Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Srin, So what engine powers the Tejas Mk1A?
I thought it was the F414. And those 99 engines were to power the 83 and spares.
I thought it was the F414. And those 99 engines were to power the 83 and spares.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
You are right. The Mk1A is powered by the F404-IN version.
I was flummoxed by the same quantity of 99 each being ordered for both Marks 1A and II
And GE will deliver 16 fully built F414 engines and the rest(83) will be assembled.
I was flummoxed by the same quantity of 99 each being ordered for both Marks 1A and II
And GE will deliver 16 fully built F414 engines and the rest(83) will be assembled.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
And just to be sure, will the f414 be assembled with full tot ? What does that even mean?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Another question ka very dry thrust is 49-50 kn and achieved its design goals. It is stable at 73 kn afterburner but short of planned design 8pm 81 kn. All info from Twitter.
If the above is true and if you look at most engines, f404, f414, m88 etc their afterburner is 50% more than their dry thrust (almost all in this range). Is it fair to then say with Kaveri we reached a limit which (50% more of 50 kn takes it to 75) is more practical and 81kn was anyway a moon shot (and bad planning?). It is altogether a different issue that 73/75 kn will not be good enough for lca
If the above is true and if you look at most engines, f404, f414, m88 etc their afterburner is 50% more than their dry thrust (almost all in this range). Is it fair to then say with Kaveri we reached a limit which (50% more of 50 kn takes it to 75) is more practical and 81kn was anyway a moon shot (and bad planning?). It is altogether a different issue that 73/75 kn will not be good enough for lca
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
^^^^^
Bad, actually horrible planning on the part of the People funding Kaveri.
Great planning on the part of the designers of Kaveri.
Fund Kaveri. She will deliver.
Indians fund foreign products, which is why the foreigners deliver.
Bad, actually horrible planning on the part of the People funding Kaveri.
Great planning on the part of the designers of Kaveri.
Fund Kaveri. She will deliver.
Indians fund foreign products, which is why the foreigners deliver.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Any truth to this report?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
+108. A prototype Kaveri which did not meet all specs gave the jitters to foreign engine makers to offer to manufacture their products in India. Continued funding of this program will hopefully make Kaveri achieve its design specs - this will give us a working engine that we can tinker with to power our UCAV's and help us come with multiple variants.NRao wrote:^^^^^
Fund Kaveri. She will deliver.
To provide an analogy - Kaveri looks similar to ASLV which was a naughty boy of ISRO for a long time - but at the same time taught ISRO valuable lessons which were applied to the highly successful PSLV.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
It's always been F404 for the Mk1A. That the F414 powered Tejas Mk2 has become MWF shows that the Tejas Mk1/1A is a perfectly good aircraft (the context is that some 15 years ago, Tejas Mk1 was considered to be overweight which is why the Mk2 came into being).ramana wrote:You are right. The Mk1A is powered by the F404-IN version.
I was flummoxed by the same quantity of 99 each being ordered for both Marks 1A and II
And GE will deliver 16 fully built F414 engines and the rest(83) will be assembled.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
TOT is a marketing term and can mean a range of things. No idea what we're supposedly getting with the F414 local production.fanne wrote:And just to be sure, will the f414 be assembled with full tot ? What does that even mean?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Manufacturing TOT probably means knowledge transfer on how to set up the assembly line, and how to operate each step in the assembly process. Similar to what a lot of Indian private sector companies manufacturing civilian products advertise "Made in India with Foreign Collaboration".srin wrote:TOT is a marketing term and can mean a range of things. No idea what we're supposedly getting with the F414 local production.fanne wrote:And just to be sure, will the f414 be assembled with full tot ? What does that even mean?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
fanne, GE will make the F-414 in India with a partner. It won't come with design technology.
The order is for 99 engines of which 16 will be from GE in the US.
The rest of 83 engines will be assembled in India.
Can't set up an mfg factory for that low number. However, they say you need 3x the number of planes over a lifetime. ie 3*200= 600-99= 500 engines.
So possibly some of the parts will be subcontracted.
