HLFT-42 Lead-In Fighter Trainer: News & Discussions: 02 August 2022

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2022 12:38

HLFT-42 Lead-In Fighter Trainer

Starting this thread as a repository of information about HAL's HLFT-42 project. The aircraft is designed to meet the training gap between the BAe Hawk Mk.132 Advanced Jet Trainer and the high performance aircraft in main line squadron service. The details are provided in the new initiative section of the annual report on Page 5. See link below.

Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) info on the HLFT-42 ---> https://hal-india.co.in/Common/Uploads/ ... t_2022.pdf

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Design Specifications
• Length: 13.2 meters
• Height: 4.4 meters
• Wingspan: 8.2 meters
• Wing Area: 38.4 square meters
• Engine: General Electric F414-IN20 turbofan (Info Sheet --> https://www.geaviation.com/propulsion/military/f404)

Performance Specifications
• Maximum All Up Weight: 16,500 kg
• Internal Fuel Capacity: 3,500 kg
• Payload: > 4,500 kg
• Hardpoints: 11
• Service Ceiling: Not Known
• G Limits: Not Known
• Speed: Not Known
• Range: Not Known

Avionics
• Radar: Not Known

Armament
• Guns: TBD
• Air-to-Air Missiles: TBD
• Air-to-Surface Missiles: TBD
• Un-Guided/Gravity Bombs: TBD

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Multimedia - Photos & Video

Image Source: https://twitter.com/DDRNewDelhi/status/ ... 36225?s=20

A brief program description of the program, along with some speculation about what it could be.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Aug 2022 18:04

Pratyush, when starting threads like the newly announced HLFT-42 program, please follow the above routine. I have edited your post above.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Aug 2022 18:25

While HLFT-42 will not be an exact replica of the Tejas SPORT, I still put those youtube videos in there as it is best suited in this thread. Much of HLFT-42 will take inputs (especially the cockpit) from the Tejas SPORT concept that was introduced at Aero India 2019.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 02 Aug 2022 21:10

Serious pooch. How does it differ from Tejas trainer? I saw the video with better cockpit. Is there something more?

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 02 Aug 2022 21:38

Anujan wrote:Serious pooch. How does it differ from Tejas trainer? I saw the video with better cockpit. Is there something more?

Apart from that little blurb in the HAL Annual Report, nothing else has been publicly revealed.

My (uneducated) guess would be a Tejas trainer with the cockpit of a Tejas SPORT. HAL first pitched this aircraft at the 2019 Aero India exposition. So expect newer and refined design inputs.

I am more interested in the numbers than anything else at this stage. The greater the production run of multiple Tejas variants (Mk1, Mk1A, HLFT-42, Mk2, etc) the better for our MIC and the Indian aviation industry. I am assuming a production run of anywhere between 60 - 90 aircraft.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 02 Aug 2022 21:40

Speculation on my part as I don't honestly know anything more about this project. It could simply be a Tejas trainer. But aTejas as a trainer aircraft still very expensive to maintain and operate. When compared to Hawk.

However, if HAL builds a clean sheet trainer powered by an afterburner version of the HTFE 25, it should have super sonic performance. But will be significantly cheaper to operate as compared to a Tejas trainer in this role.

But as stated it's just speculation at this point in time.

Thakur_B · Post by **Thakur_B** » 02 Aug 2022 22:04

Pratyush wrote:
However, if HAL builds a clean sheet trainer powered by an afterburner version of the HTFE 25, it should have super sonic performance. But will be significantly cheaper to operate as compared to a Tejas trainer in this role.

HJT 39 CAT redux

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Aug 2022 10:34

I am still wondering about the actual use case for this. For decades our pilots were transitioning from the Kiran to 2-seat Mig-21's in MOFTU, a truly colossal jump in performance and difficulty of handling. But we no longer have this problem. The Hawk is a much better trainer for fighter flying and the new fighters our pilots will be graduating to are all FBW equipped with envelope protection and glass cockpits with HOTAS controls making the transition much easier and safer. The more difficult part of the training will be understanding the operation of various systems like Radar, IRST, EW and employment of various weapon systems, but those are different on every fighter and you are much better off learning them during squadron training on the 2 seat version of the fighter you are qualifying on.

