MRCA (Many Rakshaks Choose Aircraft) Contest - Episode III

[Rakesh]

Amid Indigenous Tejas Mk-2's Development, SAAB Offers Single-Engine Gripen E For IAF's 114 Advanced Fighter Jet Contract
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/amid-in ... t-contract
28 August 2023

The likelihood of IAF purchasing the Gripen E jet in the competition is quite low. This is due to the fact that the Defence Research & Development Organisation (DRDO) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) are currently working on the development of a single-engine Tejas Mk-2, which falls within the same weight class as the Gripen E. Operating two aircraft of the same weight class, both powered by the same American General Electric (GE) F414 jet engine, could have a negative impact on the Tejas Mk-2 development program. Furthermore, twin-engine fighters like the F-15EX, Eurofighter Typhoon, Dassault Rafale, and Russian Su-35 offer longer range, superior kinematics, and greater payload capability compared to the single-engine Gripen E.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/SaabIndia/status/16 ... 11/photo/1

Saab will offer 114 state-of-the-art Gripen E fighters as a part of its response to the upcoming IAF RFP. With Gripen E, India will get next-generation combat air capability and world-class availability - ready to face any threat, any time, anywhere, from any dispersed location.

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 45789?s=20 ---> The Gripen E is an extremely advanced & capable aircraft. That said, it is unlikely to make the grade simply because it has too much in common with the Tejas Mk1A. Also Sweden is a geopolitical lightweight & any strategic relationship will not bring significant benefit as compared with France, USA or even Russia. The French have practically won this already with the @SAFRAN engine technology co development offer and potential for Barracuda technology to flow into the Indian SSN program. Rest is purely bureaucratic niceties!

[rajsunder]

https://twitter.com/SaabIndia/status/16 ... 11/photo/1

https://twitter.com/Aryan_warlord/statu ... 45789?s=20 ---> The Gripen E is an extremely advanced & capable aircraft. That said, it is unlikely to make the grade simply because it has too much in common with the Tejas Mk1A. Also Sweden is a geopolitical lightweight & any strategic relationship will not bring significant benefit as compared with France, USA or even Russia. The French have practically won this already with the @SAFRAN engine technology co development offer and potential for Barracuda technology to flow into the Indian SSN program. Rest is purely bureaucratic niceties!

SAAB missed the bus when it declined to provide consulting for MK2.

[Prem Kumar]

If Rafale is the winner, why not cut to the chase and go for a G2G negotiation?

Heck, just combine it with the Rafale-M negotiation. Why waste time and then claim "swindling squadrons"?

If there is an actual MRFA RFP all over again, it will be a joke. What the heck was the purpose of MMRCA then?

Methinks the IAF, for whatever reasons, wants the Gripen. But the MoD is letting them know gently that its Rafale. But all this waltzing is costing us time & money

[Rakesh]

If Rafale is the winner, why not cut to the chase and go for a G2G negotiation?

Heck, just combine it with the Rafale-M negotiation. Why waste time and then claim "swindling squadrons"?

If there is an actual MRFA RFP all over again, it will be a joke. What the heck was the purpose of MMRCA then?

Methinks the IAF, for whatever reasons, wants the Gripen. But the MoD is letting them know gently that its Rafale. But all this waltzing is costing us time & money.

If you want to know who the winner of the MRFA is, then don't look at just the aircraft being offered. But rather, what of strategic value is coming with this MRFA contract? Strategic Value = Turbofan for AMCA. Therefore, do the process of elimination...

1) Which company/country can India partner with in a JV for the AMCA turbofan?
- France (Safran)
- UK (Rolls Royce)
- US (General Electric)

The Gripen E is powered by a GE F414 turbofan. What value can Sweden provide here? Gripen E is out. And Mother Russia is involved in a war in Ukraine. What value can they provide in a JV for a turbofan? The MiG-35 and Su-35 are also out. Because Sweden and Russia have nothing to provide, that leaves only US (F-21, F-15EX), UK (Typhoon) and France (Rafale).

2) Which company is currently under investigation by the CBI for allegations of corruption in the BAe Hawk deal?

- Rolls Royce of the United Kingdom.

So Typhoon is out. So now the list comes down to three aircraft --> US (F-21, F-15EX) and France (Rafale)

3) IAF is insisting on a local turbofan for the AMCA Mk2.

- The EPE variant of the GE F414 will not make the cut, as that would be a no-go for the IAF. They want a local turbofan and Air HQ will not accept an uprated F414 turbofan. So F-15EX and F-21 are also out, unless GE is willing to partner with GTRE to develop a 110kN turbofan. Unlikely.

Who is left? And NaMo's visit to France in July sealed that deal. An announcement will be made post the 2024 General Elections. With regards to your comment about "waltzing is costing us time and money", I point you to the recent comment from the CEO of Dassault ---> "With India, you have to be patient." There is no other way around this, other than playing the waiting game.

The JV for the AMCA turbofan is not going to be inexpensive. This is a decade long, multi-billion dollar investment. The only way to reduce that cost - via offsets - is to tie in strategic requirements with the 114 MRFA contract. India cannot afford a stand alone JV engine program with one country plus invest in a separate program for 114 MRFA with another country plus invest in a separate program for 26 MRCBF with yet another country.

