Project 75I - It Begins

[Rakesh]

1.Then the question is VLS for conventional sub a bit of an overkill given that there is much testing and tested cruise missile firing capabilities via the torpedo tubes.

2.And the VLS will be restricted only to Nuclear Subs going forward!!

3.Should we be reconfiguring our production/testing of some missiles and future ones to be fit for tube firing? And the regular ones for Nuclear VLS!!

1.Not necessarily SRajesh. The better way to put it would be ---> VLS is necessary for the new batch of diesel electric submarines that will be coming. This is however a stop-gap, till Project 75 Alpha starts entering service. That is the ideal and end goal. However till then, the diesel electric boat will have to shoulder that role i.e. power projection.

2.Not really Saar, as explained above in Point 1. In addition, who knows what technology is available in the future that makes a VLS cell for a SSK still viable? I believe Naval Group (if I am not mistaken) had a concept that can shoot down an ASW helicopter (during ASuW ops). The missile - sealed inside a container - is fired horizontally (but the canister comes out of the sub's sail vertically) and then heads towards the target. Here is the video ---> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIGl42ELB_A

We are limited only by our imagination with a VLS cell or a torpedo tube i.e. UUVs, drones, etc.

3.Both BrahMos and Nirbhay have ship and submarine launched variants in various stages of development.

On surface vessels, BrahMos is able to be launched both vertically and at a 45 (I believe) degree angle (check out the 8 cell layout of the Delhi Class). But there is no range deficiency when launched horizontally or even at an angle. Even Su-30MKI launches the Brahmos-A horizontally and not vertically So much for that theory of range deficiency! On surface vessels, Nirbhay will be launched vertically. I believe that is what the upcoming LR-LACM (Long Range-Land Attack Cruise Missile) is. Lets see how that pans out, once the LR-LACM conducts a few test flights.

In sub-surface vessels, BrahMos is launched only in vertical mode. In sub-surface vessels, the SLCM (a miniaturized Nirbhay) is being designed to be launched from the torpedo tubes, so horizontally. The first test firing will occur on a Sindhughosh Class submarine. Advertised range is 500 km and a longer range version of 800 km is also planned. But range deficiency of Nirbhay-S (my term) will not be there, regardless of launch mode. If the Americans can do this with Tomahawk Block IV, then what stop us really?

============================================

The theory that there is range deficiency from torpedo lunch versus vertical launch, is disproven. The Americans have achieved 1,600 km range with a horizontally launched, subsonic cruise missile and which is identical to the range, if launched vertically. This idea of It-must-be-BrahMos-and-nothing-else is foolishness. By this logic, we should add BrahMos to the Gaj Class tugboats that serve in the Indian Navy as well! And also the miniature special forces submarine that is being designed & developed by DRDO and that too in VLS mode

You cannot mount BrahMos onto every platform out there. You have to be judicious and practical.

[Rakesh]

One way or the other the answer is not clear cut. A submarine is a series of compromises.

Shooting cruise missiles from torpedo tubes reduces the availability of torpedoes on the torpedo racks of the submarine.

Shooting cruise missiles from VLS adds displacement, That in turn results in a requirement for a more powerful propulsion plant.

It is indeed a series of compromises, but that applies largely to the Kalvari Class boats.

Future diesel-electric boats will negate those compromises. There will be no AIP plug OR Li-Ion plug to deal with, as the boat will come with that system on the drawing board itself. Same with the VLS cell. And with a more powerful and efficient diesel engine to handle the extra weight.

But what should not be done is run off on some flight-of-fancy, science experiment and start modifying the Kalvari Class boat to handle an AIP plug + a Li-Ion battery plug + a VLS cell. And then to compensate for all that extra weight, then swap out the diesel engine for a more powerful one. Lets avoid that idea completely. By all means, add the DRDO AIP plug on-board the Kalvari Class for greater endurance and a new torpedo tube launched, cruise missile to replace the short-ranged SM-39 Exocet.

