UAVs, Drones, Remote Surveillance Tech

[sanjaykumar]

Why not use cheap high speed drones to kill drones?

Usually when I think of something obvious and there is little in the public domain, it means furious work is being done, but discreetly.

[Neela]

Explained beautifully.

It's amazing that so many highly educated people in India are unable to understand this.

Well to be honest, 'educated' or otherwise, most people simply don't know the circus of the public procurement system. I myself didn't until I became part of it. The other major problem is that people are simply unaware of the high cost of R&D. To get the benefit of R&D, the product has to be procured in large numbers otherwise its not financially feasible. We cannot throw a few pennies and then not induct anything and then expect world class results.

Absolutely. And the babus and netas must realize also that there are several areas in the defence sector where the model simply will not work because there isnt enough numbers for private industry to step in. They have to realize that private industry is responsible to shareholders and not the govt. And pvt industry should make money. If the numbers dont justify R&D spend, they'll walk away.
Unless.
You have a mercantile mindset where you want to corner the global market. In that case, ultra cheap financing of niche industries from the government to private industry. For that, you'll need confidence. We probably arent there yet. Maybe in 10 years. . Kalyani is discounted here as an exception. Baba Kalyani is a visionary and was willing to tkae the risk. He took the risk. And now he has enough orders to sustain his own R&D .

[Prem Kumar]

https://www.livefistdefence.com/ghatak- ... rams-path/

This is Part 1 of concerns raised by the Ghatak Project Director (ADA) Biju Uthup. If you ignore the unnecessary hyperbole about ADA, the kernel of his concern is that the Ghatak project was gifted from ADA to ADE after the former did all the hard work!

Needless to say, this is a catastrophically dumb move! As everyone knows, ADA has had stellar success with Tejas while ADE has shipped zilch! Everything the ADE touched has failed: Nirbhay, Rustom 1 & 2.

WTF were the DRDO top brass thinking?

The correct approach would be to leave Ghatak with ADA, dissolve ADE and move its people/projects under other labs whose managers can crack the whip & know how to ship products!

[Rakesh]

India sends newly assembled MALE UAVs to Israel
https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/uv-o ... to-israel/
02 February 2024

[bala]

Sandeep Unnithan and Lt. Gen P R Shankar talk about development and deployment of unmanned aerial systems in India. The idea is to get IGDMP (missile integrated development program) like program for drones with academic, services, ISRO and others involved (integrated drone development program - IDDP). Today, many private companies, buy sub-systems from abroad and put something together for the purpose they are dealing with as a product. However these 1 of systems do not help build an eco-system that supports better systems down the road. Importing sub-systems is not Atma Nirbharta. The army needs UAVs operable in high altitudes. Navy has needs for UAVs operable over seas. The airforce needs UAVs to work in concert with their aircrafts. India requires many different kinds of UAVs, defence against enemy drones is another requirement. The CDS must be involved to get a jointness amongst the armed forces especially with communication, intelligence sharing with space based assets like satellites. Use of AI for better decision making is another area India needs to consider. A drone pilot needs to be nurtured and incentivized. Maintenance and repair is another area, with robust part supply which is in India.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=090YkCveF-A

// good discussions, now we need to turn them into a dedicated program so that the armed forces would benefit from its outcome. I hope the MOD babus listen to the suggestions and make them happen. Pujya Mantriji should be involved in decision making. Let us face the fact that India is behind the curve on drones. This has forced India to import predators and herons from videsh at a huge cost.

[Rakesh]

How India is trying to revive its nosediving ambitious military drone project
https://www.indiatoday.in/india-today-i ... 2024-02-10
10 Feb 2024

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy, Air Force showing interest in indigenous Tapas drones
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 214200216/
14 Feb 2024

[Manish_P]

Indian Navy, Air Force showing interest in indigenous Tapas drones
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 214200216/
14 Feb 2024

Just a page back there are posts about the cancellation (or pause) of the Tapas program...

[VinodTK]

From: NDTV

India-US Deal For Buying 31 Predator Drones To Be Signed Soon: Navy Chief

Visakhapatnam: Indian Navy chief Admiral R Hari Kumar on Sunday said the all-important deal for buying 31 Predator drones from the US has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council and is expected to be signed in the next few months.

