The same trick was pulled by the North Koreans at the fall of the Soviet Union in order to kick start their icbm missile programRsatchi wrote:Also is there are anyway we could get some of Ukr Turbine folks for Naval engine??
Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
-
- BRF Oldie
- Posts: 4111
- Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
- Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
At some point, the powers that be must realize than in certain areas, investment, R&D must continue despite not having a finished product and a timeline. Our establishment sanctions funds based on end products and in certain tech, it is not possible to define a product until we have established a vast knowledge base.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Although a slight digression, we know that HAL has been making AL31 engines and an upgrade of some form is needed for the Su
I understand that our contract with Russia limits complete indigenization.
My understanding from this forum and other reading is that high temp material science like CMC and not fabrication is the last missing part of getting Kabini upto action.
Since AL 31 were probably designed before GE made CMC common, I am assuming that it uses directionally solidified materials and not CMC which I understand we have learned if not mastered
Can some guru shed some light on whether we are pretty much capable of rev eng the Al 31 and limited by contract conditions or is it something else.
I understand that our contract with Russia limits complete indigenization.
My understanding from this forum and other reading is that high temp material science like CMC and not fabrication is the last missing part of getting Kabini upto action.
Since AL 31 were probably designed before GE made CMC common, I am assuming that it uses directionally solidified materials and not CMC which I understand we have learned if not mastered
Can some guru shed some light on whether we are pretty much capable of rev eng the Al 31 and limited by contract conditions or is it something else.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I had asked a similar question earlier on the thread. Response is attached below for your reference.Dexter wrote:
Can some guru shed some light on whether we are pretty much capable of rev eng the Al 31 and limited by contract conditions or is it something else.
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&start=5680#p2563313
SidSoma wrote:I remember consulting for an Indian Tier 2 machining house to create 3D models from the available drawings for some important engine parts. The Tier 2 house had tried for over an year and failed. We were able to create a model quite close to the final product in 6 months time with lots of input from Russia. However the parts were to be machined, not from solid metal, but from highly precise castings, which were (as you can guess) completely imported. And these were important parts but not what we consider critical. I was given to understand that after we submitted our work the Tier 2 house was able to machine the part from casting in about 2 years time. (Development sometime takes that long due to the accuracies) involved. This kind of highlights the difficulty in producing the parts. OEMs will ensure that they will provide the tools (which have a certain life) and customised Raw material in the form of castings and blanks to ensure that copies cannot be made beyond a certain number.Pratyush wrote:Is it possible to copy the AL31, with the process and materials developed in India for the Kaveri or the HTFE25?
I am sure that China has paid (or stolen) Russia to get the complete ToT to be able to reverse engineer some of their planes. I find it difficult to digest that only Reverse engineering is at play.
TLDR: NO.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
If anyone cares to remember around 10-15 years back China was poaching and head-hunting talent quite openly from all around the world., the best brains from the erstwhile Soviet Union were given red carpet treatment. What they couldn't get they stole or bribed. Those news reports would be on BRF. It was quite a sensation but nobody cared.They spend on infrastructure for R&D like there was no tomorrow. Researchers were given the very best of everything and anything they wanted.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Are u saying they took the best and left Putin and his cronies behind?kit wrote:If anyone cares to remember around 10-15 years back China was poaching and head-hunting talent quite openly from all around the world., the best brains from the erstwhile Soviet Union were given red carpet treatment..
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
who knows , the best of old soviet talent is likely in Israel , China and the USks_sachin wrote:Are u saying they took the best and left Putin and his cronies behind?kit wrote:If anyone cares to remember around 10-15 years back China was poaching and head-hunting talent quite openly from all around the world., the best brains from the erstwhile Soviet Union were given red carpet treatment..
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Let's address the elephant in the room right away. Full ToT (100%) is not coming, but nevertheless, this is still a good move. I hope a MROU facility for the GE F404 and F414 turbofans also come.
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/158 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> So GE-F414-INS6 will be manufactured in India under ToT (100%). The engine is going to power-up LCA Mk-II, TEDBF & AMCA MkI.
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/158 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> "..we had MoU with GE for its manufacturing with 100 per cent transfer of technology..." : LCA Mk-II Project Director Dr. V. Madhusudana.
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/158 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> So GE-F414-INS6 will be manufactured in India under ToT (100%). The engine is going to power-up LCA Mk-II, TEDBF & AMCA MkI.
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/158 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> "..we had MoU with GE for its manufacturing with 100 per cent transfer of technology..." : LCA Mk-II Project Director Dr. V. Madhusudana.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Incredible how Kaveri even with sub optimal thrust levels plays a role in influencing major players to set up factories here.
Expecting Safran to put a similar offer if Rafale is selected.
Expecting Safran to put a similar offer if Rafale is selected.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
What you said needs to be repeated by all of us and should be digested by all generals/mantris/babus. You build it and they will come. We need to take up desi jet engine project along the lines of IGMDP. Regardless of the Success or failure we need to put the infra in place.arvin wrote:Incredible how Kaveri even with sub optimal thrust levels plays a role in influencing major players to set up factories here.
