CT & COIN Operations in India: News, Images and Discussion

[Manish_P]

From TOI - https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 642706.cms

Heavy rain has made aerial surveillance through drones and helicopters difficult.
...
The terrorists, believed to be a group of three, positioned themselves at two spots on a hill and took cover in thick foliage to surprise the troops with grenades and gunshots when the trucks were negotiating a bend on Machedi-Kindli-Malhar road around 3.30pm.
...

[Aditya_V]

I guess Hidden Remote cameras, Drone coverage whenever possible, giving Pakis a Bloody nose with Artillery, some of the options we must use to make sure such pests are stopped. But unless Pakis feel the pressure, they will keep trying sending some of these.

if they can target our miltary trucks and civilian buses, their helicopters, troop carrying Buses, military installations are all fair game.

[Manish_P]

They are never going to stop. And we can't stop them completely since the border areas are very challenging to close out completely. They will slip through every now and then. Even if by any chance we manage to close the western border there is a huge open border on the east.

So we have to keep hitting them. Round the year.

Our Economy is growing. A jihadi might come cheaper than a shell or a drone. We can afford it (look at our auto industry and compared to theirs) - economies of scale will kick in even more if the shell, the gun, the drones are made in India.

We really have no other choice.

[brvarsh]

Its all about cost. As cost to eliminate drops and cost to cross becomes high, it will not only stop on its own, but it would turn back on the other side against the Pakistani establishment. But holistically the areas around Military vehicle movements need to be 24x7 observed through drones.

[Prem Kumar]

Economics alone is a good enough reason to kill them in Pakistan

1) Cost of offense is 1/10 that of defense
2) Cost of tightening the defense from 98% to 99% is 10X the cost of tightening it from 20% to 40%

Even if we hit Pakis year-around with millions of shells, bombs & bullets, it will cost us a fraction of what it is costing us now

So, I don't understand some naysayers who want to wait till we are a $5 Trillion economy and what-not. Proactively hitting Pakis hard will accelerate our growth both because of the MIL-complex but also because there are fewer jihadis slowing us down. This also has the added benefit of widening the chasm between us and the Pukes

Its a win, whichever way we look at it

[drnayar]

why are we thinking pakis are not getting their due ... the sudden pickup is the IMF bailout no doubt about where those billions go

[Manish_P]

why are we thinking pakis are not getting their due ... the sudden pickup is the IMF bailout no doubt about where those billions go

King Khan is busy with Russia now. After that he will move on to China.

Then he will come for us

So we have say 2-3 decades to dismember jihadistan and put each piece below sub-saharan levels before the US needs them and restarts the money train (it is a money truck at the moment).

[Prem Kumar]

Very true

1) We should always be prepared to dismember & de-nuclearize Pakistan
2) When the opportunity arises, grab with both hands

Luck = Preparation + Opportunity

[venkat_kv]

Napumsaks console & condemn. Kshatriyas avenge. Modi, Rajnath & Shah have to decide which category they fall under

But after seeing repeated, below-the-threshold killing of our troops in Poonch/Rajouri last year, the terror attack in Reasi that killed 10 Hindus (& Modi not opening his mouth about it) and the latest killing --> I have lost hope that this Govt will do anything besides Kadi Ninda

Modi 3.0, for all its talk of aggression & 100-day-plan, is displaying early indications that it will be worse than Modi 2.0 on the security front

Like I said 1 post above, Surgical Strikes are considered as a gold-plated option, not as a policy change. And our Armed Forces Leadership would have conveyed that they are incapable of going up the escalation ladder when faced with a 2-front situation. All their 2.5-front-readiness is only bluster. Our war-fighting readiness is in shambles, thanks to lazy, incompetent & possibly corrupt people at the top for decades

What we are seeing is a reality-check of our lack of Kshatriyata as a nation

Prem kumar Saar,
While i share your disappointment over non action for these terror attacks that are designed to be below a certain threshold level, I think you are not following the news cycle properly, the attack in reasi on hindu pilgrims was spoken by the PM and said that india will respond.

