Armoured Vehicles: News & Discussion

[Kartik]

I don't see it as a DGMF issue. It's the government of India paying tribute to the Americans and thinking that it buys acquiesce from the US towards India.

There are other defence products that can be bought if the GoI is trying to please the US Govt. More P-8Is for instance. Or more MH-60Rs. But Stryker? A non amphibious ICV when we have Kestrel WhAP? It's truly saddening.

[Rakesh]

Stryker is being hard-sold

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1802535214205587852

https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1802929055324328071 ---> Repeating myself — this is a TERRIBLE move at every level. Here’s why:

• Wasteful co-production of capability already with Indian firms like Tata, Mahindra, Kalyani, etc.

• Stryker ecosystem is in Canada. Why should GOI benefit Canada?!!

• Waste of ‘credits’ under India-US DTTI.

[Manish_P]

..There are other defence products that can be bought if the GoI is trying to please the US Govt. More P-8Is for instance. Or more MH-60Rs. But Stryker? A non amphibious ICV when we have Kestrel WhAP? It's truly saddening.

+1

or more MQ-9Bs

[nachiket]

https://x.com/ShivAroor/status/1802929055324328071 ---> Repeating myself — this is a TERRIBLE move at every level. Here’s why:

• Wasteful co-production of capability already with Indian firms like Tata, Mahindra, Kalyani, etc.

• Stryker ecosystem is in Canada. Why should GOI benefit Canada?!!

• Waste of ‘credits’ under India-US DTTI.

What always irks me is defense journalists like Shiv Aroor etc. who realize how unbelievably stupid some of the procurement decisions we make are, never ask questions like this point blank to anyone from the MoD (ideally the Mantriji himself if possible or some underling if not) and print their response (or refusal to respond which would be telling in itself). That is their job, not merely pontificating on twitter. Who knows, a hard hitting article or TV program detailing how "atmanirbharta" is being flushed down the toilet in multiple areas while simultaneously impacting our capability vis a vis our adversaries could do wonders.

[srai]

^^^
These people won’t have jobs

[Prem Kumar]

I don't think so. There are enough media houses & journalists who ask tough questions to politicians all the time. Not to mention tweet against someone.

Its a question of sloth & lack of seriousness/professionalism

[Avik]

On Stryker/Kestrel, I think we are getting the story wrong.
The intent is to get the transmission from Allison and the engine from Caterpillar. Both these will be manufactured by Tata through existing or new JVs. The items left are the hull and the cannon. The hull will be built in India. The cannon might be Bushmaster/Kongsberg

The intent for this is to use similar transmission and engines for multiple variants from Mortar Carrier to Armored Eng Vehicle to Recce Scout. One of the reasons for the delays in FMBT, FICV etc including indigenous SP arty is that they all have completely different engines, transmission etc. Having common engine and transmission simplifies a lot of logistics.

I think Kestrel is here for good, as it should be. Having common logistics will ensure that multiple variants roll out.

[Pratyush]

I don't believe that we are getting the story wrong.

WRT , 8x8 combat vehicles, within India we have 3 seperate companies with varients of 8x8 vehicles already available or under development. The CVRDE 600 HP engine is under testing. Armour is available in country through different armoured vehicles designed for seperate roles.

What's not available is the weapons package. But that's not a showstopper, because the Indian army has to make up it's bloody mind about what it wants. Along with the quantities. We have sufficient capacity in country to either design and produce it. Or if the volumes are too small then those things can always be imported.

Keeping in view the aforementioned points. If there is still a discussion for the co production of the Striker. Then there is something rotten in the state of Denmark.

[Rakesh]

Stryker is being hard-sold. Its absolutely disgusting! If we import Stryker, when we have far better homegrown alternatives, Atmanirbhar is a joke!

Fun Fact: Stryker does not have amphibious capability. WhaP does. Yet, our IA/DGMF is lowering the standards for an imported platform, to screw over an indigenous solution. Just like they did with the T-90s vs Arjun

DGMF needs a top-to-bottom rip & replace!

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1802535214205587852 ---> "The US is hard-selling the Strykers."

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1805274457050951979 ---> BTW, one of the Stryker variants being looked at by India is the one integrated with the Javelin ATGMs.

Go here for more info ---> https://www.aninews.in/news/world/asia/ ... 624190952/

[Pratyush]

The TATAs had shown a WhAP with a Javelin mount years ago. The Army as is usual for it. Didn't take the option.

