Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 18 Dec 2022 13:03

There is a lot of upward & downward technology upgrades that has gone on between Agni-V and Agni-P. A lot of the composites, guidance tech went from Agni-V into Agni-P. Once the 2-stage all-composite tech was proven alongwith MaRV in Agni-P, the same has been ported over to Agni-V to make it all-composite 3 stages

At a 1.5 tonne payload, its quite clear that Agni-V can carry multiple warheads to 8000 Km and more. If needed, a unitary warhead can help it reach 10,000 Km easily

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 18 Dec 2022 23:52

One more video

https://youtu.be/jD4ZQ4zgRp0

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2022 01:44

One more
https://www.theweek.in/news/india/2022/ ... hicle.html

What also makes the Agni-5 test doubtful is the low velocity of the projectile as seen in the camera-shot images, but would be valid for a hypersonic glide vehicle test.

The nuclear-capable Agni-5 with a range of about 5,000-7,000 km would have brought within India’s striking range the whole of China, including some parts of Europe...

While the speed of the Agni-5 is supersonic or purportedly between 2-3 Mach (2-3 times the speed of sound), hypersonic missiles are those with a speed of 5-24 Mach.

Obviously, he doesn't know what velocity is needed to attain 5400 km. Should check with the source familiar with the test.

sanjaykumar · Post by **sanjaykumar** » 19 Dec 2022 03:19

https://eurasiantimes.com/agni-5-did-in ... icate/?amp

Apparently path was non linear.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 19 Dec 2022 08:16

Sanjay, Long ago India Today had a special anniversary issue of various achievements.
One picture was that of Kalam and on the whiteboard, he had an aeroballistic trajectory* of the RV for Agni.

Arun_S has that picture and most likely will comment after he reads this.
BTW every Agni II onwards had Boost Guide RVs with fins on the RV.
It was only with A5 that RVs in the ballistic mode was tested.
Most like this RV had a High Altitude engine that allowed the trajectory.
Maybe they mastered the BGRV without fins and executed the test trajectory.

* In words it had a parabola and after reaching the apogee it travels downwards and levels off at ~3/4 of the parabola height.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 19 Dec 2022 11:05

Waiting for some gold nuggets form Mr Arun Vishwakarma

mody · Post by **mody** » 19 Dec 2022 16:14

SSridhar wrote:A-3 weight reduction was over 50%.

The Chinese always claimed that A-5 was 8000 Kms. They will now say that it is >10K Kms now. Han muh mein ghee shakar.

The weight reduction was for Agni-III to Agni-IV. The original Agni-III remains the same.
The Agni-IV, previously called Agni-2Prime was perhaps supposed to be a tech demonstrator only, but was later renamed as Agni-IV and inducted.
This is what Tessy Thomas had alluded to. The Agni-III that are currently in service, remain as per their original avatar only.

One can almost say that the transformation from Agni-2 to Agni-IV is the same as from Agni-III to Agni-V. The range has more then doubled in both cases, along with a host of new technologies being incorporated. It started with Agni-IV being all composite. It was then used to develop the Agni-Prime as an all composite missile, which would replace the Agni-I and possibly Agni-2 and now the Agni-V has gone the all composite route.

Missiles from other countries with comparable weight and size have a range of around 10,000 Kms.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 19 Dec 2022 22:19

Awaiting the K5 launch next. Some secret launches with shorter ranges might have already happened without our knowledge.

Btw, is K4 inducted - after the 2020 final tests, no news about it

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 20 Dec 2022 09:33

Yes. Hence no news.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2022 14:00

Prem Kumar wrote:Some secret launches with shorter ranges might have already happened without our knowledge.

The January 2020 launch of a K-4 from a submerged pontoon is regarded as a K-6 test.

It is also my belief that MIRV has been quietly implemented in A-5 & K-6.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Dec 2022 14:04

Ramana: I know we understate ranges, don't reveal tests etc, which is all perfectly understandable - strategic ambiguity is used brilliantly by us. We are charting our own course here.