I would argue that the govt is already handling the issue with ogw (over ground workers) being identified and the J&K governor bringing in the ordinance for the same. The givt I think would woant the local police and militia to step up and leave the army for the border and war related issues. It is going to take time and we will eventually get there.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 966702.cms

https://www.deccanherald.com/india/jamm ... in-3077752

There is the issue of the forest bordering the attacks route which allows the terrorists to "slip away". It will take a while to neutralize these vermins due to the terrain.

Surgical strike means crossing border and it has it own ramifications if that becomes SOP after every terror attack which is one reason why i don't think they are doing it every time as some members of the forum want to see happen..

The govt is not going to cancel the ceasefire agreemnet till something major happens. Till then the vermins will keep coming and unknown gunmen will keep working. They had bumped off the retired Brigadier Amir Hamza after the reasi attack. This is the most recent case of a retired paki officer in uniform targeted, most of the unknown gunmen killing were all of the terrorists in hiding, this has been the case of paki officer targeted.

We are getting to the point where the uniform cadre in pakistan is getting a traget painted on their backs and most of them have been on the money as having directed the attacks in the past or recednt ones.

The American support to the Paki establishment after democrats took over cannot be understated along with the IMF loan money. they will be back to begging again in a year once the money is up and will have to send their men to fight in ukraine for more money.

till then, gird up and clean the internal security apparatus is the mantra they seem to be following.

[Prem Kumar]

4 Soldiers killed today in Doda encounter. Suspected 60 terrorists, trained in jungle warfare, are in Jammu

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/d ... 2024-07-16

Modi, Rajnath & Shah - not to mention our Armed Forces Leadership, have blood on their hands. They repeatedly knew & gave interviews to our media that there are 60 terrorists in launchpads, 100 waiting in PoK to cross over etc, but none of these worthies has the balls to bomb them in Pakistan. Now, we have a crisis. Modi doesn't utter a word and Rajnath does his Kadi Ninda

Guess Balakot is for show only, during election time

If Modi won't act, he might as well bloody resign!

[Pratyush]

Guys,

Trust Modi to be a politician. As a politician, he will do everything to further his interests. Not responding to such attacks over a long period of time is not good for his political interests.

So relax and take a deep breath. For a response is sure to follow.

[nits]

Modi 3.0 is soon turning into UPA 2.0; now they have even stopped doing Kadi Ninda - forget any action....

We have lost 20-25 Bravehearts in the last few months and there is just no response. Modus Operandi remains the same. What is alarming is this is not happening in Vallet but in Jammu which we successfully carved out from militancy and was peaceful. We knew this will happen as Gov is now in mood to conduct elections and still we are caught unprepared

Militancy has changed the turf to Jammu from Valley, and we are on backfoot; i hope it's not a diversional tactic and irrespective of that we look so helpless - this deafening silence from Delhi does no good at all - We must make them PAY

[S_Madhukar]

You see the default is for us to be on the back foot. Because we have to show we are a stable country for investment to come over and stay in the country for our economic development. For that these pin pricks will have to be suffered, innocent lives lost so that the bloodlust and relevance of some actors are carried on. We have no support globally and Hindoos are sacrificial cows . Anyway this 3rd term is legacy term so Buddha will smile and not much else because hey we gave the world Buddha and not Yudh so everyone and everything must act naarmal onlee . Once ops are done this time what’s the guarantee it won’t happen next year ? 99ers are showing off and so are these mullahs

[Pratyush]

Anyway this 3rd term is legacy term so Buddha will smile and not much else

What kind of legacy will it be, when he is spoken as a second MMS?

If legacy is in question, then he has to leave behind a strong and prosperous country.

[mody]

The SOPs for engaging with terrorists needs to change. It seems most of the times once they know that the police and soldiers are near, they set up an ambush or wait with sniper type rifles to take a fatal shot at the leading soldiers or spring the ambush on the leading party. The resulting casualties tends to slow down the forces as they try to assess the situation and figure our where the fire is coming from etc. giving a chance for the pigs to try to make an escape.
The terrain in the jungles on Jammu region is difficult and the current crop of terrorists seem to have been specially trained in jungle warfare and down their homework in the areas in which they are operating.
We should be using drones with good surveillance cameras including infrared and armed drones that can drop grenades or fire small arms to accompany the surveillance drones.

In one of the previous attacks, we lost a para commando, who was leading from the front and the terrorists once they knew that soldiers were approaching were lying in wait for the perfect shot at the leading party.

