Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

The Strategic Issues & International Relations Forum is a venue to discuss issues pertaining to India's security environment, her strategic outlook on global affairs and as well as the effect of international relations in the Indian Subcontinent. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32437
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

ramana wrote: 23 Jul 2023 20:23 I came across a book "Baptizing Burma" about the US effort to convert Burmese tribals.

Along with that, they encourage growing poppy for funds.




abrahamic conversions of the NE was the price that was paid by neverwho's India for the political support, some weapons, and the wheat shipments (PL480) that the amrikis provided to India to help her out to check the cheenis expanding militarily into India and the culinary institute was the primary agency responsible, funding and helping out the padres who entered in large numbers.

The congi + padre hands are covered with the blood of these strategically instigated conflicts, and the NE is also where these traitors are instigating separatists and the political wells were poisoned decades ago

The very difficult access to the NE was due to a purposeful and congi govt policy that ensured a scanty road network and admin hurdles like "inner line permits" etc.

(it was purposely done to ensure and keep out lakhs of ordinary Indians who surely would have gone there, otherwise wouldn't there have been tens of thousands of small chai shops being set up by our cousins from a small southern state)

It is only now that rail and roads have entered the NE, and almost simultaneously, the troubles have flared up in those places.

This BIF instigating separatists is a landmine that was strategically sown some decades ago, and it has been once again set off now, before the elections...

These intra tribal conflicts have been simmering for some time now due to poppy cultivation and the majority metis being pushed away from their traditional lands to help clear the ground for more poppy growing.

One understands that poppy is being currently grown in 16-20K acres of land which are protected by abrahamic converted tribes who are the main cultivators and that is the crux of the conflict.

Easy to guess who the buyers and the transporters are....

the pakis, cheenis, and specially the amrikis, are all active in the region and it is quite easy, $$$ wise, to influence the tribal peoples who have a very fluid concept of national borders per se, nationalism, and patriotism

The Supreme Court on Wednesday observed that an order passed by the Manipur High Court directing the state government to consider petitions of the Meitei community to be included in the Scheduled Tribe category was “completely factually wrong”, reported Bar and Bench.

Last week, the court noted that the president has the power to seek changes in the Scheduled Caste or Scheduled Tribe list, and not the High Court.

The order related to Meitei community was passed by a single-judge bench of Acting Chief Justice MV Muralidaran of the High Court on April 19.
The judgement had revived old anxieties between the majority Meitei community and the hill tribes in the northeastern state, leading to violent clashes and deaths.

https://scroll.in/latest/1049253/manipu ... ng-says-sc

Meitei community to be included in the Scheduled Tribe category means more privileges and more LAND allotment to them

note the name of who passed the order

he is a familiar name...


like one said earlier, it's a LANDmine
Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 1531
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Haresh »

"Another major skill set imparted to the Mizo missionaries is that of vulnerability mapping, wherein based on certain parameters, Mizo proselytisers are taught to identify Communities, Ethnic groups, Localities and Individuals who are susceptible to conversions, such as villages/ families devasted by natural disasters like floods, economic or medical catastrophes, individuals and families suffering from terminal or long term illnesses, underdeveloped/ remote localities, and Single parent orphans or orphans etc."

May be we need to do the same? Why do we not reach out to our own vulnerable people ?

"With access to a never-ending supply of finances and manpower, along with a methodical approach to proselytization, the Mizo Church has been particularly successful."

"Supported by a strong cash inflow from foreign donors such as the Presbyterian Church, USA, Princeton Theological Seminary, USA, Presbyterian Church of Wales, UK, World Communion of Reformed Church, UK, Christian Reform World Mission USA, Council of world missions, UK, and the Church Mission Society, UK"

All of these church organizations are against everything liberal, they are essentially the christian taliban, their views in the west to issues such gay/womens rights, extreme right wing politics needs to be highlighted

How difficult would it be to develop the same approach to defend against these hyenas ?
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32437
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

sid luwang@sidluwang·Jul 20


Image
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

A quick overview of Manipur history by Abhijit Chavda



Nagas and Meiteis are the original inhabitants of Manipur. Nagas are those who dwelt in the mountains and Meiteis are the valley dwellers and mostly Hindus. The Kuki are imported from the neighboring provinces in China and parts of Burma. Meiteis opposed the Britshits. Which in turn the Britshits targeted them and imposed Christianity and flooded the place with Kukis. The Britshits used these regions to grow poppy and were knee deep in drug trade worldwide. Now every shitty academic in the US supports the Kukis.

I don't understand why India is not paying attention to the northeast and correcting the Britshit nonsense of mischief.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32437
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

bala wrote: 27 Jul 2023 01:55 A quick overview of Manipur history by Abhijit Chavda



Nagas and Meiteis are the original inhabitants of Manipur. Nagas are those who dwelt in the mountains and Meiteis are the valley dwellers and mostly Hindus. The Kuki are imported from the neighboring provinces in China and parts of Burma. Meiteis opposed the Britshits. Which in turn the Britshits targeted them and imposed Christianity and flooded the place with Kukis. The Britshits used these regions to grow poppy and were knee deep in drug trade worldwide. Now every shitty academic in the US supports the Kukis.

I don't understand why India is not paying attention to the northeast and correcting the Britshit nonsense of mischief.




bala saar,

check this out. some of your queries may find answers here....



viewtopic.php?p=2596074#p2596074
Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 1531
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Haresh »

Why is this always happening in church associated institutions ??

"TikTok star and English language teacher Luke Rockwell, 29, with 2m followers is arrested for 'having sex with a minor he infected with STDs' while working at private Christian schools in Bangkok"

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... kwell.html
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6118
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

Please correct your thinking.

Such activity is a hallmark of the heathens in India. Perhaps also hypersexualised blacks in the west.
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

Kapaleeswarar was moved from Santhome to Mylapore in Chennai due Portuguese invasion

The ancient Kapaleeswarar Temple at San Thome visited by Thirugyanasambandar in 6th century AD and Arunagirinathar in 1456 was destroyed by the Catholic Portuguese in 1561. To cleverly cover up this act of crime, the Catholic Church has come up with the fraudulent fable of Martyrdom of St. Thomas at Mylapore in 73 AD. {btw, until 325 AD no one heard about Jesus Christ}. The Portuguese domination of Mylapore lasted from 1522 to 1697, by which time the British had established themselves in the Fort St. George and adjoining territories and the Portuguese had to withdraw to Goa where their Empire lasted until 1962.

Swami Tapasyananda has observed `In Goa Portuguese rule was noted for a spree of destruction of Hindu Temples and persecution of the Goanese, so much so that large sections of them had to flee that territory and settle all along the west coast of India. They are the Gauda Sarawats. The fate of these Goanese would have overtaken the Temples and the people of Madras also, a foretaste of which contingency they got in the destruction of the holy Kapaleeshwara Temple.