"We are the lead servers who are steering it. The letter of request has been cleared by the Defence Acquisition Council and the letter of request has gone to the US government. They have given us a draft letter of availability. Now the final one will come. It has to be placed before the (the US) Congressional committee thereafter it will come," he said.

The Navy chief said, "We hope that it will be taken forward and we hope to sign the contract maybe in a few months ahead."

He said that there is a lead time for it to be manufactured and delivered. So the first aircraft may not come before 36 months.

"And we hope that it will be taken forward and we hope to sign the contract maybe in a few months ahead. And thereafter there is a lead time for it to be manufactured and delivered. So the first aircraft may not come before 36 months," he added.

India and the US are in talks to sign the Predator drone deal in which 31 of them would be acquired of which 15 would be operated by the Indian Navy while 8 each would be flown by the Indian Army and Air Force.

The deal is expected to be worth around USD 4 billion and would include weapons and other equipment required for operations.

As Admiral Kumar reaffirms, protecting national interests in the maritime domain remains paramount, underscoring the Navy's unwavering dedication to safeguarding the seas.

While speaking to ANI about the 'MILAN 24, he added, "a new era of maritime cooperation, where nations unite to navigate the complexities of the maritime domain, ensuring that the oceans remain safe, secure, and free--a testament to the enduring spirit of collaboration in the Indo-Pacific region."

Eastern Naval Command posted on X, extending a warm welcome for Corvette 20 of the Vietnam People's Navy and USS Halsey (DDG-97) of the United States Navy

"Naval vessels from Vietnam and the United States have arrived in Visakhapatnam for the MILAN 2024 maritime exercise," the post on X remarked.

Moreover, the 12th edition of the MILAN exercise will be held from February 19 to 27 in Visakhapatnam and will see the participation of over 50 countries.

[Haridas]

Just a page back there are posts about the cancellation (or pause) of the Tapas program...

Just shows how shallow is understanding of people who take sensational YouTuber reporting (some paid by vested interest) hook line & sinker.

In SM and iirc on BR I had said mission mode removal means goes to production without further major development.

[Haridas]

From: NDTV India-US Deal For Buying 31 Predator Drones To Be Signed Soon: Navy Chief

India needs many times more heavy MALE (>3000 kg & >30,000 Ft) then the 31 MQ9. (Not counting the much lighter and lower altitude elbit Hermes Dristi)

I won't be surprised that after election, MQ9 and some other indigenous MALE options are funded by Modi-3 govt.

[tandav]

https://www.eurasiantimes.com/houthis-m ... eaper/amp/

3 MQ9 reapers each $32000000 shot down since Nov 2023 by the Houthis by apparently by sub $10000 munitions off Yemen. British Tanker also sunk

The attrition of expensive NATO assets by non peer ragtag militias makes one doubt the ability to face near peer adversaries like China and Russia

[Manish_P]

...
In SM and iirc on BR I had said mission mode removal means goes to production without further major development.

Great to hear. Orders placed?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/DivaJain2/status/1764461984940953692?s=20 ---> IG drones started as a service provider. Now it is making a foray in to manufacturing drones. This is the natural progression of things in manufacturing. Starting from scratch with 100% R&D and zero screwdrivergiri is not a feasible strategy in manufacturing.

https://x.com/AdithyaKM_/status/1764660 ... 73581?s=20 ---> In the defence sector we need actual R&D. Issue is that screwdriver projects, *wrongly claimed to be indigenous*, compete with true IDDM ones & kill them due to fixed demand. For strategic sectors, mere 'Make' is suicidal for R&D, for which DRDO continues to do the heavy lifting...

[sanman]

IDF Uses Robot Dogs in War with Hamas

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7zziLyPNfM

Google summary

The video talks about the use of robot dogs by the Israeli Defense Force (IDF) in the ongoing war with Hamas. The speaker raises concerns about the ethical implications of using robots in warfare and the potential for civilian casualties.

The speaker first mentions a Black Mirror episode where robot dogs were used to kill people. He then points out that while the robot dogs used by the IDF are not weaponized, their use in warfare is still concerning. He argues that the use of robots in warfare reduces the risk to soldiers, which can lead to them taking more risks and potentially causing more civilian casualties.