One (Reliable) Country, One (Reliable) Vendor to check off multiple boxes. That is the end goal for the GoI.

The above are political considerations for the GoI and even the Indian Air Force. There are technical considerations which also favour Rafale (but can be hotly contested by the other OEMs), but that is a separate discussion and will not be applicable to this particular post of mine.

This is not a politics thread, but I will say this ---> Remember the desperation (by the opposition) to get NaMo charged with corruption in the first Rafale deal? This was part of the ultimate goal to eliminate Dassault (via blacklisting) from supplying fighter aircraft to the Indian Air Force. Once you remove Dassault from the picture, it is a clear path for the other Euro Canard (Typhoon) and the American birds. That did not happen. India's true enemy lives within her borders. India's opposition is infested with boot lickers.

[Rakesh]

See this joint (and official) press release from PM Modi's visit to France in July 2023.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 10688?s=20 ---> Biggest takeaway in the India-France joint communiqué: the 2 countries will co-develop a combat aircraft engine (for India’s AMCA). As I said before, in terms of substance, this goes further, deeper and way beyond any procurement deal. Unprecedented.

[Rakesh]

What was always known to everyone ----> the F-21 is not passing muster with the Indian Air Force.

Even as IAF moves in for 97 more Tejas, its eyes firmly set on MRFA but awaits govt signal
https://theprint.in/defence/even-as-iaf ... l/1798969/
11 Oct 2023

Rafale, F-15EX & the Gripen are the 3 main contenders with the front-runner being French Rafale fighter jets, 36 of which were inducted into the force under emergency procurement in 2016.

[Rakesh]

France Hopes to Best US in New India Fighter Race, Betting on Existing Rafale Sales, Tech Flexibility
https://thewire.in/security/france-us-f ... ech-rafale
12 Oct 2023

Today, Indian diplomats, security officials and analysts say it is less ‘arduous’ conducting materiel commerce with Paris than with Washington, as the former is more flexible and pragmatic than the latter, especially with regard to transferring hi-tech military knowhow and passing on source-codes that manage fighter weapon and flight control systems. The US, for its part, remains constrained by rigid export regulations in this regard and hidebound by personal political and diplomatic considerations over platform deployments. France, on the other hand, is more ‘relaxed’ on all these counts, displaying a Gallic savoir faire that strategically suits India, even if its equipment ends up being relatively more expensive.

[Rakesh]

French aviation magazine claiming that the Rafale (F4 variant in particular) has won the MRFA contest. They predicted the same for the MRCBF contest as well, with the Rafale M ending up as the winner over the F-18SH. Below is the article, albeit translated from French into English via Google Translate...so there are some quirky translations below, but you will get the gist

THE DASSAULT AVIATION RAFALE F4 MADE THE ARCH FAVORITE OF THE INDIAN MRFA COMPETITION
https://www.avionslegendaires.net/2023/ ... enne-mrfa/
12 Oct 2023

Even the English-speaking aviation media agree: the French plane is the darling of Indian decision-makers. Four days after Eric Trappier's trip to New Delhi the signals are now clearly green for the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 with the Indian Air Force. Of its original seven competitors only two are believed to still be competing, one from the United States and the second from Sweden . The MRFA program is also announced as a slap in the face to the American group Lockheed-Martin and its Russian competitor UAC.

But what exactly is this MRFA program? Called MMRCA 2.0 in the summer of 2015, in order to swallow the pill of the cancellation a few days earlier of the MMRCA program, for Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft , it constitutes the possibility for several international aircraft manufacturers to compete around a tempting promise: the supply of 114 multirole combat aircraft to India. Understanding that MMRCA 2.0 was a term that did not necessarily resonate with so-called manufacturers, the Indian Air Force transformed it last year into MRFA, for Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft. This doesn't change much at first glance except that it no longer necessarily raises a question of size and mass in the competing planes.

The manufacturers who competed were always the same: Boeing, Dassault Aviation, Eurofighter, Lockheed-Martin, Mikoyan, Saab, and Sukhoi. Very quickly, however, Indian public opinion, always so picky about weapons issues, noticed a major absence: the F-35A Lightning II. In fact, not believing that India had strong enough backs for it, the aircraft manufacturer Lockheed-Martin preferred the F-21A. It is in fact the good old F-16V Viper equipped with local avionics developed by the Tata group and promised to be 80% local machining. Except that fundamentally an F-16V Viper is nothing more or less than a General Dynamics F-16 Fighting Falcon revised and corrected with Lockheed-Martin style in order to prolong its marketing. In no case can it replace a 5th generation fighter like the F-35A in a competition.

As many Indian experts have pointed out, even if it means being interested in a light single-jet combat aircraft, as long as it is of a more recent design than the F-16. This is why the Saab JAS 39E/F Gripen remains in the competition while the Lockheed-Martin / Tata candidacy around the F-21A has more and more lead in the wing. The entry into service of the Swedish aircraft within the Força Aérea Brasileira also served as a demonstration of its real capabilities. At the same time, the Russian industrial group UAC seems in as bad a position as Lockheed-Martin. Its MiG-35 Fulcrum-F and Su-35 Flanker-E have not only failed to convince but also the delivery faults and delays in spare parts play greatly to their disadvantage. To Russia's great misfortune, the MRFA program falls at the same time as the war against Ukraine and its democratic sovereignty. As a result, UAC is paying the price for the sanctions voted by the Allies.