Sita Ram Goel in his outstanding book titled `HISTORY OF HINDU-CHRISTIAN ENCOUNTERS (AD 304 TO AD 1996)' has given his magisterial verdict:
`The history of Christianity, crowded as it is with crimes of the most horrendous kind, provides a running commentary on the Christian doctrine. And the biggest share in Christian crimes down the centuries can safely be allotted to the Roman Catholic Church, its head, its hierarchy, its theologians, its religious orders and its missionaries. There is, however, one criminal field in which the Roman Catholic Church has remained unrivaled. No other Christian denomination —there are as many as 23000 of them - comes anywhere near the Roman Catholic Church when it concerns committing of blatant forgeries and foisting of pious frauds. It is no exaggeration to say that starting with Jesus Christ, the entire doctrinal and institutional edifice of Catholicism rests on a series of staggering swindles. The Roman Catholic Church in India has remained true to this tradition. The literature it has produced during the last five centuries is full of lies of the filthiest sort, not only about Hindu religion and culture but also about its own `religion' and role. And this garbage heap is topped by the hoax about the so-called St Thomas'.

After India's Independence, the Catholic Church went on spreading the myth of murder and martyrdom of St. Thomas at Mylapore in the first century A.D. Meanwhile, the Liberation Theology of the Church had added a new dimension to it. St. Thomas started being sold not only as the first founder of Christianity in India but also as the first to proclaim a new social message in this country.

C A Simon under the title `In Memory Of a Slain Saint', struck a new revolutionary note: `St. Thomas spent the last part of his life in Madras preaching the Gospel. A large number of people listened and embraced the way of life preached by him. The oppressed and downtrodden followed him and claimed equal status in society as it was denied to them by the prevailing social norms. He condemned untouchability and attempted to restore equal status to women'.

In November 2006 Pope Benedict XVI had categorically stated that St.Thomas never visited South India.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6118
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

Why would that matter? It is a minor point.

There is no historicity of their god.

The only difference between worshipping an abrahamic god and worshipping a cow is that the cow is real.
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

sanjaykumar wrote: 10 Sep 2023 00:47 There is no historicity of their god.

The only difference between worshipping an abrahamic god and worshipping a cow is that the cow is real.
BG 4.24
ब्रह्मार्पणं ब्रह्म हविर्ब्रह्माग्नौ ब्रह्मणा हुतम् |
ब्रह्मैव तेन गन्तव्यं ब्रह्मकर्मसमाधिना || 24||
brahmārpaṇaṁ brahma havir brahmāgnau brahmaṇā hutam
brahmaiva tena gantavyaṁ brahma-karma-samādhinā

Some history:
हुतम् hutam (offered) became gutam in german and gott in dutch and finally god in Angrez.

The West notion of Brahman is not the same as the Vedic. Abrahamic "god" is not equivalent to the Vedic concept of Brahman. Bra in sanskrit is to expand. Brahman is truly unknown and beyond material considerations. But by universal consciousness we can infer the presence of such entity. It is considered Nirguna i.e. without attributes because attributes are for strictly objects. Brahman is considered both infinity and shunyam in Vedic times. However since Brahman is truly unknown and nirguna, the human mind can only conjure up objects and the great thing Vedic practice provided is to have any object of worship (cow included). That is why Bharat has many worship murthis, which is confused with "god". The Vedics conjectured (rightly so) that the universe is governed by 3 principles - creation, destruction and preservation (brahma, shiva, vishnu). Around these 3 principles were erected murthis conceived by the human mind. Furthermore they delineated the instigator from the raw power and the Vedics designated Shiva (male, instigator) and Shakti (female, raw power). Most Vedic murthis are consecrated, i.e. the object is said to represent that great hidden power of the Brahman. In South Temples, the murthi's third eye, the dwajastamba and temple kalasha atop the entrance spire are at an angle of 23 degrees, the tilt of earth's spinning axis. This points to the Vishnu nabhi or cosmos center where the nakshatras are clustered. By praying to the murthi you are directly communicating to the power behind the cosmos and that is why Vedics emphasized shraddha (inner belief) rather than blind bhakti. You don't need a middleman to communicate to the Brahman. Temple pujaris are there to get you in the right frame of mind/concentration. There is no coercion. It is up to you to use your own shraddha which is intertwined with universal consciousness.
ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 59810
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ramana »

bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

Thanks ramana!

A central figure in the propagation of Christianity is Flavia Julia Helena known as Helena of Constantinople or Saint Helena. Sources agree that Helena was a Greek, probably from Asia Minor in modern Turkey. She was a "concubine" and had a relationship with Constantius. The precise legal nature of the relationship between Helena and Constantius is unknown. Helena gave birth to the future emperor Constantine I. Constantius has no relations with Helena and some time before 289, he married Theodora. Constantius was appointed caesar (heir-apparent) of Maximian. Constantius was a pagan.

Constantine I was proclaimed augustus (emperor) in 306 by Constantius' troops after the latter had died. Constantine I appointed his mother Helena as Augusta, and gave her unlimited access. Constantine I lived much of his life as a pagan. He did not follow Christianity. His son Constantine II, raised by grandmother Helena, was raised in Helena's belief, Christianity. Upon death of Constantine I the Catholic Church claimed that Constantine I died as a Christian.

The Nicean council was constituted in 325 AD. The Nicean council did not talk about the physical Jesus but the spiritual Jesus. In AD 326–28 Helena undertook a trip to Palestine. She was responsible for the construction or beautification of the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem, and the Church of Eleona on the Mount of Olives; sites of Christ's birth and ascension, respectively. A temple to Venus over the supposed site of Jesus' tomb near Calvary existed. Helena ordered the temple to be torn down and lo and behold excavation yielded 3 crosses. The legend states that a woman was near death touched one of the cross and Helena declared the cross with which the woman had been touched to be the True Cross. { how miraculous this all sounds, when up to 325 AD no one ever heard about a person called Jesus Christ}
Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 1531
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Haresh »

Florida 'church of healing' leader, 65, and his three sons are sentenced to up to 12 years in prison for selling bleach as a 'miracle cure' for COVID, HIV and autism

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... utism.html
Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 1531
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Haresh »

'A good butter, unsalted of course because we're not heathens, will ensure it keeps its crisp crunch.' :roll: :roll: :roll:

Have YOU been making beans on toast all wrong? Heinz forced to publish step-by-step guide after Brits bungle classic meal

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... Brits.html
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

Prof Kenneth Humphreys (a British scholar and activist, writer, radio broadcaster, and public speaker) in Sangam Talks says that the more he delved into Jesus he is unable to prove whether such a person actually existed. He wrote a book "Jesus Never Existed" which was published and has been exported to more than thirty countries. A writer with a consuming passion for religion and history, and having devoted much of his life to the careful study of ancient history, Humphreys harbors no doubt: Jesus, the non-existent son of a non-existent father, will soon be consigned to a place among his ancestors Adam, Noah, Abraham, and Moses in the realm of mythology, not history.

95% of Mark's gospel appears in Matthew. For Mark, Jesus was an allegorical character. Incidents in Bible identical to those in Dead Sea Scrolls. The towns recorded by Roman historian Josephus are not there in the Gospels. Christianity took its best ideas from Judaism. John the baptist skull head is kept in Germany, Hungary and Italy. In India, the Santhome church (created by the Portuguese by demolishing a Kabali-eswar temple) believed Saint Thomas visited Chennai but the Vatican Pope declared that no such person visited Chennai, India.