In terms of retaliation, all options should be explored, including going across the border and eliminating regular paki soldiers. At least 50 should be eliminated to avenge for the recent terror attacks.

[Prem Kumar]

I would like to trust that Modi will do something (after all, before him, there were no surgical strikes)

But one cannot live on past glory. Something definitely happened behind the scenes after Balakot and subsequently Galwan. We are not retaliating like we should have.

In no particular order, here are the list of reasons for the same. Any/all of these could be the drivers. These may not all be Modi's thought-processes but could be from people who influence him (many of whom might be C-system peaceniks):

1) Maintain the lie that Article 370 has brought peace to the valley. If Modi & Shah make a big noise about terror attacks, then they are admitting that they declared victory prematurely. This would also mean puncturing their own fantasies that Kashmiri Muslims have suddenly become Desh-Bhakts
2) One-sided respect for LoC ceasefire
3) Inability to control the escalation ladder vis-a-vis Pakistan: AEW, BVRAAM etc
4) Inability to manage a 2-front war, the blusters by our successive Armed Forces Chiefs notwithstanding
5) Surgical Strikes as gold-plated options - to be used once every 5 years, instead of as a policy of unrelenting, pro-active actions
6) Willingness to accept below-the-threshold casualties
7) Focus on defense (COIN) than offense (surgical strike) - Manmohan'itis
8 ) Over-emphasis on Vikas and looking upon these attacks as nothing more than annoyances that is undeserving of the PM's time
9) Worrying that an escalation will disrupt Vikas agenda & economic growth --> Japan-model of becoming economically but not militarily strong
10) Calculating that the public will forget these attacks and don't care for retribution - hence there is no political price for ignoring "pinpricks"
11) Convincing oneself that "unknown-gunmen" action in Pakiland, Taliban & Balochi attacks on Paki Army is sufficient retribution
12) Pressure from Unkil (post Balakot) & unfavorable relations with them under Biden. Maybe awaiting a regime change in the US. I wouldn't be surprised if the evil deep-state of the US is helping Pakis with COMINT/SIGINT/Satellite Imagery to help infiltration. This would be to keep India off-balance, will be to teach India a lesson on unknown-gunmen operating in the US & would be to remove sheen off Modi

[MeshaVishwas]

Om shanti.
RMji should resign.

[mody]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/do ... f157c&ei=8

Lessons from the Doda encounter

[sajaym]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/do ... f157c&ei=8

Lessons from the Doda encounter

a ballistic helmet equipped with mounts for night vision devices and lightweight body armour. Night vision goggles improve visibility in low-light conditions while thermal imaging devices detect heat signatures in dense foliage. Additional necessities include a headlamp with a red filter, a rugged GPS device featuring topographical maps, a compass and waterproof maps for navigation. Secure-channel radios and signal flares ensure reliable communication, while suppressed firearms with laser sights

All these have been standard equipment of the regular infantry soldier of many of the modern armies since the 1st Gulf War. It is only our army which still doesn't use or probably rations these items among its soldiers in some random manner. The result is that our 'Bravehearts' turn up for a firefight less equipped than the terrorists and then attain 'Veergati' and get an 'Om shanti' from the aam aadmi and then the same sad cycle continues...rince repeat. I've been crying hoarse for ages as to why our soldiers STILL have iron sights on their guns instead of a red dot sights. That SINGLE piece of equipment can be a game changer for the infantry soldier.... allowing him to scan the area ahead of him and land a kill shot ASAP. But NO! The army wants Apache helicopters (which it won't use in encounters like these) , M777 howitzers (which it won't use in encounters like these), STRYKERS (which it won't use in encounters like these)...and so all those multi-million dollar gold-plated equipments are sitting in hangars while the ordinary infantry soldiers are getting killed like flies!

[fanne]

I am surprised and disappointed and the response of BR (learned) members. Mad at some of the holier than thau people.
Our response can be more than surgical strike and balakon style air strike (not that these are bad options).
What do you think unknown man striking + known man striking in the land of pure is. Only last week a serving brigadier booked his 72. And see the mirror response (doesn’t have to be) of attacks on us, yet a bigger attack on the land of pure cantonment. No less than dekho ankh a lady said we paid 10 million to get the work done.
Now Modi ji should get these Br posters, put them in his lap, take a chumma and say see we are doing it, then they will believe.