Last edited by Jay on 22 Oct 2022 00:42, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
^^^^^
That was always the game plan - to manufacture 414s in India.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 401384.cms
August 17, 2021
That was always the game plan - to manufacture 414s in India.
https://www.google.com/amp/s/m.timesofi ... 401384.cms
August 17, 2021
HAL added that ordering of the engines marks a major milestone in the execution of 83 LCA contracts with IAF. The co-operation will be further enhanced with the manufacturing of GE F414 engines in India for the upcoming LCA MkII programme
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The manufacture of GE F414 engine in India is another screwdrivergiri project, critical parts will be sent by GE. The only hope is other parts can be manufactured progressively by private players in India. In some sense the engine gets indigenized up to a certain percentage. Again, no additional gyan can be obtained and GE will poach HAL key employees. India has to step up R&D in materials technology.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://midhani-india.in/bala wrote: India has to step up R&D in materials technology.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Often some director sahibaan open their big mount without thinking and/or authorization. Unintended casualty of which is airchair Air Mashals needing ENO.Rakesh wrote:Let's address the elephant in the room right away. Full ToT (100%) is not coming, but nevertheless, this is still a good move. I hope a MROU facility for the GE F404 and F414 turbofans also come.
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/158 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> So GE-F414-INS6 will be manufactured in India under ToT (100%). The engine is going to power-up LCA Mk-II, TEDBF & AMCA MkI.
https://twitter.com/VinodDX9/status/158 ... R1WHH17Cog ---> "..we had MoU with GE for its manufacturing with 100 per cent transfer of technology..." : LCA Mk-II Project Director Dr. V. Madhusudana.
IMHO Dr Madhusudan can avoid embarrassing himself by "piyo magar rakkho hisaab, thodi thodi piya karo"
https://twitter.com/HaridasKukkur/statu ... e-2WBSw0Cw
Luft leejiyey iss gazal kaa:
https://youtu.be/_vEcs_menUk?t=1m10s
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
He meant we will be assembling the engine here as discussed with GE earlier. Given we're going to have 3 aircraft using the same engine. It was evident from talking to him but of course people have to write something to sell no. He said 100% manufacturing ToT. Which isn't really anything but assembly of kits. And maybe local manufacturing of some parts given HAL does make engines.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Good clarification. Also that helps exports.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Next foreign engine manufacturer - right on the heels of the GE F414 announcement - has also arrived. This is similar in importance to the F414 announcement, as this will have a direct correlation (and a big boost) for Rafale F4 in the MRFA (IAF) and MRCBF (IN) contests. The M88 turbofan is used by the Rafale and the F414 is used by the F-18SH. Once again, just like with the F414 announcement, a MROU facility would be nice. I am assuming these will be are coming. The TR40 announcement is very interesting.arvin wrote:Incredible how Kaveri even with sub optimal thrust levels plays a role in influencing major players to set up factories here.
Expecting Safran to put a similar offer if Rafale is selected.
Once again, screwdrivergiri onlee. But still, a good development.
Click here for more info on the TR40 ---> https://www.safran-group.com/products-s ... jet-engine
https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... KbIN4-vREA ---> Safran and Bharat Dynamics Limited plans to set up green field project for M-88 and TR-40 engines through Joint Venture Mode.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Money for MRFA and MRCBF exists, but no money for a couple of flying test beds.
Used B747s and A340s are available on the market. Our priorities!
https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... KbIN4-vREA ---> Exciting news! DRDO Kaveri Dry variant, has been sent to Russia for High Altitude Trials! It will proceed towards flight trials in test bed (FTB) on the IL-76 flying testbed once trials are complete. This will paveway for integration with Ghatak Class UCAV.
Used B747s and A340s are available on the market. Our priorities!
https://twitter.com/DefenceReach/status ... KbIN4-vREA ---> Exciting news! DRDO Kaveri Dry variant, has been sent to Russia for High Altitude Trials! It will proceed towards flight trials in test bed (FTB) on the IL-76 flying testbed once trials are complete. This will paveway for integration with Ghatak Class UCAV.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I was intrigued by the TR40 JV.
With this engine, we have overcome the one missing piece for the Indian equivalent of the NSM.
With this engine, we have overcome the one missing piece for the Indian equivalent of the NSM.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Bro.... Do you even realise how important this is....bala wrote:The manufacture of GE F414 engine in India is another screwdrivergiri project, critical parts will be sent by GE. The only hope is other parts can be manufactured progressively by private players in India. In some sense the engine gets indigenized up to a certain percentage. Again, no additional gyan can be obtained and GE will poach HAL key employees. India has to step up R&D in materials technology.
Let me tell you.... our Marut didn't get it's lime light because of weaker engine....
You want us to develop our own engine, but that's not coming anytime soon, if we are lucky and pour shit tonne of money, then maybe in two decades... Heck China poured shit tonne of money for god knows how long, but their engines are worse than Russian engines....