Above is reasonable guesswork. But could be wrong as we don't know the drivers.
The ADA is sure that they need a 120KN+ engine to really power Mk2 as it keeps getting heavier with modern weapons systems.
A race cart is turning into a bullock cart and in plain sight with ADA agreeing in all those CDRs.
So there is a competition to get a more powerful engine.
Lets see.
The order is for 99 engines of which 16 will be from GE in the US.
The rest of 83 engines will be assembled in India.
Can't set up an mfg factory for that low number. However, they say you need 3x the number of planes over a lifetime. ie 3*200= 600-99= 500 engines.
So possibly some of the parts will be subcontracted.
Above is reasonable guesswork. But could be wrong as we don't know the drivers.
The ADA is sure that they need a 120KN+ engine to really power Mk2 as it keeps getting heavier with modern weapons systems.
A race cart is turning into a bullock cart and in plain sight with ADA agreeing in all those CDRs.
So there is a competition to get a more powerful engine.
Lets see.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The 83 LCA's are 1/1A, right? Or am I mistaken? IF true, then they should be using the GE-404 engine, not the GE-414.
I **think** the 83 engines for the 1/1A will come from the US, they will not be made in India. Right?
This ToT is for the GE-414 INS6 - meant for the LCA MK2 and beyond.
Right?
I **think** the 83 engines for the 1/1A will come from the US, they will not be made in India. Right?
This ToT is for the GE-414 INS6 - meant for the LCA MK2 and beyond.
Right?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
If we subcontract some part good for us. We will need hot section part manufacturing that I guess will not come with this.
I was being humorous with assembly ToT statement. I mean what will you learn in screwdriver giri, what wrench to use and how many turns to give and how much lube to grease. The point I am driving is that F414 ToT is BS (though preferable than not getting it, depending on the money asked). If I were to break it down, the ToT should read like this -
1. Ability to manufacture all of the engine, preferably from raw material. The litmus test would be tomorrow if the other country stops every trade with us (or sanctions us), we should be able to continue engine making as many as we want.
The add ons for the above is
1a) we get the why along with the how...is this called owning IP?, i.e. not only know we know how to make it, but make changes to it to get many variations, or next generation from it.
1b) IP with tinker ability and unhindered right to export
I believe from news, RR is offering some variant of 1, GE is not and Safran is not currently there, but may get there, depending on what RR gives us. I mean if we get all the ToT what good it does to Safran in denying us that and also loosing money.
2. Ability to manufacture some non critical part, ability to assemble, perhaps overhaul capability and all maintenance part made in country. The ALH engine - Shakati with Safran is somewhere there. We make the cold part and they the critical hot part. Safran for M-88 maybe angling for this before RR proposal.
3. Assembly ability with no part/some part manufacturing capability. Should aim for independence in engine consumables, maintenance parts, overhaul. GE 414 falls in this category.
4. Just buy engine (and negotiate overhaul ability), hoard parts for bad days - F-404, is in this category.
We should aim for 1, any country that gives us that. With that tech, we can make replacement for 80 KN f404, 90 KN F414, and futuristic 120KN engine, 140KN replacement (or upgrade) for AF31-F and building block for 6th gen engine.
I was being humorous with assembly ToT statement. I mean what will you learn in screwdriver giri, what wrench to use and how many turns to give and how much lube to grease. The point I am driving is that F414 ToT is BS (though preferable than not getting it, depending on the money asked). If I were to break it down, the ToT should read like this -
1. Ability to manufacture all of the engine, preferably from raw material. The litmus test would be tomorrow if the other country stops every trade with us (or sanctions us), we should be able to continue engine making as many as we want.
The add ons for the above is
1a) we get the why along with the how...is this called owning IP?, i.e. not only know we know how to make it, but make changes to it to get many variations, or next generation from it.
1b) IP with tinker ability and unhindered right to export
I believe from news, RR is offering some variant of 1, GE is not and Safran is not currently there, but may get there, depending on what RR gives us. I mean if we get all the ToT what good it does to Safran in denying us that and also loosing money.
