Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[ramana]

Meantime AM Anil Chopra writes the US is offering the F-15EX as their plane for the 114 MRFA Khwab of IAF chief.
He gives a long litany of IAF squadron strength decreasing etc.
And makes some disjointed remarks about Rafale-M vs F-18s.
He doesn't know F-18 was never a viable option due to the Vikrant hanger lift capacity and more importantly the Vikrant arresting cable capacity.
So again the games are going on.

[Rakesh]

US Pushes Boeing F-15EX To Indian Air Force, A Mighty Powerful Fighter Aircraft That IAF Is Exploring
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/big-push- ... e_vignette
25 June 2024

[Rakesh]

Ramana-ji, he is part of a think-tank based out of New Delhi called Centre for Air Power Studies ---> https://capsindia.org/

He writes articles on air power in India, so the above article is likely part of his contribution to try and stay relevant.

Having read through the above article, some of my observations;

1) His claim that "...grapevine has it that the Navy will go for 26 Rafale-M..." is either borne out of ignorance or he is being willfully obtuse. Either one does not set a good tone for the rest of the article. The first set of G2G meetings are already underway between France and India, over the Rafale M. How he does not know this - especially being part of a think tank - is surprising.

2) He then jumps into hard selling the F-15EX and lists all its positive attributes. He does talk about the F-15EX being prohibitively expensive to acquire (CAPEX), but forgets to mention that its OPEX is equally horrendous. The F-15EX will slot in perfectly for existing F-15 users, like Saudi Arabia and Israel, who are acquiring it. Indonesia signed a MoU to acquire the aircraft, but I am not sure if a contract was ever signed. Egypt and Poland are also exploring the aircraft. The F-15EX is neither cheap to acquire or to operate. The F-15EX will only complement the Su-30MKI (post upgrade) and not add any value to the IAF. The only value will be geopolitical and that too only for the US.

3) He then concludes the article with the following ---> "...Ideally, the IAF and Indian Navy must choose the same type. It should be made in India. It must get us more ToT, ideally for the aero engine..." I don't see how this plan will work out, with any other aircraft other than the Rafale and even that will be a Transfer of Production (i.e. Screwdrivergiri) line onlee. Another aircraft is certainly doable, but it will be an expensive proposition to go in for another 4th generation type in light of the investments made in the IAF Rafale fleet and now with the investment to-be-made in the upcoming Navy Rafale fleet. And then the costs for a JV between GTRE and GE or Rolls Royce for a 110 - 130kN AMCA turbofan.

4) He then drops in this gem ---> "...Ideally, they must offer the F-35 and find a technical way out of the S-400 linkage muddle..." The Air Marshal is all over the map. Even worse, there is no roadmap - in his article - towards self reliance. He is all about balancing and managing percentages of foreign kit in the IAF. Same old wine, just in a new bottle.

[ramana]

First he is no longer Director of CAPS.

It may be he was compelled to write this article for he is a worthy successor to Air Cdr Jasjit Singh and truly has IAF interests.
I treat it as info dot in how Boeing is now pushing F-15 after failing with F-18 for IN.

[nachiket]

BTW, these jets have more than 70% of their flight hours, as per the Indonesian Defence Minister! They'll easily go on for another 20+ years and outlast most of our Mirages.

Since all of our other M2k's will be long retired by then it would make no sense to keep just 12 of the type active. And even for these aircrcaft finding spares will get tougher and tougher. We were already buying old M2k's from France to cannibalize them for spares. The M53 engines are long out of production and even the our 2000I upgrade did not include new ones. The Indonesians had the same concerns about long term availability of spares from your link. Spending $50m+ per aircraft is ridiculous in these circumstances. The Qatari M2k's made perfect sense all those years ago when they were first offered. They make zero sense now unless the Qataris substantially reduce the price.

[Rakesh]

First he is no longer Director of CAPS.

It may be he was compelled to write this article for he is a worthy successor to Air Cdr Jasjit Singh and truly has IAF interests.
I treat it as info dot in how Boeing is now pushing F-15 after failing with F-18 for IN.

