet is already hilariously outdated
Yet another master stoke in planning
They say they need 2 engines for NUH so it will have to be ALH-NUH for that role. Although there was talk of splitting 111 NUH between ALH and LUH, I presume the latter would be purely for shore duties for ab-intio training of new pilotsChinmay wrote:I do hope this happens. With the Naval version of the HAL LUH filling the Navy's requirement of 111 Naval utility helosKSingh wrote:
IN tells us they need 123 NMRH in Sea King/MH-60R class then go and order just 24. With DBMRH/IMRH not even sanctioned by the GoI yet it’s surely inevitable they order more because their Sea King fleet is already hilariously outdated
Yet another master stoke in planning
US declines to extend price offer beyond July 31 for Government-to-Government deal, programme pushed back to Square One.
Good. That will teach the US to interfere with India on CAASTA.Rakesh wrote:C-17 Redux?
Indian Navy's Multi-Billion Programme To Buy 6 More Boeing P8I Reconnaissance Aircraft Stalls
https://www.businessworld.in/article/In ... 22-439930/
01 Aug 2022
US declines to extend price offer beyond July 31 for Government-to-Government deal, programme pushed back to Square One.
https://twitter.com/arunp2810/status/15 ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> Not much heft left after your clinical commentary. But here are views on some vexed issues. Bearing in mind that politics - eventually - trumps all: viewtopic.php?f=3&p=2561057#p2561057Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/JA_Maolankar/status ... NVCfY9mzCw ---> #10 Studiously avoiding the DF21 v/s Carrier v/s Island aircraft carriers v/s Submarines debate completely. @arunp2810 - Probably need your heft on this one Sir!
Read below - from Page 14 of the above link. If the IAF and IN set aside their differences over aircraft carriers, they can replicate this on the IN's aircraft carriers. That is assuming the Rafale M is chosen in the MRCBF contest.Rakesh wrote:The Aircraft Carrier Connundrum and India's Dilemma
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gL2 ... sW0hk/edit
By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd) - Former Chief of Naval Staff, Indian Navy
In the context of carriers, of even greater interest is the sterling example of ‘jointness’ demonstrated by the British services on board HMS Queen Elizabeth in 2021. The F-35B fighters embarked on board this ship belong to a Royal Air Force unit, No. 617 Squadron. The squadron is manned by a joint crew (including pilots) of RAF and RN personnel and, uniquely, the Commanding Officer of this RAF squadron is a Royal Navy officer.
Given its growing reach and strategic capabilities, that include long-range strike, aerial-refuelling and AWACS, the IAF can be a powerful ally whose cooperation the IN must actively seek. This may be a good time for the two Services to get together and, instead of bickering over the ‘budgetary cake’ and hardware, evolve an Air-Sea Battle Doctrine which would create an effective air-power synergy between IN aircraft-carriers and IAF shore-based units.
The joint helicopter command as mentioned in the article is also a great example of interoperability and something which could have resolved the IA vs IAF helo tussles. Wonder if our Theatre commands could ever do something similar in the future.Rakesh wrote:The Aircraft Carrier Connundrum and India's Dilemma
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1gL2 ... sW0hk/edit
By Admiral Arun Prakash (Retd) - Former Chief of Naval Staff, Indian Navy
Anti-Submarine Warfare
Leveraging MQ-9B’s open architecture system, SeaGuardian operators have the option to integrate our ground-breaking sonobuoy management and control system (SMCS) and sonobuoy dispenser system (SDS). Together, these systems allow SeaGuardian operators to deploy, monitor and control sonobuoys from a single RPAS. Also, SeaGuardian has four wing stations available to carry up to 4 SDS pods, enabling it to hold and dispense up to 40 ‘A’ size or 80 ‘G’ size sonobuoys and remotely perform ASW anywhere in the world. In its standard maritime ISR and ASW configuration, SeaGuardian’s range encompasses a mission radius of 1200 nautical miles with significant on-station time for submarine prosecution, providing a low-cost, stand-alone capability or a complement to human-crewed aircraft for manned-unmanned teaming operations.
Thought this deal was dead based on the reports coming out early this year... Maybe a Caatsa sweetener?Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... LcXoRYFbiA ---> Just In: The deal for 30 Predator (MQ-9B) UAVs with the US is expected to be finalised soon. The Indian Navy has been pushing for the deal and it will be done soon. Total cost almost $3 billion.