2. Ability to manufacture some non critical part, ability to assemble, perhaps overhaul capability and all maintenance part made in country. The ALH engine - Shakati with Safran is somewhere there. We make the cold part and they the critical hot part. Safran for M-88 maybe angling for this before RR proposal.
3. Assembly ability with no part/some part manufacturing capability. Should aim for independence in engine consumables, maintenance parts, overhaul. GE 414 falls in this category.
4. Just buy engine (and negotiate overhaul ability), hoard parts for bad days - F-404, is in this category.
We should aim for 1, any country that gives us that. With that tech, we can make replacement for 80 KN f404, 90 KN F414, and futuristic 120KN engine, 140KN replacement (or upgrade) for AF31-F and building block for 6th gen engine.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The only way for any engine JV to be politically and financially palatable to the Indian establishment and electorate, is via offsets from a large fighter aircraft deal i.e. MRFA. The issue lies in the scope and scale of the JV and what India aims to get out of it. The more India asks for in the JV, the higher the cost will be. The only way to offset that cost is via a fighter aircraft deal. IMVHO, it is for this reason why the 114 MRFA contest is still continuing. Expect greater clarity on this front, post the MRCBF contest.VishnuS wrote:1. True EF is not considered by IAF. Heck even RR didn't say anything about ordering EF when they offered TOT and co-development on Project Ganga.
From Rolls Royce's perspective, how badly they do want a deal and what can they offer in the absence of a Typhoon contract? Can RR survive in the decades ahead without an infusion of cash? A new turbofan will be required for Tempest - the UK's sixth generation fighter aircraft. They have partnered with Japan in that venture and that is because of financial capital. RR has the technical expertise to go at it alone, but they likely don't have the money to develop it on their own.
Expect a lot more than 36 Rafale F4s, if the negotiations with Safran are successfully concluded. The French MIC is exorbitantly expensive and the French will ask for more than a pound of flesh in any proposed JV with GTRE.VishnuS wrote:2. If Safran is chosen as partner for Project Ganga, then rest assured 36 F4s are coming as part of MRCA and before GE's offer, I expected Rafale would fill naval fighter gap as well.
As I mentioned above, in the absence of a Typhoon contract....how is RR going to convince the GOI that they are a viable partner in a 110kN turbofan program for AMCA? Where is the tangible benefit here for the GOI?VishnuS wrote:3. If RR gets to be the partner, then French would be in a position to loose follow up order for Rafale or have to sweeten the pie with something else....
GE is contractually obligated to provide 99 F414 turbofans. That number will increase, as the goal is to induct 10 Tejas Mk2 squadrons (200 aircraft) + TEDBF (unspecified number) + two squadrons of AMCA (~40 aircraft). That is easily around 300+ F414 turbofans right there. 99 F414 turbofans will not even be enough to cover the first batch of 120 aircraft, as per Air HQ's own induction plans.VishnuS wrote:But, with GE's offer.... RR and SS have to fight it out about what they could offer us.... Not just that, they have a huge burden to make Project Ganga a huge success, at the end if they can't.... We will simply shut the project and take what GE offers for screwdriver giri....
This burden you are referring to is what is/will be negotiated in the contract between Safran and GTRE. But the Indian Air Force does not want to continue with the F414 turbofan beyond the first two AMCA squadrons. So an indigenous turbofan is not a choice, but rather a must have. The F414-INS6 does a maximum of 98 kN. The AMCA requires a turbofan that provides > 110 kN.