[Rakesh]

One advantage of VLS is that you can fire large diameter missiles that don't fit into 533mm tubes.

My guess is that with Nirbhay delayed, the Navy had no choice but to go for Brahmos.

Though, it might have been easier to go for 650mm tubes rather than VLS.

AFAIK, Project 75I will come only with 533mm torpedo tubes. And same with Project 76. But they will have VLS to accommodate larger diameter missiles. P-75I will come with a VLS plug, if not commissioned from day one with such a system on-board. But Project 76 will come with it from day one.

Each succeeding class will be bigger than the preceding class --->
Kalvari Class (6 boats) < Improved Kalvari Class (3 boats) < Project-75I (6 boats) < Project 76 (6 + 6 boats)

Project 75 Alpha (India's SSN) could likely feature a mixture of 533mm and 650mm tubes (for larger torpedoes), but definitely a VLS cell. Design inputs will have come in from the Russians and from the Akula SSN lease. The reactor output (190 MW) of P-75A is identical to that of the Akula SSN.

Both are required, BrahMos and Nirbhay. And both will be inducted across various platforms.

[Rakesh]

FWIW...three year old video on the S-80 Class submarine that is part of the P-75I contest.

THE S-80: The SPANISH MILITARY INDUSTRY’S EPIC FAIL

[uddu]

Even German subs faced issues
https://web.archive.org/web/20100112115 ... c06-52.php

The submarine is reportedly highly unstable while surfaced;
The air-independent propulsion system has lower output power than specified; the unit must be shut down after several hours of sailing due to higher than normal operating temperatures;
Increased propeller cavitations;
Attack periscope vibrates at speeds greater than 3 knots;
Seawater leakage into hydraulic systems;
Problems with the proper function of the flank arrays.

Hellenic Navy sources indicate that the sea service will not accept delivery until, at a minimum, the stability problem is resolved.

Navy's newest submarine 'underperforms'
'Son Won Ilham' noise is loud... “Key parts scheduled to be replaced”
https://www.chosun.com/site/data/html_d ... 00137.html
A military source said on the 14th, "I understand that the noise from the Son Won-il exceeds the standards set out in the contract by Germany's HDW, the original manufacturer of the submarine, and that Hyundai Heavy Industries, a domestic construction company , is planning to replace the propulsion shaft of the submarine's screw within next month."
Hyundai fixed it for South korea

Germany's own Submarine faced issues. Maintenance costs could be the reason.
Germany’s Entire Submarine Fleet Is Out of Commission
https://www.popularmechanics.com/milita ... ommission/

Germany sees continued issues with readiness of submarines, aircraft
https://www.euronews.com/2019/03/11/ger ... s-aircraft

Add to that Bribery scandals with Greece.

[Pratyush]

With the exception of installation and management of a diesel electric power plant on a submarine. The project resulting in the development of the Arihant has done everything else.

Yet India has not been able to solve that part of the equation. And design a submarine over the 25+ years of the life of the Arihant project.

[srin]

Has anyone tried using a (big) RTG as AIP in a diesel sub ? It is nuclear but not in the conventional sense ...

[Pratyush]

Has anyone tried using a (big) RTG as AIP in a diesel sub ? It is nuclear but not in the conventional sense ...

You might want to follow this thread on the airforce monthly forum from way back when.

https://www.key.aero/forum/modern-milit ... submarines

It has an interesting discussion on different types of AIP concept for a submarine. Including what you have asked for.

[Rakesh]

Even German subs faced issues
https://web.archive.org/web/20100112115 ... c06-52.php

Saar, it is phoren and it is western. All fine onlee.

[Rakesh]

With the exception of installation and management of a diesel electric power plant on a submarine. The project resulting in the development of the Arihant has done everything else.

Yet India has not been able to solve that part of the equation. And design a submarine over the 25+ years of the life of the Arihant project.