Ramana-ji, as you already know, Boeing is in serious hot water and it relates to their QC of their products. I would not touch a Boeing product - any longer - with a ten foot pole. The C-17s, AH-64s, CH-17s and P-8Is we have now should be the last of any Boeing product acquired.

[ShauryaT]

Ramana-ji, as you already know, Boeing is in serious hot water and it relates to their QC of their products. I would not touch a Boeing product - any longer - with a ten foot pole. The C-17s, AH-64s, CH-17s and P-8Is we have now should be the last of any Boeing product acquired.

Rakesh: I have a different assessment on Boeing's viability. Most of the latest major QC issues are isolated to faulty fuselages supplied by Spirit Aerosystems (Boeing is to acquire them). The FAA and other regulatory bodies including political are on Boeing's heels to fix the issue. Boeing and the US really do not have a choice but to ensure they regain their lost trust, Boeing being not just too big but the only mature game for large air bodies and other products. We have seen this playbook before with the 737 max failures (which were fixed) only to encounter another one. Too bad for Boeing and its image, however failure is simply not an option for the US with this company.

[Rakesh]

Pointed noted ShauryaT. I just do not want IAF to be the guinea pig for Boeing's products.

When accountants take over from engineers, this is what happens. Lets hope the turn around comes soon.

[ramana]

Pointed noted ShauryaT. I just do not want IAF to be the guinea pig for Boeing's products.

When accountants take over from engineers, this is what happens. Lets hope the turn around comes soon.

Thumbs up.
Note how they hard slod F-18s hiring a retired Vice Admiral who cared only for take off and not whether the plane would fit Vikrant hanger train or could it land due to arresting cable capacity.
Typical flyboy.

[ramana]

We should have a similar article on IAF long range strike weapons.

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... velopment/

[Vayutuvan]

Typical flyboy.

Maybe even "fly by the night" arms dealer setup.

[Kartik]

BTW, these jets have more than 70% of their flight hours, as per the Indonesian Defence Minister! They'll easily go on for another 20+ years and outlast most of our Mirages.

Since all of our other M2k's will be long retired by then it would make no sense to keep just 12 of the type active. And even for these aircrcaft finding spares will get tougher and tougher. We were already buying old M2k's from France to cannibalize them for spares. The M53 engines are long out of production and even the our 2000I upgrade did not include new ones. The Indonesians had the same concerns about long term availability of spares from your link. Spending $50m+ per aircraft is ridiculous in these circumstances. The Qatari M2k's made perfect sense all those years ago when they were first offered. They make zero sense now unless the Qataris substantially reduce the price.

It makes ample sense because they're going to have high rates of availability due to their airframes being newer than most of ours. There is a severe squadron shortage that the IAF is facing now that is not being addressed fast enough with Tejas Mk1A inductions. Even now, the 97 more Tejas Mk1A contract hasn't been finalized or signed. Add any more Tejas Mk1A orders and those will only be delivered around 2032 or so, after completing the remaining 179 Tejas Mk1A deliveries.

This is a question of taking the IAF's preparedness seriously and if that requires buying second hand jets then so be it. Those Greek Mirage-2000-5 Mk2s too should be bought to give the IAF another squadron of Mirages as well.

This is where the PAF's practical procurement trumps ours each time. If they had the money and the US approval, they'd be soaking up every available F-16 in order to retire their older jets. Only in India will we sit and argue over comparatively menial amounts and then when the day of action comes, we're only able to put up 4-5 jets in the air even when the IAF knew that retaliation was going to come.

[Pratyush]

The squadron shortage issue is what it is.

12 aircrafts of a type slated for replacement by 2040 at the price of a new build Tejas is not a good option. In order to mitigate that shortage.

We may as well order extra 12 Tejas with the aircraft entering service when they do. Or order 12 extra MWFs for when they will enter service. Or add 12 additional aircrafts to the MRFA contract.

The M2000 have served us well. But time is approaching to let them go.

[maitya]

The squadron shortage issue is what it is.

12 aircrafts of a type slated for replacement by 2040 at the price of a new build Tejas is not a good option. In order to mitigate that shortage.

