Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[Pratyush]

The Boeing MQ 25A as an unmanned tanker is powered by a 44 Kn turbofan and has a range of 500 nautical miles with 6.8 tons of transfer fuel.

Kaveri makes an Indian development of unmanned tanker with similar capacity viable.

[Prem Kumar]

What I find baffling is this:

Kaveri did not achieve enough thrust to power Tejas. No shame in that - it was a stretch goal anyway.

But for 2 decades, there has been talk of how a lower thrust Kaveri or its variants or the tech-knowhow gained can be used to power everything from UAVs to Ships (marine Kaveri)

We have not brought out a working product in even one of these spin-offs. That's truly shameful and is an epic fail by GTRE. There seems to be a complete lack of vision in capturing even a slightly lower rung in the value chain

[basant]

GTRE did miracles with peanuts thrown at them. If anyone wanted it in production, the services for instace given the strategic importance, they would be have batted for them rather than battering they did sitting on the sidelines. Is that what any other AF did in any country that today has a working engine?

The nicest thing that can be said about IAF leadership is that they like imported toys. Anyone who disagrees can do a web search to find which ex-service chief is on bail for corruption charges. Since 2018!

[maitya]

Upping the thread with the following nugget:

India’s 5th-gen fighter, the AMCA, looks to move off the drawing board and into the air
...
DRDO officials say: “The F-414 engine generates up to 98 KiloNewtons (KN) thrust, which effectively degrades to 90 KN in Indian climatic conditions. We have calculated that an AMCA, with the configuration the IAF has specified, requires a thrust of 220 KN (in Indian conditions) for super-cruising. That means it requires twin engines, each generating 110 KN thrust.
...

Guess, that should explain the flat-rating requirement for Kaveri, but not for other imported TFs.

Also for those who cry hoarse about 73-75KN (wet) achieved by K9 etc, think again - just how much do you think F404s would be actually achieving in same "indian climatic conditions", while it's shiny brochure 82-83KN thrust claims.
And what about their dry-thrust claims vs actual achieved in sqn services, hain jee ...

[pravula]

What are "Indian conditions"? Hot and high? Hot, dry and high?

[NRao]

IDWR reporting that Dr. Kamat has stated that a dry Kaveri will be mated with an LCA trainer.

[V_Raman]

This is new angle - Indian climatic conditions (ICC) - have we been comparing Kaveri-ICC numbers with F404-Brochure numbers all this time?

[pravula]

This is new angle - Indian climatic conditions (ICC) - have we been comparing Kaveri-ICC numbers with F404-Brochure numbers all this time?

Flat rating for Kaveri,

[maitya]

This is new angle - Indian climatic conditions (ICC) - have we been comparing Kaveri-ICC numbers with F404-Brochure numbers all this time?

Of course ... where basic rudimentary understanding is lacking, this is bound to happen, and it happened and in fact, will continue to happen unfortunately.

Just how many times did any of the reports on the Kaveri program, over last 2+ decades, mentioned/talked about the dry thrust, flat rating etc - all were about "... didn't achieve the 81KN, so must be very bad and a complete failure etc ...", type of rants, with absolutely 0 analysis.

And then there was this Matheswaran worthy, in company of other seriously technically-challenged comrades/worthies, smirking about how the GTRE folks were foolheartedly trying to achieve in 6 stages, where other leading OEMs struggle with many more stages etc etc type of verbal diarrhoea.
As if 3rd Gen TFs like AL-31F with their 9 HPC stages are paragon of technical competences and should have been followed.
The ignorance displayed in pompous talks by this lot, in such conferences, is actually scary (since some of these lot have actually formed the senior-lot/decision-makers of IAF in some point of time or the other). Actually many may still continue today to parade their ignorance via various webcasts, eggspert-comments etc.

Expecting such worthies to understand the impact of ambient air-density, in typical Indian conditions etc, vis-a-vis the direct impact on PR and thus thrust achieved etc, is like ...