They have converted the bloody vehicle into a mish mash of APC and MRAP.

[SRajesh]

^^^Saar you forgot to add that they would like a 'Whirly Bird' option for short hops across the water bodies just in case!!!

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1805294200482840928 ---> Indian Army is looking to integrate Saab's Mobile Camouflage System (MCS) on it's existing T-72 and T-90 tanks to increase battlefield survivability.

[Rakesh]

A fantastic interview, which is a must watch. Shiv Aroor hits it out of the park! The media must hold the Govt and the Army to account, over the Stryker deal, because I have zero hope in the opposition doing it.

==============================

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/18 ... 8729225251 ---> Stryker negotiations with United States is a serious issue now and more of malpractice. From benefitting our new adversary Canada to harming interests of our own private defence industry. I hope this issue is seriously taken up in parliament and nipped.

How a deal for armoured vehicles from US threatens Make in India

[ramana]

Rakesh It's useful to gather articles on Stryker usage in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This would cover the potential areas of deployment like Rajasthan and LAC. Bonus would be experience in muddy areas which would mimic Punjab.

[ramana]

Example:

https://responsiblestatecraft.org/2021/ ... it-anyway/

[mody]

First video of the Zorawar light tank. The prototype is being tested in Hazira Surat, at the L&T facility

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/wa ... ngNewsSerp

[Pratyush]

Rakesh It's useful to gather articles on Stryker usage in Iraq and Afghanistan.
This would cover the potential areas of deployment like Rajasthan and LAC. Bonus would be experience in muddy areas which would mimic Punjab.

How is a vehicle not designed for Indian requirements even be considered for an Indian procurement. Over and above the vehicle already designed for our requirements and extensively tested for over 10 years.

[ramana]

On Stryker/Kestrel, I think we are getting the story wrong.
The intent is to get the transmission from Allison and the engine from Caterpillar. Both these will be manufactured by Tata through existing or new JVs. The items left are the hull and the cannon. The hull will be built in India. The cannon might be Bushmaster/Kongsberg

The intent for this is to use similar transmission and engines for multiple variants from Mortar Carrier to Armored Eng Vehicle to Recce Scout. One of the reasons for the delays in FMBT, FICV etc including indigenous SP arty is that they all have completely different engines, transmission etc. Having common engine and transmission simplifies a lot of logistics.

I think Kestrel is here for good, as it should be. Having common logistics will ensure that multiple variants roll out.

Kestrel also has those variants. So not a real argument.
Stryker meets a US Army requirement for mobility and a vehicle that gives protection better than the HUMVEE and is lighter than the Bradley.

[ramana]

First video of the Zorawar light tank. The prototype is being tested in Hazira Surat, at the L&T facility

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/wa ... ngNewsSerp

This is a clinching argument for WHAP. I will explain later.

[Pratyush]

Snip .....
Kestrel also has those variants. So not a real argument.
Stryker meets a US Army requirement for mobility and a vehicle that gives protection better than the HUMVEE and is lighter than the Bradley.

The Stryker was procured by the US army as an interim solution in order to form several rapid deployment expiditionory brigades. In order to deal with 2 major theatre operations. Against 2 major adversaries.

Get them in theatre quickly with whatever assets are available. While the heavies trundle along on proper sea lift ships.

[Pratyush]

X response from the Zoravar thread.

How long will it take for the Army to place big orders and acquire the light tank Zorawar.
Now that L&T is involved in tanks, can the Arjun also have some joint ownership and be pushed to the army by L&T/DRDO/CVRDE.

Arjun is dead and should be treated as such. However, the FRCV is not. It represents an excellent opportunity for major Indian contractors to develop a new combat vehicle.

[ramana]

Do we know the physical dimensions of Zorawar tank like length, width and height?
Thanks in advance.

[Manish_P]

+1

With the floatation tracks on the side it does look wider than the T series... and taller.

Add-on ERA will make it look even chunkier.

It would still probably weigh less than the T72. Which is the requirement.

[Prem Kumar]

Isn't low profile (hit avoidance philosophy) a preference for our DGMF? Hope they don't use that as a reason to scuttle the Zorawar

As it is, with the 59 order joke, they are well on their way to killing this tank

[Pratyush]

The vehicle was supposed to around 25 tons with margin of 10 %.

So that should be clear. The installation of Anti tank guided missile on the Belgium sourced turret is an improvised solution. As requested by the DGMF.