We may as well order extra 12 Tejas with the aircraft entering service when they do. Or order 12 extra MWFs for when they will enter service. Or add 12 additional aircrafts to the MRFA contract.

The M2000 have served us well. But time is approaching to let them go.

The keyword is immediate availability ... which is not possible with Mk1As i.e. the additional MK1As, if ordered now, will get scheduled for delivery atleast 3-4 years hence, after the delivery of 83 are completed. Why wait for it, when something is available now to bolster the falling Sqn levels?
But yes, the price has to be right!!

Also any further upgrades (Uttam-2000 plus DRFM-based indigenous ECM etc), would be of rolling upgrades in nature i.e. they will get upgraded while platform remains in active service, in parallel - so, minimal impact wrt maintaining the Orbat.
(Note: The upgrade program for all 48/50 M2Ks to the I/TI std concluded recently, IIRC 2020 or thereabouts)

And since M2K would be last platforms to be replaced by the Mk2s, so good 15years hence - additional shoring up of the numbers, makes ample sense.

[Kartik]

The squadron shortage issue is what it is.

12 aircrafts of a type slated for replacement by 2040 at the price of a new build Tejas is not a good option. In order to mitigate that shortage.

We may as well order extra 12 Tejas with the aircraft entering service when they do. Or order 12 extra MWFs for when they will enter service. Or add 12 additional aircrafts to the MRFA contract.

The M2000 have served us well. But time is approaching to let them go.

"Is what it is". That is a fatalistic viewpoint that assumes the IAF must just accept it and move on.

The Qatari Mirages offer the IAF the quickest option to create another squadron, within a few months, which may well have better availability than the full size No.1 and No.7 squadrons or even No.9 squadron which doesn't have 18 Mirages.

There is no other option anywhere that will allow the IAF to stand up a squadron that fast. That is one part of the solution for quickly building up some numbers, along with the option to go with Greek Mirage-2000-5 Mk2s.

I mean the IAF was seriously considering those 21 MiG-29s from Russia before the war erupted there. These are in far better shape than those which were stored and needed a full MiG-29UPG upgrade.

Anyway I'm not going to keep arguing for these. As it stands, the IAF is holding some negotiations with the sellers and we'll just have to wait and watch how it unfolds.

[Kartik]

The squadron shortage issue is what it is.

12 aircrafts of a type slated for replacement by 2040 at the price of a new build Tejas is not a good option. In order to mitigate that shortage.

We may as well order extra 12 Tejas with the aircraft entering service when they do. Or order 12 extra MWFs for when they will enter service. Or add 12 additional aircrafts to the MRFA contract.

The M2000 have served us well. But time is approaching to let them go.

The keyword is immediate availability ... which is not possible with Mk1As i.e. the additional MK1As, if ordered now, will get scheduled for delivery atleast 3-4 years hence, after the delivery of 83 are completed. Why wait for it, when something is available now to bolster the falling Sqn levels?
But yes, the price has to be right!!

Also any further upgrades (Uttam-2000 plus DRFM-based indigenous ECM etc), would be of rolling upgrades in nature i.e. they will get upgraded while platform remains in active service, in parallel - so, minimal impact wrt maintaining the Orbat.
(Note: The upgrade program for all 48/50 M2Ks to the I/TI std concluded recently, IIRC 2020 or thereabouts)

And since M2K would be last platforms to be replaced by the Mk2s, so good 15years hence - additional shoring up of the numbers, makes ample sense.

Absolutely. Immediate to the point of reports for Indonesia stating that they were ready to be just flown to the base and ready to be flown for missions. Of course that's an exaggeration given Indonesian pilots needed training for Mirage-2000s, which the IAF doesn't. But the IAF can literally in a few months have these 12 ready to take on missions.

I can't believe that some folks can't seem to understand this! Ordering more Tejas Mk1As will do the IAF no good, because as things stand they haven't been able to get a single Tejas Mk1A delivered to them. Even if more are ordered (97 are already supposed to be ordered) it won't make any difference because HAL is not going to be able to deliver them before 2032 when the 180 are finally delivered. So how on earth will ordering any more Tejas Mk1As help address this urgent squadron shortage issue?