[basant]

I beg to differ. Reporters are not engineers. Did GTRE, or any of its retired employees even, tried placing the facts in public domain? I have seen podcasts and interviews of well meaning TPs and even they do not talk about it. Why?

GTRE should come out with proper scientific rebuttals of criticism and their take on performance in Indian conditions. If they do not defend themselves, we cannot blame non-experts. If HAL could take IN head on, GTRE also could, and should. I admire GTRE but their PR is terrible.

[bala]

Kaveri Engine program gains momentum, MIDHANI to supply all components

Indian Defense Analysis
09 June 2024



Various issues in Kaveri engine are fixed. In Feb 2022 the Dry Kaveri engine finished high altitude trials in Russia. Simulated for 46 KN but achieved 48.5 KN. Midhani supplied the crucial materials. In Feb 2023 Godrej & Boyce was given authority to produce 8 modules. 1st engine by Godrej is to be delivered in late 2024. Afterburner section work was started in Jan 2024 with target of 80 Kilo Newton. GE 404 is rated at dry thrust of 48.9 kilo Newtons and 78.7 KN with after burner. So the Kaveri engine is almost close to GE 404 in terms of power.

Midhani is targeting materials for a 110 KN engine that would power the AMCA.

[Pratyush]

Basant, perhaps the problem is that the GTRE is not a production agency. It's only a research and development agency.

HAL on the other hand is a production agency. It can tell the customer what it can and cannot do.

WRT, scientific presentation of its accomplishments. Perhaps the problem is that the skills required to understand GTRE speak doesn't exist in wider user community. They can read the raw numbers. But the implications of those numbers are beyond their compression.

IOW, they are no different from me. Because, they have not needed to be more than me.

[maitya]

Kaveri Engine program gains momentum, MIDHANI to supply all components

Indian Defense Analysis
09 June 2024

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Various issues in Kaveri engine are fixed. In Feb 2022 the Dry Kaveri engine finished high altitude trials in Russia. Simulated for 46 KN but achieved 48.5 KN. Midhani supplied the crucial materials. In Feb 2023 Godrej & Boyce was given authority to produce 8 modules. 1st engine by Godrej is to be delivered in late 2024. Afterburner section work was started in Jan 2024 with target of 80 Kilo Newton. GE 404 is rated at dry thrust of 48.9 kilo Newtons and 78.7 KN with after burner. So the Kaveri engine is almost close to GE 404 in terms of power.

Midhani is targeting materials for a 110 KN engine that would power the AMCA.

Good report, but with quite a few inaccuracies/mis-reporting - few major ones, that needs correcting are:

1) ... has met it's dry thrust requirement of 46KN - actually K9 achieved 51KN dry thrust, way back in 2008-09.

2) At ~04:35 in background of Dr Tessy Thomas inaugurating GTRE Engine parts manufacturing at Godrej Aerospace, banner says "50KN Aero Engine By GTRE ..." - but the whole report continues to harp on 48.5KN dry thrust etc.
Completely mish-mash of dry-Kaveri variant and the old K9, all throughout the report.

3) GE 404 is rated at dry thrust of 48.9 kilo Newtons and 78.7 KN with after burner - wrong!!
Those ratings are for F404-402 but the version used on Tejas Mk1/MK1A is F404-IN20 which has a much improved thrust ratings (of 53-54KN dry and 84KN Wet), thanks to "improved" hot sections.
What would have been interesting is, if any hint what are the thrust-ratings it achieves in "Indian Climatic Conditions" (as opposed to the brochure claim of of 53-54KN/84KN) - similar to the recent report of F414 achieving 91KN (wet) in "Indian Climatic Conditions", as opposed to the brochure claim of 98KN (wet).

Kaveri variants, on the other hand, being flat-rated, will produce what they achieve during test scenarios, so fully expect it to achieve 51KN/81KN in these "Indian Climatic Conditions", if it's successfully developed/certified.

[Kailash]

Can someone explain the engine certification process post high altitude testing completion in Russia? If there are different rule books used by Russia, US, UK, France, which one are we using?