For Boeing the MRFA program is a double international confirmation. The first is that its F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is completely finished on export markets. The second that its F-15EX Eagle II is on the other hand perfectly designed to face the French Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 on these same export markets. The first Boeing fighter was eliminated while the second is still in the running. And by the admission of many experts, the Eagle II is today the only combat aircraft which on the MRFA program could make Eric Trappier and his teams doubt. However, the Rafale F4 has been the overwhelming favorite for two years on this program.

Ok the Indians like to keep the fun going in their competitions. In France, the people at Dassault Aviation know something about it. Their boss was not in New Delhi this week exclusively to talk about the future of the Rafale F4 with the Indian Air Force but also to refine the contract for twenty-six on-board machines intended for the Indian Navy and whose order was revealed on July 14 by Prime Minister Modi himself.

In fact the final confrontation between the Boeing F-15EX Eagle II and the Dassault Aviation Rafale F4 will take place, if of course it must take place, without the Saab JAS 39E/F Gripen. Because here too, in a very Indian logic, it is still in competition even though the Indian Air Force recently announced that it was no longer considering equipping itself with single-jet engines still equipped with Dassault Aviation Mirage 2000Is of French origin and currently receiving its indigenously designed and manufactured HAL Tejas Mk-1s. And Hindustan Aircraft Limited could well help, in its own way, Dassault Aviation to shut down Boeing once and for all on this contract. Indeed, if it was rumored just a few months ago that the Indian aircraft manufacturer would assemble the French twin-jet under local license, this rumor is now so omnipresent that one could almost say that it is being shouted. This is undoubtedly the key to success in India: not to underestimate the Indians and their industrial capacity. On a very personal level, I prefer to see Rafale F4s bearing the Indian roundel and manufactured under license by HAL than F-15EXs displaying the same Indian nationality markings and built in the United States. And yet I like the Eagle II. But not as much as the Rafale.

To this day the Indians say they want to move quickly. After a little over 8 years of competition we can only understand them too well. And clearly it is now said that the announcement of the winner will be made before the end of the calendar year 2023. For almost all Indian aeronautical, defense and financial media it is clear that the champagne* will flow freely on the side of Saint-Cloud and Mérignac.

Obviously something to follow.

[Rakesh]

The F-15EX is one of the three leading contenders - the other two being the Rafale and Gripen E - in the MRFA contest.

As F-15EX price tags rise, Boeing hunts for ways to control costs
https://www.defenseone.com/business/202 ... ts/391786/
03 Nov 2023

https://x.com/alexgarcialonso/status/17 ... 30979?s=20 ---> "The new data shows the F-15EX to cost more than the Air Force is paying for its F-35s (...) the per-plane price is expected to be $97 million in Lot 3 and $94 million in Lot 4. The cost of each F-35A in production lots 15 through 17 is $82.5 million."

[AkshaySG]

Do we just have alternatives for the sake of it?.. Because I do not see by what logic Gripen and F-15 can both be contenders for the same competition

At least in the original MMRCA Typhoon and Rafale were somewhat similar.

[Rakesh]

Do we just have alternatives for the sake of it?.. Because I do not see by what logic Gripen and F-15 can both be contenders for the same competition

At least in the original MMRCA Typhoon and Rafale were somewhat similar.

If you are looking for logic in the MRFA contest, I am sorry to say...but you are not going to find any.

What started out as a proposal for a Mirage 2000 production line in India (early 2000s) has morphed into a circus show with multiple acts (the MMRCA contest, the SE contest and now the MRFA contest). In the 2+ decades since, a lot has changed. License production of 126 Mirage 2000s was proposed to replace the large and aging MiG-21 fleet in the IAF. That never materialized and countless lives have been lost operating aircraft that were not ideal. The only silver lining in this sordid saga - in 2023 - is that the Tejas Mk1A is set to take over the role of replacing the large (and now almost retired) MiG-21 fleet in two tranches - 83 airframes (confirmed) and another 97 airframes (planned).

Air HQ has also realized that license production of a phoren fighter is fraught with multiple pitfalls - budgets, political, technical and even geopolitical - that need to be overcome. That is easier said than done in the topsy turvy political world of modern India. Multiple agendas are being pushed by various factions, both within and outside the country. What was initially designed to address the acute squadron shortage has now morphed into a contest that requires the IAF to acquire a fighter aircraft that can prevail over what the PLAAF is inducting. That dramatically increases the cost and complexity of the overall deal, while forcing Air HQ to reduce the numbers which will eventually be acquired.

IMVHO, the contest is really between two main contenders - the F-15EX and the Rafale F4. Rest are there (including the Gripen E) solely to provide the appearance of the MRFA acquisition being a "fair" contest. None of the others will make the cut. The IAF wants a twin-engine, LO aircraft that can break down the door, conduct precision strike and combined with a high degree of survivability. With the Safran-GTRE JV venture for a 110kN turbofan + the deal for the Rafale M for the Indian Navy, my guess is that it will be the Rafale that will win again.