With GE 414 engines "Screwdriver giri" at least IAF will buy our Indian aircraft and we will feel safe... That's not the case with Russian Engines....
BTW, how many other countries are doing Screwdriver Giri of GE 414?
This is probably the biggest benefit we got from USA since nuclear deal...
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Some people don't understand reality but give neti, neti advice.
BTW it's GE who will own that screwdriver factory.
Their money, their technology, their product.
HAL buys the engine just like any component.
And it's the INS6 version.
BTW it's GE who will own that screwdriver factory.
Their money, their technology, their product.
HAL buys the engine just like any component.
And it's the INS6 version.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Bhai...I believe that is to be a collaboration between GE and local private vendors...ramana wrote:Some people don't understand reality but give neti, neti advice.
BTW it's GE who will own that screwdriver factory.
Their money, their technology, their product.
HAL buys the engine just like any component.
And it's the INS6 version.
With GE factory in India, I am hoping for two things to happen....
Private investment in Aero Engines will increase.
We will not face any engine availability fears for our aircraft.
Apart from GE, HAL collaborators (RR or Safran) support in our Project Ganga will increase.... GE factory will be our assurance and nightmare for our engine collaborators.... If Ganga fails then they will not get money.... Everyone is talking about F414INS6 but can they say if we don't have Ganga flying in next two decades, will we not do same screwdriver giri for F414EPE?
Not only that with world class GE engines manufacturing factory, we will be also forced to develop world class manufacturing machinery for aero engines...
Bhai I am sure you can talk a lot about how world class aircraft manufacturing techniques helped us improve Tejas TD to LSP and SP. The difference in quality of construction itself between LSP and SP was enough to improve it's performance....
I am excited.... Jumping.... Because of F414 INS6 is coming to India
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Nothing to get excited about , I was hoping for a fully indigenous family of engines. GE maybe smelt that if they didn't jump in now, they would lose the Indian Market in a decade or so . Many indigenous manufacturing technologies are maturing that would facilitate aero engine manufacture, this kind of screw driver tech would kill that initiative.VishnuS wrote:....
You need to think strategically not for a short term gain.
Look how the LCA changed Indian aerospace industry
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Sirjee - VishnuS is absolutely spot onkit wrote:Nothing to get excited about , I was hoping for a fully indigenous family of engines. GE maybe smelt that if they didn't jump in now, they would lose the Indian Market in a decade or so . Many indigenous manufacturing technologies are maturing that would facilitate aero engine manufacture, this kind of screw driver tech would kill that initiative.VishnuS wrote:....
You need to think strategically not for a short term gain.
Look how the LCA changed Indian aerospace industry
No GE-404, no Tejas Mk1 - Period
No Tejas, then no Tejas Mk1A, Mk2, AMCA, TEDBF
The success of the entire Indian aviation ecosystem hinges on an assured supply of GE-404 / GE-414. No other engine is an option at this stage
The high reliability of the engine is one of the two prime reasons for the lack of Tejas crashes...the other one being the well-designed control laws. This is not the case with the MiG-21,23,27 or even the MiG-29 / Su-30 for that matter
I suspect the India-US political thaw / re-engagement and long-term cordial relationship has been explicitly linked to the assured supply of GE-404/414 engines at the highest levels of political leadership. And this has been the case since Rajiv Gandhi's 1980s visit to Ronald Reagan's White Haus.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
No denying that we are improving....kit wrote:Nothing to get excited about , I was hoping for a fully indigenous family of engines. GE maybe smelt that if they didn't jump in now, they would lose the Indian Market in a decade or so . Many indigenous manufacturing technologies are maturing that would facilitate aero engine manufacture, this kind of screw driver tech would kill that initiative.VishnuS wrote:....
You need to think strategically not for a short term gain.
Look how the LCA changed Indian aerospace industry
Let's say GE doesn't build anymore F 414 engines...
Our LCA MK2, TEDBF, AMCA MK1 will be effected.... IAF will not buy our aircraft.... But will GE go bankrupt?? Nope.... Saran or RR will not give us any juicy tech in Project Ganga or worse, they don't collaborate with us.
Now, let's say GE will manufacture F414s in US only.... Then IAF will have all the excuses to reduce orders in the name of sanctions.... We will still buy 5 - 600 F414s in the worst case, and up to 1000 in the best case... What do we gain ?? Nothing ?? Well, GE will sell each engine for $10M and make a shit tonne of money.... Project Ganga will go as is.... But I doubt we will get any juicy stuff...
Now, if GE switches it's F414 to India, it's factories will stay open, we will get engines at cheaper rates, IAF/IN will have no reason to object from Engine POV to stall LCA MK2, TEDBF or AMCA MK1. Not only that, GE moves it's factories, so better engine making machines will be available for us.... Those machinery will be benchmark when we try to develop our own engine manufacturing process... GE will also have to collaborate with local private players, so more investment into aero engines...