The speaker also discusses the potential for robots to make mistakes, such as killing civilians or friendly fire. He mentions an incident where the IDF killed three Israeli hostages who were waving white flags. He argues that it is unclear whether robots would be more or less likely to make such mistakes.

Finally, the speaker discusses the potential for robot dogs to be used to help dig out Palestinians who are crushed under rubble. He argues that this would be a welcome use of the technology, but it is unclear whether this would be the goal of the IDF.

Overall, the video raises concerns about the ethical implications of using robots in warfare and the potential for civilian casualties.

[srai]

^^^
So it begins …


Here is a clip of the Black Mirror- Metalhead episode

[Manish_P]

IDF Uses Robot Dogs in War with Hamas

Weren't the same questions raised two decades ago when the US started using drones over Afghanistan/Pakistan?

[srai]

^^^
AI and Robotics at completely different levels if you are comparing tech from two decades ago.

Even small weaponized drones being manufactured by the millions with rapidly evolving elements of AI (image recognition and autonomous decision making & action) were totally non-existent back then.

[VinodTK]

From: Time Of India
India’s first indigenous bomber UAV unveiled in Bengaluru

BENGALURU: Flying Wedge Defence and Aerospace Technologies, an Indian defence and aerospace company, Friday marked a milestone in Bengaluru by unveiling the FWD-200B, pegged to be the country’s first indigenous bomber unmanned aerial vehicle (UAV).
The FWD-200B is a medium-altitude, long-endurance (MALE) unmanned combat aerial vehicle designed and manufactured entirely in India. With a payload capacity of 100 kgs, it can carry optical surveillance payloads as well as precision air-strike weapons, the firm said.
Addressing the unveiling ceremony in Bengaluru, Suhas Tejaskanda, founder, Flying Wedge Defence, said the FWD-200B fulfils India’s long-awaited dream of producing a combat UAV indigenously after years of failed attempts by agencies like the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO).

“A key highlight is the massive cost reduction achieved. While an imported US Predator drone costs a staggering Rs 250 crore, the Indian-made FWD-200B will be available for just Rs 25 crores — a tenth of the cost,” the firm said.

Tejaskanda added that this demonstrated the company’s commitment to self-reliance and positions India as a leader in cost-effective defence solutions.

“With a 12-20 hour endurance, 200 kts/370 kmph max speed, and 200 km ground control station range, the FWD-200B is envisioned as the “nation’s eagle eye” and an aerial shield against threats,” the firm said, adding that its unveiling marks a major boost to India's Make in India initiative and reduces dependency on costly imports for strategic defence equipment like UAVs.

[Manish_P]

4 Piston engines?

The payload of 100 kg seems quite less..

I see a lot of fun being poked at it on twitter.

I am no aero engineer but I was instantly reminded of the 'Egg' shaped Otto Celera 500L

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-spac ... 180978683/

[Rakesh]

Indian Army to get first Hermes-900 drone on May 18, to boost surveillance on Pakistan border
https://aninews.in/news/world/asia/indi ... 510205409/
10 May 2024

[Manish_P]

Fascinating UUV, if the video is not of the over hype variety

Manta Ray UUV prototype completes testing

The Manta Ray prototype uncrewed underwater vehicle (UUV) built by performer Northrop Grumman completed full-scale, in-water testing off the coast of Southern California in February and March 2024. Testing demonstrated at-sea hydrodynamic performance, including submerged operations using all the vehicle’s modes of propulsion and steering: buoyancy, propellers, and control surfaces.

“Our successful, full-scale Manta Ray testing validates the vehicle’s readiness to advance toward real-world operations after being rapidly assembled in the field from modular subsections,” said Dr. Kyle Woerner, DARPA program manager for Manta Ray. “The combination of cross-country modular transportation, in-field assembly, and subsequent deployment demonstrates a first-of-kind capability for an extra-large UUV.”

Why DARPAs Manta Ray is a nightmare for enemy subs

https://youtu.be/x7OTgpxedp0?si=mdhITZYOBpreLtCW

[Pratyush]

https://swarajyamag.com/defence/india-i ... s-one-more

India Is Achieving Impressive Feats To Make High Altitude Pseudo Satellites A Reality, Here’s One More

Published on 23rd of May 2024

[sanman]

So HAL is soon going to start fabricating the fabled CATS Warrior?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwO4GERCvGk

[pravula]

So HAL is soon going to start fabricating the fabled CATS Warrior?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwO4GERCvGk

Well, i am not sure if HAL is gonna build it, but I am sure IAF will not buy it.