Can you please elaborate?

[Rakesh]

We know Naval Group is working with DRDO to incorporate the desi AIP onto the boat.

But I wonder if they are also meeting for Scorpene Evolved, for the next three boats.

Article on Scorpene Evolved ---> https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... ubmarines/

https://x.com/navalgroup/status/1808048040286028032 ---> We had the honour of hosting the @DRDO_India team at our sites last week. It was an occasion to discuss the progress of indigenous propulsion system integration to Kalvari Class submarines.

https://x.com/navalgroup/status/1808048044933366200 ---> Here's to deepening our cooperation with India in technology, capabilities and it's vital applications in naval defence.

[Pratyush]

Can you please elaborate?

1) Arihant was built. ( i.e, metal was shaped, stressed, welded, pipes were installed and welded, pressure bulkheads designed and certified)
2) It Submerges.
3) It Resurfaces.
4) It can navigate underwater.
5) Life support systems needed to keep the crue alive for the duration of its mission.
6) Functional weapon system, in shape of Sonar and torpedo tubes.
7) What it doesn't have is a diesel electric plant. With a battery bank. Because it's mission doesn't need that.

the skills that allow for points 1 to 6 are skills that are transferable to new submarine design you want to build.

[Rakesh]

Thank you Pratyush.

[fanne]

Not having new clear plant itself changes the whole game. It is like saying, men and women body are 95% identical, hence they are transferable to one another. (Not to say many of the techs for Arihant are not transferable, they are).

Any other means of powering - Diesel, AIP, battery (LA or LI) imposes severe restriction of the sub and ways have to be found to accommodate for it.
From charging, to resurfacing, to environment control, to cooling for freezer, tonnage, speed, you name it, everything has to change. Even tactics, what weapon you can carry etc etc all are dedicated by it. It is inherently a different beast to master. I would say, in one way, nuclear subs are much more easier (albeit costly) than SSKs once you have mastered the nuclear part of it. And the bummer is, apart from being difficult, SSN are waaaay better than SSK.

It is better to have 3 SSN than 6 or 9 SSK for say patrolling South China Sea. For areas around Indian subcontinent SSKs are the way to go.

[SRajesh]

Pratushji
But the issue is scale down model from 7,000 tones to 2,000 tons with diesel electric engine.
A brand new scale down design to metal cutting to sea trials you are looking at 10-15 years minimum the way our bean counters work.
And who will supply the diesel electric engine??
And the worst that can happen during the design and build face all sods and odds will be demanded and added on to make it into a modern day Kraken!! (like the Arjun saga!!)

[Rakesh]

That is the problem SRajesh. We don't have our own diesel engine. We will import that also, for an easy way out.

MTU Marine is the leader in the field. Kawasaki also makes diesel engines for the Japanese subs.
'
And just like Tejas, we will call Project 76 indigenious and pooh-pooh on foreign maal.

[Pratyush]

Are baba, what you are saying is a scaling issue. If x scale is achieved. Then x + and x - are not insurmountable.

DRDO has only now been asked for its inputs for an 80% indigenous SSK.

Now, looking at this development, I am drawing the following conclusion.

The design for both the 6000 tons SSN and 13500 tons SSBN are completed and the DRDO has sufficient confidence in its ability to ensure the development of the Indian SSK.

[Rakesh]

DRDO has only now been asked for its inputs for an 80% indigenous SSK.

Who is going to supply the diesel engine, as SRajesh asked?

With the Kalvari Class, we are at the mercy of MTU Marine.

With the Project 75I (either S-80 or U214/216) we are at the mercy of MTU Marine.

Regardless of AIP or Li-Ion battery, you still need a diesel engine for the SSK.

P.S. GE F414 is also only 80% ToT (actually assembly). The real magic is in the remaining 20%.

