Design your own fighter

[vasu raya]

Ah many thanks Indranil, so an amphibious AEW is indeed a possibility. SAGAR with ANN based learning of control in different sea conditions, seems novel and rightly patented it.

Though, using Sponsons may not be entirely inefficient,



those folding wing tips can be rigged with floats and may not have more drag than the wing tip mounted Jammers found on say the Su-30. The extension also increases the aspect ratio of the wing.

Ultimate goal is being able to operate in higher sea states with more endurance.

[Indranil]

Of course an amphibious AEW is possible. Whether it is worth it is the question. I contend that operationally it is not. I will rest my case here.

[vasu raya]

IAF is conducting trials to land its fighters on highways and searching for more of these usable strips. An AEWC wanting to keep closer to the conflict area to improve its on station time wouldn't have that option. An amphibious version can use water bodies for such purpose and no amount of missile attacks can deter that.

And if refueling can be done using Autonomous Under Water vehicles maybe, just maybe you have reduced AEWC dependency on the refueler fleet.

Operating on foreign airspace/waters is a possibility without the whole security detail like Khan provides to its assets

The proposition to shift to an unmanned version is always there as the risk threshold goes higher and good to know that the Ground Exploitation Station - GES named Meghdoot already exists.

Exports to island nations which is what most of far east has for their surveillance needs.

Let HAL get the aircraft out first and not play catch up with China

[Arun.prabhu]

Cessna Skyhawk as base. Or even a smaller aircraft that has good loiter time and can carry maybe 500kgs max of ordinance. On top of which, add IRST, autonomous controls to land, takeoff and patrol a given sector, communications to share targeting data (a luxury and not necessary), IFF to query identity before engagement and one or two AAMs.

Advantages:
1. Whole package would probably be cheaper than 10 million dollars. Can be ordered in bulk. Wouldn't hurt if you lose a few.
2. Faster turnaround time. Propeller engine, after all.
3. Easy to replace loses. Far easier and faster to build one of these than a modern high performance jet. Hell, instead of metal and composites, we could even use cloth material or wood as was the case in yesteryears.
4. Greater freedom of action. With increased numbers, you can patrol more, you can meet attacks from multiple axis, your tactical options go way up.

I predict my fleet will take horrendous loses, which I can easily replace and will absolutely ****** up any fleet of modern fighters that dare challenge me. And even with all those horrendous loses, I'll come out ahead because at end of day, my loses would be a fraction of my enemy's in terms of dollars and he'd have no fleet while I can replace mine easily.

[Cain Marko]

What I would really like to see is a twin engined LCA based on Snecma-Kaveri/404 injun as a candidate for the IN's new requirement for twin engined bird. Since Mk1 and probably Mk2 are never going to fit their needs, this would be a fitting reply to both Navy and Airforce. Nothing too fancy for first iteration, just a bigger LCA Navy (with levcons), empty weight around 10.5-11 tons, 5 tons internal fuel, 11 hard points (7 tons payload).

As a more advanced variant - recessed weapon stations (for 6 AAMS), IRST, and 360 deg optical sensors, X and L band AESA, cheek arrays,

The point of the entire exercise should be to make it available for product super fast. Like in 9-10 years. A precursor to the AMCA.

[Cosmo_R]

..How do you propose HAL develops an UAV to land on rolling seas?

Apart from the tractor beam which is next year's investment theme in SV VC circles, I would say that if we can contemplate driverless cars in urban areas, I think we can certainly visualize how a carrier/ac real time handshake might work for UCAVs landing on moving ships.

There are many examples: today, an automatic shifting car is faster (even on the super cars) off track in its shifts than the manual one operated by the most experienced driver. ABS systems make it possible to brake quickly and safely by pumping the brakes so quickly and as needed in ways a human could not and who would lock the them if he tried to do so.

If we can figure out 104 sequenced insertions of satellites in the exosphere, I would bet that if it came to being a huge priority, it can be done. The obstacles are not going to be as much technical as naval aviation types rejecting potential obsolescence. The USAF insisted on qualified pilots driving predators from a desk in Nevada when pimply teenagers playing warcraft in their parents' basements could have been as effective.

[Indranil]

They are not the same problem. I work in the field of pattern recognition. So can tell you with some authority. The stability of the auto driven car is never in question.

Landing a large UAV on a carrier deck last year was a landmark event. I am sure it will happen more regularly in 10 years time and may be more frequently than not in another 10. But right now it is a big challenge.