In addition, this line of thinking ---> "42 squadrons is required for full spectrum of operations..." is soon going to change with unmanned aircraft/drones taking over many of the dangerous strike roles. What was insurmountable for India, is now achievable. And I say this without any jingoism. It will become a necessity when the PLAAF (and even the PAF) starts adopting this capability into her own fleets. And necessity is the mother of invention. HAL already has a capable program in the works i.e. Combat Air Teaming System. The IAF will hover around ~35 "manned" squadrons for the forseeable future with a sizeable fleet of unmanned aircraft/drones.

P.S. With the Super Sukhoi upgrade on the anvil, what purpose will the F-15EX really serve?

[Cain Marko]

I guess the Russians have gotten wind of the F-15EX becoming a "major contender", and have now upped the ante by offering the Su-57...the circus goes on.

[Rakesh]

I guess the Russians have gotten wind of the F-15EX becoming a "major contender", and have now upped the ante by offering the Su-57...the circus goes on.

Source?

[Pratyush]

The logical question to ask would be --> why procure the F-15EX? When a Super Su-30MKI can be created using the AL-41 and the latest Indian avionics?

The technology developed for the new aircraft can easily feed the AMCA program as well.

[Rakesh]

Since this is a comedy thread, here is "reportedly" the latest turn of events in this comedy....

Twitter is abuzz with rumours that Air HQ wants to scrap the MRFA thread in favour of 90 Rafale F4s with an option for another 36 more.

Just take it as comedy value onlee This is like an Abbas–Mustan Bollywood thriller. The twists and turns this story plot takes!

[rajsunder]

Saw one of the videos of major gaurav arya, even he has be bagged by the import lobby. He was asking for F-21 import, saying GOI has enough money.

[rajkumar]

Saw one of the videos of major gaurav arya, even he has be bagged by the import lobby. He was asking for F-21 import, saying GOI has enough money.

Unfortunately Major Arya is in danger of going the way of Col Shukla

[Rakesh]

Some humour is always necessary, every now and then. Read the twitter replies to a simple tweet....

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1806175415901601918 ---> With Naval pricing sorted, next is MRFA? At least indicators suggest so.
^^^^
https://x.com/Ranjeet36477649/status/18 ... 8098023794 ---> No! F-15EX-II we must select under MRFA! We can buy Rafales in small batches to take the tally to 90 fighters, as it is a costly special mission fighter. Can't be used as war wastage platform!

https://x.com/Manasyaduvanshi/status/18 ... 5482826922 ---> Bsdk, Boeing can’t even make a decent passenger aircraft. Astronauts are stuck in space due to their fault.

https://x.com/kachra_seth123/status/1806246143283581308 ---> Bhag Yaha Se

[maitya]

Since this is a comedy thread, here is "reportedly" the latest turn of events in this comedy....

Twitter is abuzz with rumours that Air HQ wants to scrap the MRFA thread in favour of 90 Rafale F4s with an option for another 36 more.

Just take it as comedy value onlee This is like an Abbas–Mustan Bollywood thriller. The twists and turns this story plot takes!

Well, this becomes a serious proposition, as long as these 90 includes the 26M versions ... and they are manufactured in India.

[maitya]

The logical question to ask would be --> why procure the F-15EX? When a Super Su-30MKI can be created using the AL-41 and the latest Indian avionics?

The technology developed for the new aircraft can easily feed the AMCA program as well.

Pratyushji, as far as the Super Su-30MKI upgrade program is concerned, for IAF, I think the AL-41 boat has long sailed, and only Saturn AL-51F/Izdeliye-30, would be able to rekindle that interest.
After all, it was not for nothing, IAF was insistent on some kind of participation to the Izdeliya-30 program, as a pre-condition of sorts, to consider a twin-seater version of Su-57, if at all.

Do note, Izdeliya-30 is 5th gen (or atleast close to 5th gen) TF initiative, with "ceramic" usage* in turbines, flat-nozzles etc - mostly shrouded in secrecy, but this one is as cutting edge as it gets.

*most probably, ceramic matrix composite (CMC) turbine blades and maybe even vanes.

[Rakesh]

Well, this becomes a serious proposition, as long as these 90 includes the 26M versions ... and they are manufactured in India.

90 + 26. But the number will be higher, as the MRFA contract itself states 114 aircraft for the IAF alone.

Dassault requires a minimum order of 100 aircraft to transfer the production (i.e. screwdrivergiri) line from Merignac to Nagpur. Anything less than 100, will not work. Eventually the production line will handle deliveries even for international Rafale customers (i.e. UAE and Indonesia). Dassault's plan is to have two lines (one at Merignac and a second one, which will be paid for by an international customer i.e. India). They need two lines to handle the order-book bonanza that has fallen into Dassault's lap. The second line will eventually transition to a MROU line, post production. The first line at Merignac will eventually transition to the FCAS (France's sixth generation fighter) program.

[Rakesh]

Pratyushji, as far as the Super Su-30MKI upgrade program is concerned, for IAF, I think the AL-41 boat has long sailed, and only Saturn AL-51F/Izdeliye-30, would be able to rekindle that interest.
After all, it was not for nothing, IAF was insistent on some kind of participation to the Izdeliya-30 program, as a pre-condition of sorts, to consider a twin-seater version of Su-57, if at all.