Are there efforts to build our own rule book for certification of future engines?

[Kailash]

https://idrw.org/kaveri-drdo-plans-to-l ... ore-344262

1180kg currently with AB. If they could really get it to under a ton (another 180-200kg) Kaveri would be a world beating engine. Though I doubt that they can. Unless there is massive redesign, they are able to achieve the pressure ratios using lesser number of stages, CMC, blisks and all things nice.

[Aditya_V]

It would be better they wore k on an engine for the AMCA, MK2 with Higher thrust. Matching the GE404 in the same dimesons for Tejas MK1/1A may not be productive.

[hgupta]

It would be better they wore k on an engine for the AMCA, MK2 with Higher thrust. Matching the GE404 in the same dimesons for Tejas MK1/1A may not be productive.

Sorry to get there, you cannot skip steps. You have to match GE404 in the same dimensions in order to get to the step of engine with higher thrust. It is part of developing the know how and know why base.

[Aditya_V]

But isnt the inlet Fan diameter bigger in F-414 and dimensions bigger, so weight reduction target may not be that severe.

[hgupta]

But isnt the inlet Fan diameter bigger in F-414 and dimensions bigger, so weight reduction target may not be that severe.

No it remains the same size. The inside inlet fan may be bigger but the overall diameter and length remains the same. From wiki:

The F414 fan is larger than that of the F404, but smaller than the F412 fan.[4] The larger fan increases the engine airflow by 16%, is 5 inches (13 cm) longer, and increased diameter from 28 inches (71 cm) to 31 inches (79 cm). To keep the F414 in the same envelope, or space occupied in the airframe, as the F404, the afterburner section was shortened by 4 in (10 cm) and the combustor shortened by 1 in (2.5 cm). Also changed from the F404 is the construction of the first three stages of the high-pressure compressor which are blisks rather than separate discs and dovetailed blades, saving 50 pounds (23 kg) in weight.

[Pratyush]

Different Indian You tube channels are reporting that Kaveri is approved for aircraft integration.

[maitya]

Different Indian You tube channels are reporting that Kaveri is approved for aircraft integration.

Oh is it, fantastic news, if true ... betw which one - the old K9 version, or just the dry-Kaveri or dry-Kaveri with a brand new A/B?

[Rakesh]

IDRW (of all people!!!!) has debunked the tweets below ---> https://idrw.org/debunking-safran-certi ... surfacing/

https://x.com/Manish_K_Jha1/status/1807608500761272522 ---> Kaveri Engine back on track. Reports indicate @SAFRAN audit clears Kaveri for aircraft integration for five prototypes. K5, K6, K7, K8 & K9 tested for about 145 hours, like a transient test from idle to max reheat carried out first time successfully. Is it geared for military planes?

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1807622977392869811 ---> DRDO/GTRE Kaveri engine cleared for aircraft integration in audit by SAFRAN of France. The engine will likely be integrated with a limited serial production Tejas aircraft for testing.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Varun55484761/status/1812859202446209198 ---> Good news. Indian Jet Engine start-up DG Propulsion has been selected as an iDEX winner for developing turbo Jet Engines for high-speed UAVs.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1812460243898818627 ---> The recent delaying tactics from Firm General Electric should be sufficient for officials in PMO, MoD, IAF, GTRE and HAL to kick start the 𝗟𝗶𝗳𝗲 𝗘𝘅𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗣𝗿𝗼𝗴𝗿𝗮𝗺 𝗼𝗳 𝗥𝗗-𝟯𝟯 engines with 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗹𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗶𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗲𝗻𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻. The proposal has already been sent to the MoD.

[rrao]

AL31FP and RD33 do they fit straight away? RD-33 with its black smoke will then be no different from JF-17. Even china might have replaced RD-33 with WS-10. so,the best option for the Govt is to whip the asses of GTRE and tell them to buck up, form a consortium led by GTRE and joined by Godrej and Boyce, Kalyani defence and HAL. AL31FP is not fully indigenous and IAF is importing them and RD-33 comes with the MIG-29 aircraft. Rakesh sir, sensor means what type of sensor in AL31FP? Tacho which senses the turbine speed and turbine gas temperature sensors? pressure sensors of inlet, outlet air or LP and HP combustion chamber pressure probes, vibration sensors? HAL doesnt take any import substituion risk unless kicked in the butt by RM....Alas he is no Manohar parrikar saheb.