[Rakesh]

By the way, just something to consider ---> DRDO developed its own AIP system from the ground up. This is no small engineering feat. And the fact that Naval Group is willing to assist in the integration of that AIP Plug onto the Kalvari Class boat, speaks volumes about the viability of the system.

So is the fact that we don't have our own marine diesel for submarines (and other applications) borne out of a result of lack of intelligentsia within the country or the nonchalant attitude of why-to-develop, when-you-can-import?

We can do AIP for submarines, but no diesel powerplant for a submarine. We can land a rover on the South Pole of the Moon, but no marine diesel powerplant or low bypass turbofan. We can send satellites into space on PSLVs and GSLVs, but no marine diesel powerplant or low bypass turbofan or design & develop a rifle for the Armed Forces.

Priorities?

[Pratyush]

Rakesh, I don't know who is supplying the Diesel engine.

I am hoping that DRDO pulls a stinker and copies the diesel electric plant from the kilo class.

[Rakesh]

Project 76 diesel engine will be supplied from MTU Marine only, unless the tubelight turns on in someone's head in India and decides to develop our own. We are fooling ourselves onlee, if we have the audacity to call Project 76 indigenous, but with a foreign diesel engine.

[Pratyush]

I will be happy with the indigenous SSK with an imported engine. If it's not sanctioned by the stupid Germans.

Or stupid us, that we will leave our testimonials in firangi hands.

[SRajesh]

Pratyushji
I totally understand your logic : If we are able to upscale why cant we miniaturise!!
Two issues there :
1. Funding especially sustained funding during the development and maturation phase
2. Freezing design after x number of days following the inputs from the enduser with a guarantee no unnecessary things would be requested/demanded.
And the other is the engine as Rakesh says (to paraphrase an old hindi movie) Kaun sa/kahan say/Aur Kab tak milegaa!!!
We need three core engine tech saar:
1.Aircraft Engine
2.Marine Engine
3.Tank Engine
We are happy to buy readymade goods or so called TOT and screwdrivergiri or tom tom Atmanirbhar ToT but onlee Assembly
We dont want to steal as we are Vishwaguru and follow Dharma
We are ready to pay billions and get shafted in the name of ToT or even if its supplied we let it collect dust in some gobermint warehouse (like what we did with bofors for a long time)!!

[Rakesh]

I will be happy with the indigenous SSK with an imported engine. If it's not sanctioned by the stupid Germans.

The above sentence is such a contradiction. It is symptomatic of what ails our armed forces.

How is a SSK indigenous, if she has an imported diesel engine? The most key component of that boat is foreign. What is the point of an indigenous sonar or other sensors, indigenous weapons...if the boat cannot move (due to lack of spares from an embargo)?

Only in India, do we assign "indigenous" percentages to products and platforms. This thinking is what needs to end.

It is either 100% indigenous or it is a phoren product, like how Tejas is. Who are we fooling, if not ourselves?

[Pratyush]

Hey don't shoot the messenger. I am only stating the obvious.

The whole P75I is a stupid project by my understanding of what is being sought for it. But it has been going on for the last 10 years.

If the DRDO has been asked to provide a viability report for P76. I will take it as a sign of progress. Over the stupidity of P75. If the next one turns out to be as stupid as this one. Then what to do?

[Rakesh]

Saar, my goal was not to shoot you...but to highlight the thinking of what is going on in the MoD. What you said above - 80% indigenous - encapsulates it perfectly. So a perpetual cycle of import, even if it is just a sub-system. In the case, a marine diesel engine is a key component. But that is the issue with everything we import, isn't it? All the key components come in sealed black boxes, which we just install on board.

Before they move on to Project 75I, Project 76 or whatever else...the first thing they need to do is start R&D on a marine diesel. But we won't do that, will we? Make in India should be renamed as Assembled in India. That would be a more apt term, for the comedy that is going on.