[brar_w]

Landing a large UAV on a carrier deck last year was a landmark event.

Time flies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc2k6G8LuqY

[Cosmo_R]

Landing a large UAV on a carrier deck last year was a landmark event.

Time flies

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rc2k6G8LuqY

Yeah! I know, we tried it back it in ought 8 and it did not work but these crazy kids they don't know what can't be done so they succeed.

We can get pretty rigid in our tropes but here's the "good news"

http://www.snopes.com/science/bumblebees.asp

OK maybe HAL can't do it. But to delineate an impenetrable barrier between what we do now and what can be done is to relegate ourselves into the dustbin of history and evolution.

We can fly, iron ships can float, we can have 'crystal radios' that broadcast, bandwidth that is way beyond the ISDN (It still does nothing at a lofty 128KBs) and so on.

FWIW , 10 years from now planes will land driverless on land runways

[NRao]

Additives and printing various parts, in this case the SuperDraco engines for the Dragon space capsule from SapeX:

Manufacturing SuperDraco. The Wiki has a number of cool links.

One thing that caught my attention was that the first print was in 2013. Expected to fly in 2018. That is a turn around of 5 years for a space application.

Good time for India, IMHO, to start work on various parts. With a savings on weight it would be a great blessing.

Hope they are able to print the LCA's landing gear.

[JayS]

Additives and printing various parts, in this case the SuperDraco engines for the Dragon space capsule from SapeX:

Manufacturing SuperDraco. The Wiki has a number of cool links.

One thing that caught my attention was that the first print was in 2013. Expected to fly in 2018. That is a turn around of 5 years for a space application.

Good time for India, IMHO, to start work on various parts. With a savings on weight it would be a great blessing.

Hope they are able to print the LCA's landing gear.

Do not expect 3D printing in critical parts such as LG. It will take atleast a decade or two for OEMs to be able to have enough confidence that they can convince the certification agencies for passing off of 3D printed prts on critical locations. Parts like LG will be in the last stage to get 3D printed. Composites have only recently found place in primary structures after decades of background work. And still the design methodology is primitive and overly conservation. 3D printing will have to get through the same cycle.

Currently the focus as far as 3D printing is concerned is the parts which are intricate in shapes and thus have high Buy-to-fly ratio with conventional manufacturing. And these are generally non-critical parts.

Agree on need for India to invest heavily on 3D manufacturing. It one of those enabler tech which can let us leapfrong many steps in multiple technology areas and take a short cut to the state of the art. We need to see machine tool manufacturing and hi fidelity simulation software capability at the industry level while focus on material characterisation and improvement on existing printing methods at academic level. But as usual we are no where on the scene.

[SaiK]

Has anyone done triple engine fighter jet? say the main center one with high thrust low BPR and side two lower thrust, high BPR with TVC?

I doubt SR71 has a central engine.. or does it?

[Aditya_V]

SR71 did not have a Central engine but had 2 Buick AG330 Wild cat V8 IC engines, 401 Cubic Inches, approx 6.5 Liter engines. These were in cart's which would push each engine up to 3200 RPM and then disengage and be moved away fromt he aircraft.

[Philip]

Gents, why have we all forgotten about the naval Jag that was being touted at one time by SEPECAT? With the upgrades, the aircraft has good strike capability, overwing AAMs , can carry 2 anti-ship Harpoon/ Harpoonski ASMs- maybe BMOS-NG in the future too. The design exists so it should not be too difficult to develop the same twin-engined bird in quick time.Why not give it a go? Help from either BAe or Dassault should not be difficult.

Just ckd. ,some wing strengthening- new wing and undercarriage was reqd. ,but the French never got round to modifying the sole prototype of the M variant.However, a report on UK experience says that IAF Jags "sank" a USN carrier in exercises..

[Indranil]

^^^ To what end?

[Philip]

A twin-engined bird , better survivability than the NLCA.

[Indranil]

And is the survivability of LCA in question?

In contrast, how many Mig-29s have gone down in the Syria campaign (kind of on their own)? By the way, there are not too many MiG-29ks around. So, the survivability of MiG-29ks is very low in sustained combat. And that is not a surprise to me, given IN’s experience. I will not elaborate further.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Gents, why have we all forgotten about the naval Jag that was being touted at one time by SEPECAT? With the upgrades, the aircraft has good strike capability, overwing AAMs , can carry 2 anti-ship Harpoon/ Harpoonski ASMs- maybe BMOS-NG in the future too. The design exists so it should not be too difficult to develop the same twin-engined bird in quick time.Why not give it a go? Help from either BAe or Dassault should not be difficult.