[isubodh]

AL31FP and RD33 do they fit straight away? RD-33 with its black smoke will then be no different from JF-17. Even china might have replaced RD-33 with WS-10. so,the best option for the Govt is to whip the asses of GTRE and tell them to buck up, form a consortium led by GTRE and joined by Godrej and Boyce, Kalyani defence and HAL. AL31FP is not fully indigenous and IAF is importing them and RD-33 comes with the MIG-29 aircraft.

What is tentative timeliness this plan can deliver ?
Does it make HAL meet its 2024 targets or for that matter 2025 ones or 2026 one ...

Is there no clause in the agreement with GE how delays will be handled ?

[hanumadu]

RD33 is about 30 cm longer than GE F404 but lesseer in dia. Will it fit in Tejas? AL31F is way bigger than GE-F404.

[pravula]

Really? Why not load it up with a AL51 and be done with it? Its like dropping a big block chevy in a maruti 800. Will give you 3km/liter...

[Yogi_G]

Not sure about the LCA fitment but its time to move beyond the fact that the RD-33 engine is very smoky. Improvements and refinements have significantly improved the engine smokiness, the same are manufactured in India. I see it repeated again and again and wanted to call it out.

[bala]

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klimov_RD-33

RD-33MK

The RD-33MK "Morskaya Osa" (Russian: Морская Оса: "Sea Wasp") is the latest model developed in 2001. It is intended to power the MiG-29K and MiG-29KUB shipborne fighters, however it has also been adopted for the MiG-35. The RD-33MK develops 7% higher thrust, is digitally controlled FADEC and smokeless unlike earlier RD-33 engines, has increased afterburner thrust to 9,000 kilograms-force (88,000 N; 20,000 lbf) and dry weight 1,145 kilograms (2,524 lb) compared to the baseline model through modern materials used on the cooled blades, although it retains the same length and maximum diameter. Infrared and optical signature visibility reduction systems have been added. Service life has been increased to 4,000 hours. The RD-33MK ensures unassisted take-off capability for ship-borne fighters, retains its performance in hot climates, and thereby provides a boost in combat efficiency for the latest variant of the MiG-29 fighter.

India's Hindustan Aeronautics Limited has obtained licensed production for RD-33MK variant in 2007 and so far has produced 140 engines till 2020.

GE 404
Diameter: 35 in (89 cm) overall, 28 in (71 cm) inlet
Length: 154 in (391 cm)
Dry weight: 2,282 lb (1,035 kg)


The RD-33
1.040 meters (3 feet, 6.95 inches) in diameter,
4.229 meters (13 feet, 10.50 inches) long,
and weighs 1,145 kilograms (2,524 lb)

[Pratyush]

^^^An example of iterative development.

More reliable, longer life.

Sad the Indian system is incapable of recognising this.

[maitya]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1812460243898818627 ---> The recent delaying tactics from Firm General Electric should be sufficient for officials in PMO, MoD, IAF, GTRE and HAL to kick start the 𝗟𝗶𝗳𝗲 𝗘𝘅𝘁𝗲𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗣𝗿𝗼𝗴𝗿𝗮𝗺 𝗼𝗳 𝗥𝗗-𝟯𝟯 engines with 𝗵𝗶𝗴𝗵𝗲𝗿 𝗹𝗲𝘃𝗲𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗶𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗴𝗲𝗻𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻. The proposal has already been sent to the MoD.

I'm confused ... how is life extension of AL-31F or RD-33 TFs linked to F404 delays wrt the LCA program.
If somebody is getting any thoughts about MK1A etc being powered by RD-33 (AL-31F etc won't fit) etc, then a much larger (multi-year) dedicated program would be required, along-with OEM deep involvement.
For import-bahadurs like us, much easier would be go get some ready-made F404-402s from either US or other global operators themselves and band-aid the current impasse - should keep everybody happy.