Maybe I am wrong but the HLFT seems to be solution looking for a problem to me. All of HAL's production capacity needs to be completely focused on building the Mk1A followed by the Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA and the HTT-40 if the IAF ever orders it. Plus they have their own CATS and other UAV programs (Tapas, Ghatak) which I hope are successful and get inducted into the IAF. HLFT feels like an unnecessary distraction compared to all that.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2022 10:41

Nachiket,

What you are worried about is not a problem of production. It's a problem of design resources and wind tunnels.

Because the Tejas and Tejas trainer are not in need of design resources. They are a supply chain management and orders problem.

The MWF is a design problem but not of HAL.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 03 Aug 2022 10:57

At some point we will start retiring the Hawks- could this be the replacement being planned.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 03 Aug 2022 11:06

Pratyush wrote:Nachiket,

What you are worried about is not a problem of production. It's a problem of design resources and wind tunnels.

Because the Tejas and Tejas trainer are not in need of design resources. They are a supply chain management and orders problem.

The MWF is a design problem but not of HAL.

No I'm not talking about design resources. Even production capacity is limited. HLFT will be made on a Tejas production line. All Tejas production lines need to be churning out fighters as fast as they can to address the IAF's numbers shortage. Unless the IAF specifically requests for something like the HLFT, it should be kept on the backburner. It can happen perhaps. The Tejas Mk2 does not have a 2-seat trainer version. If the IAF determines that the current Tejas trainer is inadequate for pilots transitioning to the Mk2 with its upgraded cockpit, they might ask for something like this.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 03 Aug 2022 11:12

No sure i follow. Because HAL has the Koraput and Nashik lines idle as well.

But all this presupposes that the aircraft will actually fly and will be ordered by the IAF.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 03 Aug 2022 13:51

Aditya_V wrote:At some point we will start retiring the Hawks- could this be the replacement being planned.

Very unlikely. HAL may look to build a HTFE-25 powered twin engine AJT from scratch that will not need to be supersonic or be equipped with radar and other advanced avionics. The cost of operating and maintaining one will likely be cheaper than a full fledged LIFT. The purpose of the AJT being to train young rookies in more advanced syllabus, after they've just finished PC-7 Mk2 and HTT-40 based basic training.

LIFT is intended to train those who graduate from AJT training and need to be trained on more advanced avionics, such as radar, EW, LDP, weapons etc. Would streamline training significantly and provide the operational squadrons with pilots far more well equipped to become operational pilots than is the case today.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 06 Aug 2022 18:34

Malaysia to procure 18 Tejas jets from India; US, Australia, Indonesia show interest

In a written reply to the Lok Sabha, Minister of State for Defence Ajay Bhatt said, "Subsequently in October 2021, HAL responded to request for proposal issued against tender released by the Royal Malaysian Air Force for 18 Fighter Lead In Trainer - Light Combat Aircraft (FLIT-LCA) and offered the LCA Tejas twin seater variant."

Bart S · Post by **Bart S** » 06 Aug 2022 20:52

Fake news/headline from DDM, which their own article debunks. The statement from the minister simply states that HAL had responded to their tender. He never said that Malaysia has in any way agreed to procure it.

KSingh · Post by **KSingh** » 07 Aug 2022 03:01

nachiket wrote:
Pratyush wrote:Nachiket,

What you are worried about is not a problem of production. It's a problem of design resources and wind tunnels.

Because the Tejas and Tejas trainer are not in need of design resources. They are a supply chain management and orders problem.