[Pratyush]

For the IAF to buy it, the Israelis have to buy it.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ReviewVayu/status/1801570114086834513 ---> Nice story by @manupubby on the induction on N-1. Hopefully N-2 on its was as well!!



Photos @ Defexpo 2022

[ashthor]

Indian Navy to order four Made-in-India Tapas drones from DRDO

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 193232.cms

"The Indian Navy is going to order four Tapas drones and it is going to use them for maritime surveillance operations," defence officials told ANI.

The drones would be manufactured by a consortium of Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL)and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL).

"The deliveries would be made faster by the consortium as the first bird would be ready for delivery within 24 months of signing the contract. The existing birds or drones would be used for carrying out trials and improving their capabilities," they added.

[Brad Goodman]

Hats off to Navy for taking the leadership decisions on Tapas. I have been a big supporter of this program. Build/buy and perfect systems, provide real time feedback by 1st using the systems learning what you can do and what you would like to do and then work with DRDO to make it happen, It maybe slow but you have control over the platform and costs. I still recommend Tapas should be given to BSF, ITBP and Coastguard for 24x7 surveillance of our borders, use the platforms on real time basis in different conditions make smaller improvements and build both manpower on armed forces side who can perfect their situational awareness and communications plans and also allow DRDO to lean and make technical enhancements

[maitya]

^^^ Slightly confusing, as there are these reports circulating of imminent test-flying of a 30K ft altitude Tapas variant (though silent on the >18hrs endurance aspects).

[Prem Kumar]

Hats off to Navy for taking the leadership decisions on Tapas. I have been a big supporter of this program. Build/buy and perfect systems, provide real time feedback by 1st using the systems learning what you can do and what you would like to do and then work with DRDO to make it happen, It maybe slow but you have control over the platform and costs. I still recommend Tapas should be given to BSF, ITBP and Coastguard for 24x7 surveillance of our borders, use the platforms on real time basis in different conditions make smaller improvements and build both manpower on armed forces side who can perfect their situational awareness and communications plans and also allow DRDO to lean and make technical enhancements

Yes. If the IAF & IA are going to act uppity, better give it to forces who will appreciate the platform!

Its current capabilities are nothing to sneeze at. And *even if* the design of Tapas is a dead-end (& I am not saying it is), we should still order a few dozen of these because of our massively long borders & coastlines

We have been caught napping at Galwan and earlier at Kargil. Its downright criminal for the Armed Forces to not induct a platform which gives them 28K feet & 18 hrs endurance

[maitya]

Interesting news: IAF to acquire 6 Tapas drones, lead military acquisition for Made-in-India UAVs

... the Indian Air Force has made a proposal to the central government to buy 10 Tapas drones ...
...
...
... Out of 10, six Made-in-India drones would be for the Indian Air Force while the remaining four would be for the Indian Navy ...
...

This is follow-up to what Rakeshji had posted earlier:

Indian Navy, Air Force showing interest in indigenous Tapas drones
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 214200216/
14 Feb 2024

Also there are multiple news report, over last couple of days, about Navy trying to induct 4 Tapas drones:
Navy to acquire 4 indigenously made Tapas drones

[Brad Goodman]

Yes. If the IAF & IA are going to act uppity, better give it to forces who will appreciate the platform!

Its current capabilities are nothing to sneeze at. And *even if* the design of Tapas is a dead-end (& I am not saying it is), we should still order a few dozen of these because of our massively long borders & coastlines

We have been caught napping at Galwan and earlier at Kargil. Its downright criminal for the Armed Forces to not induct a platform which gives them 28K feet & 18 hrs endurance

Excellence is enemy of good, may be the platform is not perfect for war time situation ( I am not saying but lets agree for argument sake) still there are thousands of situations during peace time where we can use it. Learn from usage and build skilled manpower who can work with it. Perfect false positives, use the experience and finetune command and control scenarios. I was thinking like say coast guard has this bird in air for 18 hours it can start building a database of fishing vessels and other known assets and their daily patterns. It can build AI/ ML algoritms that keep track of these vessels daily and any deviations from normal patterns and alert users. fine tune it and you have an automated platform that will work for you in years to come when you get your 30K altitude and 24hrs endurance unicorn in hands. Use it in naxal belt to keep eyes on movement, use it to track cattle smuggling in Bangladesh or movements of kukis in Myanmar

[eklavya]

^^^
The linked headline says “IAF to acquire 6 Tapas drones, lead military acquisition for Made-in-India UAVs”.