[Rakesh]

One of the first steps to reducing dependence on MTU Marine for the Kalvari Class and Project 75I boats, would be to setup a MRO facility for these diesel powerplants. Just like how one is being setup for the Rafale (by Dassault) and for the M88 (by Safran). MRO facilities are worth their weight in gold. There is nothing like doing MRO in-house, rather than waiting for spares/components and the skilled manpower to come from abroad. Such a facility should be "quid-pro-quo" for a P-75I contract i.e. a mandatory offset.

Secondly, the components that encounter the highest level of wear & tear on these MTU diesels, need to be indigenized. The IAF is conducting a similar feasibility study for their CH-47 Chinook and AH-64 Apache fleets. This will also greatly assist in the R&D of our own marine diesel powerplant.

We can do this. We have the brainpower, manpower and the financial resources. What is lacking is vision, both politically and militarily.

[SRajesh]

Again no mention of where the engine will come from or how that will be addressed!

[Rakesh]

Indigenous submarine with phoren diesel engine.

Atmanirbhar Bharat just like Tejas

[Pratyush]

Indigenous submarine with phoren diesel engine.

Atmanirbhar Bharat just like Tejas

How difficult it would be to adapt one of the under licence built Alco diesel engine that is used by the Railways for a submarine diesel electric application?

From all indications it's a reliable power plant with 100s of millions of hours of reliable service. It is already a complete diesel electric plant. All the tooling needed to build that plant should be in place.

What it's lacking is silencing for submarine operations. How difficult would it be to add that capacity to the powerplant?

PS: UK Upholder class submarines of late cold war were built using an adapted railway powerplant. But it was not successful because UK being UK couldn't design a reliable diesel electric plant even for railway application. During that time period. Or even today.

[SRajesh]

Pratushji
This is an answer from Marine Engineer about adapting Railway Engine:Not really. Submarines have several different propulsion systems depending on the design intent. Some are direct drive with a motor/generator set mounted on the drive shaft via a clutch, others are diesel-electric where the electric motor is connected to the drive shaft but the diesel engine iteslf isn’t.

Here’s the propulsion train of a nuclear submarine, where the motor/generator set mounted on the shaft can be seen, along with the main steam turbine, turbo generators and the nuclear reactor. A diesel-electric one is explained later, but this is essentially very similar.


In this case the turbo generator can drive the main shaft motor when it is declutched from the geared main propulsion turbine. Under normal circumstances the main turbine is direct drive (via the gearbox) to the propulsion shaft and propeller, during which operation the propulsion motor acts as a generator to charge the batteries, which of course the turbo-generator can also do - a bit belt and braces, but good for redundancy when you are a long way down. I’m not sure what the small M/G set is for on the green line however, though it’s probably a different voltage to the coolant pumps and yet another backup against losing the main coolant pump for the reactor, which is not something you want to happen. The reactor uses its cooling water (pressurised so that it doesn’t flash off to steam) to create “safe” steam in a steam-steam generator. This steam drives the turbines, is exhausted to the condenser (cooled with raw seawater) and returned to the “boiler” via the feed pump. Somehow this water doesn’t get irradiated by the steam generator! The steam produced by the generator is saturated steam and therefore not as efficient as superheated steam, but with nuclear propulsion, no one is trying to save on the fuel bil…

Wartime and post-war diesel submarines used this form of propulsion and battery charging system, though of course with a diesel engine driving the shaft and the M/G set situated on it. On the surface or when snorkeling, the diesel drove the M/G set on the shaft and thence the propellers - ie direct drive to the propeller. The M/G set acted as a generator and charged the batteries. Once submerged with the diesel shut down, the M/G set on the shaft switched over to motor mode and, powered by the batteries, drove the shaft (declutched from the diesel) to power the shaft.

Other submarines - both nuclear and diesel - were electric drive solely, ie the turbine generator drove the shaft electrically via a separate shaft motor and also charged the batteries. Once submerged on diesel boats, the motor just did the same but via the batteries rather than the diesel. On a nuke, the situation stayed the same as on the surface as there is no need to shut the turbines down when submerged.