The proposed F414-EPE has a planned maximum thrust of 116kN, but that is still under development AFAIK ---> https://www.geaerospace.com/sites/defau ... hanced.pdf
But with the IAF insisting on an indigenous turbofan, what point would F414-EPE serve? The IAF is back at square one with F414-EPE, another foreign turbofan. And the IAF is investing all their eggs in the AMCA program. Their future force structure revolves around AMCA as the backbone. And Air HQ wants that platform to be completely indigenous.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
To date, there have been multiple contracts that India has signed with General Electric to power various variants of the Tejas:-
* Tejas Mk1 + Naval Tejas Mk1 (F404)
* Tejas Mk1A (F404-IN20)
* Tejas Mk2 (F414-INS6)
GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program
https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ ... ft-program
01 Oct 2010
From the above press release from GE, it states that India purchased 17 F404 turbofans in 2004 and then another 24 F404 turbofans in 2007. That comes to 41 F404 turbofans that have been acquired in two batches. Now if we visit the Tejas Mk1 thread, there are two TD airframes plus six PV airframes plus eight LSP airframes. That is 16 airframes in all. No 45 Squadron has 16 IOC airframes and No 18 Squadron has 16 FOC airframes. Then there are also two Naval Tejas Mk1 airframes. That is a total of 50 Tejas airframes that we know of.
Using a one-to-one rule of thumb, India has acquired - at minimum - 50+ F404 turbofans from the early or mid 1990s to date, to power all these airframes. But that number could actually be even higher, as eight twin-seat Mk1 trainers are planned for the pair of Mk1 Squadrons. But these eight airframes could be powered from the batch of 99 F-404 turbofans that were ordered in 2021, as part of the Tejas Mk1A contract.
From the same press release above, India awarded GE a contract for 99 F414-INS6 turbofans in 2010 for the Tejas Mk2. A small batch of F414s will be sent directly from the US, while the rest will be assembled at a facility in India. Additional F414 turbofans will be assembled, as 99 turbofans will not be enough for the 10 Tejas Mk2 squadrons + two AMCA squadrons and the TEDBF squadrons of the Navy.
Contract for the F404-IN20 turbofans - to power the 73 Tejas Mk1As & 10 twin seat Tejas Mk1 trainers - came 11 years after the contract of the 99 F414-INS6 turbofans for the Tejas Mk2. This 2021 contract was also for 99 turbofans. See link below;
GE Aviation wins $716m engine contract for Indian fighter aircraft
https://www.aero-mag.com/ge-aviation-f4 ... e-18972921
19 Aug 2021
* Tejas Mk1 + Naval Tejas Mk1 (F404)
* Tejas Mk1A (F404-IN20)
* Tejas Mk2 (F414-INS6)
GE F414 Engines Selected to Power India Light Combat Aircraft Program
https://www.ge.com/news/press-releases/ ... ft-program
01 Oct 2010
From the above press release from GE, it states that India purchased 17 F404 turbofans in 2004 and then another 24 F404 turbofans in 2007. That comes to 41 F404 turbofans that have been acquired in two batches. Now if we visit the Tejas Mk1 thread, there are two TD airframes plus six PV airframes plus eight LSP airframes. That is 16 airframes in all. No 45 Squadron has 16 IOC airframes and No 18 Squadron has 16 FOC airframes. Then there are also two Naval Tejas Mk1 airframes. That is a total of 50 Tejas airframes that we know of.
Using a one-to-one rule of thumb, India has acquired - at minimum - 50+ F404 turbofans from the early or mid 1990s to date, to power all these airframes. But that number could actually be even higher, as eight twin-seat Mk1 trainers are planned for the pair of Mk1 Squadrons. But these eight airframes could be powered from the batch of 99 F-404 turbofans that were ordered in 2021, as part of the Tejas Mk1A contract.
From the same press release above, India awarded GE a contract for 99 F414-INS6 turbofans in 2010 for the Tejas Mk2. A small batch of F414s will be sent directly from the US, while the rest will be assembled at a facility in India. Additional F414 turbofans will be assembled, as 99 turbofans will not be enough for the 10 Tejas Mk2 squadrons + two AMCA squadrons and the TEDBF squadrons of the Navy.