YT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QTmZlckcwMY
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5491
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Cyrano »

In South Temples, the murthi's third eye, the dwajastamba and temple kalasha atop the entrance spire are at an angle of 23 degrees, the tilt of earth's spinning axis.
Bala saar, I have never seen this in any of the temples I visited in the south. Any examples? Also IIRC the tilt in the earth's axis is not constant over time.
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

Cyrano, the main murthi's third eye (i.e. the spot on forehead above the eyes), the top of dwajastamba (which has irridium/rhodium elements) and entrance gopuram's kalasha on top (which has sacred water, water remembers everything) form a straight line at an angle of around 23 degrees. It is not obvious to anyone. You have to imagine this by careful observation. This is part of the consecration of the murthi. You pray in earnest to the murthi as a vehicle for your thoughts/prayers and that is transmitted and remembered to that Brahman at Vishnu Nabi (center of universe). The earth is a spinning top, with respect to nakshatras and the exact tilt degree is computed at time of consecration. The entire thing is well thought out and executed in every south Indian temple.
Cyrano
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5491
Joined: 28 Mar 2020 01:07

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Cyrano »

Thanks BBala saar, this is not difficult to check, all you need is the height of the goupra kalahsam, the dhwajasthambam, which are accessible even if the sanctum with lingam isn't for most people, and the distance between the three which are almost always aligned on a straight line. Perhaps anyone today with a basic knowledge of trigonometry (tri-koNa-miti) with a goniometer can measure this.

What happens in Vishnava temples ? Most have a moola virat who is in a standing position (balaji for ex) or reclining (Sri Rangoon or any Ranganadha temple).
ricky_v
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ricky_v »

https://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/20 ... amkar.html
India’s swift urbanization is reshaping the nation’s identity, with over one-third of the population now in major cities. For many missiologists, this new demographic reality calls for a recalibration of the church’s approach, one that moves beyond traditional rural missions to address the complexities of urban life.

In recognition of this shift, in 2014 the Evangelical Fellowship of India created the National Centre for Urban Transformation (NCUT) to educate and train Christian leaders to reach migrants, professionals, the poor, women, and students in urban environments. NCUT develops urban ministry courses for Bible colleges and seminaries, conducts research, and is working in 32 of the country’s cities with populations ranging between 500,000 to 9 million residents.



Christian missions historically began in cities, evident with the arrival of the first Protestant missionaries in Tharangambadi (a coastal city in southeastern India) and William Carey’s leadership in Kolkata (the capital of West Bengal State). Recognizing the strategic importance of cities, missionaries established their bases there, initially focused on reaching the upper castes, especially Brahmins. When this strategy struggled to take hold, they shifted to the rural areas and ministered to outcastes, which is where attention has largely remained until today.

Urbanization in India goes beyond city boundaries; it’s about the pervasive urban mindset even in villages, which are no longer as close-knit as they used to be, and individualism and consumerism on the rise.

Early missionary societies, like the Church Missionary Society (now known as the Church Mission Society) and the Methodists, began their work in urban centers, focusing on cantonment, or army, areas. The Salvation Army, YMCA, and YWCA also concentrated on urban outreach, particularly among the poor.

Recently, significant urban ministries in South India, such as megachurches, have emerged, impacting educated urban youth. Independent churches in city peripheries reach lower-income communities.

One of the most impressive and unique models now seen in key northern Indian cities are the various “Christward” movement models. While there have been reports from gatherings as large as 2,000 to 20,000, most are small groups of people from urban areas who hail from middle- to low-caste backgrounds who come together to learn more about Jesus. Led by bi-vocational pastors/leaders drawn from within their communities, these movements demonstrate a spontaneous response of urban people to the person and teachings of Jesus Christ without becoming part of the established church or traditional Christianity.

These movements do not fit into any traditional mission mold and are unique because they allow those interested in Christianity to participate without them crossing the sociolinguistic and cultural borders. That is, they retain many of their cultural and linguistic distinctives, but their theology is Christian. This model of the emerging Christward movements may serve as a strategic example for the rest of India and perhaps the world.

For example, an IT company in Bangalore, led by a Christian group of professionals, makes a very conscious effort to engage with non-Christian IT professionals and arrange some innovative and creative events, through which they attempt to communicate Christian values and perspectives on issues that these professionals face.

Another Christian group has started a similar ministry among call center professionals, who usually work at night and leave early in the morning. This church has identified Christians at different centers in Bangalore who network with these young professionals and organize events in their cafeterias, where they can interact with other Christian professionals and connect with other Christians who keep in touch with them after their work.

In some call centers, early morning praise and worship events are scheduled, keeping in mind that non-Christian professionals may also attend.
In every city, slums house a significant portion of the poor, mainly rural migrants with minimal skills for urban survival. Exploited and underpaid, they form a substantial unorganized labor force.

The city’s church is obligated to show Christlike compassion by addressing the needs of the poor. This involves healthcare, education, nutritious food, job training, and legal assistance for settlement issues.

The church must be particularly sensitive to migrants forced into the city due to natural calamities. Providing acceptance, food, shelter, and sustenance, the church can also communicate the gospel effectively within the migrants’ networks, both in the city and in their native places. This requires the urban church to develop holistic plans, networks, and partnerships with experts working among the urban poor.
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

The Nicean council debated about the spiritual Christ not the physical Christ. The question of whether a physical Jesus existed is a question mark, people like Prof Kenneth Humphreys believe that "Jesus Never Existed".

Vedveer Arya takes facts from biblical sources and concludes that based on astronomical evidence, chronological evidence that the birth of "non existent" Jesus could be in 600 BC, in fact 10 Jan 660 BC (Star of Bethlehem: conjunction of jupiter and venus, later a conjunction of mercury and jupiter) to be precise. Furthermore, Vedveer has dates for Babylonian rulers, Greek rulers, Roman rulers and Jewish Kings.

Mathew's gospel says that Jesus was born during Judea king Herod's reign. Josephus says prior to Herod's death a total solar eclipse preceded. Gospel of Luke 2:1-5 says that Jesus was born when Quirinius, a Roman governor of Syria, conducted a census of Judea during the reign of Augustus. Josephus says that the taxation of Judea was carried out after it joined the Roman empire. The coins issued by Quirinius state the 36th year of Caesar Augustus.

Watch YT for further details..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2PPJT9P7tZQ
ricky_v
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ricky_v »

https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -religion/
Prince Vladimir I of Kiev is a fratricide, a rapist, a drunk, and a heathen. Still, he has his moments of quiet contemplation. During one such mood, Vladimir begins to question his pagan faith. He sends ten wise men to investigate the four “civilized” religions: Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy.