But K4 induction should have made the news, IMHO. At least a terse statement. After all, a N-sub with a K4 ranged missile is there purely for deterrence - announcing it is what establishes deterrence (notwithstanding the maxim that "those who ought to know, know")

SSridhar: what is K6? I know a K5 was in the works. Yes, I also think Agni-V is MIRV'ed and so is Agni-P

ashthor · Post by **ashthor** » 20 Dec 2022 15:27

Indian forces acquiring 'Pralay' ballistic missile for striking targets at 150-500 Km

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 368229.cms

Pralay is a quasi-ballistic surface-to-surface missile. The advanced missile has been developed in a way to able to defeat interceptor missiles. It has the ability to change its path after covering a certain range midair," sources said.
Sources said that such missiles give a tremendous capability to own troops to completely destroy or take out enemy air defence sites or similar high-value targets.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 20 Dec 2022 15:36

ashthor wrote:Indian forces acquiring 'Pralay' ballistic missile for striking targets at 150-500 Km

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 368229.cms

Pralay is a quasi-ballistic surface-to-surface missile. The advanced missile has been developed in a way to able to defeat interceptor missiles. It has the ability to change its path after covering a certain range midair," sources said.
Sources said that such missiles give a tremendous capability to own troops to completely destroy or take out enemy air defence sites or similar high-value targets.

So i guess Prithvi goes to the museum.

Can it be "misfired" in say western or northern or eastern direction ? Later we can always apologise.

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 20 Dec 2022 15:37

ashthor wrote:Indian forces acquiring 'Pralay' ballistic missile for striking targets at 150-500 Km

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 368229.cms

Pralay is a quasi-ballistic surface-to-surface missile. The advanced missile has been developed in a way to able to defeat interceptor missiles. It has the ability to change its path after covering a certain range midair," sources said.
Sources said that such missiles give a tremendous capability to own troops to completely destroy or take out enemy air defence sites or similar high-value targets.

Can it be fired from a ship like Dhanush ?

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Dec 2022 15:40

Gen Rawat's Rocket Force is seeing the light of day. Long time coming (1st test of Shaurya was in 2008, of Prahaar in 2010 and neither were inducted).

A huge doctrinal blindness is finally being overcome! Hope its inducted in large numbers. And other missiles like Prahaar, Shaurya etc also follow suit. All under the Armed Forces command, rather than SFC

Prahaar will fill the gap between 40/80 Km Pinaka/Smerch and the Pralay. Its available in a 6-pack, road mobile configuration, ready to fire in minutes. Shaurya is for longer ranges than Pralay - 750 - 2000 Kms, for serious long-range punch of the MRBM class (conventional)

These are highly cost-effective, conventional deterrences - at less than 5 Cr per missile, you can induct a 1000 Pralays for less than $1 Billion. Each missile is a fraction of the cost of Brahmos, is highly accurate and will make any PLA General pee his pants before he contemplates a 1st strike with conventional BMs

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 20 Dec 2022 17:58

Prem Kumar wrote:Gen Rawat's Rocket Force is seeing the light of day. Long time coming (1st test of Shaurya was in 2008, of Prahaar in 2010 and neither were inducted).

A huge doctrinal blindness is finally being overcome! Hope its inducted in large numbers. And other missiles like Prahaar, Shaurya etc also follow suit. All under the Armed Forces command, rather than SFC

Prahaar will fill the gap between 40/80 Km Pinaka/Smerch and the Pralay. Its available in a 6-pack, road mobile configuration, ready to fire in minutes. Shaurya is for longer ranges than Pralay - 750 - 2000 Kms, for serious long-range punch of the MRBM class (conventional)

These are highly cost-effective, conventional deterrences - at less than 5 Cr per missile, you can induct a 1000 Pralays for less than $1 Billion. Each missile is a fraction of the cost of Brahmos, is highly accurate and will make any PLA General pee his pants before he contemplates a 1st strike with conventional BMs

Where do we fit Nirbhay ?

YashG · Post by **YashG** » 20 Dec 2022 18:02

Kersi wrote:
ashthor wrote:Indian forces acquiring 'Pralay' ballistic missile for striking targets at 150-500 Km

Can it be fired from a ship like Dhanush ?

Not as it is. It will need a stabiliser component to be ship fired.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Dec 2022 18:23

The air force should also order some, will help in disabling enemy airfields also.

mody · Post by **mody** » 20 Dec 2022 18:48

Aditya_V wrote:The air force should also order some, will help in disabling enemy airfields also.