Do note, Izdeliya-30 is 5th gen (or atleast close to 5th gen) TF initiative, with "ceramic" usage* in turbines, flat-nozzles etc - mostly shrouded in secrecy, but this one is as cutting edge as it gets.

*most probably, ceramic matrix composite (CMC) turbine blades and maybe even vanes.

NaMo is visiting Russia (reportedly next month) and one of the items on the agenda is supposedly the Izd-30. Remains to be seen if that rumour turns out to be true. Izd-30 will likely come as a quid-pro-quo for Su-57. The Russians are fully aware that they have lost the MRFA contest with the MiG-35 and Su-35 offers, so they are trying to win it by entering through the back door. So a repeat of the 1980s saga of Mirage 2000 and MiG-29s. I hope not.

Lets hope the PMO and Air HQ does not get starry eyed at the Russian offer and keep a laser vision focus on the AMCA and her turbofan program.

VIDEO: https://x.com/sidhant/status/1806647045333328100 ---> "Preparing for next India Russia summit", MEA on PM Modi's likely visit to Russia.

[maitya]

NaMo is visiting Russia (reportedly next month) and one of the items on the agenda is supposedly the Izd-30. Remains to be seen if that rumour turns out to be true. Izd-30 will likely come as a quid-pro-quo for Su-57. The Russians are fully aware that they have lost the MRFA contest with the MiG-35 and Su-35 offers, so they are trying to win it by entering through the back door. So a repeat of the 1980s saga of Mirage 2000 and MiG-29s. I hope not.

Lets hope the PMO and Air HQ does not get starry eyed at the Russian offer and keep a laser vision focus on the AMCA and her turbofan program.

VIDEO: https://x.com/sidhant/status/1806647045333328100 ---> "Preparing for next India Russia summit", MEA on PM Modi's likely visit to Russia.

Rakeshji, it has always baffled me, as to how is the Su-57 program is in direct competition with our AMCA program.

IMVHO, Su-57 is the heavier Su-30 class 5th-gen-replacement class, while AMCA is squarely aimed at medium-weight category aka M2K/MiG29/LCA Mk2 5th-gen-replacement - so both will eventually be required.

Of course, once AMCA program gets going, the indigenous 5th-gen solution for the Su-30 class replacement is next logical iteration - I get that part. And a Super Su-30 program should enable the current platforms to shoulder on till then ...

[Manish_P]

...
Rakeshji, it has always baffled me, as to how is the Su-57 program is in direct competition with our AMCA program.
...

For aam junta/jingos '5th gen' is the silver bullet which kills all sizes of werewolves, vampires et al...

So F22 == F35 == Su 57 == J20 == AMCA

That bullets themselves come in different calibers is not considered important

[Rakesh]

...

Saar, which Babu will understand the difference?

For the Babu, the Su-57 = AMCA = F-22 = Su-75 = F-35. All same-to-same onlee. Thank goodness China is our enemy, otherwise the Babu will ask for J-20 or J-31, as a cheaper alternative to their western counterparts. Babu will say, “Stealth is stealth, regardless of whether it comes from China, Russia or the West.”

Why to waste money on developing our own, when you can just buy it! What Phor Taking Tension?

Expand thinking beyond weight classes i.e. heavy, medium, light, etc. This is what hamstrings the IAF every time. As Cybaru always says, internal fuel is the key. The greater the internal fuel + a capable & viable weapons payload + VLO translates to air dominance. Or as the IAF puts it ---> See First, Shoot First, Kill First. At that point....the significance of weight class will reduce.

Manned bomb trucks (i.e. Su-30MKI, F-15EX, etc) will give way to VLO motherships sending in VLO-UCAVs into highly contested airspace to execute missions i.e. SEAD/DEAD, bombing of hardened shelters and airfields, destruction of high value targets, etc.

[Manish_P]

... Or as the IAF puts it ---> See First, Shoot First, Kill First. At that point....the significance of weight class will reduce....

Respectfully Admiral, with the IAF there is a slight variation of the chain - 'See First, Assess Fast, Shoot to Kill'

That's why the Su30s didn't waste missiles firing at the fleeing F-16s at extreme range

[Aditya_V]

Most of decision makers seem to be someone's son or daughter, who have nothing in life and have trader, bargaining mentality

[Rakesh]

This is interesting news...

Dassault Aviation decides to go solo, to set up own maintenance facility in India without Reliance
https://theprint.in/defence/dassault-av ... e/2156933/
02 July 2024

[Pratyush]

I thought that Dassault had taken over the 100 percent shares of the Nagpur JV from Reliance. That was sometime ago.

Or this is a seperate operation.

[Rakesh]

The Nagpur JV was for assembling parts for the Dassault Falcon, the business executive jet that Dassault makes and some parts for the Rafale (hard point pylons being one of them). Dassault had indeed acquired 100% ownership of that from Reliance.

The above news is for the maintenance facility i.e. MROU (Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul and Upgrade) that Dassault is setting up for the Rafale, also at Nagpur. I alluded to this earlier. See below. The only difference being that Dassault is doing this in reverse. They are setting up all the building blocks for the MRFA contract. And this MROU line (and production line) will serve not just India, but international customers as well.