After some time, they return. Of the Muslims they say: “There is no happiness among them—only sorrow and a dreadful stench.” Of the Catholics: “We beheld no glory there.” But of the Orthodox:

The Greeks led us to the edifices where they worship their God, and we knew not whether we were in heaven or on earth. For on earth there is no such splendor or such beauty, and we are at a loss how to describe it. We only know that God dwells there among men, and their service is fairer than the ceremonies of other nations. For we cannot forget that beauty. Every man, after tasting something sweet, is afterward unwilling to accept that which is bitter, and therefore we cannot dwell longer here.

Not long after, Vladimir is baptized into the Orthodox Church.

Now, a cynic might point out that the prince was also courting the Byzantine emperor’s sister Anna at the time. Yet no one can deny that his conversion was sincere. After he and Anna were engaged, Vladimir put away his four other wives and 800 concubines and gave up the binge-drinking, raping, and pillaging. The prince spent his remaining years on earth traveling the country, building churches and monasteries, and standing as godfather at the baptism of countless peasants.

So began the Christianization of the Slavs. In time, Vladimir would be raised to the altars as St. Vladimir the Great, Equal to the Apostles.


History is full of rulers who convert to Christianity, seemingly for political reasons, and yet find themselves growing truly devout, sometimes fanatically so. There’s Boris I of Bulgaria, Æthelberht of Kent, Clovis I of the Franks, and, of course, Constantine the Great.
Left-wing historians have long argued that Christianity was spread principally by cynical tyrants who used the church as a tool of religious terror to cow their subjects. In the last few years, more and more conservatives seem to believe that the masses will never choose Christendom (or Western civilization, or “Judeo-Christian values,” or whatever you want to call it) freely. It must be imposed upon them by a political elite—for their own good, of course. This is the basic assumption that underlies ideologies like Catholic integralism and Christian nationalism.
As Rodney Stark points out in his magnum opus The Rise of Christianity, the church grew at a rate of about 40 percent per decade for the first three centuries. It did so by entirely peaceful means and despite near-constant opposition from the Roman authorities.

According to Stark, “The projections reveal that Christianity could easily have reached half the population by the middle of the fourth century without miracles or conversion en masse”—or, indeed, help from the state. “As long as nothing changed in the conditions that sustained that forty-percent-a-decade growth rate,” he continues, “Constantine’s conversion would better be seen as a response to the massive exponential wave in progress, not as its cause.”

Fr. John Strickland, in his book Age of Paradise, put it more snappily: “Christianity did not take over the empire because Constantine converted to it. Constantine converted to it because it was taking over the empire.”
Conventional wisdom holds that the Faith spread first among the poor and especially slaves. This notion helped inspire Nietzsche’s dismissal of Christianity as a “slave revolt in morality.” It has also become a cornerstone of “liberation theology,” a fusion of Christianity and Marxism popular in the Americas. Like most conventional wisdom, it’s wrong. All the evidence, both past and present, suggests that the first converts were middle and upper-middle class, many of whom no doubt “encouraged” their slaves to embrace their new faith.

Whatever could possess a well-established Roman citizen to join an illegal religious sect? Stark’s answer is fairly simple. The upper classes tend to be better educated, and more educated folks are more likely to adopt radical new religions. This is true even in our own time. According to Stark’s research, over 80 percent of converts to modern cults—Scientology, Wicca, etc.—are college educated. In fact, they’re the most educated religious demographic, surpassing even Jews (76 percent). Meanwhile, only about half of Roman Catholics have attended college. Stark also notes the inordinate popularity of pseudo-religions like Christian Science and Spiritualism among the Victorian elite.

So while their economic and political status might incline them towards religious conservatism, the Roman elite were in fact the group most likely to embrace the new faith. If anything, the new religion’s “edginess” adds to its appeal.

As Stark points out, this wasn’t a hollow boast. It’s confirmed by pagan sources. No less than Julian the Apostate wrote an open letter to his priests complaining, “I think that when the poor happened to be neglected and overlooked by the priests, the impious Galileans observed this and devoted themselves to benevolence.” Also, “The impious Galileans support not only their own poor, but ours as well. Everyone can see that our people lack aid from us.”

We should also remember that, as Stark puts it, in ancient Rome “far more babies were born than were allowed to live.” The leading causes of mortality were infanticide followed by abortion. Contraception, sodomy, and homosexuality were all considered socially acceptable. The church, however, forbade all these practices. So while Roman birthrates plummeted overall, Christian birthrates were consistently high. Simply put, they outbred the pagans.

One point Stark emphasizes is that, in those first centuries, the faith spread mostly through interpersonal relationships, what sociologists call “social networks.” Most conversions were not achieved by street evangelists. The most effective proselytizers appealed to their friends and family—those with whom they enjoyed a high-trust relationship. I’m not sure if the Romans thought it was rude to talk religion at the dinner table but, if so, the first Christians didn’t care.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14361
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by Aditya_V »

Hmmm , Seems like this method is used in DMK and many parts of India.
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32437
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

Caste divisions in just one church .. via@noconversion


Image
ricky_v
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ricky_v »

Aditya_V wrote: 13 Dec 2023 16:03 Hmmm , Seems like this method is used in DMK and many parts of India.
imo, there seems to be 2 different streams of the christianity movement in india, in the southern and some of the eastern branch, the conversion seems to be slowly building up to the adoption by "elites" and thus to be in a pole position, in the northern branch, the movement is still nascent and currently being tested by the rurban demographics as of now, so one step behind the southern branch
venkat_kv
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 05 Dec 2020 21:01

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by venkat_kv »

ricky_v wrote: 13 Dec 2023 15:41 https://www.theamericanconservative.com ... -religion/
Prince Vladimir I of Kiev is a fratricide, a rapist, a drunk, and a heathen. Still, he has his moments of quiet contemplation. During one such mood, Vladimir begins to question his pagan faith. He sends ten wise men to investigate the four “civilized” religions: Islam, Judaism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy.

............

Not long after, Vladimir is baptized into the Orthodox Church.

Now, a cynic might point out that the prince was also courting the Byzantine emperor’s sister Anna at the time. Yet no one can deny that his conversion was sincere. After he and Anna were engaged, Vladimir put away his four other wives and 800 concubines and gave up the binge-drinking, raping, and pillaging. The prince spent his remaining years on earth traveling the country, building churches and monasteries, and standing as godfather at the baptism of countless peasants.

So began the Christianization of the Slavs. In time, Vladimir would be raised to the altars as St. Vladimir the Great, Equal to the Apostles.


History is full of rulers who convert to Christianity, seemingly for political reasons, and yet find themselves growing truly devout, sometimes fanatically so. There’s Boris I of Bulgaria, Æthelberht of Kent, Clovis I of the Franks, and, of course, Constantine the Great.
Left-wing historians have long argued that Christianity was spread principally by cynical tyrants who used the church as a tool of religious terror to cow their subjects. In the last few years, more and more conservatives seem to believe that the masses will never choose Christendom (or Western civilization, or “Judeo-Christian values,” or whatever you want to call it) freely. It must be imposed upon them by a political elite—for their own good, of course. This is the basic assumption that underlies ideologies like Catholic integralism and Christian nationalism.
As Rodney Stark points out in his magnum opus The Rise of Christianity, the church grew at a rate of about 40 percent per decade for the first three centuries. It did so by entirely peaceful means and despite near-constant opposition from the Roman authorities.