As for these not stopping attack on us. Surgical strike or Balakot also did not stop the attacks. What these BR poster suggest? Drop new clear detergent? Then they will cry that the radiation winds are crossing the border.

Something has shifted on the tsp side in last few months (imvho). Either their uncle has asked to needle, or tsp itself is doing something or it is thrawt Amarnath Yatra or upcoming assembly election(per supreme kotha, it should be done before Sept of this year).

This is war, there will be loses. Yes it hurts very badly and something additional should be done. Please suggest creative ways. We are winning this war (have been for last few decades), the approach suggested should not upend that strategy.

[Manish_P]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/do ... f157c&ei=8

Lessons from the Doda encounter

Night encounters/fighting is not something new that our forces are facing now. Lessons were learnt more than a decade ago at least. And SOPs crafted accordingly.

It is difficult to reconcile that our highly disciplined forces would have broken them. But sometimes the heat of battle and desire to avenge your fallen comrades overrides caution...

[S_Madhukar]

Rakshaks are only concerned that 5th largest tomtoming economy can't equip its frontline troops... yes all of JK is frontline unfortunately. Would I see unequipped Cheeni in Xinjiang ? No ? Do I see these aatankvaadis in salwar kameez with just with 1 AK and some dry fruits? No. They have decided M4 is good for them while we debate SIG/AK and what not. Then why do we make our well-trained soldiers ambushed and KIA... only the cowards then will ascend the high position and take us back to 90s. We only make announcement that we have ordered 100 bulletproof jackets etc (forget about actual procurement) and the chaps next door on cue come with armour piercing bullets. They are playing T20i, we are playing club cricket, chalta hai onlee

[Prem Kumar]

Fanne Ji: appreciate your spirited defense. Yes, its quite possible that the unknown gunmen, TTP attack & Baloch ambushes are given support by us for, among other reasons, extracting revenge. But its not an either-or situation. Doing these do not mean we don't do surgical strikes

The widow, the orphan or the mother grieving her lost son, won't even know that some unknown gunman killed the mastermind of a terror attack which claimed their loved one. A surgical strike, killing a 100 terrorists & Paki soldiers will send a clear message to that mother that her son has been avenged. That he did not die in vain.

Justice must not only be done, but must also seen to be done

What will bring closure to our collective wounded hearts is retribution on a massive scale. A 1:100 kill ratio. I personally want to see blood. Islamic blood being shed. Torrents of it.

[Pratyush]

What I want to know is how many men are equipped with thermal gun sights?

Or sights of any kind?

[brvarsh]

What I want to know is how many men are equipped with thermal gun sights?

Or sights of any kind?

Why do you want to know these internal and classified details on a public forum? Its all about scale. If terrain, time of operation, other factors are known, Army has every thing there is, but if a tukdi is lured into something, they won't carry all the gadgets all the time with them. High value armaments are not carried all the time either as there is a risk of such weaponry end up in wrong hands in ambushes like this.

[Pratyush]

Why do you want to know these internal and classified details on a public forum? Its all about scale. If terrain, time of operation, other factors are known, Army has every thing there is, but if a tukdi is lured into something, they won't carry all the gadgets all the time with them. High value armaments are not carried all the time either as there is a risk of such weaponry end up in wrong hands in ambushes like this.

1) Not every thing is classified. INSAS was built with the shoe to mount optics. The army has been upgrading the Ak47 to mount optics. All the modern firearms being procured by the army are able to mount optics. Therefore, optics should be standard issue equipment for the army. But I haven't seen operations being conducted by men with optics. That's the reason why I want to know.

2) You fight the way you have trained. If you haven't trianed with optics. Then you don't fight with optics.

3) Scopes help in aiming. If someone is hidden in the foliage. Then the ability to quickly and accurately target the suspected target location. Can reduce casualties. Scopes are a huge force multiplier.

4) When your enemy is armed with ex Afghan army surplus M4 with 4.5X ACOG. Your own men are sitting ducks. When you have to go up against them.

5) If you think that post an ambush, your enemy can capture your weapons. He has already been doing that for decades.