Dassault requires a minimum order of 100 aircraft to transfer the production (i.e. screwdrivergiri) line from Merignac to Nagpur. Anything less than 100, will not work. Eventually the production line will handle deliveries even for international Rafale customers (i.e. UAE and Indonesia). Dassault's plan is to have two lines (one at Merignac and a second one, which will be paid for by an international customer i.e. India). They need two lines to handle the order-book bonanza that has fallen into Dassault's lap. The second line will eventually transition to a MROU line, post production. The first line at Merignac will eventually transition to the FCAS (France's sixth generation fighter) program.

[Cain Marko]

NaMo is visiting Russia (reportedly next month) and one of the items on the agenda is supposedly the Izd-30. Remains to be seen if that rumour turns out to be true. Izd-30 will likely come as a quid-pro-quo for Su-57. The Russians are fully aware that they have lost the MRFA contest with the MiG-35 and Su-35 offers, so they are trying to win it by entering through the back door. So a repeat of the 1980s saga of Mirage 2000 and MiG-29s. I hope not.

Lets hope the PMO and Air HQ does not get starry eyed at the Russian offer and keep a laser vision focus on the AMCA and her turbofan program.

VIDEO: https://x.com/sidhant/status/1806647045333328100 ---> "Preparing for next India Russia summit", MEA on PM Modi's likely visit to Russia.

I was saying this for some time. The iaf was waiting for the izd30 to come along and they would use it for the mki, the bird needs the power to maintain air dominance.

Frankly, I don't think it would be a bad idea to get 36 x 5 gen type. Either f35 or the pakfa. Until the AMCA comes along, which won't be before 2040.

My guess is that as China debugs and ramps up deployment of j20, it will find its way close to the border and likely into PAF as well. Not to mention s400 clones. Probably in next 5 years. IAF will feel the heat and India will need a serious offensive qualitative edge then, the raffle won't cut it.

My guess (and preference) is the f35, but even a mature, well tested pakfa will do.

At this late stage, I'd rather see just another 36 raffle, extra m2ks, and 36 gen 5 silver bullets to boost numbers and quality.

[Rakesh]

The above news is for the maintenance facility i.e. MROU (Maintenance, Repair, Overhaul and Upgrade) that Dassault is setting up for the Rafale, also at Nagpur.

I was incorrect. The MROU facility is near Jewar airport, Uttar Pradesh and not at Nagpur, Maharashtra.

My apologies. The Print news article also mentioned it, but I missed it.

Rafale’s India operations get a strategic push; Dassault establishes maintenance facility near Jewar Airport
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 422777.cms
02 July 2024

Synopsis

Dassault Aviation is advancing plans to establish a Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) facility near Jewar International Airport for India’s Mirage 2000 and Rafale fighters. This move supports India's aspiration to locally manufacture the latest Rafale versions under the "Make in India" initiative. Engine maker Safran SA also intends to set up an MRO facility for Rafale engines in Hyderabad, aiming for operations by 2025 and potential local production of M-88 engines. These developments are crucial as India seeks to bolster its defense capabilities amidst regional security challenges, including from China's expanding military presence.

Dassault Aviation is in the process of acquiring land near Jewar International Airport to set up a Maintenance, Repair, and Overhaul (MRO) facility for India’s Mirage 2000 and Rafale fighters as told to Hindustan Times. This step will pave the way for local manufacturing of the latest Rafale versions to fulfill the IAF's long-term requirement of approximately 100 twin-engine multi-role fighters over the next two decades, according to sources familiar with the matter.

"Make in India" Initiative with Local Production

Despite the political changes in France, the Emmanuel Macron government and Dassault Aviation have committed to manufacturing Rafale fighters in
India under the "Make in India" initiative. This includes using locally sourced components to meet the IAF's demand. Additionally, engine maker Safran is planning an MRO facility for Rafale engines in Hyderabad, expected to be operational by 2025. Safran has also indicated readiness to manufacture M-88 engines in India if there is a substantial order from the IAF.

Strategic Needs and Benefits for India

With HAL's LCA Mark II, which will replace the Mirage 2000, not expected to be ready until the middle of the next decade, Rafale fighters will address India's immediate needs and potentially allow for exports. Dassault has started sourcing titanium parts from Indian companies and plans to expand its local supply chain. This manufacturing move is seen as a win-win for both nations, given Dassault's backlog of approximately 300 fighter orders from countries like Croatia, Greece, Serbia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE, and Indonesia.

Government's New Procurement Policy

The Indian government has shifted its defense procurement policy to acquire 114 Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) only from vendors willing to establish manufacturing units in India, including technology transfer and full production in collaboration with local partners. This policy shift, while expected to delay the MRFA acquisition, is aimed at strengthening India's defense manufacturing capabilities.

Global Competition for Indian Defense Contracts

The MRFA deal, valued at approximately $20 billion, is one of the world's largest defense contracts. Competitors include Dassault’s Rafale, Boeing’s
Super Hornet F/A-18, SAAB’s Gripen, Lockheed Martin’s F-21, Russian MiG-35 and the Eurofighter Typhoon.