.........

Fr. John Strickland, in his book Age of Paradise, put it more snappily: “Christianity did not take over the empire because Constantine converted to it. Constantine converted to it because it was taking over the empire.”
Conventional wisdom holds that the Faith spread first among the poor and especially slaves. This notion helped inspire Nietzsche’s dismissal of Christianity as a “slave revolt in morality.” It has also become a cornerstone of “liberation theology,” a fusion of Christianity and Marxism popular in the Americas. Like most conventional wisdom, it’s wrong. All the evidence, both past and present, suggests that the first converts were middle and upper-middle class, many of whom no doubt “encouraged” their slaves to embrace their new faith.

.............
One point Stark emphasizes is that, in those first centuries, the faith spread mostly through interpersonal relationships, what sociologists call “social networks.” Most conversions were not achieved by street evangelists. The most effective proselytizers appealed to their friends and family—those with whom they enjoyed a high-trust relationship. I’m not sure if the Romans thought it was rude to talk religion at the dinner table but, if so, the first Christians didn’t care.
ricky_v Saar,
don't you think the above passages are trying to bring an alternative version as to how Christianity has spread. I would argue that Christianity used every tool available under the sun to spread either the elites or the masses depending on whatever was beneficial for it at that particular moment.
Constantine is said to have fought under the banner of a cross and converted after his victory.
And the passage also doesn't deal with the behavior of the new christian overlords behavior with respect to their previous pagan beliefs. If that weren't the case we wouldn't have wide spread destruction of previous pagan places of worship.

Even in the case of Scientology, there are a few from the masses who convert and then another set that convert when its a celebrity like Tom Cruise or a John Travolta. After the follower base reaches a critical mass ( and the base is grown in all possible ways - targeting a troubled mind to a confused person to blindly aping their idol or person of interest). You can bet that the day when Scientology has a person in position of power it will take off due to the sponsorship afforded by the person in power or the seat of power. They have viciously gone after ex-scientology members that have criticized the church and/or their way of working.

there are many disciples of many unknown religions or groups professing to following their messiah, that more often die out that rising to the top. Christianity has used every possible method at it disposal to spread, we have the goan inquisition by the portugese that helped spread their religion by torture and destruction. We have the case of Charlemagne who is said to have put every non christian to death for not converting in the lands under his control.

You find the same methods being used to destroy indigenous places or symbols of worship and then claim the greatness/ infallibilty of their god (this is nothing more than sleight of argument or fraud to put it bluntly). We see that in Andhra Pradesh as well where temples are attacked and every person involved in the attack so far has been called mentally unstable and released with no punishment. I am guessing it no different under DMK in TN. When you can attack the existing beliefs with no pain or losses then it will lead to a frenzy which could result in opening of flood gates after reaching a critical mass to convert or spread their belief system.

Christianity has ensured that no other religion emerges after it takes control, a formula which seems to have been refined even further with Islam that has brought absolute conditions to be a follower and the only way to leave the religion is mostly by death.

Saying that Christianity spread through what is akin to modern day "dinner table discussion" or social networking is more of a cop out, don't you think. In Africa i don't think it was the conversation among people that helped to spread it far and wide.
ricky_v
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ricky_v »

venkat_kv wrote: 20 Dec 2023 08:05

And the passage also doesn't deal with the behavior of the new christian overlords behavior with respect to their previous pagan beliefs. If that weren't the case we wouldn't have wide spread destruction of previous pagan places of worship.
let me preface by saying that the article is from a christian viewpoint, these are basically christian scholars whose aim is advocacy for their own cause; inclusion of the above is not necessarily germane to such discussions

don't you think the above passages are trying to bring an alternative version as to how Christianity has spread. I would argue that Christianity used every tool available under the sun to spread either the elites or the masses depending on whatever was beneficial for it at that particular moment.
Constantine is said to have fought under the banner of a cross and converted after his victory.
as an aside, why did no other religion try everything under the sun to spread, islam spread by the sword chiefly and proximity to power (as with trade later) was the chief concern for the ruling class of neighbouring regions such as persia, the hearts and minds approach of islam, sufism, is paradoxically more severe to observe, judaism is spread by the matrilineal line, but then again, they are the chosen people. Again, these articles are motivated, but they are also targeting certain audiences, if they advocate alternative histories for the genesis and spread it behooves for us to understand historicity and hopefully apply in an indian context to achieve our desired outcome.

Even in the case of Scientology, there are a few from the masses who convert and then another set that convert when its a celebrity like Tom Cruise or a John Travolta. After the follower base reaches a critical mass ( and the base is grown in all possible ways - targeting a troubled mind to a confused person to blindly aping their idol or person of interest). You can bet that the day when Scientology has a person in position of power it will take off due to the sponsorship afforded by the person in power or the seat of power. They have viciously gone after ex-scientology members that have criticized the church and/or their way of working.
scientology is imo a slightly bad example because it is a religion of the wealthy, the members have to contribute a significant amount to the church and that is out of reach for most of the masses, serving more like an exclusive club, it is also a bit odd as it has aliens and other planets and such. a much better example imo would have been served by considering the church of the latter day saints, or the mormons as they are popularly called, there too a large tithe is kicked up to the church but it is dependent on the financial condition of the individual and is more inclusive as far as wealth goes, but it also functions as a sort of club for its members where the networking advantages are similar in spirit if not in scope of scientology

You find the same methods being used to destroy indigenous places or symbols of worship and then claim the greatness/ infallibilty of their god (this is nothing more than sleight of argument or fraud to put it bluntly). We see that in Andhra Pradesh as well where temples are attacked and every person involved in the attack so far has been called mentally unstable and released with no punishment. I am guessing it no different under DMK in TN. When you can attack the existing beliefs with no pain or losses then it will lead to a frenzy which could result in opening of flood gates after reaching a critical mass to convert or spread their belief system.
i believe that this has been covered largely by rajiv malhotra in his books, the process of digesting indigenous practices and subsuming within the wider christian theology and leaving the husk to be explored centuries later by archivists and archaeologists
In Africa i don't think it was the conversation among people that helped to spread it far and wide.
lets start with africa first, as is the case with latin america, african christianity too is intertwined with local animistic beliefs and beliefs of their ancestors, i would posit that the role of christianity in africa more so than in south america was to act as a sort of codifying organisation where loosely held beliefs were placed under an overarching structure of a readymade church template, otherwise there is only islam in africa and that spread by sword in the north and trade in east, mid and west of africa.

also for africa, lets look at it with its natural geographic divisions:

Image

starting from the east, ethiopia and by extension the regions of eritrea, djiobuti are centres of ancient christianity, i believe one of the oldest rock cut churches in the world is in ethiopia plus they have some biblical role as well with the presence of queen sheba, so in that light this region has always been of a christian bent.