With GE engines being made and MTO done at house, our export potential will also increase. Coming to Project Ganga collaboration, they are either to make it a huge success or loose India to GE forever... Cause if Ganga fails after two decades, with GE factory at home, we will produce F414EPE or its updated version for our future aircraft....
Don't believe me?? Rakesh bhai had posted this in Rafale thread, showing how everyone is wooing us...
https://twitter.com/RAFIndia_/status/15 ... eNueE8wB4w
I am not sure how many times I had discussed with friends over here and elsewhere.... There is something called Symbiotic Relationship..... Believe me my friend, we will gain a lot more than what GE gains with this relationship. Heck, we are getting a reliable engine for all our aircraft and we should be happy for that....
If we had such powerful and reliable engine for our Marut, then our Aerospace Industry would have been lot different.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Kit, remember...HAL is doing screwdrivergiri on the Safran Ardiden turboshaft, known as Shakti. That engine powers all our Indian made helos (Dhruv, Prachand, Light Utility Helicopter). Expect a similar model with the GE F414 production and M88 production. The IP will stay with US and France. My only wish is for a MROU facility for these turbofans, but logic tells me that will come. I hate sending platforms (or components) outside of India for servicing, when it can be done in India itself. We did that with the Mi-26, which was a royal waste of money. But then again, we only acquired four examples, so it was not worth it. The F414s and M88s are to be acquired in the hundreds, so obviously it makes business sense.
Where the gamechanger will happen is with the AMCA turbofan. While the first two squadrons (AMCA Mk1) will feature GE F414 turbofans, the plan is to shift to an indigenous one with the AMCA Mk2. That IP transfer is being negotiated with Safran. RR is also rumoured to be negotiating with India, but I have not heard anything about it to date. A future Rafale deal will result in offsetting those IP transfer costs.
Long story short, VishnuS and titash are correct. The value of ToP (Transfer of Production) of a turbofan is valuable when it comes to making our own turbofan for the AMCA Mk2. And India will be doing ToP on not one, but two foreign turbofans (F414 and M88).
P.S. I am surprised how GE (and GOTUS) agreed to this JV with India, in the absence of a fighter deal i.e. MRFA. Perhaps they feel that the F-18SH will win the day in the MRCBF contest. The MRFA contest though is for France to lose. Lets see how this plays out.
Where the gamechanger will happen is with the AMCA turbofan. While the first two squadrons (AMCA Mk1) will feature GE F414 turbofans, the plan is to shift to an indigenous one with the AMCA Mk2. That IP transfer is being negotiated with Safran. RR is also rumoured to be negotiating with India, but I have not heard anything about it to date. A future Rafale deal will result in offsetting those IP transfer costs.
Long story short, VishnuS and titash are correct. The value of ToP (Transfer of Production) of a turbofan is valuable when it comes to making our own turbofan for the AMCA Mk2. And India will be doing ToP on not one, but two foreign turbofans (F414 and M88).
P.S. I am surprised how GE (and GOTUS) agreed to this JV with India, in the absence of a fighter deal i.e. MRFA. Perhaps they feel that the F-18SH will win the day in the MRCBF contest. The MRFA contest though is for France to lose. Lets see how this plays out.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Saar, my Dad dealt with aircraft jet engines his entire life. Those include Soviet/Rus, RR and French. Russian engines are sturdy beasts like the western maal. Nothing inherently to conclude that Russian engines are not safe. The Indian experience with engines at HAL is a different story. Manufacture and operations is another endeavor which is not easy to master. HAL has the benefit of different flavors of engines and I am sure that no other entity in India has the expertize of HAL in aircraft engines. No vendor allows tinkering of their basic engine. Desi engineers are very smart and suggest improvements which never get the nod. West spends a lot of time, money improving things, shaving of inefficiency, since their volumes dictate this goal. RR for example spent billions to get 1% efficiency improvement in their engines. The Soviet/Rus philosophy is different, they have slightly less efficient, more fuel sipping engines, less MTBF, less lifespan etc. But the engines are solid and rugged, Russia operates aircrafts in harsher conditions than their western counterparts. They last for sometime and they are replaced and life moves on.VishnuS wrote: With GE 414 engines "Screwdriver giri" at least IAF will buy our Indian aircraft and we will feel safe... That's not the case with Russian Engines....
This is probably the biggest benefit we got from USA since nuclear deal...
Coming to GE, they are one of the very best in the industry. They have extensive testing facilities in Ohio and furthermore all turbine engines send sensor data back to their Pleasanton, CA facility for big data processing. GE initially will provide all the parts CKD and only selectively allow private firms to manufacture parts under strict terms and conditions. The private angle is mainly to reduce costs. GE like other US firms is under the threat of US Govt Sanctions. GE starting a manufacturing unit in India is not going to move the needle on Desi efforts for an indigenous engine (Kaveri, Ganga, etc.).
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Best option is for Kaveri to power all of our aircraft
Next best option is an engine that is manufactured in India (screwdrivergiri or not)
The next option is to import the engine wholesale.