The latest AIE submarines are also diesel electric. On the surface they may either drive and electric motor or be direct drive with an M/G set as above. Once submerged the diesel is shut down and the Air Independent Engine charges the batteries (without fresh air of course) and possibly the M/G set as a motor. Under these conditions the submerged speed is very low, but the range and duration submerged is improved. On pure battery power these submarines are very fast submerged - upwards of 20knots - but this quickly depletes the battery power, necessitating a period of slow speed on the AIE to charge them. Currently they can stay submerged for around 3 weeks (compared to a WW2 submarine of around a day or so) as they have CO2 scrubbers and O2 generators running off the internal systems. I’m no expert on them, but from what I’ve read, and intuition, that’s how they work.

[SRajesh]

and this is another answer:
Modern conventional submarines are true diesel electric only - there is no mechanical connection between the diesels and the propellor(S) - the diesels charge the batteries and/or send power direct to the electric drive motor(s)

And modern subs usually have a higher top speed travelling underwater than they do on the surface anyway

[fanne]

Repost

Is Sindhudhvaj (S 56) retired or is it he test bed for AIP? It was the original test bed submarine, where most new non Russian (mostly Indian) systems were tested. IN had said that they will only fit 'tested AIP' in Kalvery class subs. Can one assume that the testing has completed in Kilo class or that is just wishful thinking. It is being indeed tested first time in Kalveri class sub. What about indigenous LIB? These batteries are considered dangerous to operate and unless one develops tech around it to mitigate it, it means nothing (Japanese/korean navies have done that, perhaps years of effort).




https://www.ajaishukla.com/2022/07/ins- ... or-at.html

Business Standard, 18th July 22
At sunset on Saturday, with an overcast sky adding to the solemnity of the occasion, the decommissioning pennant of Indian Naval Ship (INS) Sindhudhvaj was lowered and the Kilo-class submarine retired after 35 years of distinguished service.

One more Kilo-class submarine is earmarked to be given to the Defence Research & Development Organisation for use as a test-bed in developing the air-independent propulsion that will power 12 indigenous submarines to be built in the future.

“Sindhudhvaj, as the name suggests, was the flag bearer of indigenisation and the Indian Navy's efforts towards achieving Atmanirbharta in the Russian-built Sindhughosh-class submarine,” said the navy.
“She had many a firsts to her credit including operationalisation of the indigenised sonar USHUS, the indigenised satellite communication systems, Rukmani and MSS, an inertial navigation system and an indigenised torpedo fire control system,” it said.
The Sindhudhvaj successfully undertook mating of the boat with the Deep Submergence Rescue Vessel (DSRV) and was the only submarine to be awarded a trophy for innovation by Prime Minister Narendra Modi.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1810934523510579312 ---> Not the final design, but a sneak look at what the MDL-TKMS offering for Indian Navy's P-75I requirement could resemble. Angular design for enhanced stealth. TKMS says older 'round designs' offer limited stealth. TKMS detection analysis of the new design on offer against conventional classical design on older submarines. The Indian P 75I submarine will have both AIP and Lithium Ion battery for enhanced performance.

[maitya]

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1810934523510579312 --->
<snip>
The Indian P 75I submarine will have both AIP and Lithium Ion battery for enhanced performance.
<snip>

That means LIB replacing LAB, that helps with the dash scenarios - and the FCAIP providing the usual "hotel consumption" based submerged endurance of minm 2+ weeks.
If only there were some speculation about the displacement, and the propulsive mechanism (skewed propellers or pump-jet etc), that would indeed have been great ...
But whatever it is, we need to be ready to shell out top-dollars for this ...