6) In an ambush, your enemy has the element of surprise and initiative. The way to even the odds is to be able to quickly acquire the target and eliminate them. Scopes allow our people to do so.

That's why, thermal imaging and optical sights are important.

[stephen]

"Army has every thing there is, but if a tukdi is lured into something, they won't carry all the gadgets all the time with them. High value armaments are not carried all the time either as there is a risk of such weaponry end up in wrong hands in ambushes like this"

And there lies our problem. These sights/scopes/devices are still not part of a standard kit. All these should have been a part of any soldier's kit who is going to an active combat area. We do not have to provide for the whole army yet ,as they are expensive but definitely prioritise it for every soldier who is in an active combat zone. Our advantage over these turds should not only be our number but the overwhelming firepower that we can rain on anyone who fires off a bullet against us. The pukes will be sending better trained turds with weapons and kits leftover from the US army and we will keep on taking hits like this if we keep on ignoring the jawans who are actually doing the fighting on an everyday basis.
Being scared that the weaponry and kit will fall into wrong hands should never be an excuse for not providing it to a soldier. Weapons and more have regularly fallen into the hands of terrorists whether in J&K, the NE or even in the Maoist belt. We will see worst than images of captured weapons and kits, soon the whole ambush will be captured in 4K definition and loaded online.
Our soldiers deserve the best protection and kit that we can produce and sadly we equip them woefully inadequately.

[Pratyush]

https://idrw.org/indian-army-seeks-to-e ... ti-sights/

The procurement is for 116 units of thermal sights.

[Prem Kumar]

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/12-maoi ... li-6127214

Silver lining, if one can call it that. 12 more Maopests have been halal'ed. This is one area where Amit Shah and the BJP ruled State Governments (Chattisgarh & Maharshtra) are doing great!

[sajaym]

This is one of the solutions to the level of threat that is being faced in the valley by our forces today. Clearly the insurgents' level of technology has been upped, so there needs to be a 2X jump in our forces' level of technology.

[fanne]

This May work in urban scenario where there are neat stairs or square obstacles. In jungle, where the obstacles are just 10x, these robodogs will not work, not just yet. The tech has lots of catch-up to do.

[Manish_P]

That's the future and it will come.

Current priority must be to ensure that each and every soldier has good BPJ/protection, quality optics and network-centric Comms as part of their basic gear.

[fanne]

IMVHO - I don't think we have any shortfall on equipping soldier. That was true 10 years ago, not anymore. I have seen n number of videos of many nondescript border post having scores of drones, thermal imager etc. Yes, the latest/greatest will always be in a catch-up mode, that is case for all forces all over the world. Even the mighty US army does not get the latest gear to all its forces the second day.

In jungle warfare, the forces themselves say, they prefer to travel light (try even few kg extra on uphill mountain). Jungle warfare is always unpredictable. It is frustrating and sad to lose the our soldiers, but it could be that this is just nature of things and nothing could be done about it.

Listening to some podcast (that have retired IA personnel as guest), they are making these points (guaranteed they can be not as smart as some people here at the board, but their view is well represented, I am putting view of other guys.
1. Can more technology help - Thermal imager, drones -not much give foliage and dense forest
2.Fencing, border post, or constant patrol - Not very feasible, will need very heavy investment in troops, may not lower the risk much and terrorist will just move to different sector
3. Quality of info, Trap etc. - Could be, but the best person to judge it is the person on the ground. He could always genuinely judge wrong, or fed wrong info (right from informant itself getting wrong info)
4. Time pressure, proper cardon - This could be improved. Don't move fast enough unless a cardon is in place. If that means terrorist slip away, so be it. No hot pursuit, but slowly tightening the noose. But if that is the doctrine, all terrorist has to do is attack and run, one can never circle them.
5.Something to be done on TSP side to stop it - It is nit having an effect for not trying
6. The ceasefire is helping both side. TSP has extra force to fight all kinds of forces and we have to deploy at LAC and within India - Manipur, God forbid, i it is WB or some Nax area. Both the parties are stretched thin. TSPA was not historically stretched, it is now.