Given the choice between (2) and (3), (2) is preferrable to three, at least it will provide employment, and taxes. Lets not make perfect the enemy of good, otherwise we will devolve into arguments like "ATAGS uses 20% imported components, so it is not 100% desi, lets import Athos instead"
Rakesh-ji
MRFA or not, Given the plans for MK1A and MK2, I wouldnt be surprised if Indian designed and manufactured planes are the second highest customers for GE engines.
Next best option is an engine that is manufactured in India (screwdrivergiri or not)
The next option is to import the engine wholesale.
Given the choice between (2) and (3), (2) is preferrable to three, at least it will provide employment, and taxes. Lets not make perfect the enemy of good, otherwise we will devolve into arguments like "ATAGS uses 20% imported components, so it is not 100% desi, lets import Athos instead"
Rakesh-ji
MRFA or not, Given the plans for MK1A and MK2, I wouldnt be surprised if Indian designed and manufactured planes are the second highest customers for GE engines.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
No -ji for me pleaseAnujan wrote:Rakesh-ji
MRFA or not, Given the plans for MK1A and MK2, I wouldnt be surprised if Indian designed and manufactured planes are the second highest customers for GE engines.
I fully agree on the business aspect. I am just surprised that such a deal was announced before the completion of the MRCBF and MRFA contests. Such ToP deals are given after a mega deal for Amreeki fighters. In the absence of such, such a JV is a head scratcher.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Am I the one reading this strategic direction wrong?
It started like this
1) GE reluctant to give us engine tech
2) India wooing safran hard, and safran playing coy (not full ToT but some)
Then
3) RR offering full ToT, give us the money
4) GE sees that and offers full ToT (i.e. screwdrivergiri in India, still with great benefits, while RR looks like full ToT)
5) French minister suddenly rushed last week (per reports) and said French is willing to share all Tech
Now
6) GE is making it's engine in India (from I guess parts made in USA)- I believe they were willing to give something close (if not exactly the same deal as of now) with F404 and hence price of lca MK1 was high. We dropped the F404 screwdrived in India and saved a billion dollar and had LCA mk1 prces come down. For F414 - we will have something. But I bet, after we have 'made' 300 engines, and US stop cooperation, we cannot make the 301st engine. Still it is better than being fully dependent. I think we should be able to fully service these engines, even after US stops cooperation.
7) RR is still giving full ToT - The devil will be in the details. If we make 300 engines with them, it looks like we can make the 301st on our own, even if Uk stops cooperation
8] Where does that leave Safran? That was the front runner? Is excessive greed sometimes bad?
All said and done we will need some 3000-5000 engines (counting 3 times replacement) in next 2-3 decade. At 10 million each we are looking at $30-$50 billion market. It is for the above mentioned companies to loose.
It started like this
1) GE reluctant to give us engine tech
2) India wooing safran hard, and safran playing coy (not full ToT but some)
Then
3) RR offering full ToT, give us the money
4) GE sees that and offers full ToT (i.e. screwdrivergiri in India, still with great benefits, while RR looks like full ToT)
5) French minister suddenly rushed last week (per reports) and said French is willing to share all Tech
Now
6) GE is making it's engine in India (from I guess parts made in USA)- I believe they were willing to give something close (if not exactly the same deal as of now) with F404 and hence price of lca MK1 was high. We dropped the F404 screwdrived in India and saved a billion dollar and had LCA mk1 prces come down. For F414 - we will have something. But I bet, after we have 'made' 300 engines, and US stop cooperation, we cannot make the 301st engine. Still it is better than being fully dependent. I think we should be able to fully service these engines, even after US stops cooperation.
7) RR is still giving full ToT - The devil will be in the details. If we make 300 engines with them, it looks like we can make the 301st on our own, even if Uk stops cooperation
8] Where does that leave Safran? That was the front runner? Is excessive greed sometimes bad?
All said and done we will need some 3000-5000 engines (counting 3 times replacement) in next 2-3 decade. At 10 million each we are looking at $30-$50 billion market. It is for the above mentioned companies to loose.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
@ fanne: Safran (or whoever else) still has to provide IP transfer. That is easier said than done.
The only way for such a transfer to be politically and financially palatable to the Indian establishment and electorate, is via offsets from a large fighter aircraft deal i.e. MRFA.
Such a negotiation is ongoing between France and India. And that is not a rumour from some Indian fanboy on youtube or twitter, but a fact confirmed by External Affairs Minister Jaishankar himself. Seeing that negotiation, other players like GE and RR are throwing their hat in the ring as well.
But a fighter has to arrive. From GE's standpoint, there is the F-15EX, F-21 and F-18SH. From RR's standpoint, there is the Eurofighter Typhoon. From Safran's standpoint, there is the Rafale.
The Rafale is the frontrunner in the MRFA contest, because of the 36 Rafales already in service and the ISE investments made. Greed does not even factor here. This is pure business. That's it.