I wish there was a slick know your LCA, Arjun, Atags, Tapas etc pages.Rakesh wrote:Brush up on your MQ-9B platform ---> https://www.ga-asi.com/remotely-piloted-aircraft/mq-9b
We are peace loving onlee. It is all about loving your lovingsks_sachin wrote:I wish there was a slick know your LCA, Arjun, Atags, Tapas etc pages.
No CAATSA... That is more like like a Cassata! Does Boeing have any strategic bombers that they can throw into the mix?Rakesh wrote:Probably that is what it is. Or perhaps setting up the foundation for the F-18SH.
One of Boeing's marketing push to the IN was the combo of the P-8I + M-60R + MQ9B working alongside the F-18SH.
I think this will have to be done. Not just as some type of Hafta to keep US MIC in favor, but also because the Navy needs the platforms, badly. This could be the balm used to soothe the pain of the white swans and not just the s400Rakesh wrote:Probably that is what it is. Or perhaps setting up the foundation for the F-18SH.
One of Boeing's marketing push to the IN was the combo of the P-8I + M-60R + MQ9B working alongside the F-18SH.
Maybe for navy 10-15 UAVs cud mk sense but for IA, IAF why?Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... LcXoRYFbiA ---> Just In: The deal for 30 Predator (MQ-9B) UAVs with the US is expected to be finalised soon. The Indian Navy has been pushing for the deal and it will be done soon. Total cost almost $3 billion.
I also cant understand that why indian military planners forget logistics 101. Indian navy should limit the types it operates. Mig29, F18 and then TEDBF - So u will have indian, russian and american supply chains running a 2 carrier navy. I mean is there even a limit to our follies in planning.Rakesh wrote:Probably that is what it is. Or perhaps setting up the foundation for the F-18SH.
One of Boeing's marketing push to the IN was the combo of the P-8I + M-60R + MQ9B working alongside the F-18SH.
Pay hafta, increase numbers of P8-i, MH60 & Chinooks.Cain Marko wrote:I think this will have to be done. Not just as some type of Hafta to keep US MIC in favor, but also because the Navy needs the platforms, badly. This could be the balm used to soothe the pain of the white swans and not just the s400Rakesh wrote:Probably that is what it is. Or perhaps setting up the foundation for the F-18SH.
One of Boeing's marketing push to the IN was the combo of the P-8I + M-60R + MQ9B working alongside the F-18SH.
It is time too loosen the purse strings... Carrots like mrca rafale, the above mrfa package, white swans ityadi will have to be dangled to buy peace and to allow for an economy growing at the current rate. Once the the country becomes a 5-10 trillion monster, others will pay India Hafta too. Just the nature of the game
Sources indicate that Indian Navy has been pushing for High Altitude Long Endurance (HALE) drones and negotiations are underway.
I am not a naval engineer (or any type of structural engineer), but if for some reason the Rafale M does win, they might cut out that cavity for the aircraft to pass through. I am not sure what other challenges that will bring.AkshaySG wrote:Good spot.
But this would have been known from Day 1 to both IN and Dassault, If it didn't fit then why would they even bother with the whole charade.
I'm assuming it's a tight fit and requires a much longer time to enter and exit the hangar but Dassault is hoping that the commonality with IAF is enough to overcome that.
Even with its wings folded the F-18's wingspan is nearly 10m. About 1m less than the Rafale M. I doubt the F-18 can fit through that opening easily either. The designers made damn sure nothing except the Mig-29K would fit in there. But I remember Boeing had proposed some solution of tilting the aircraft on its landing gear like a Bajaj scooter to overcome that at one point.Rakesh wrote: Remember, while the F-18SH's wings fold, the Rafale M does not have that feature. So the wingtips of the Rafale M have to be removed, for the aircraft to go down the lift. But after crossing that hurdle, the Rafale M will have to enter the cavity of the aircraft hangar. Now see the picture below. The width entrance to the aircraft carrier's hanger is distinctly smaller than the lift itself. And the lift can clearly be seen in the picture. So unless the width of the Rafale M - minus the wingtips - can fit through that cavity, it is doubtful that the Rafale M will win the contest.
Aren't they already there.nachiket wrote: I'm sure the IN doesn't want to be in a situation where they have a carrier full of shiny new jets while their entire submarine force is reduced to 6 Scorpenes with no new boats in sight and all the old ones decommissioned.