Existing Infrastructure and Future Plans

India's Air Force currently operates 36 Rafale fighters equipped with Hammer and SCALP missiles, and the Navy is negotiating the price for 26 Maritime Strike Rafales for the INS Vikrant aircraft carrier. India already has maintenance depots, repair facilities, and training simulators for Rafales at the Ambala air base. The Modi government values France's stable licensing policy, which reassures long-term commitments similar to Russia's historical aircraft supplies to India since 1953. Safran is also prepared to enter a joint venture with an Indian company to manufacture engines for Indian Multi-Role Helicopters (IMRH), reducing dependency on third countries. With increasing aggression from China, equipped with its fifth-generation J-20 fighters and expanding force levels, India needs to bolster its Air Force. “India can ill afford to further delay the acquisition of advanced multi-role fighters as the Chinese challenge will increase by the day,” said a national security planner in the HT report.

Boost from GE Aerospace Collaboration

The Indian government has been encouraged by its success in getting US company GE Aerospace Defence and Systems to produce fighter jet engines in India in collaboration with state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL).According to a deal signed during Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s recent visit to the US, GE will transfer 80% of the technology for its F414 jet engines, which will power the Mk2 version of India’s indigenously developed Light Combat Aircraft.

Increased FDI in Defense Sector

To further boost its defense manufacturing capabilities, the Indian government has increased the Foreign Direct Investment (FDI) sectoral limitin defense to 74%. This move aims to attract more foreign investments and make India a hub for defense manufacturing. India's strategic decision to bolster its defense capabilities through local manufacturing of Rafale fighters aligns with its "Make in India" initiative. This move not only meets the IAF's long-term needs but also positions India as a potential exporter of advanced fighters, enhancing its strategic and economic standing globally.

[Rakesh]

I was saying this for some time. The iaf was waiting for the izd30 to come along and they would use it for the mki, the bird needs the power to maintain air dominance.

Frankly, I don't think it would be a bad idea to get 36 x 5 gen type. Either f35 or the pakfa. Until the AMCA comes along, which won't be before 2040.

My guess is that as China debugs and ramps up deployment of j20, it will find its way close to the border and likely into PAF as well. Not to mention s400 clones. Probably in next 5 years. IAF will feel the heat and India will need a serious offensive qualitative edge then, the raffle won't cut it.

My guess (and preference) is the f35, but even a mature, well tested pakfa will do.

At this late stage, I'd rather see just another 36 raffle, extra m2ks, and 36 gen 5 silver bullets to boost numbers and quality.

The Russians will not part with the turbofan, without a contract for the Su-57. So if Rambha (Su-30MKI) is going to revamp the thunder in her thighs via the Izd-30 turbofan, then Rambha's daughter (Su-57 aka Sasha) will also come.

It would be a coup if India's pulls this off! F414 production agreement is nearing completion. If Dassault wins the MRFA contest, then India will be doing screwdriverigiri on the M88 as well (see the ToI article above). And if the Izd-30 offer is indeed true, India could be doing assembly on that as well.

F414 + M88 + Izd-30....only in India

...

Maitya-ji: Any inputs?

[Rakesh]

And this MROU line (and production line) will serve not just India, but international customers as well.

Look who came visiting to New Delhi and see who they are meeting ---> viewtopic.php?p=2624284#p2624284

And they are future operators of the Rafale fighter and the Scorpene submarine.

[Rakesh]

Rafale’s Make-in-India plans get shot in the arm
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 8-amp.html
02 July 2024

French Aviation major Dassault Aviation SA is in the process of acquiring land near Jewar international airport for a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility for India’s Mirage 2000 and Rafale fighters, setting the stage for the local manufacturing of latest versions of Rafale fighters in the country to meet the Indian Air Force’s long-pending requirement of around 100 twin-engine multi-role fighters that will be needed over the next two decades, according to two people familiar with the matter.

Notwithstanding the political ferment in France – the French far-right front National Rally won the first round of voting for the National Assembly, with 33% of the votes, ahead of the ruling coalition’s 20% – the Emmanuel Macron government and Dassault have offered in writing to manufacture Rafale fighters in India under the “Make in India” rubric with locally sourced components to meet IAF’s demand, the two people added, asking not to be named. This comes even as engine maker Safran SA is setting up a MRO facility to handle Rafale fighter engines (if numbers are enough) at Hyderabad adjacent to the company’s LEAP engine facility for civilian aircraft, which will be ready by 2025. Safran, the people added, has conveyed that if there is a Rafale order for IAF, it is willing to manufacture the M-88 engines in India.

Given that HAL’s LCA Mark II with GE-414 engines, which will replace the Mirage 2000, will not be ready before the middle of the next decade, the Rafale fighter will not only meet India’s requirement but also allow India to export the same fighters to third countries. Dassault has already started sourcing titanium parts from companies in India for manufacture Rafale fighters and plans to add more local vendors to the supply chain list. According to the two people, the manufacture of Rafale fighters in India is a win-win for both close allies as Dassault already has some 300 fighter orders in hand from Croatia, Greece, Serbia, Egypt, Qatar, UAE and Indonesia and has no capacity to manufacture extra planes for India. The company is also in talks with Saudi Arabia for supply of fighters and the French Air Force has asked it for 42 more Rafales.