P.S. Rolls Royce stands to lose the most from this. There is no fighter that uses a RR product. The Jaguar is on the way out. Tejas uses a GE turbofan and Rafale uses a Safran turbofan. But is RR in a do & die situation? That is what will determine if RR is willing to open their crown jewels to India. With a new PM in the UK, you never know what could happen.
P.S.S. One thing is certain and not directly related to this discussion. But I will mention it regardless. If you are in India and work in the aviation sector (or even in the manufacturing sector), STAY PUT IN INDIA. Bharat is the verge of a manufacturing and aviation revolution. If NaMo plays his cards right, the Indian citizenry will stand to gain the most from it. I believe NaMo will.
The only way for such a transfer to be politically and financially palatable to the Indian establishment and electorate, is via offsets from a large fighter aircraft deal i.e. MRFA.
Such a negotiation is ongoing between France and India. And that is not a rumour from some Indian fanboy on youtube or twitter, but a fact confirmed by External Affairs Minister Jaishankar himself. Seeing that negotiation, other players like GE and RR are throwing their hat in the ring as well.
But a fighter has to arrive. From GE's standpoint, there is the F-15EX, F-21 and F-18SH. From RR's standpoint, there is the Eurofighter Typhoon. From Safran's standpoint, there is the Rafale.
The Rafale is the frontrunner in the MRFA contest, because of the 36 Rafales already in service and the ISE investments made. Greed does not even factor here. This is pure business. That's it.
P.S. Rolls Royce stands to lose the most from this. There is no fighter that uses a RR product. The Jaguar is on the way out. Tejas uses a GE turbofan and Rafale uses a Safran turbofan. But is RR in a do & die situation? That is what will determine if RR is willing to open their crown jewels to India. With a new PM in the UK, you never know what could happen.
P.S.S. One thing is certain and not directly related to this discussion. But I will mention it regardless. If you are in India and work in the aviation sector (or even in the manufacturing sector), STAY PUT IN INDIA. Bharat is the verge of a manufacturing and aviation revolution. If NaMo plays his cards right, the Indian citizenry will stand to gain the most from it. I believe NaMo will.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Rakesh,
your premise is exclusively based on the fact that engine deal will only follow the aircraft chosen, Mfra, Navy one etc. That could very well be the truth.
However, a second and different view point is this
1) f414 may not be dependent on anything - just on LCAMK2/AMCA/TEDBF - Between these it is easily 1000 engines. That deal was already done 5 years ago. What is new in this is that they are offering 'ToT' to go with it. Who knows what the real deal is, it could be ToT like AL-31F, we can make some part, but critical tech (i.e. from Raw material) still is with US and not with us. We will have some flexibility and some ToT, not all of it.
2) RR has no dog in the race as far as aircraft go. It is simply offering us the engine (i would assume at high price). It has the bride (engine) but no groom (British 6th Gen fighter is years away, in collaboration with Japan, and it may use the the next gen RR engine, not the one they are giving now - The now one is cutting edge, and we are no where near mastering it...so a good deal). So this current 120KN has no use and no one apart from India needs it (China and Russia may, but UK will not sell to them). It has invested heavy money and wants some of it back, mostly to develop the next gen engine. This is of course all my speculation
3) As you say, French offer is dependent on us choosing Rafale. Or Money + French reluctance to share the real 'ToT'. It may see we are getting real tech and decide to share it (and make some money).
After typing this, I realize, we can actually make case for all 3 Engines ToT, but where is the money?
your premise is exclusively based on the fact that engine deal will only follow the aircraft chosen, Mfra, Navy one etc. That could very well be the truth.
However, a second and different view point is this
1) f414 may not be dependent on anything - just on LCAMK2/AMCA/TEDBF - Between these it is easily 1000 engines. That deal was already done 5 years ago. What is new in this is that they are offering 'ToT' to go with it. Who knows what the real deal is, it could be ToT like AL-31F, we can make some part, but critical tech (i.e. from Raw material) still is with US and not with us. We will have some flexibility and some ToT, not all of it.
2) RR has no dog in the race as far as aircraft go. It is simply offering us the engine (i would assume at high price). It has the bride (engine) but no groom (British 6th Gen fighter is years away, in collaboration with Japan, and it may use the the next gen RR engine, not the one they are giving now - The now one is cutting edge, and we are no where near mastering it...so a good deal). So this current 120KN has no use and no one apart from India needs it (China and Russia may, but UK will not sell to them). It has invested heavy money and wants some of it back, mostly to develop the next gen engine. This is of course all my speculation
3) As you say, French offer is dependent on us choosing Rafale. Or Money + French reluctance to share the real 'ToT'. It may see we are getting real tech and decide to share it (and make some money).