The MWF is a design problem but not of HAL.
No I'm not talking about design resources. Even production capacity is limited. HLFT will be made on a Tejas production line. All Tejas production lines need to be churning out fighters as fast as they can to address the IAF's numbers shortage. Unless the IAF specifically requests for something like the HLFT, it should be kept on the backburner. It can happen perhaps. The Tejas Mk2 does not have a 2-seat trainer version. If the IAF determines that the current Tejas trainer is inadequate for pilots transitioning to the Mk2 with its upgraded cockpit, they might ask for something like this.

Not sure how many times this needs to be reiterated but production follows ORDERS.

If HAL had 300+ LCA orders they would scale accordingly. They can produce as many as the armed forces can afford/absorb/order. Tumkur can produce 60+ LUH/year under phase 2 but they won’t do so unless they have serious orders (300++) to justify such a capacity.

It isn’t HAL’s responsibility to solve the IAF’s squadron shortage- that is solely the GoI’s and specifically the IAF’s- HAL is just a seller.

On this topic more specifically it might make some sense to go for a clean sheet LIFT proposition given the competitions that HAL is putting the SPORT/LCA trainer into it is going up against purpose built trainers like T-50 and the YAK-130. LCA is too over spec’d and largely unsuitable for these roles as a supersonic delta wing. I’m not convinced of the need for such a platform inside the Indian context though with the AJT present in big numbers and still relatively new. With a revamp of training curriculum and wider adoption of simulators there’s no reason why the IAF’s training regime can’t be BTW-AJT-OCU

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 07 Nov 2022 19:04

https://twitter.com/strategic_front/sta ... mQBbDT3QOw ---> What is Hindustan Lead in Fighter Trainer (HLFT-42) ? A new initiative by HAL.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 08 Nov 2022 02:57

So it replaces BAE Hawk? I don't think IAF has resources for this.
They have a Hawk for jet training and then Tejas Trainer.
Now one can say will replace Hawk but GE F404-INS6 is too powerful an engine.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 08 Nov 2022 03:07

Ramana-ji, IN20 applies to the F404 and INS6 applies to the F414.

Too early in the developmental stage to determine if HLFT-42 will operate a F404/F414 turbofan.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 08 Nov 2022 08:10

As a trainer, it won't really require a bleeding edge high performance engine. A reliable engine that will not offer any surprises to the young pilot will be enough for the aircraft.

In that scenario, it could well be powered by the Kaveri with afterburner. Theoretically, it is supposed to be capable of 73 KN with afterburner. If the you tube reporting is anything to go by.

If the engine does get certified, then it could be a viable choice for this application. In addition to the stealth UCAV.

Prem Kumar · Post by **Prem Kumar** » 08 Nov 2022 11:54

Won't the Tejas-LIFT (without its avionics, weapons etc) be more cost effective because of economies of scale, rather than this new trainer?

The same advantages HAL speaks about (simulating the other aircraft in IAF inventory) were touted as advantages of Tejas-LIFT too. So, what happens to Tejas-LIFT now?

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 08 Nov 2022 16:10

Seems like a dud idea to me. Everything needs to be tested certified once again, the metallic air frame, new avionics, power assisted flight controls, s/w, mfg jigs, maintenance tools and procedures - unless someone has placed a confirmed and sizeable order with some upfront partial payment - where will HAL get the funds to develop this offshoot degraded version? And will IAF spare test pilots for a program they have no interest in?

Also, how will this HLFT "simulate flying characteristics of any fighter aircraft" without FBW controls and an advanced digital cockpit ?

Instead of making a compelling case for the value delivered by a future ready LIFT/SPORT being the right way to train future pilots, HAL is thinking of offering what seems like a 2.5 gen LCA !! Strange...

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 09 Nov 2022 06:55

My guess from all the material refering first hand HAL sources (HVT, Jayadeva) is that it will employ Kaveri / HTFE . Like some posters have have mentioned above, it is not filling any real requirement set by IAF.

Guessing that HAL is now aiming for a fully Indian jet fighter/trainer as a feasible export option that will help it break into the international mkt. Right now, if you're not a client of US, the only full independent option for LIFT / low cost fighters is China. HAL's recent experience with trying to export Tejas to Malaysia, Argentina and others might have given an insight on the potential and challenges of LIFT/Low cost fighters. Being tied to US or other country's ecosystem held HAL back.