[Rakesh]

That means LIB replacing LAB, that helps with the dash scenarios - and the FCAIP providing the usual "hotel consumption" based submerged endurance of minm 2+ weeks.
If only there were some speculation about the displacement, and the propulsive mechanism (skewed propellers or pump-jet etc), that would indeed have been great ...
But whatever it is, we need to be ready to shell out top-dollars for this ...

The FCAIP will be along the lines of the Invincible Class (Type 218SG) of the Republic of Singapore Navy (RSN). So an Indian version will likely be called as the Type 216IN or something along those lines. But similar setup, just larger in dimensions.

And you are correct....we will shell out top dollars for this new toy. In light of the enhanced performance with the TMKS offer, I don't see how Navantia is going to win with the S-80 Class. No wonder the Indian Navy cajoled TKMS to get back into the contest. But what is worse than shelling out top dollars, is that the Germans will give us nothing of value. We will rinse and repeat again with Project 76.

[SRajesh]

Shoot and scoot scenarios, how much strain do they impart on the LIB lifecycle??:
This from thyssenkrupp:
Show up as little as possible – don’t blow you cover. This could be easier for submarine commanders in the future, explains one of the responsible: “How long the new battery lasts depends on the speed at which the boat cruises.
And :
cycling, elevated temperature and aging decrease the performance over time.

[fanne]

i disagree, the offer of earlier 209 did really come with real ToT (don't know how real it will be this time). Two other players S korea and Turkey, both indigenized that design and produced more capable follow on boats (so much so that on paper, SK boat that was offered to us was most capable- on paper that is). R gandi and VP Singh did us in. As usual, IN played along, it did drop the ball for both 209 and Scorpene. We shelled top dollars and cannot built any extra one even if our life depended on it. We cannot even overhaul it or maintain it on our own I guess.

It is really poor leadership, there was no one nodal agency that would have coordinated the IN needs, with Germany/France, with local manufacturers, Other SME and concluded on a deal which had the following (I am providing free consulting - anyone interested?)

- The best offer that met IN needs (minimum needs, not the best boat, but other criterias listed below)
-The best ToT
- What was not offered, private/govt player learning that tech with a roadmap (or sourced from different player, say engine is no no for Germans, are tha Japenese willing to give one)
- Enough flexibility for us to plug and play with parts (like for aircraft, we owning the mission computer), so that we can do with other parts for which ToT is denied
-End goal, make 100% of that sub on our own at the end, even if some parts are imported (but we have the flexibility and capability at a later stage to mount a different system). Like LCA, even though 40% of the part is still imported, we can work around that. If nat for UK ejection seat, we can put russian etc etc. Even in the worst case, the engine can be rd-33/ EJ-2000, that may make the plane suck a little bit, may delay it but wont kill it.

What it will do is, give an option to iterate that design and take it to the next level. We may have some of it already with Scorpene. I would not mess with the design, but substitute parts- homegrown of foreign (where cheap or better)

[srai]

^^^
GoI/MoD and IN along with MDL had 20-years (2005) to work with DCNS on “Scorpene-2” P75A design with more “indigenous”/MII content.

But instead, hopelessly pursuing P-75I for all that time.

[Aditya_V]

^^^
GoI/MoD and IN along with MDL had 20-years (2005) to work with DCNS on “Scorpene-2” P75A design with more “indigenous”/MII content.

But instead, hopelessly pursuing P-75I for all that time.

There is something called Price Gouging from foreign suppliers, GOI needs to show alternatives while the Desi AIP gets ready.. If the French Spanish group do not want to transfer key tech. I think we are in discuss with the French on Sub tech , some of which we will use in our SSN, SSBN, Jet engine, Rafale, Helicopter engines. No accident now GTRE engine is going on LCA LSP variants. A lot of it possibly cannot be put out in the public domain. And it is also clear, there are a lot of Foreign players who have influence on key Indian players to scuttle anything good, they close copper plants, sabotage dams etc. So it's like threading a needle to get the best deal