Contract for the F404-IN20 turbofans - to power the 73 Tejas Mk1As & 10 twin seat Tejas Mk1 trainers - came 11 years after the contract of the 99 F414-INS6 turbofans for the Tejas Mk2. This 2021 contract was also for 99 turbofans. See link below;
GE Aviation wins $716m engine contract for Indian fighter aircraft
https://www.aero-mag.com/ge-aviation-f4 ... e-18972921
19 Aug 2021
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Dr Madhusdhana Rao, program director of tejas mk2, in a recent interview by ddr at defence expo talked about plans/hopes to produce ge 414 in india
https://youtu.be/VBnqUfnVWOg
I don't set great deal of store by a 12 year old, mostly unexecuted contract - i figure terms would have changed since. Plans definitely did. Would prefer to wait for newer confirmation
https://youtu.be/VBnqUfnVWOg
I don't set great deal of store by a 12 year old, mostly unexecuted contract - i figure terms would have changed since. Plans definitely did. Would prefer to wait for newer confirmation
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
There was a def expo in Chennai few months back, where there was a GTRE stall. On enquiring, they did confirm that all the problems were resolved including afterburner issues and we are waiting for the flight test. Hopefully the testing goes better than expected.
Maitya ji has explained a lot of details on how GTRE went with a less efficient design, with more stages, and thus adding more weight etc in the gyan thread. Do we have the materials to go for a more efficient and/or lighter design today?
what exactly is the hot core technology?
Maitya ji has explained a lot of details on how GTRE went with a less efficient design, with more stages, and thus adding more weight etc in the gyan thread. Do we have the materials to go for a more efficient and/or lighter design today?
what exactly is the hot core technology?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Non after burner system. The one that normally operates…
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Once these flight tests are done and if the engine performs well and its safety is assured, we should manufacture a 2 or 3 and proceed to integrate it with suitable PV airframes and do some test flights.
There will be a huge amount of valuable learning in such a project, and we will develop processes, procedures, test scenarios, collect lot of data. Something with no TOT or JV can provide.
A necessary step for having AMCA fly with Indian engine some day.
There will be a huge amount of valuable learning in such a project, and we will develop processes, procedures, test scenarios, collect lot of data. Something with no TOT or JV can provide.
A necessary step for having AMCA fly with Indian engine some day.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
There was news that the 99 F414 engine order contract was modified to deliver F404 instead, not sure partly or fully.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3351&start=5760#p2568363ragupta wrote:There was news that the 99 F414 engine order contract was modified to deliver F404 instead, not sure partly or fully.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
https://twitter.com/defencealerts/statu ... 8fSNyTYp4g ---> General Electric has submitted a proposal for co-development of an engine with India for AMCA Mk2. It will use technologies developed for 116 kN F414-GE-400 as baseline, with transfer of core engine technology. - GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Hmmmmmm........... A Super Hornet engine as a baseline. Interesting.Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/defencealerts/statu ... 8fSNyTYp4g ---> General Electric has submitted a proposal for co-development of an engine with India for AMCA Mk2. It will use technologies developed for 116 kN F414-GE-400 as baseline, with transfer of core engine technology. - GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
what is stopping us from using this new F414-GE-400 116kn engine in LCA Mk2 - no contracts have been signed for that yet and this new engine seems plug-n-play replacement for F414-GE-INS6
the tweet is confusing - there seems to be no engine called F414-GE-400 with 116kn thrust and the 116kn one is called F414 Enhanced Engine
the tweet is confusing - there seems to be no engine called F414-GE-400 with 116kn thrust and the 116kn one is called F414 Enhanced Engine
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Second Thoughts
https://www.businessworld.in/article/Se ... 22-452691/
03 November 2022
https://www.businessworld.in/article/Se ... 22-452691/
03 November 2022
The US has come back with its 2019 offer to jointly develop the AMCA jet engine with India shedding ‘export control’ concerns.