south was populated only by the khoisan initially and was discovered by the boers before the arrival of the bantus from west africa, tanzania and mozambique had long history of portugal rule; the grouse of spread is in central regions and in the western francophone nations, but i believe that political fukery was also afoot for obtaining resources on the cheap
Saying that Christianity spread through what is akin to modern day "dinner table discussion" or social networking is more of a cop out, don't you think.
let me put forth a theory that has currency in some parts of the net, christianity was wokism 1.0 and is now in a battle of either subsuming or being subsumed by the church of woke / intersectionality, for the lack of a better terminology. look at the church attendance numbers, it is falling every year in western and central europe, and has started falling in the us as well in certain denominations; ironically, the only denominations there is growth or atleast no fall is in those dealing with people from south american or african descent which are more of an integration of local beliefs within the wider christian framework, the other area it is rising is in the megachurch attendances, but then again those are more akin to rock concerts than conventional worship.

as for dinner discussions, i think the writer was attempting facetiousness but there are some truths that he accidentally uncovers but never follows through, and this is a bit controversial on my part, but i believe that certain religions followed the patriarchic mode and some the matriarchic, now judging ancient beliefs by shades of the present are not always wise, but let me put forth a viewpoint

the major delineation is to do with who keeps the faith in the household, and this includes the broader terms of rituals, invocations and all magics associated with it, historically that has leaned heavily towards the father figure to follow and the mother figure to instill the stories, morals and societal codes based on faith, its not a hard and fast rule but this pattern has mostly held.

Now christianity for some reason had a more focused outlook on the second aspect of the above, though one of its most celebrated stories is essentially one of magics, of returning to life; but this created an imbalance in the household, the scope to uphold and share with the new generation had become constrained and so discourse flowed more freely between the 2 genders than in other religions, that may be one reason for its focus on love, piety, healing which are all traditionally associated with the mother figure and the men to uphold such values by force if necessary, a neat precursor to the modern day witch hunting by the new adherents of the modified religion.

witches, i believe became a thing to fill the gap of the magics that was primarily the reserve of the masculine, but that was a no-no and thus the descendants of paganism lost their touch with their ancestors understanding of the world, so were dinner conversations instrumental in the spread of christianity, i believe so.
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6118
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

The obvious inference and in fact direct observation is that Christianity is become a religion of the slaves again.

The masters are now well educated and of an incomparably broader word view than third world denizens. Thus they are outgrowing the magic of Christianity. And yes, there are plenty of aliens and other worlds here. Only they are called saints, angels and demons; of their various grades.

Christianity’s success in its current spread is a manifestation of its failure.

I have to question those pious Christian third worlders who believe themselves now somehow elevated in civilisation. When the civilised themselves are former Christians. There is a hierarchy in the west which is never referenced in opinion pieces.
Marxists, social democrats, atheists, eastern religion adopters are seen to be free thinkers, more educated and more intelligent than the Christian. This process has been on going for over 100 years.

The discovery of life elsewhere in the cosmos will be the end of Christianity. The other Abrahamic creeds may linger. That is part of the source code of Christianity. It is not universal and is really a sect of Judaism, with the same problem of locality.
ricky_v
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ricky_v »

sanjaykumar wrote: 20 Dec 2023 20:09
Christianity’s success in its current spread is a manifestation of its failure.
deeply profound statement, sanjaykumar sir
The obvious inference and in fact direct observation is that Christianity is become a religion of the slaves again.

The masters are now well educated and of an incomparably broader word view than third world denizens. Thus they are outgrowing the magic of Christianity. And yes, there are plenty of aliens and other worlds here. Only they are called saints, angels and demons; of their various grades.
and this i think is one of the key lessons one must draw from the practice of religion itself, there must always be an element of magics / metaphysical, philosophical reckoning associated with religion, when one tries to make it as accessible as simply accepting the truth of an entity into your hearts, the exclusivity of religion loses its luster.

Only teaching the mores and deriving morals from events that surrounded the historicity of the religion itself is not enough, as there will always be an aspect that seeks to search for a higher cause. Christianity abandoned its miracles and magics phase and sought to utilise rational approach to every facet, now its fundament of the magics component is being fulfilled by rationale exemplar in a chrisitian context, the upliftment of the most downtrodden, but instead of misery absolution, crotch-first revolution.
I have to question those pious Christian third worlders who believe themselves now somehow elevated in civilisation. When the civilised themselves are former Christians. There is a hierarchy in the west which is never referenced in opinion pieces.
Marxists, social democrats, atheists, eastern religion adopters are seen to be free thinkers, more educated and more intelligent than the Christian. This process has been on going for over 100 years.
the entire societal elite has this aversion towards anything to do with religion, thats not only limited to the west, some of our "elites" too are disdainful of any opiate of the masses, as they would sneer. When they say eastern religion adopters, they also give a disclaimer usually, i am more spiritual than religious, anything that a known religious person says is usually viewed with suspicion, with a condescending smile never far from the face and that affliction transcends boundaries, i suppose if religion is the universal language of the masses, contempt is the global language of the elite
chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 32437
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chetak »

ricky_v wrote: 21 Dec 2023 16:50
sanjaykumar wrote: 20 Dec 2023 20:09
Christianity’s success in its current spread is a manifestation of its failure.
deeply profound statement, sanjaykumar sir
The obvious inference and in fact direct observation is that Christianity is become a religion of the slaves again.

The masters are now well educated and of an incomparably broader word view than third world denizens. Thus they are outgrowing the magic of Christianity. And yes, there are plenty of aliens and other worlds here. Only they are called saints, angels and demons; of their various grades.
and this i think is one of the key lessons one must draw from the practice of religion itself, there must always be an element of magics / metaphysical, philosophical reckoning associated with religion, when one tries to make it as accessible as simply accepting the truth of an entity into your hearts, the exclusivity of religion loses its luster.

Only teaching the mores and deriving morals from events that surrounded the historicity of the religion itself is not enough, as there will always be an aspect that seeks to search for a higher cause. Christianity abandoned its miracles and magics phase and sought to utilise rational approach to every facet, now its fundament of the magics component is being fulfilled by rationale exemplar in a chrisitian context, the upliftment of the most downtrodden, but instead of misery absolution, crotch-first revolution.
I have to question those pious Christian third worlders who believe themselves now somehow elevated in civilisation. When the civilised themselves are former Christians. There is a hierarchy in the west which is never referenced in opinion pieces.
Marxists, social democrats, atheists, eastern religion adopters are seen to be free thinkers, more educated and more intelligent than the Christian. This process has been on going for over 100 years.
the entire societal elite has this aversion towards anything to do with religion, thats not only limited to the west, some of our "elites" too are disdainful of any opiate of the masses, as they would sneer. When they say eastern religion adopters, they also give a disclaimer usually, i am more spiritual than religious, anything that a known religious person says is usually viewed with suspicion, with a condescending smile never far from the face and that affliction transcends boundaries, i suppose if religion is the universal language of the masses, contempt is the global language of the elite


ricky_v saar,


there is a great need for brown (or colored) boots on the ground with the leadership being solely provided by the white skinned elites

this ties in to their unspoken social and national requirements of no body bags returning with white skins shrouded inside them