[Deans]

I have increasing concerns about the flare up in insurgency.
I don't believe we need to change opinions, based on a couple of incidents. Data over a longer term is more revealing and to me that picture
still looks positive:

Average of the 5 years before article 370 went (2014-18)
41 civilians, 71 security forces and 175 militants killed each year.
In 5 years from Aug 2019 - today:
28 civilians, 40 security forces and 218 militants killed each year.
Ratio of security forces (which include J&K police) to terrorists has changed from
1: 2.5 to 1: 5.5

It is not a sustainable kill ratio for militants.
This does not include the militants killed before they cross the LOC fence.
Civilian deaths are down, though they have started targeting soft targets like pilgrims etc.

My concern is 5 years after 370 went and after the SC gave a deadline to hold elections, there does not seem to be a road map for it.
Increasing the powers of the LG, when you should have had an elected Govt by now, is a retrograde step that can bring back civil unrest.
Infrastructure projects continue to be delayed. Completing the railway to Srinagar can increase tourists 10X, with a corresponding increase
in jobs for locals. Its now delayed 20 years.

I'm not sure if Doval, at his age, is still the best man to be NSA. Before the election we had issues like foreign interference on Social media,
Chinese funding of Anti India media owner etc. We backed down over giving visas to Chinese. Our handling Pannun/Nijjar looked a lot less
competent than the unknown gunmen killing our enemies in Pak.

View of Maj Gen Bakshi (he commanded a division that area) that the COIN grid in the area had been weakened.
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=500943565743499

[Y I Patel]

There is a vicious undeclared battle going on right now, and we are getting less than half the story. We want to recognize our forces’ bravery and sacrifices, so the grim news we are hearing should not stop. I do find it highly objectionable when people use fragmentary information to cede victory to the enemy.

[fanne]

I hope y I Patel sir, that was not directed towards me. I will be very happy to be corrected!!

There is indeed huge undeclared war going on. This by whom we call friends (higher than mountain, sweeter than honey and all that).

They have moved to stage 2 of having a Christian state comparising few ne states (including large part of Manipur, and gandi is ready). BD is in phase 2 of it. We think we clamped down on phase 1 on our side but who knows. In mayanmar it is already in phase 100, as soon as bd and India side is fixed that side is ready. That is but one battle.

There are many that we do not know. We do not have infinite forces or resources. You use them wisely. Do you get setbacks, yes.

Look at the mrfa game. It has been beautifully games by —- (use your imagination), stopping,delaying lca/mca etc is part of much larger game.

[Y I Patel]

Absolutely not. In general directed against reporters and commentators.

[sajaym]

Indian Army deploys 500 para commandos
https://www.businesstoday.in/india/stor ... 2024-07-20

According to defence sources, approximately 500 Para Special Forces commandos have been deployed to locate and neutralise 50 to 55 infiltrating terrorists from Pakistan who aim to revitalise terrorist activities in the area.

The Indian Army has also mobilised additional troops, bringing in a brigade consisting of 3,500 to 4,000 personnel to counter what is perceived as Pakistan’s proxy aggression.

All I can say is...Brilliant master stroke by Pakistan! 55 terrorists have managed to tie down 4500 Indian Army troops!

[S_Madhukar]

For all the bluster of getting back PoJK hope the govt realises that how internally compromised we are and the manifold risk that would come from actually getting that land back… and the utter dishonesty of bureaucracy and other people in that state will mean we always have to watch our backs.

IA must be the only force in the world for 30 years fighting the same problems again and again. I wonder which jungles and hills are left for Bakis to exploit ? May be it will be drains and nallas next year, caves hitherto undiscovered , who knows even Ladakh desert might be a surprise, somehow an enemy that knows our terrain better than us is a mockery of our abilities.

Plus 2-3 years after Balakot coaching classes are doing very well and these chaps sneaked 1-2 at a time . Absolutely hate the narrative that Eleven or Demoncrats asked and equipped them to do this, well what do you expect… sometimes I feel there are vested interests on our side that wants to keep the gravy train rolling else procurement opportunities will reduce…

Are we also looking at other forms of warfare that may be illegal or inhumane that will deter these vermin, they should not be expecting an enjoyable shootout, personally would not mind them being napalmed, gassed or skinned or chemically dissolved and flung across the borders for the aam Abdul to think twice before signing up

[fanne]

Kya bawasir hai, forces get killed mudi shud rejine, bring overwhelming force, forces tied up mudi shud resign. Kya kare?