The turnaround by the US now is total and coincides with two ongoing Indian fighter jet procurements from the global market and a take-off stage in indigenous development and production of potentially hundreds of fighter jets over the next two decades.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
US must have learnt of some progress with respect to Kaveri, initially Patriots were denied but when Akash cleared critical hurdles, multiple offers for Patriot were there.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
OT...but they did not stop with Patriot, NASM, THAAD or whatever you name is still on offerAditya_V wrote:US must have learnt of some progress with respect to Kaveri, initially Patriots were denied but when Akash cleared critical hurdles, multiple offers for Patriot were there.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
NRao wrote:Hmmmmmm........... A Super Hornet engine as a baseline. Interesting.Rakesh wrote: https://twitter.com/defencealerts/statu ... 8fSNyTYp4g ---> General Electric has submitted a proposal for co-development of an engine with India for AMCA Mk2. It will use technologies developed for 116 kN F414-GE-400 as baseline, with transfer of core engine technology. - GE Aviation’s vice-president for Asia-Pacific.
Details of the TOT offer by GE for "Co development" of Engine:Bharadwaj wrote:Second Thoughts
https://www.businessworld.in/article/Se ... 22-452691/
03 November 2022
-Essential components of the core engine will come directly from GE
-HAL will be given TOT for Compressor Disk and Case, Compressor spool, hub seals and after burner section
-GE will supply engines in semi assembled kits while HAL will assemble the engine with locally built components and conduct final assembly, testing and will be in charge of maintenance, repair operations and certification of the engines.
-
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Nope.Vips wrote:Details of the TOT offer by GE for "Co development" of Engine:
-Essential components of the core engine will come directly from GE
-HAL will be given TOT for Compressor Disk and Case, Compressor spool, hub seals and after burner section
-GE will supply engines in semi assembled kits while HAL will assemble the engine with locally built components and conduct final assembly, testing and will be in charge of maintenance, repair operations and certification of the engines.
That video is talking about the GE F414 INS6, with a 98kn thrust.
The proposal on the table is for:
* "co-development of a 110 kN thrust engine", and
* everything the GoI asked during the DTTI negotiations. Which was a boatload (for its time)
On using this 110kn engine for the LCA MK2 - it would not come in time.Second Thoughts wrote: All technologies previously asked for by the government of India will be offered,” Kim announced. India had earlier sought the core engine or hot section technology for jet engines under the India-US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) but was turned down.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
The engine that India is asking for does not exist today. We are again back to the untested platform with an untested engine problem. Again LCA Mk2 could be delinked from this effort, and only later batches of AMCA and TEDBF might feature the new engine. Our ability to complicate matters is legendary.
Safran was supposed to help certify Kaveri as part of the 36 Rafale deal, where exactly is that today?
Safran was supposed to help certify Kaveri as part of the 36 Rafale deal, where exactly is that today?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Also there is one more thing!! US is losing its monopoly on the western weapons market.Aditya_V wrote:US must have learnt of some progress with respect to Kaveri, initially Patriots were denied but when Akash cleared critical hurdles, multiple offers for Patriot were there.
Poland and SK weapons deal is billions($5b and would go upto $15b in next few years).
US wants to make quick buck on F414 before they loose out to Safran and RR.
The threat of Project Ganga still exists as replacement for F414 in next two decades, but they can offer F414 EPE or something else at that time....
All things considered..... our upcoming aircraft will not suffer the same fate as Marut!!
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Can someone please make a detailed comparison between the AL 31 engine manufacture by HAL "under tot" and these "tot manufacturing " offers from GE and Safran. Don't think RR has made any offers. The comparison should be with hot and cold sections as well as parts manufacture. Have the Russians transferred any materials tech ?
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
Are the Chinese and Itanians offering any thect?
We should have a separate partnership for each section of the engine. We will then put Made in India sticker
We should have a separate partnership for each section of the engine. We will then put Made in India sticker
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
What a joke this "ToT offers" has become - even by the Screwdriver-giri standards:Vips wrote: ...<snip>
Details of the TOT offer by GE for "Co development" of Engine:
-Essential components of the core engine will come directly from GE
-HAL will be given TOT for Compressor Disk and Case, Compressor spool, hub seals and after burner section
-GE will supply engines in semi assembled kits while HAL will assemble the engine with locally built components and conduct final assembly, testing and will be in charge of maintenance, repair operations and certification of the engines.
...<snip>
1) One can understand withholding the HPT Blades, Disc and Vanes mfg technology - as quite a bit of cutting-edge tech, most of which have been indigenously developed (but not certified, so not much of value per se) via the Kaveri program though, IPR etc needs guarding - understandable.