Their failed model of global military power play and international intervention is making their governments back home highly unpopular and unelectable for the following term. The geopolitical antics of the cheen isn't making it any easier for them

Increasingly, the global commie cabal is usurping the erstwhile role of the amriki empire, while aping the even older model of the britshit empire and incorporating the East India company's cancerous morals and their affinity for grand larceny, that is so very deeply ingrained in the body politic of the amriki empire. It started in earnest with obummer, and it continues with the alzheimer ridden bidenwa and their needless interference in UKR, with his shadowy puppet masters pulling the strings and also subverting, sapping and draining the economy the EU, especially the huns



Make no mistake, the role of the padres and their ability to sell the sanctified snake oil to the natives is a government supported project of all the white states



Image
sanjaykumar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6118
Joined: 16 Oct 2005 05:51

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by sanjaykumar »

These observations on Christianity have a bearing on India’s strategic relations with Pakistan. The conflict is one of a medieval religiosity and a people who are largely laissez faire. The latter believe religion to be an individual matter and eschew mass displays of tribal affiliation. They pray privately. The go to temples individually or in family groups. They almost never bring up religion in casual conversation.

Christians are becoming like Hindus.


Pakistanis, as trenchantly observed by a certain Walia in a YT video, are alsways ready with an ahlamdulilah. The word nabi is never far from their speech. Now Walias are nominally Sikh but heavily Hinduised. They are often very successful businessmen.
It is not a coincidence.
venkat_kv
BRFite
Posts: 461
Joined: 05 Dec 2020 21:01

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by venkat_kv »

ricky_v wrote: 20 Dec 2023 15:41
venkat_kv wrote: 20 Dec 2023 08:05

And the passage also doesn't deal with the behavior of the new christian overlords behavior with respect to their previous pagan beliefs. If that weren't the case we wouldn't have wide spread destruction of previous pagan places of worship.
let me preface by saying that the article is from a christian viewpoint, these are basically christian scholars whose aim is advocacy for their own cause; inclusion of the above is not necessarily germane to such discussions

don't you think the above passages are trying to bring an alternative version as to how Christianity has spread. I would argue that Christianity used every tool available under the sun to spread either the elites or the masses depending on whatever was beneficial for it at that particular moment.
Constantine is said to have fought under the banner of a cross and converted after his victory.
as an aside, why did no other religion try everything under the sun to spread, islam spread by the sword chiefly and proximity to power (as with trade later) was the chief concern for the ruling class of neighbouring regions such as persia, the hearts and minds approach of islam, sufism, is paradoxically more severe to observe, judaism is spread by the matrilineal line, but then again, they are the chosen people. Again, these articles are motivated, but they are also targeting certain audiences, if they advocate alternative histories for the genesis and spread it behooves for us to understand historicity and hopefully apply in an indian context to achieve our desired outcome.


scientology is imo a slightly bad example because it is a religion of the wealthy, the members have to contribute a significant amount to the church and that is out of reach for most of the masses, serving more like an exclusive club, it is also a bit odd as it has aliens and other planets and such. a much better example imo would have been served by considering the church of the latter day saints, or the mormons as they are popularly called, there too a large tithe is kicked up to the church but it is dependent on the financial condition of the individual and is more inclusive as far as wealth goes, but it also functions as a sort of club for its members where the networking advantages are similar in spirit if not in scope of scientology

You find the same methods being used to destroy indigenous places or symbols of worship and then claim the greatness/ infallibilty of their god (this is nothing more than sleight of argument or fraud to put it bluntly). We see that in Andhra Pradesh as well where temples are attacked and every person involved in the attack so far has been called mentally unstable and released with no punishment. I am guessing it no different under DMK in TN. When you can attack the existing beliefs with no pain or losses then it will lead to a frenzy which could result in opening of flood gates after reaching a critical mass to convert or spread their belief system.
i believe that this has been covered largely by rajiv malhotra in his books, the process of digesting indigenous practices and subsuming within the wider christian theology and leaving the husk to be explored centuries later by archivists and archaeologists

Saying that Christianity spread through what is akin to modern day "dinner table discussion" or social networking is more of a cop out, don't you think.
let me put forth a theory that has currency in some parts of the net, christianity was wokism 1.0 and is now in a battle of either subsuming or being subsumed by the church of woke / intersectionality, for the lack of a better terminology. look at the church attendance numbers, it is falling every year in western and central europe, and has started falling in the us as well in certain denominations; ironically, the only denominations there is growth or atleast no fall is in those dealing with people from south american or african descent which are more of an integration of local beliefs within the wider christian framework, the other area it is rising is in the megachurch attendances, but then again those are more akin to rock concerts than conventional worship.

as for dinner discussions, i think the writer was attempting facetiousness but there are some truths that he accidentally uncovers but never follows through, and this is a bit controversial on my part, but i believe that certain religions followed the patriarchic mode and some the matriarchic, now judging ancient beliefs by shades of the present are not always wise, but let me put forth a viewpoint

the major delineation is to do with who keeps the faith in the household, and this includes the broader terms of rituals, invocations and all magics ..........
ricky_v Saar,
i agree with everything you have said. The highlighted and underlined point is a great observation Saar.
My point about Scientology was only to showcase a somewhat newer religion ( this is newer than Mormons) that it has members from the masses and the elite, though a substantial portion of their advts/conversion seem to show case their elites more (atleast when it came to mass media) and its process of conversion has been the same as christianity or Islam before it minus the overt violence. Every religion uses coercion with some overt or covert violence or threats of violence to spread their faith. I am not sure christianity was any different, but would argue that it was more violent in eliminating the pagan religions which seemed to have taken a more virulent form with Islam.

the issue of taking money from their masses as "club" exists within christianity in India as well. atleast in rural parts of AP the pastors require the converts to part with 10% of their earning to the local church, this has placed many a financial burden of the converts from the poorer strata which has ultimately resulted in a few to do a ghar wapasi.

Coming to Rajiv Malhotra's point of subsuming/digesting local customs and religions, my point was a slightly different tangent. The art of digesting local customs often involves fraud like showing Mary holding baby Ganesha in her arms, but what happened in AP was the destruction of temples and idols quite openly, while the padres mouthing off to their faithful in churches about their gods supremacy while the wanton destruction happens to Hindu places of worship. All of this ultimately results in the spread of christianity in the end if unchecked.

your points on matriarchic and patriarchic family and the division of work is well taken, i need to re-read to "digest" the points being made.
ricky_v
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ricky_v »

chetak wrote: 21 Dec 2023 19:44
Increasingly, the global commie cabal is usurping the erstwhile role of the amriki empire, while aping the even older model of the britshit empire and incorporating the East India company's cancerous morals and their affinity for grand larceny, that is so very deeply ingrained in the body politic of the amriki empire. It started in earnest with obummer, and it continues with the alzheimer ridden bidenwa and their needless interference in UKR, with his shadowy puppet masters pulling the strings and also subverting, sapping and draining the economy the EU, especially the huns
chetak sir, interestingly this time round, the cabal, for the lack of a better word, is a globalised parasitic system, not necessarily beholden to one government, not deriving strength from one government, not necessarily dependent on one government only on accomplish its whims, but is a tacit conscious and sub-conscious agreement between the managerial class spread worldwide, more commonly observed in the mores / societal attitudes and more or less a common vision based on a perceived or real upbringing background.