Just ckd. ,some wing strengthening- new wing and undercarriage was reqd. ,but the French never got round to modifying the sole prototype of the M variant.However, a report on UK experience says that IAF Jags "sank" a USN carrier in exercises..

Sir, it won't be that easy.

• India is the only operator right now.
• Production was stopped in 1981. Setting up supply chain and logistics will be difficult.
• The Adour engine was found insufficient and the IAF decided to upgrade enginewith the Honeywell/ITEC F124 (about 15 to 40% higher thrust, but significantly lighter by about 35%- TWR should increase by a factor of 70% odd). But even this project is delayed. As of Aug 17, the deal was still not signed, partly due to bottlenecks at MoD- https://www.defensenews.com/air/2017/08 ... hallenges/
  
  So all in all this does not look like a plug and play thing. We have come a long way, let's work around the NLCA. Just my 2 cents.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Added later- If you go through the article on the Upgrade Challenges, you can see that even established vendors like Thales fall behind timelines. It's not the Russians alone, but almost everyone. The higher our homegrown component, the more will be our freedom of operation.

We will never manufacture or build everything we want, but the intent should be there. No short-cuts to self-reliance.

[Manish_P]

Gents, why have we all forgotten about the naval Jag that was being touted at one time by SEPECAT? ...but the French never got round to modifying the sole prototype of the M variant..

I have always liked the tough, stealthy cat.. wasn't even aware of the naval variant (proposed) till you mentioned it.

Found a video about it. Thanks

[Rakesh]

Tejas is there

https://twitter.com/CcibChris/status/991582135466315776 ---> Proportional aircraft comparisons

[suryag]

Please post your insightful thoughts on fighter design here

[Kakarat]

Nam ji please put your insightful thoughts in the design your own fighter as i did with a similar question few years ago

It is not a opinion. A theoretical question for those, who believe can answer it.

yes, It can be

[LakshmanPST]

I think India should also give numbers to their fighter jets along with names, like USA (F16, 18 etc), Russia (Su 30, 35 etc) and China (J10, 15, 16, 20 etc) does...
-
HAL already has its own numbering philosophy which they give for all planes designed by them... (Hindustan - Role of Aircraft - Product No. within HAL)
They previously gave number HF24 to Marut...

But since Tejas, AMCA are not pure HAL products, they are not numbered...
HF is a pretty good prefix for the fighter jets...
They may continue the HAL numbering philosophy (which is currently at 41 I guess) since HAL is also part of it... Or they can give new series of numbers for partnership products...
-
Tejas - HF 101
Tejas Mk 1A - HF 101 Mk 1A
Tejas Mk2 - HF 102
NLCA Mk 1 - HF 103
NLCA Mk 2 - HF 104
AMCA - HF 105
TEDBF - HF 106

[sajaym]

One honorable member has posted below design as one possibility of the evolution from NLCA Mk2 to TEDBF. This design is an UPWARD EVOLUTION. I would request any of you with good CAD skills to try a DOWNWARD EVOLUTION -- take the current AMCA design and scale it down to a non-stealthy 4 gen TEDBF design.

Some weekend timepass....

[Philip]

The long experience with the Sea Harrier and USMC versions has seen the development of the F-35B STOVL variant of the JSF.Vertical landing on a carrier requires no catobar/ EMALS syatem , arrestor wires at all and makes rrcovery so eady..Decades ago we should've started our own or in a JV, a STOVL programme.Even for the IAF, it allows for forward basing in small clearings as the RAF did in Germany. This is what I feel we need , not too late to start a programme.

[Rakesh]

https://twitter.com/PropagandaDevil/sta ... 02498?s=20 ---> Stealth MiG-21

https://twitter.com/hvtiaf/status/12932 ... 25504?s=20 ---> Interesting

[Manish_P]

Lesser RCS than a current MiG 21 possibly, much lesser RCS than the mighty big Su 30 probably, but stealthy as defined by 5th Gen parameters highly unlikely

RAM coating, angled surfaces seem good but it is still limited by external hard points.

I do understand why you have posted it in the 'Design your own fighter thread' though Rakesh ji

[Rakesh]

I don't know where else to put this...but for all aviation gurus...

https://twitter.com/engineers_feed/stat ... 10720?s=20 --->

[Pratyush]

Not an aviation guru.

But the answer is no. It cannot take off using a conveyor belt.