But as Prem has posted above. Even though this vehicle is tailored to DGMF specification. I have full faith that they will muck up the procurement.

[Manish_P]

...Even though this vehicle is tailored to DGMF specification. I have full faith that they will muck up the procurement.

Well sir, the Sprut has the 125mm gun so there is a more than even chance of that happening and the Zorawar going down the Arjun route...

I hope that will not happen. And I will even hope that we are able to export Zorawars in the future.

[Pratyush]

Sprut was rejected well before the inception of the Zoravar project.

But mysterious are the ways of the Indian army.

[Manish_P]

Sprut was rejected well before the inception of the Zoravar project.

But mysterious are the ways of the Indian army.

Sprut was rejected.. there may come a new Sprut-MKI.

No. Cancel the above statement. There will be no stopping Zorawar. It looks good. It will be good. We will see good numbers of it.

[Manish_P]

Isn't low profile (hit avoidance philosophy) a preference for our DGMF? Hope they don't use that as a reason to scuttle the Zorawar
..

It has been that way. For the light tank project the weight criteria would seem to have more weight age (pun unintentional).

In this day with top attack ATGMs and Drone warfare (requiring anti drone canopy at the minimum) I think they may go less rigid with the height parameter.

[Kartik]

The vehicle was supposed to around 25 tons with margin of 10 %.

So that should be clear. The installation of Anti tank guided missile on the Belgium sourced turret is an improvised solution. As requested by the DGMF.

But as Prem has posted above. Even though this vehicle is tailored to DGMF specification. I have full faith that they will muck up the procurement.

Those are not ATGMs mounted on the turret. Those are canisters for carrying loitering munitions. Specific requirement based on the learnings from the Russia Ukraine war.

[Kartik]

+1

With the floatation tracks on the side it does look wider than the T series... and taller.

Add-on ERA will make it look even chunkier.

It would still probably weigh less than the T72. Which is the requirement.

Why does it need floatation tracks? Are you sure those are what it is and not spaced armour protection for the tracks that are now made of rubber? because the Zorawar is supposed to be able to ford across 1.5 m deep channels, not deeper.

[Manish_P]

+1

With the floatation tracks on the side it does look wider than the T series... and taller.

Add-on ERA will make it look even chunkier.

It would still probably weigh less than the T72. Which is the requirement.

Why does it need floatation tracks? Are you sure those are what it is and not spaced armour protection for the tracks that are now made of rubber? because the Zorawar is supposed to be able to ford across 1.5 m deep channels, not deeper.

No. I am not sure if they are side-protection armor or floatation plates.

Also not sure if the rubber tracks are only for the demo/parade vehicle while for the rough, rocky, cold-desert terrain in the mountains they might have regular metal tracks..

One thing I feel sure about is that it is our vehicle and so a lot of modifications as per our varied requirements will be doable. So am getting good vibes from it.

(If it was not for the Arjun MBT thread being jinxed for closure, i would have requested a separate thread for this new borne. At least i wish the good Admiral sir to announce mithais equivalent to it's weight)

[Pratyush]

Those are not ATGMs mounted on the turret. Those are canisters for carrying loitering munitions. Specific requirement based on the learnings from the Russia Ukraine war.

That frustrates me even more. The army is extremely capable of identifying the problem. Potential solutions. But totally muck up the execution of the solution.

Even in case of this vehicle. They are only going to procure 59 vehicles from L&T. Then they are going run a procurement circus for rest of the vehicles.

[Kartik]

Why does it need floatation tracks? Are you sure those are what it is and not spaced armour protection for the tracks that are now made of rubber? because the Zorawar is supposed to be able to ford across 1.5 m deep channels, not deeper.

No. I am not sure if they are side-protection armor or floatation plates.

Also not sure if the rubber tracks are only for the demo/parade vehicle while for the rough, rocky, cold-desert terrain in the mountains they might have regular metal tracks..

One thing I feel sure about is that it is our vehicle and so a lot of modifications as per our varied requirements will be doable. So am getting good vibes from it.

(If it was not for the Arjun MBT thread being jinxed for closure, i would have requested a separate thread for this new borne. At least i wish the good Admiral sir to announce mithais equivalent to it's weight)

From what the L&T top executive was talking, the rubberized tank tracks are part of the design. They help reduce weight and improve the ride handling over metal tank tracks.

The Zorawar looks very promising indeed, with the option to modify it going forward as suits the needs. Already there are plans afoot to replace the Cummins engine with an indigenous option, as well as the John Cockeril turret, with another indigenous design.