After typing this, I realize, we can actually make case for all 3 Engines ToT, but where is the money?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Funny that we are saying the same thing about RR. I would say, not only in aviation, in any sector, STAY PUT IN INDIA - It is the best palce for next few decades - maybe a century. While US science is busy discovering different types of sexes (apparently it is no longer male or female) and Europe busy replacing newclear energy with wooden stove, and the new emperor enforcing 0 covid policy, maybe you want to stay at the only sane place.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The plan to build GE engines in India goes back to the Parrikar days. Parrikar had two plans: Build the GE-404 (recall the GE-414 came into the picture later) and via the DTTI partner with GE to design and manufacture a brand new engine, where GE/India shared the IP. I have a slide deck from GE that was presented in India on a similar roadmap (probably on an older laptop somewhere). Of course, GE declined that IP sharing proposal (although both the US DoD and SD were fine with it), and thus India went along with the only option open: build the GE-414.
However, the plan to build GE engines in India in ancient.
On RR and Safran: I have no idea why people get their hopes up on ANY nation or company "offering" their technologies. No one will ever even sell their crown jewel techs. Think a wee bit, they all have invested decades of time and monies - and only some 4 companies are standing that have THE techs. Why would they part with such techs?
The ONLY way for India to break into that club is for Indians to pour in a filthy amount of monies without caring for anything except the end result. That India, in 2022, is sending one engine t to be tested in Russia says it all.
Best for IAF/ADA/etc to design around a foreign engine. Long live the GE-414 INS6
However, the plan to build GE engines in India in ancient.
On RR and Safran: I have no idea why people get their hopes up on ANY nation or company "offering" their technologies. No one will ever even sell their crown jewel techs. Think a wee bit, they all have invested decades of time and monies - and only some 4 companies are standing that have THE techs. Why would they part with such techs?
The ONLY way for India to break into that club is for Indians to pour in a filthy amount of monies without caring for anything except the end result. That India, in 2022, is sending one engine t to be tested in Russia says it all.
Best for IAF/ADA/etc to design around a foreign engine. Long live the GE-414 INS6
Last edited by NRao on 25 Oct 2022 00:16, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Bhai I am seeing the same picture....fanne wrote:Am I the one reading this strategic direction wrong?
It started like this
1) GE reluctant to give us engine tech
2) India wooing safran hard, and safran playing coy (not full ToT but some)
Then
3) RR offering full ToT, give us the money
4) GE sees that and offers full ToT (i.e. screwdrivergiri in India, still with great benefits, while RR looks like full ToT)
5) French minister suddenly rushed last week (per reports) and said French is willing to share all Tech
Now
6) GE is making it's engine in India (from I guess parts made in USA)- I believe they were willing to give something close (if not exactly the same deal as of now) with F404 and hence price of lca MK1 was high. We dropped the F404 screwdrived in India and saved a billion dollar and had LCA mk1 prces come down. For F414 - we will have something. But I bet, after we have 'made' 300 engines, and US stop cooperation, we cannot make the 301st engine. Still it is better than being fully dependent. I think we should be able to fully service these engines, even after US stops cooperation.
7) RR is still giving full ToT - The devil will be in the details. If we make 300 engines with them, it looks like we can make the 301st on our own, even if Uk stops cooperation
8] Where does that leave Safran? That was the front runner? Is excessive greed sometimes bad?
All said and done we will need some 3000-5000 engines (counting 3 times replacement) in next 2-3 decade. At 10 million each we are looking at $30-$50 billion market. It is for the above mentioned companies to loose.
You have put it in better words... But I believe that there is place for only one.... Either Safran or RR... Whoever it is, they have to make Ganga work or else GE will take the cake.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I have a feeling that our Kaveri is not doing bad...and that could be the inside reason for these companies dropping their objection. Per news Kaveri was dead, now it ahs gone to Russia for high altitude testing...who knows what news is not out there.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Kaveri was NEVER "bad" - never. She was never as good.fanne wrote:I have a feeling that our Kaveri is not doing bad...and that could be the inside reason for these companies dropping their objection. Per news Kaveri was dead, now it ahs gone to Russia for high altitude testing...who knows what news is not out there.
Kaveri is a GREAT engine that has just not met desired goals.
It is very normal for any engine to follow the growth curve of Kaveri.
What is ABNORMAL is India stopped funding Kaveri!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Typically, at the stage Kaveri is at, the funders would increase funding by exponential amounts. That is why Kaveri is not making progress and never will.
Last edited by NRao on 25 Oct 2022 00:32, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The French will still give us the Rafale, whether we take the bait for developing an AMCA turbofan (< 110kN) or not. The issue lies in does India want to spends tens of billions of dollars over 114 fighter aircraft, with zero value return (other than a glorified factory)?fanne wrote:3) As you say, French offer is dependent on us choosing Rafale. Or Money + French reluctance to share the real 'ToT'. It may see we are getting real tech and decide to share it (and make some money).
Now with GE also having thrown its hat in the ring, will the IAF bite for an Amreeki fighter? From what I have been told, the answer is no. The IAF is wary of an American fighter, because of the political unreliability of the GOTUS.