[Nikhil_Naya]

IMHO, the F15 SE while being a great aircraft is the logical equivalent of the Rambha and not an MRFA - unless we are again going to be a Heavy (Rambha + F15) and Light (Tejas all marks) - this is not going to probably happen.

[Rakesh]

Bingo @Nikhil_Naya.

@Kartik: Good Points.

[srai]

“Immediate availability” and Indian defense procurement bureaucracy

… unless somehow it can be squeezed in as another “emergency” purchase.

[Rakesh]

Vice Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal AP Singh Attends Joint Seminar

[Rakesh]

Amid rising Chinese activities, India clears major plans to build two military airfields in Lakshadweep
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 718211642/
18 July 2024

[Rakesh]

Leak exposes details of Russian-Indian S-400 deal
https://defence-blog.com/leak-exposes-d ... -400-deal/
23 July 2024

[VinodTK]

Ukraine Hacked Indian S-400 Data.

The hackers leaked the information pertaining to the sub systems and their numbers (including number of missiles).

[Rakesh]

ldev, is the earth still round?

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1816849885779345679 ---> Major success achieved by S-400 in exercise, almost entire enemy aircraft package ‘shot down’ by it. 80% strike rate, while rest had to abort missions.

S-400 air defence system 'shot down' almost entire 'enemy' package in exercise; major success for IAF
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 726195537/
26 July 2024

[sanman]

Another Indian weapons misfire incident at the Pak border -- disturbing trend?



Every time such mishaps happen, then established powers pounce on it, to portray India as some immature incompetent country that cannot be trusted with dangerous strike weapons.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/hvtiaf_bharat/status/1827378797894578186 ---> The balance rests on the Fulcrum.

[sanman]

Summary: Indian Air Force couldn't keep up their end of things, so other services will have to cover for them.

[sanman]

Yes, because like in ancient times only a knight can fight a knight., a king can fight a king,...

That's romanticized history. Actual history was "You go fight... I'll stay here and hold your coat... and keep your wife warm..."

Bottom line is that other systems can fill some gaps, but not all. There are reasons why nations seek air superiority. There are also reasons why we don't have it over China. We shouldn't romanticize it. We should instead look at the hard realities, including our deficiencies

[Rakesh]

Inside IAF’s Software Development Institute

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1832963579487650261 ---> The Boeing Apache that made an emergency landing at 12K feet in Ladakh in April 2024 has had the IAF do an arduous task to retrieve it. Finally a unique combination of engineering and ingenuity will get it back.

[VinodTK]

IAF officer files rape complaint with cops against Wing Commander

NEW DELHI: An IAF officer has filed a police complaint against a senior, accusing him of rape, outraging her modesty and continuous mental harassment at the Srinagar Air Force station in J&K, while also claiming that the "internal committee" of the force dismissed her allegations without proper consideration.
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[Aditya_V]

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1832963579487650261 ---> The Boeing Apache that made an emergency landing at 12K feet in Ladakh in April 2024 has had the IAF do an arduous task to retrieve it. Finally a unique combination of engineering and ingenuity will get

I think the IAF 3 MI 26 helicopters are in the process of being operational again, they have more heavylight capability than the Chinooks we have now, like after Kargil in 1999 when they airlifted Bulldozers to the Kargil area, they can undertake such airlift.

[eklavya]

Vice Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal Amar Preet Singh appointed as next Chief of the Air Staff

Ministry of Defence

Vice Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal Amar Preet Singh appointed as next Chief of the Air Staff
Posted On: 21 SEP 2024 1:37PM by PIB Delhi

The Government has appointed Air Marshal Amar Preet Singh, PVSM, AVSM, presently serving as Vice Chief of the Air Staff, as the next Chief of the Air Staff, in the rank of Air Chief Marshal, with effect from the afternoon of September 30, 2024. The present Chief of the Air Staff Air Chief Marshal Vivek Ram Chaudhari, PVSM, AVSM, VM, ADC demits office on September 30, 2024.

Born on October 27, 1964, Air Marshal Amar Preet Singh was commissioned into the fighter pilot stream of the Indian Air Force in December 1984. During his long and distinguished service spanning nearly 40 years, he has served in a variety of Command, Staff, Instructional and Foreign appointments.