You mean a separate rocket force will not target enemy airforce bases? Why should the airforce be devoting any manpower towards operating ground based ballistic missiles? We have to get out of this kind of silo based thinking of the forces.
A separate rocket force should be responsible for all ground based missiles, with ranges between 150 Kms upto 2,000 Kms and a conventional warhead.
Nuclear tipped missiles to be handled by SFC.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Dec 2022 18:55

If the Army rocket force is integrated with the Airforce aircraft to coordinate strikes it is ok

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Dec 2022 19:09

Kersi: Nirbhay can be fit into the Rocket Force once its ready. That seems some ways off, sadly .......

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 20 Dec 2022 19:13

Is the rocket force going to be an army specific force. Or will it be a joint force with both the Army and the Air force as stake holders.

Do we have any clarity on the subject.

Because in my limited understanding of the different echelons of the battlefield. It makes sense for the army to have shared responsibilities with the IAF upto a depth of 200 to 300 kms. Anything beyond that should be IAF responsibility.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 20 Dec 2022 20:49

This is where I think, the Theatre Commands doctrine of Gen Rawat comes in. The Rocket Force could be one of the first real-life implementations of the doctrine. Beyond standard artillery/MRLS ranges, the command/decision should pass to the Rocket Force, while the assets would be operated by the IA or the IAF, as the case may be

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2022 21:05

Prem Kumar wrote:SSridhar: what is K6? I know a K5 was in the works. Yes, I also think Agni-V is MIRV'ed and so is Agni-P

Prem, K Family of Missiles

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2022 21:09

Prem Kumar wrote:But K4 induction should have made the news, IMHO. At least a terse statement. After all, a N-sub with a K4 ranged missile is there purely for deterrence - announcing it is what establishes deterrence (notwithstanding the maxim that "those who ought to know, know")

No official announcement, but inferences. On January 24, 2020, DRDO announced “last developmental trial of nuclear capable #submarine launched ballistic missile #K4 from an underwater platform off Vizag coast. The #missile successfully fired for a reduced range paving the way for its series production.” The reference to “platform” meant it was fired from INS Arihant. 'paving the way for series production' meant induction.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2022 21:18

mody wrote:The weight reduction was for Agni-III to Agni-IV. The original Agni-III remains the same.

mody, thanks for the correction.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 20 Dec 2022 21:23

Aditya_V wrote:The air force should also order some, will help in disabling enemy airfields also.

Aditya_V, the original use cases for Pralay were two, IIRC. One, India must have some means to attack Chinese forces longer distance if the PLARF puts Indian bases out of operation, even if for a few hours. Two, India must be able to similarly put Chinese bases out of service. This is our response to DF-12 SRBM deployment.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 20 Dec 2022 21:55

I was thinking of airfields like Sargodha, Jacobabad, Rafiqui etc. Pralay would be useful in this sector also.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 21 Dec 2022 23:12

My estimate of costs

Guided Pinaka 100km Rs 75 lakhs each

Prahaar 200km Rs 2 cr

Pralay 400-800km Rs 6 cr and with RF seeker Rs 10 cr

Shaurya 1200-1500km Rs 10cr/15 cr (conventional warhead)

K4/Agni 3 Rs 20cr/25cr Range 3000-4000km-6000km

Brahmos with seeker 400-800km Rs 40 cr

The idea is to demonstrate that we can hit any part of China with conventional weapons at a cost lower than Brahmos

Not to forget Suicide versions of Panchi or Archer UAV, would have range of 1000 to 6000km at cost of Rs 5 to 15 cr each

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 22 Dec 2022 00:48

SS, I think a few members are demanding services objectives in their quest for information.
No need to give a rationale.

Prem Kumar asks more than required.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 25 Dec 2022 20:02

In a major decision, India has approved the acquisition & deployment of Pralay tactical ballistic missiles for the armed forces. Around 120 missiles cleared in first procurement by the Defence Ministry.

https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 225184047/

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 25 Dec 2022 20:34

^^^ Hope the news is true not many organizations (print of Youtube) are covering this news, hope they are running late on a holiday

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 25 Dec 2022 21:17

ANI has govt sources and is unlikely to be false.

bala · Post by **bala** » 25 Dec 2022 21:52

Now TOI is reporting the same news:

India clears Pralay tactical ballistic missiles for armed forces, to be deployed along China border

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 498776.cms
Dec 25, 2022

Defence ministry has cleared a proposal to procure around 120 Pralay ballistic missiles for the armed forces, which will deploy them along the borders with China and Pakistan, according to an report citing defence sources. The acquisition of these ballistic missiles is being seen as a big development for the country which now has a policy that allows the use of ballistic missiles in tactical roles. Both China and Pakistan have ballistic missiles which are for tactical roles.