Fully agree. No contest there.fanne wrote:Funny that we are saying the same thing about RR. I would say, not only in aviation, in any sector, STAY PUT IN INDIA - It is the best palce for next few decades - maybe a century. While US science is busy discovering different types of sexes (apparently it is no longer male or female) and Europe busy replacing newclear energy with wooden stove, and the new emperor enforcing 0 covid policy, maybe you want to stay at the only sane place.
The IAF will not take the Eurofighter Typhoon. That thing is a buggy mess.VishnuS wrote:You have put it in better words... But I believe that there is place for only one.... Either Safran or RR... Whoever it is, they have to make Ganga work or else GE will take the cake.
For GE to take the cake, the IAF will have to drop the insistence of having an indigenous turbofan for the AMCA. There is no indication to date, that plan has changed.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Bhai.... You are mixing engines and fighters...Rakesh wrote:..........
1. True EF is not considered by IAF. Heck even RR didn't say anything about ordering EF when they offered TOT and co-development on Project Ganga.
2. If Safran is chosen as partner for Project Ganga, then rest assured 36 F4s are coming as part of MRCA and before GE's offer, I expected Rafale would fill naval fighter gap as well.
3. If RR gets to be the partner, then French would be in a position to loose follow up order for Rafale or have to sweeten the pie with something else....
But, with GE's offer.... RR and SS have to fight it out about what they could offer us.... Not just that, they have a huge burden to make Project Ganga a huge success, at the end if they can't.... We will simply shut the project and take what GE offers for screwdriver giri....
Now, in all this chaos, we have sent our Kaveri to HAT in Russia. Is this because something has improved? Or just to send a message to RR, GE and Safran?? Who knows....
But the message is clear, we want our own engine, that we can manufacture without any issues.... We will pay for it, but we want autonomy.... Give us your best offer....
If HAT is a success and I bet it will be a huge success.... Cause we have too much to gain with its success.... Russia with its war with Nato funded Ukraine would want them (US from Russia pov and GE from our point) to get rotten part of the better deal.... Albeit at the cost of more oil purchase.... BTW, Our EAM is in Russia to negotiate some cooking oil, crude oil and DAP purchase and some other trade related discussion (NSTC??)
Anyways saar, we have to wait for some more time till we hear the good news about Kaveri HAT....
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
GE is not doing anything other than complying with contractual terms. A bit of context to those who don't remember: there was a contest between F414 and EJ 200 for powering Tejas Mk2. F414 won. Let's look at what people said at that point:fanne wrote:Am I the one reading this strategic direction wrong?
It started like this
1) GE reluctant to give us engine tech
2) India wooing safran hard, and safran playing coy (not full ToT but some)
Then
3) RR offering full ToT, give us the money
4) GE sees that and offers full ToT (i.e. screwdrivergiri in India, still with great benefits, while RR looks like full ToT)
5) French minister suddenly rushed last week (per reports) and said French is willing to share all Tech
Now
6) GE is making it's engine in India (from I guess parts made in USA)- I believe they were willing to give something close (if not exactly the same deal as of now) with F404 and hence price of lca MK1 was high. We dropped the F404 screwdrived in India and saved a billion dollar and had LCA mk1 prces come down. For F414 - we will have something. But I bet, after we have 'made' 300 engines, and US stop cooperation, we cannot make the 301st engine. Still it is better than being fully dependent. I think we should be able to fully service these engines, even after US stops cooperation.
7) RR is still giving full ToT - The devil will be in the details. If we make 300 engines with them, it looks like we can make the 301st on our own, even if Uk stops cooperation
8] Where does that leave Safran? That was the front runner? Is excessive greed sometimes bad?
All said and done we will need some 3000-5000 engines (counting 3 times replacement) in next 2-3 decade. At 10 million each we are looking at $30-$50 billion market. It is for the above mentioned companies to loose.
https://www.flightglobal.com/india-pick ... 47.article
https://www.business-standard.com/artic ... 054_1.html"GE Aviation will supply the initial batch of engines and the rest will be manufactured in India under a transfer of technology arrangement," says GE India chief executive John Flannery in a 1 October statement.
https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... t-aircraftIn 2010, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which manages the Tejas programme, chose GE over Eurojet to supply 99 engines for the Tejas Mark II. Of these, 16 are being delivered fully-built, so that ADA can build prototypes of the Mark II fighter for ground and flight test programmes.
Meanwhile, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will establish a facility to manufacture the remaining 83 engines in Bengaluru. With the Indian Air Force (IAF) and navy likely to order at least 160 Tejas Mark II fighters, the HAL facility could eventually build about 700 engines (assuming a fighter uses 3.5 engines in its service life).
There were a lot of discussions on BRF at that point, primarily on the effect of engine selection on then-MMRCA contest.India’s Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) selected the General Electric F414 turbofan engine to power the second batch of indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA), also known as the Tejas. GE’s bid was lower than that of rival contender Eurojet for supply of the EJ200, the DRDO said. The American company previously supplied 41 F404 engines to power the development and initial production LCA Mk Is. A firm contract for 99 engines will now be negotiated, to include licensed production after an initial batch is delivered from the U.S.