Ok, even the LPT Blade/Disks is a stretch, but still digestible - after all, can't expect anything more from the negotiating team comprising of medieval-history-dhari baboons.
2) But why not HPC blades, and why not the combustor - all well developed indigenously (and also in other ToTs)
Note: Last stage(s) of HPC blades will require SC casting etc
3) And, this takes the cake of course, why not the Fan itself - what's so great deal about the Fan
(until and unless, these are Carbon-Fiber Fans, maybe with titanium infusion at the edges etc etc)
Boy, this is what happens, when you ensure you stifle indigenous programs by cutting off funding etc ... today, had a test-flying Kaveri been in place, 2 and 3 would have been there in the these "ToT offerings" by default.
Zero/Zilch/Nada is ever going to come out of such "hand-me-down ToT programs" wrt any indigenous turbofan design-and-development initiatives.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
What GE seems to be offering is developing the F414-EPE engine and manufacturing the same in India. GE itself would manufacture the engines in India, with an Indian partner. Some of the crore critical parts would come from the US. The rest would be manufactured in India itself.
I think there will be clearance for export of the engines as well. Don't know if the core critical technologies would be offered to India or not. This would give us the right engine for the TEDBF, AMCA-MK1 and also the chance to upgrade the engines on the Tejas MK2. The GE F414-EPE has been designed by GE since a long time and they are only waiting for someone to fund the development. Mostly this will also be used for F/A-18 Block-III, whenever engine replacement becomes necessary or if IN purchases the F/A-18, then the existing engines might also be upgraded to the EPE standard at a later date.
The engine for the AMCA MK-2 would then have to be developed based on this and I am not sure, we will get all the knowhow to be able to do that ourselves. Technologies like thrust vectoring and lowering the thermal signature of the engine will be part of the F-414 EPE.
However, the advantage would be that this would in all probability be the cheapest option as compared to what RR and Safran can offer. GE will own part of the manufacturing company and hence, will make money from the whole operations as well.
This deal can most probably happen, even if we do not go with any US fighters as part of the MRFA program. However, mostly the F/A-18 might become a fait accompli for the IN.
I think there will be clearance for export of the engines as well. Don't know if the core critical technologies would be offered to India or not. This would give us the right engine for the TEDBF, AMCA-MK1 and also the chance to upgrade the engines on the Tejas MK2. The GE F414-EPE has been designed by GE since a long time and they are only waiting for someone to fund the development. Mostly this will also be used for F/A-18 Block-III, whenever engine replacement becomes necessary or if IN purchases the F/A-18, then the existing engines might also be upgraded to the EPE standard at a later date.
The engine for the AMCA MK-2 would then have to be developed based on this and I am not sure, we will get all the knowhow to be able to do that ourselves. Technologies like thrust vectoring and lowering the thermal signature of the engine will be part of the F-414 EPE.
However, the advantage would be that this would in all probability be the cheapest option as compared to what RR and Safran can offer. GE will own part of the manufacturing company and hence, will make money from the whole operations as well.
This deal can most probably happen, even if we do not go with any US fighters as part of the MRFA program. However, mostly the F/A-18 might become a fait accompli for the IN.
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
So just to make it simple , despite all the hullabaloo the actual Tot whatever it is. , is to a much lesser extent than the AL31 turbofan !!.. western advertising is priceless
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
I expected a lot more.... TBH, I thought we will build everything except the core. I was dreaming GE manufacturing techniques will also help improve Kaveri...
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
@maitya,
The Vips post is the wrong baseline to start from. GE/US is not offering what Vips posted.
However, I agree 1000**2% that IF India had funded the Kaveri India would have been way ahead of where she is - that funding is the issue and nothing else. BTW, India spent a cool $1 billion a MONTH to keep troops along the LAC for about 24 months and is still spending perhaps half that for the same purpose (because India relied on the MEA to "negotiate" - diff thread). Funds are there, but ONLY when the pressure is exerted by an external entity.