There is also the push for defence exports from GoI, with BEL and BDL having a suite of eligible products for export. HAL has to start somewhere with an Indian fighter that can be exported without approval from any other country. Also, there are only a few other projects where Kaveri can be used with minimal changes.

What is also likely is that it will include all the MUMT capabilities that HAL is developing with NSIL giving a very competitive option for countries with small defence budgets

HLFT seems to be serving 3 purposes:
1. Bring Kaveri (or some Indian jet engine) in to full scale production
2. Create an export worthy jet fighter without any external dependencies to capture future low cost fighter /LIFT market
3. Utilize learning from Tejas to make a really affordable and capable light fighter, and maybe keep their expertise in light fighters for a longer time

On this product, HAL might try to be creative and maximize gains for itself, given that there are no SQRs (that we know of) constraining the project. They will bring all their expertise, and base the design on their own product research. They are taking a risk, and are confident on it paying off.
That's why HVT is so excited about it

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/1578815161011699712

All my Khayali Pulao only

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Nov 2022 00:07

HJT-39

Big question is if this will be a delta wing like LCA Tejas LIFT, or the HJT-39, conventional design like the one above.
Other than India, no one else operates a delta wing naval aircraft.

The australian and US requirements will want a conventional design in the end, and not a delta wing, due to difference in aerodynamics, turn rate etc. The LCA is too good as a mere trainer.

The maarkit is needing a trainer trainer, lesser capability, conventional design, conventional materials, cheap aircraft.
But the danger here is that this maarkit is overcrowded with such planes, and everyone - boeing, russia, south korea, italy, china have planes in this exact category

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 12 Nov 2022 04:47

For the Kaveri to be used any where it has to be certified first.

Going by our track record on engines, lets not make khayali pulao’s.

A conceptual aircraft around a not a fully developed engine is a recipe for disaster.

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Feb 2023 16:19

https://www.livefistdefence.com/hal-unv ... c-trainer/

February 10, 2023

HAL Unveils Cleansheet Supersonic Trainer

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Feb 2023 16:53

Will this be followed by some deal on the F414 engines, alteast Force IAF hand in Tejas MK2 nos, with HLFT-42, Tejas Mk2, TEDBF all using the engine.

nash · Post by **nash** » 12 Feb 2023 16:27

Certainly a storm is coming ...!!!

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 5633724416

As a unmanned variant this can be the ORCA of CATS MUM-T system.
This should be cheap and can be produce in number.

srin · Post by **srin** » 12 Feb 2023 16:48

I want to see the IJT completed first before HAL takes up any LIFT project.

Nikhil_Naya · Post by **Nikhil_Naya** » 12 Feb 2023 17:49

This will probably be our JF17 equivalent for Exports. There is a huge market for cheap, low cost medium range aircraft. HAL chief clearly says that it will be an all metal aircraft. Probably Digital FBW with 2 Analog channel Backups. A potential Mig21 for the 2030s. 2 seat trainer and single seat fighter. Only unlike the Bandar, it will have better serviceability, a decent radar and Indian missiles. Being all metal, production rates could be better as well.

arunsrinivasan · Post by **arunsrinivasan** » 12 Feb 2023 18:52

Pratyush wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/hal-unv ... c-trainer/

February 10, 2023

HAL Unveils Cleansheet Supersonic Trainer

This article says the engine is likely to be 404. I guess it would be cheaper, but by how much?

ernest · Post by **ernest** » 12 Feb 2023 22:05

nash wrote:Certainly a storm is coming ...!!!

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 5633724416

As a unmanned variant this can be the ORCA of CATS MUM-T system.
This should be cheap and can be produce in number.