i would say that bush jr actually kicked off the entire thing, but it took shape under the golden aegis of the noble prize winning patron saint of drone operators and under biden has found resurgence after the 4 years of mostly tamped down expectations under the bad orange man.
there is a great need for brown (or colored) boots on the ground with the leadership being solely provided by the white skinned elites

this ties in to their unspoken social and national requirements of no body bags returning with white skins shrouded inside them

Make no mistake, the role of the padres and their ability to sell the sanctified snake oil to the natives is a government supported project of all the white states
and the above is an interesting conclusion as well; when growing up, the "correct" way to look at eastern european history and contemporary politics was by understanding the word "gaslighting", every news publication, nascent articles, books had the same disdainful attitude, that the eastern euros / commies could only govern by gaslighting their population and by building of potemkin villages, everything a show and sham, quite contrary to the free thinking population of the west; in the current year, being a snake oil salesman is an admired and government approved occupation in certain free nations, some are delegated against own population, others are prima facie conscripted to solicit salvation of souls hitherto bound for sad places for misplaced beliefs of elders, somehow though that also works out to act as a deterrent of majoritarianism, a happy coincidence and nothing more
ricky_v
BRFite
Posts: 1145
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by ricky_v »

https://archive.is/B4d41
America, as a Catholic bishop friend likes to say, is the fruit of a mixed marriage: a child of both biblical faith and Enlightenment reason. The marriage was never perfect. It was often fractious. But in happier days, it produced a public square and popular culture shaped by a remarkable degree of responsible freedom. Now, as Christian practice steadily declines in the United States, mom and dad are getting a divorce. The result could get ugly, and the reason is simple. John Courtney Murray—the influential Jesuit theologian and a man clearly sympathetic to the American experiment—noted that, without its biblical grounding,


American culture, as it exists, is actually the quintessence of all that is decadent in the culture of the Western Christian world. It would seem to be erected on the triple denial that has corrupted Christian culture at its roots, the denial of metaphysical reality; [the denial of] the primacy of the spiritual over the material; [and the denial] of the social over the individual. … Its most striking characteristic is its profound materialism. … It has given citizens everything to live for and nothing to die for. And its achievement may be summed up thus: It has gained a continent and lost its own soul.

which ties in with my contention of the matriarchic and patriarchic division for propagation of religion and the case of christianity of tilting heavily towards the earthly instead of the philosophical / metaphysical

He added that, “in view of the fact that American culture is built on the negation of all that Christianity stands for, it would seem that our first step toward the construction of a Christian culture should be the destruction of the existing one. In the presence of a Frankenstein, one does not reach for baptismal water, but for a bludgeon.”

Murray spoke those words in 1940. Mainline Protestant Churches had already begun their collapse into the nation’s increasingly secular environment. He believed, or at least hoped, that Catholics would take their place as the culture’s Christian conscience. Catholics had faced a century of bigotry and occasional violence as a suspect minority in a heavily Protestant country. But precisely because of that, Catholics had a high degree of community integrity and potential public witness.
Murray’s reasoning thus made sense … in theory. In practice, he underestimated the U.S. Catholic appetite to assimilate. He also misread the culture’s capacity—the materialist spirit and hugely productive pragmatism at the heart of our national personality—to bleach out any serious religious witness and leavening. More than 80 years later, most American Catholics are indistinguishable from anyone else in the public square. Our current Catholic president is merely the most obvious example, an icon of where “cultural Christianity” leads.

Not so with Williams. The author trained in the Classics and specializes in the Greco-Roman world. She drills down through the crust of the past to provide a kind of soil sample of Christian experience through the centuries. The result is a detailed record of “cultural Christians,” their foibles, and their unseemly compromises with the world in three distinct periods: the New Testament era, the age of persecutions, and the age of Constantine and beyond. Her reference to Cyprian, bishop of Carthage, and his third century text On the Dress of Virgins is especially memorable. He was irritated by the habit of consecrated Christian virgins bathing nude in mixed-gender Roman public pools. That does tend to stick in the imagination.
And as the historian Christopher Lasch noted, Americans are uniquely prone to nostalgia because we have so little interest in and facility with real history—a fact that’s hardwired into our nation’s gene code as a novus ordo seclorum, a “new order of the ages.” For Christians, this is lethal. Just as Jews have kept their distinct identity alive, despite centuries of persecution, through the discipline of zakhor (remembering), so too it must be with the Church.
chanakyaa
BRFite
Posts: 1724
Joined: 18 Sep 2009 00:09
Location: Hiding in Karakoram

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by chanakyaa »

Pope: Marxists and Christians have a common mission
VATICAN CITY - Pope Francis wants "the courage to step outside the box" and an opening in dialogue for "new paths". Christians as well as socialists, Marxists and communists have a common mission, said the Pontiff, citing practical examples.
...
"Do not allow finance and the market to dictate the law," the Pope urged his guests.
...
DIALOP
DIALOP transversal Dialogue Project. DIALOP fosters and supports the dialogue of good willing persons, with secular and religious backgrounds, especially between Socialist/Marxists and Christians. In collaboration with universities and other formal or informal educational institutions, DIALOP aims to develop and implement the fields of a Social Ethics, applying the principles of the Marxian Social Critique and the Social Doctrine of the Church. This project is called RESET.
sanjayc
BRFite
Posts: 1098
Joined: 22 Aug 2016 21:40

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by sanjayc »

Marxism is Christianity without Jesus, so it figures. "There is no God and his prophet is Karl Marx."
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

There is nothing original in Abrahamism | Zoroastrianism | Sanjay Dixit @ jaipur dialogues

Sanjay Dixit (SD) explains his book that All religions are not the same

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cSxOHn7jYAQ

SD explains the origins of all religions, their governing principles and key concepts. This is highly important so that we don't equate all religions with each other. Their assumptions, thoughts and much more are often orthogonal to say Sanatan Dharma. Many in the west try to stuff the concept that religions are the same and also christianity is superior to the rest. Christianity itself is a made up concept with no clear evidence of a physical person called Jesus, instead the spiritual Jesus is talked about in the Nicean Council 325 AD.

He talks a lot about Christianity and how the Roman Kings were arm twisted into adopting Christianity and their intolerance towards other practices which were clubbed under pagans. By 380 AD by edict Roman empire banned all other religions except Christianity and the Pope became all powerful.

SD also talks about the middle east, like Nabateans, Sabaeans, old literature like Ginza Rabba (which is incorporated into Quran).

This YT is lesson on many things and worth watching, you can learn many things.
bala
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2016
Joined: 02 Sep 1999 11:31
Location: Office Lounge

Re: Christianity, Evangelism & its geopolitical impact

Post by bala »

Deleted
Post Reply