The text of the story says “The Indian Air Force will be the lead agency for the induction and acquisition of the Tapas drones into the defence forces, they [defence officials] said.”

[Manish_P]

...
Excellence is enemy of good, may be the platform is not perfect for war time situation ( I am not saying but lets agree for argument sake) still there are thousands of situations during peace time where we can use it. Learn from usage and build skilled manpower who can work with it. Perfect false positives, use the experience and finetune command and control scenarios. I was thinking like say coast guard has this bird in air for 18 hours it can start building a database of fishing vessels and other known assets and their daily patterns. It can build AI/ ML algoritms that keep track of these vessels daily and any deviations from normal patterns and alert users. fine tune it and you have an automated platform that will work for you in years to come when you get your 30K altitude and 24hrs endurance unicorn in hands. Use it in naxal belt to keep eyes on movement, use it to track cattle smuggling in Bangladesh or movements of kukis in Myanmar

+1

We are not even at peace. We are in a state of asymmetric war with the enemy constantly and incessantly trying to push in military trained irregulars and even special forces into our territory in challenging geography. Have been for the past few decades now.

It is a no-brainer that we need large number of such remotely operated systems to help our forces on the ground who are stretched and have been under tremendous pressure and mental stress for so many years.

Depriving them of such systems just because they meet maybe 75% only of the QRs is just plain uncaring and downright criminal.

[Pratyush]

The meeting of tapas not meeting the QR is a red herring IMO.

When the aircraft was being developed, did the forces even say a word of what desired performance characteristics were?

Of nearly 10 years of following the program, crashes and all. I have not seen any performance requirements from the services.

Once the platform is ready, then the services come up with specifications that they know are not met by the developed product.

That is the problem.

[Manish_P]

..
Of nearly 10 years of following the program, crashes and all. I have not seen any performance requirements from the services.
..

So was it entirely just an internal 'lets see what we can do' science project?

[Pratyush]

If you can find the performance requirements for the program from the services that says the the UAV must fly at 24 k feet or 30k feet for 24 hours. Dating back to the inception of the program, or even before 2022 timeframe, you are welcome to share them.

Because, the first time I saw those requirements was in 2022, when the production numbers of 108 airframes was being discussed for the 3 services.

The CVRDE had also initiated the development of 220 hp powerplant for the aircraft around the same time.

https://idrw.org/tapas-commences-taxi-t ... us-engine/

Tapas commences taxi trials with indigenous engine.

Published on 22nd February 2023.

[srin]

Regarding Tapas, requiring a propeller plane to fly at 30K ft seems to be brochuritis to me. Looking at wiki specs for other MALE UAVs, only Hermes 900 seems to have 30k service ceiling, but service ceiling would not mean cruise altitude and there would likely be huge limitations on the payload.

[fanne]

I will get roasted for this. And let me start with the disclaimer - I know very little about airplane design (and what I have is from internet over 20 years).

The Tapas from face of it, has these issues:-

1) The airframe looks very boxy (non aerodynamic, but our Dornier also looks like that, so who knows. Glad about recent news on airframe optimization)

2) Two engine design? It is a very big compromise to begin with.

3) The project has been going on for decades. A far more complex LCA did better timeline wise.

4) You kept on hearing issues in the lab. They now also have aurora project, God help us.

5) There are better design available, like the Heron, apparently most optimized aerodynamics wise. We also know push propellers are better (by none other than DRDO). Why not use that? We have some effort towards that. Also propeller engines are 1960S tech going in these engines. We have material knowledge way advanced than that. We can make a similar engine/similar design and use for our effort. That initiative is missing. Chalta Hai?

6) Most sub systems are still imported. Kudos on flight law, control center and satellite communication.