The son of Marut - apt tail sticker

Kersi · Post by **Kersi** » 13 Feb 2023 16:02

ernest wrote:
nash wrote:Certainly a storm is coming ...!!!

https://twitter.com/ReviewVayu/status/1 ... 5633724416

As a unmanned variant this can be the ORCA of CATS MUM-T system.
This should be cheap and can be produce in number.
The son of Marut - apt tail sticker

YES
The front fuselag and cockpit looks like that of a HF-24 Marut !!!

Nikhil_Naya · Post by **Nikhil_Naya** » 13 Feb 2023 18:05

arunsrinivasan wrote:
Pratyush wrote:https://www.livefistdefence.com/hal-unv ... c-trainer/

February 10, 2023

HAL Unveils Cleansheet Supersonic Trainer
This article says the engine is likely to be 404. I guess it would be cheaper, but by how much?

Why not the Kaveri? 80kN for a light weight aircraft (trainer) will allow you to supersonic. Its a trainer (not a fighter) so a Mach 1.4 or so should be sufficient?

AkshaySG · Post by **AkshaySG** » 13 Feb 2023 19:24

HVT and the others in the know have come out swinging against any skepticism that HAL is biting off more than it can chew and I'm sure they have the most accurate info available

However one cannot help but still feel that way especially knowing how stingy IAF and MOD have been in the past with supporting such programs with Pre orders in significant numbers

When it comes to finances there is only so much money from other programs that HAL can use for its R&D and my understanding is that they had already been doing so for Mk2 and a few other programs

The bigger concern though is manpower and scaling up, With a potential 250+ LCA variants to build this decade (Mk1, Mk1A, Mk2) , A fifth Gen and naval fighter to develop, Multiple concurrent helo programs running which themselves will have orders in the many 100s and new basic and intermediate trainers coming... How do they plan to spare anything for a new program let alone a clean sheet design

I mean that's probably more programs than LM and Boeing combined have going on right now.

And again the confidence is commendable as and it's great to see the push for indigenous content but they need to be careful as well. Any dropped balls when it comes to Mk2 or AMCA will open up the doors for yet another gazillion $ import order.

I think they (HAL, IAF, MOD) need to prioritize or bring in private partners for some of these programs to ensure build up of the mil industry and not have a single point of failure if something goes belly up at HAL

JTull · Post by **JTull** » 13 Feb 2023 19:34

Every Aero India, HAL will 'come out swinging' with something new and not follow it up with anything tangible. I'd like them challenged on IJT and CATS loyal wingman.

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2023 20:49

https://twitter.com/VivekSi85847001/sta ... S5ukcSoURw --->

Rakesh · Post by **Rakesh** » 13 Feb 2023 20:54

https://twitter.com/idrwalerts/status/1 ... S5ukcSoURw --->

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 14 Feb 2023 01:00

Nikhil_Naya wrote:This will probably be our JF17 equivalent for Exports. There is a huge market for cheap, low cost medium range aircraft. HAL chief clearly says that it will be an all metal aircraft. Probably Digital FBW with 2 Analog channel Backups. A potential Mig21 for the 2030s. 2 seat trainer and single seat fighter. Only unlike the Bandar, it will have better serviceability, a decent radar and Indian missiles. Being all metal, production rates could be better as well.

I think this is the correct interpretation. IAF may get a sqn or two of this combat capable Maruti as a modern MOFTU equivalent but primarily this is HAL reacting to the 'lessons learnt' from the couple of fighter trainer competitions they have been part of.
They have understood what the customers want and this is their understanding of an export oriented initiative. Nothing wrong in it.

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Feb 2023 07:28

My interpretation of HLFT-42 is slightly different
1. I have the same concern as many, HAL hands are full, how will it do this program without impacting many other delayed programs?
2. Having said that - It fills the gap of LIFT, a cheaper variant, for the local and export market.
3. But if this is LIFT, why put a very high-performance engine (f 414) and why so many hardpoints?
4. I think HAL is developing this as an attack aircraft as well. IAF has none and would not want to have any, but having these trainers doubling as attack aircraft, IAF may buy more compared to if it was just LIFT. This is no LIFT, it is an attack aircraft disguised as LIFT