An alumnus of the National Defence Academy, Defence Services Staff College and National Defence College, the Air Officer is a Qualified Flying Instructor and an Experimental Test Pilot with more than 5,000 hours of flying experience on a variety of fixed and rotary wing aircraft.

During his career, the officer has commanded an operational fighter squadron and a frontline air base. As a test pilot, he led the MiG-29 Upgrade Project Management Team at Moscow, Russia. He was also the Project Director (Flight Test) at National Flight Test Centre and was tasked with flight testing of the Light Combat Aircraft, Tejas. He has held important staff appointments of Air Defence Commander at South Western Air Command and Senior Air Staff Officer at Eastern Air Command. Prior to assuming the charge of Vice Chief of the Air Staff, he was the Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief of Central Air Command.

[ramana]

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1832963579487650261 ---> The Boeing Apache that made an emergency landing at 12K feet in Ladakh in April 2024 has had the IAF do an arduous task to retrieve it. Finally a unique combination of engineering and ingenuity will get it back.

IDRW reports the Apache was retrieved to Leh.
Not posting link as they have a caution not to post their stuff despite copying from everywhere!

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1832963579487650261 ---> The Boeing Apache that made an emergency landing at 12K feet in Ladakh in April 2024 has had the IAF do an arduous task to retrieve it. Finally a unique combination of engineering and ingenuity will get it back.

IDRW reports the Apache was retrieved to Leh.
Not posting link as they have a caution not to post their stuff despite copying from everywhere!

I have the link for the pictures for the dismantled Apache at Leh. Will post soon.

[Prem Kumar]

MQ-9B crash. Apache crash

Whenever this has happened with homegrown platforms, entire fleets have been grounded

But Amrikan maal must be good onlee, no. So, lets buy more of these gold-plated useless toys that will not be used in battle, nor will they actually survive one

Our military is increasingly looking like that of the Saudis, Argentines etc - a bazaar full of exotic, imported toys - but with no plans to fight a war

[Rakesh]

IDRW reports the Apache was retrieved to Leh.
Not posting link as they have a caution not to post their stuff despite copying from everywhere!

I have the link for the pictures for the dismantled Apache at Leh. Will post soon.

IAF to retrieve Apache from Ladakh on truck
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... -on-truck/
09 Sept 2024

Reps for Boeing (manufacturer of the Apache) are in the picture below. That is why faces are hidden, but it is done across all the images (of even IAF personnel) to remove doubt.

https://x.com/Duorope/status/1838048945345364399 ---> Indian Air Force AH-64E Apache has been retrieved from the Khardung La region by a team of specialist mountaineers and engineers. The copter had carried out a precautionary landing during an operational sortie in April this year.

[Rakesh]

Drumming up noise for additional Su-30MKIs + completing the Rambha upgrade in a timely manner. Let's see if Air HQ bites on the former.

Russia Hones Su-30SM Fighters For Coastal Defense Ops To Eliminate Drone Threats; Vital Lessons For IAF?
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/russia-ho ... or-coasta/
24 Sept 2024

Russian Navy Su-30SM, an analog of the IAF’s Su-30MKI, is playing a critical role in defending Russian territory, particularly the Crimean peninsula, from attacks by Ukrainian forces.

[Rakesh]

MQ-9B crash. Apache crash

Whenever this has happened with homegrown platforms, entire fleets have been grounded

But Amrikan maal must be good onlee, no. So, lets buy more of these gold-plated useless toys that will not be used in battle, nor will they actually survive one

Our military is increasingly looking like that of the Saudis, Argentines etc - a bazaar full of exotic, imported toys - but with no plans to fight a war

Saar, be wary of criticizing Amreeki maal. You will be accused of being narrow minded and unable to see the *BIG* picture

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ObesityWeek/status/1834638296166928469 ---> Air Marshal SP Dharkar has been appointed as the next Vice Chief of Air Staff (VCAS). He would be succeeding Air Marshal AP Singh who has been designated as the next Chief of Air Staff (CAS). Air Marshal Dharkar is presently the Eastern Air Commander in Shillong, Meghalaya.