@mody,
So, what is the US offering?
She is offering what India wanted in the DTTI negotiations: which is the co-development of an engine - with the GE F414-400 (98kn) as the baseline.
Per wiki (not my fav source for anything):
India wanted to participate in this "enhancement" - be part of the development team to see what it takes to develop a 98kn engine to 117kn.
So, what the US/GE are offering is to take the -400 engine, with 98kn, as the baseline and "co-develop" an engine to 110kn (not 117kn that the current EPE has) for the AMCA - which is what India wanted in the negotiations under DTTI. India was then and even now seeking a 110kn engine - and that is what ALL these yahoo companies are offering.
This GE offer IMHO is a bad deal. (So are the others too - TBH)
BTW, the GE F414 INS6 was developed specifically for India.
A decent deal would be to take the EPE (@117 kn) and co-develop a 120+kn engine (say 135kn).
________________________________
WRT Safran and RR - hey, IF Indian funds do not come those two companies could sink into oblivion. India revived Sukhoi and IMO even Dassault with purchases of their aircraft - so, I think they will part with some techs that GE will never. But, GE has the newer techs that neither RR nor Safran have.
GE gets more than adequately funded, so she this is not about funds for GE, it is more about US trying to control Indian techs
The Vips post is the wrong baseline to start from. GE/US is not offering what Vips posted.
However, I agree 1000**2% that IF India had funded the Kaveri India would have been way ahead of where she is - that funding is the issue and nothing else. BTW, India spent a cool $1 billion a MONTH to keep troops along the LAC for about 24 months and is still spending perhaps half that for the same purpose (because India relied on the MEA to "negotiate" - diff thread). Funds are there, but ONLY when the pressure is exerted by an external entity.
@mody,
So, what is the US offering?
She is offering what India wanted in the DTTI negotiations: which is the co-development of an engine - with the GE F414-400 (98kn) as the baseline.
Per wiki (not my fav source for anything):
So, there was a GE F-414 called -400 with 98kn and it was enhanced to 117kn and called "EPE".General Electric's enhanced performance engine (EPE), increasing the F414-GE-400's power output from 22,000 to 26,400 lbf (98 to 117 kN) of thrust per engine, was suggested as a mitigating measure
India wanted to participate in this "enhancement" - be part of the development team to see what it takes to develop a 98kn engine to 117kn.
So, what the US/GE are offering is to take the -400 engine, with 98kn, as the baseline and "co-develop" an engine to 110kn (not 117kn that the current EPE has) for the AMCA - which is what India wanted in the negotiations under DTTI. India was then and even now seeking a 110kn engine - and that is what ALL these yahoo companies are offering.
This GE offer IMHO is a bad deal. (So are the others too - TBH)
BTW, the GE F414 INS6 was developed specifically for India.
A decent deal would be to take the EPE (@117 kn) and co-develop a 120+kn engine (say 135kn).
________________________________
WRT Safran and RR - hey, IF Indian funds do not come those two companies could sink into oblivion. India revived Sukhoi and IMO even Dassault with purchases of their aircraft - so, I think they will part with some techs that GE will never. But, GE has the newer techs that neither RR nor Safran have.
GE gets more than adequately funded, so she this is not about funds for GE, it is more about US trying to control Indian techs
Re: Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion
IHMO, out of RR or Safran, the latter is the better choice. We are already invested in Rafale, will possible reorder the same under MRCA. We have the LEAP engines (GE+Safran) using latest CMC components, parts of which will be manufactured here by Tata. France is a bit more independent than UK in terms of compliance to future US sanctions and they have been bit bad by AUKUS.
Whichever way we look at this, it is going to cost a lot of money. More if we go with both GE offer and develop a new engine with Safran. But it is only the level of tech transfer and strategic autonomy that will decide the winner. GE loses on both counts.
Whichever way we look at this, it is going to cost a lot of money. More if we go with both GE offer and develop a new engine with Safran. But it is only the level of tech transfer and strategic autonomy that will decide the winner. GE loses on both counts.