The surface-to-surface tactical missile, with a strike range of 150 km. Pralay fills the gap of a conventionally armed ballistic missile that is not hampered by "No First Use" nuclear policy.

'Pralay' is a quasi-ballistic surface-to-surface missile that can hit targets 150-500 kms away. Sources said the missile's range can be extended significantly if the need arises. The missile can carry 350-700 kg high grade explosive, Penetration-Cum-Blast explosive and runway denial penetration submunition. It is designed to target radar and communication installations, command and control centers and advance airfields using conventional warhead. The system is road mobile. The advanced missile has been developed to defeat interceptor missiles as it has the ability to change its path midair.

Defence Research and Development Organisation began development of the missile in 2015. The missile was successfully tested twice on consecutive days last year on December 21 and December 22. It is powered by a solid propellant rocket motor. The composite propellant is highly efficient and generates more energy compared to the propellant used in Agni missile series. The missile guidance system includes state-of-the-art navigation and integrated avionics. Similar foreign missiles of the same class include China's Dongfeng 12 (CSS-X-15), Russia's 9K720 Iskander and South Korea's Hyunmoo 2 missile.

Defence watchers say such a missile system can be used for taking out long-range enemy air defence systems and also other high-value installations and weaponry. The proposal to induct these missiles has been cleared at a time when the defence forces are working towards creating a dedicated rocket force which can take out enemy targets from long range. The Chinese military already has a dedicated rocket force.

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 25 Dec 2022 23:31

It’s not an order, still at DAC stage where it can languish for decades

mody · Post by **mody** » 26 Dec 2022 16:16

How many Pralay missiles can be carried on a 8X8 TEL? 3 or upto 4 per 8X8 TEL would be nice.

mody · Post by **mody** » 26 Dec 2022 16:43

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/other/wh ... 1247f72317

An article on Helina in TOI. Can anyone confirm the following information given in the piece. 50-60 seconds to acquire a target seems to high.

"Developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), the HELINA is designed to be fired from helicopters and aircraft to destroy enemy tanks. This anti-tank guided missile (ATGM) has recently undergone trials and four of the five trials have been successful. Now, it has to be "integrated" into helicopters and Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) and Bharat Dynamics (BDL) are at work on it. The "integration" should be complete by 2025 is the assessment."

"With work already in progress for arming helicopters with the HELINA, there is also an effort to reduce the "human-machine interface" time. Simply put, the missile has to be fired as quickly as possible so that the enemy does not have the time to react. Currently, the 'acquisition" is taking 50-60 seconds, but it is being brought down to 30 seconds. This will allow the helicopter a better opportunity to destroy enemy tanks on the ground."

durairaaj · Post by **durairaaj** » 26 Dec 2022 22:42

As it is a norm in Indian newspapers reporting of indigenous items in which the worst possible metric as the average achieved capability, the report did not tell at what conditions the 50 seconds is required. It could most probably be at the peak summer temperature when the metal's temperature is not much different from the sand temperature any IIR sensor may take more time to distinguish the tank from its surroundings. These reports would also not mention if foreign missiles have not worked under such conditions. Last few days there are so many hit pieces on DRDO, starting from CAG report. I guess we should add this to the list . We don't know how many more yet to come out.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 27 Dec 2022 00:47

The no import list is beginning to bite. That's the only explaination.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Dec 2022 01:02

Close to 100 Rudra gunships and now a token number of LCH are flying w/o an ATGM because HELINA has been under development for long. If shit hits the fan with China, India's most numerous gunships will be w/o an ATGM against an enemy which deploys mechanized assets on a liberal scale against India.

So, when you go around beating your chest about domestic product, do look into these trivial matters of operational necessity.

This domestic versus import discussion has been reduced to a zero sum game on this forum w/o looking into operational scenarios. Thank god the GOI has been more respective of such issues.