Because, even though both the conveyor belt and wheels might be moving at the take off velocity. But the wings are stationery and are not generating any lift.

[Kersi]

The lift is generated by the flow of air over the wings. The lift is proportional to the flow (velocity) of air over the wings. At a certain velocity the lift generated is more than the force of gravity and the plnae takes off. This is stalling velocity

So the plane should take off

[Manish_P]

^ Demo-ed many years ago on Mythbusters

Link - Here’s The Actual Science Behind That Plane Takeoff Meme You Keep Seeing

[Manish_P]

While forumites like me discuss how to design our fighters, this salt-of-the-earth rural school dropout designed his own helicopter and is working on building it!

(Apologies I don't know where to put this inspirational story)

AMAZING! The Class 9 Dropout Who Is Building Helicopters

- article by Air Commodore NITIN SATHE (Retd)

'Just because of my background and poor academic qualifications, most people disbelieve what I have done.'

Pradip Shivaji Mohite, a Class 9 dropout who has built 9 helicopter models, speaks to IAF Veteran Air Commodore Nitin Sathe.

[venkat_kv]

While forumites like me discuss how to design our fighters, this salt-of-the-earth rural school dropout designed his own helicopter and is working on building it!

(Apologies I don't know where to put this inspirational story)

AMAZING! The Class 9 Dropout Who Is Building Helicopters

- article by Air Commodore NITIN SATHE (Retd)

'Just because of my background and poor academic qualifications, most people disbelieve what I have done.'

Pradip Shivaji Mohite, a Class 9 dropout who has built 9 helicopter models, speaks to IAF Veteran Air Commodore Nitin Sathe.

Removing image and replying,
Manish_P Saar,
While this is a good story to tell and root for, there is still a long way to go. It is "still" a model with some hovering capacity. He will need to get an engine and required weights to take off and fly safely and a whole hog of tests later to follow
I would wish that Mahindras or any other Indian company funds him rather than try to take over some failed companies with some millions or billions in the UK or Australia. That will speed up the process. Someone should tweet this to Anand Mahindra ( i am not on any platforms like twitter/X). maybe see what comes out of it in a 3-5 year time frame.
There was a similar story of a man making a plane (a six or eight seater) who showed it to Fadnavis when he was the CM at that time. Not sure what came of it ultimately.

[Manish_P]

Manish_P Saar,
While this is a good story to tell and root for, there is still a long way to go. It is "still" a model with some hovering capacity. He will need to get an engine and required weights to take off and fly safely and a whole hog of tests later to follow
...

I know that well, Venkat ji. My point was that this dude is a salt-of-the-earth person, with very limited means, in a rural area. With the number of engineering pass-outs we churn out each year imagine the possibilities there might be if the curriculum is more strongly oriented towards practical hands-on internship with a joint industry/government partnership.

There was a similar story of a man making a plane (a six or eight seater) who showed it to Fadnavis when he was the CM at that time. Not sure what came of it ultimately.

If you are referring to the ex pilot Amol Shivaji Yadav, then I also am well aware of him. In fact i used to reside less than 2 kms from his house.

I had posted this sometime back - viewtopic.php?p=2460124#p2460124

BTW it is an amazing co-incidence (or perhaps fate) that both of them have 'Shivaji' as their middle name...

[venkat_kv]

Manish_P Saar,
While this is a good story to tell and root for, there is still a long way to go. It is "still" a model with some hovering capacity. He will need to get an engine and required weights to take off and fly safely and a whole hog of tests later to follow
...

I know that well, Venkat ji. My point was that this dude is a salt-of-the-earth person, with very limited means, in a rural area. With the number of engineering pass-outs we churn out each year imagine the possibilities there might be if the curriculum is more strongly oriented towards practical hands-on internship with a joint industry/government partnership.

There was a similar story of a man making a plane (a six or eight seater) who showed it to Fadnavis when he was the CM at that time. Not sure what came of it ultimately.

If you are referring to the ex pilot Amol Shivaji Yadav, then I also am well aware of him. In fact i used to reside less than 2 kms from his house.

I had posted this sometime back - viewtopic.php?p=2460124#p2460124

BTW it is an amazing co-incidence (or perhaps fate) that both of them have 'Shivaji' as their middle name...

No Ji for me Manish_P saar, But i do wish that Cpt. Amol Shivaji Yadav is funded atleast, 10-15 crores is much better CSR for corporates than giving to jollawallahs, this if successful will create a lot more jobs that the govts keep harping and more money for corporate investing in this.