IAF is already operating 36 Rafale fighters with Hammer and SCALP missiles with the Indian Navy currently involved in price negotiations for 26 Maritime Strike Rafales for the INS Vikrant aircraft carrier. India already has base maintenance depots, repairs, training and simulators for Rafales in its Ambala air base. Given the gestation period for fighters and engines is over decades, the Modi government has also taken reassurance from France’s stable licensing policy which will ensure there is no hiccup -- like Russia, France has been supplying aircraft to India since the Toofani fighter in 1953. The people added that Safran is also ready for a joint venture with an Indian company for manufacture of engines for Indian Multi-Role Helicopters (IMRH) so that India does not have to look for a third country for urgent supplies.

With the Chinese PLA in an aggressive mood on the land and sea with India and equipped with its own fifth generation J-20 fighters, the Indian Air Force needs to be bolstered as its force levels are below its projected requirement. China has developed the WS-15 engine, reverse engineering it from the Russian AL-31, and is rapidly expanding its force levels on land, air and sea. “India can ill afford to further delay the acquisition of advanced multi-role fighters as the Chinese challenge will increase by the day,” said a national security planner.

[Rakesh]

This news article is stating that the Indonesian Rafales will also be serviced at Jewar, UP.

Dassault Aviation decides to go solo, to set up own maintenance facility in India without Reliance
https://theprint.in/defence/dassault-av ... 56933/?amp
02 July 2024

French defence major Dassault Aviation has filed an application with the Indian government to set up a maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility near Jewar international airport in Uttar Pradesh to cater to not just India’s fleet of Mirage 2000s and Rafale fighter jets, but also that of Indonesia.

[R Charan]

USAF's Battle-Tested F-15E to Demonstrate Relevance in Modern Warfare for IAF, Eyeing India's MRFA Tender
https://defence.in/threads/usafs-battle ... nder.8646/
26 July 2024

The upcoming multinational air exercise Tarang Shakti, scheduled for August 2024, is set to be a significant event in the global defence landscape.

The participation of the United States Air Force (USAF) with its F-15E Strike Eagle fighter aircraft holds particular relevance for India, given Boeing's proposal of the F-15EX, an advanced variant, for the Indian Air Force's (IAF) Multi-Role Fighter Aircraft (MRFA) tender.

[Kartik]

X-Post from the Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022 thread...

There is a way out, put pressure on the US and French by teasing a purchase of the su57. Frankly, i prefer it to the raffle.

Push the French to offer cheaper raffles, push the US to offer cheaper f35. Neither of them will be able to oblige.

Buy the Felon aka Su 57MKI. make sure to get the izd engines with full and deep know how/why.

Too early to know the variables, but the Su-57 will come IMVHO.

AMCA will not come on time.

Given HAL's track record (and that of ADA as well) I too am fairly certain that AMCA will not come within the timelines that are being floated around.

But Su-57, that is extremely unlikely as well. That would commit the IAF to another new type, when it is hankering for more Rafales/MRFA. Plus, the Su-57E is likely to not be acceptable as is, will need a lot of time to be matured and most likely will come with bugs/issues that the IAF will have to deal with, as we've seen with the Su-30MKI and MiG-29K.

[maitya]

Too early to know the variables, but the Su-57 will come IMVHO.

AMCA will not come on time.

Given HAL's track record (and that of ADA as well) I too am fairly certain that AMCA will not come within the timelines that are being floated around.

But Su-57, that is extremely unlikely as well. That would commit the IAF to another new type, when it is hankering for more Rafales/MRFA. Plus, the Su-57E is likely to not be acceptable as is, will need a lot of time to be matured and most likely will come with bugs/issues that the IAF will have to deal with, as we've seen with the Su-30MKI and MiG-29K.

Kartikji, given that the canard has already been floated (as always to justify more imports) wrt PAF pilots training with PLA on J-31/FC-31, some sort of knee-jerk (and obviously obscenely costly) stealth-fighter procurement is now inevitable - not different from the MiG-29 procurement of the late-80s/early-90s.

This is in the very DNA of IAF/MoD, it won't go away, period.

Question is what is this platform?

1) Either F-22/F-35, which are not available for sale, but leasing option (of in-use/used platforms) is still there.
Of course, there'll be 0 operational autonomy wrt them, but then who cares - as long as it is a shiny imported toy, these small things like operational autonomy etc can (and will be) be passed-over.
Betw justification of surrendering ops autonomy etc, via the leasing mode, is already there (the deployed S-400 bogie) - so maybe 36 (2 Sqns) is that magic number, and the Opex of these will bleed IAF white - but then again, who cares.

OR

2) Su-57 will be the only other alternative - 2-seater FGFA will have to given a pass-by, in that case (and so would the logic of multiplicity of platforms etc).
Plus, maybe as a deal sweetener, mother Russia will throw us the Lic mfg of Izdeliya-30/AL-51 bone (in lines of AL-31F of late 90s deal).
Question is what vol would mollify mother Russia to do that, nothing less than a 50-odd would suffice, I think (similar to the 1996 deal, with all 50 would be Su-57, similar to the initial batches of Su-30K).

Let's see ...