There is a Bharat Forge light tank design that is also apparently in the works. It may well end up be the competitor to the Zorawar for the remaining 295 light tanks that the IA is planning to acquire.

But the Stryker acquisition raises a big question is over the acquisition process. It should not be opened to foreign vendors under an assemble in India option. Otherwise it will genuinely kill or at least massively dampen any interest that private sector industries will have for the FICV and FMBT.

[srai]

10-years later we will still be talking about the 59 orders that either never materialized or never had follow-on orders.

Quantities are too small and the timelines are too long. That seems to be the recurring problem with IA and indigenous big item products.

[Manish_P]

From what the L&T top executive was talking, the rubberized tank tracks are part of the design. They help reduce weight and improve the ride handling over metal tank tracks.

Oh. Good to hear that sir. Straight from the horse's mouth. Thanks.

The Zorawar looks very promising indeed, with the option to modify it going forward as suits the needs. Already there are plans afoot to replace the Cummins engine with an indigenous option, as well as the John Cockeril turret, with another indigenous design.

Good to hear that a iterative development roadmap seems to be in place for what seems to be a relatively hasty requirement. It is absolutely critical that desi components come in for the hardware like the engine, transmission and gun. Optics, sensors and software we are already quite mature and getting better everyday.

There is a Bharat Forge light tank design that is also apparently in the works. It may well end up to be the competitor to the Zorawar for the remaining 295 light tanks that the IA is planning to acquire.

Excellent but needs careful nurturing and support over a long time frame (could be fickle in our kind of democracy). Proven time and again that nothing helps industry get better like strong competition. One hopes that successive heads of the military support the vertical program (Zorawar Mk1, Zorawar Mk2,....) and are aided by the GoI/MoD with the finances over a period and do a balancing act (like the US does) to mitigate monopoly risks. The Zorawar light tank might well be one unit of a modular family of products so there is ample room for multiple competition, especially a large military power like us.

But the Stryker acquisition raises a big question is over the acquisition process. It should not be opened to foreign vendors under an assemble in India option. Otherwise it will genuinely kill or at least massively dampen any interest that private sector industries will have for the FICV and FMBT.

If (I don't know) the Stryker is coming as a keep-Unkil-happy thing, I would much rather have P-8I, MQ-9s or even C-5s.

It will be a downer for our fledgling pvt. Industry for sure. The GoI and MoD must have a dedicated desk for arms exports and must generate overseas interests and sales for the private industry. The RM must have a junior (with his team) who is head of sales exports.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1813609217078804672 ---> Namica 2 will have four ATGMs in ready to fire mode. Two twin launchers on either side of the turret. Light & Zippy for the mountains.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1813609217078804672 ---> Namica 2 will have four ATGMs in ready to fire mode. Two twin launchers on either side of the turret. Light & Zippy for the mountains.

https://x.com/vincentkanth/status/1813630187369820435 ---> So, the turret can be mounted on Tata KESTREL and FICV too?

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1813631320922431862 ---> This one will be mounted on WhAP and FICV from DRDO.

[srai]

^^^
About time!

Always wanted to see NAG missile decoupled from specialist NAMICA and integrated with other platforms. It should be looked at as a replacement for all the Konkurs-M.

However, if we were to go by IA’s RFI, NAG may be too big.

…
The ATGM project features the acquisition of 5,000 fire-and-forget missiles and 500 launcher systems to be mounted on licence-built BMP-2/2K ‘Sarath' infantry combat vehicles (ICVs).

According to the RFI, the ATGMs – capable of top and direct attack modes – must be less than 1.25 m in length, 25 kg in weight, and have a 125 mm calibre. The missiles should fire at a minimum range of 200 m and 1,100 m for direct and top attack modes, respectively, and at a maximum range of more than 5 km.

The ATGMs must be capable of penetrating at least 650 mm rolled homogeneous armour equivalent (RHAe) and explosive reactive armour (ERA).
…

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/de ... chine-guns

The above RFI weight & dimensions match Spike MR/LR more of less exactly

[Nikhil_Naya]

Ak-203, negev and sig716 fitted with scopes on operational duties. Perhaps Thakur ji could identify the make of these.

pic courtesy of Northern command twitter handle.

This image is from the Infrantry weapons thread - what caught my eye was the WhAP that is there in the picture. Of course, just can see the front, but seems to be showcased by the Northern Command, good sign?