That doesn't ofcourse mean we shouldn't ask for greater indigenous content, more specifically in the critical subsystems like both HPT and LPT (Blades, Vanes, and Discs), HPCs, Combustor, Shafts etc of these 2 TFs.
Technologically, there're no LRUs or subsystems in these two TFs, that can't be designed and manufactured indigenously - i.e. both manufacturing technology and the raw-material processing technology for all LRUs and subsystems of them, exists indigenously.
The only challenge, apart from contractual/IP violation, may be the volume-demand, to make them economically viable.

In fact, it's well within GTREs reach to design and implement an "updgrade" of both of these TFs - but will however require quite a bit of effort, schedule and cost to do so.
But then again, achieving "true self-sufficiency" in nether easy nor cheap.

Of course, fact remains, when the original contracts for the so-called ToTs for them were negotiated, we should have insisted on the LRU level replacements with indigenously produced (from raw materials) LRUs without voiding the whole warranty etc - now, fat chance of Russians agreeing to any of it though.

So all that will happen, more and more "assembling" (from SKD/CKD kits) of LRUs and Systems and stocking them up, that's about it, really.
Nothing changes ...

[Kailash]

update from alpha defense

Over 54kn for the version that was tested in Russia?
Brahmos making AB.
Talks of better material and weight saving, though there are no specific numbers

[maitya]

update from alpha defense

Over 54kn for the version that was tested in Russia?
Brahmos making AB.
Talks of better material and weight saving, though there are no specific numbers

Salient points that I'm able to cull out from the report:

1. At 00:30 - Dry Kaveri consistently delivering >50KN
2. At: 00:39 - At High Alt testing in Russian the performance (of Dry Kaveri Variant) was better than what was anticipated/estimated
[My Comment] For the above 2 points, this has been known for some time - estimated 46KN but achieved 48.5KN in Russia (in high Alt testing)

3. At 00:48 - Based on this perf, Govt approved/sanctioned the A/B variant design/productionisation of the Dry Kaveri
[My Comment] This is very good confirmation - though it has been reported here and there, but nothing concrete or widespread

4. At 01:23 - Target is to create 50KN/81KN TF
[My Comment] So the target thrust/performance figures are being kept same as that of the original Kaveri - slightly conservative target setting

5. At 01:29 - New A/B variant design completed by GTRE and is being handed over to a production partner
[My Comment] Again very good confirmation

6. At 01:40 - Surprisingly, the A/B production partner is Brahmos Aerospace (maybe due to their experience with Ramjet propulsion productionisation)
[My Comment] Wow - this is big news, breathtaking news ...

7. At 01:46 - 09 months required by Brahmos Aerospace to build the brand-new A/B segment
8. At 01:55 - The Brahmos A/B to be integrated with Dry variant from Godrej and then integrated with a LCA variant for testing and certification
[My Comment] Again very good confirmation - though it has been reported here and there, but nothing concrete or widespread. Testing directly with LCA (single-engined platform) and no strapping in double-engined supersonic platforms etc intermediate steps - exhibits confidence of GTRE but also maturity of the base design itself.

9. At 02:35 - The dry variant achieved greater than 54KN during testing in Russia
[My Comment] Now just from where did this come suddenly - all along we knew it was 48.5KN achieved (against a target/estimate of 46KN). Absolutely brilliant news if true.
Plus the basic design being that of a flat-rated TF (very low BPR, high (relatively) TeT and modest OPR), this dry-thrust-rating, if achieved, will be head-and-shoulder above of whatever IAF has experienced so far (in true operational conditions).

10. At 02:46 - Based on this performance (of the dry variant), it is being estimated/expected that A/B would produce greater than 80KN
[My Comment] Naturally, 54KN dry thrust expectation means, a decently designed/produced A/B will easily take it to 86-88KN levels.

11. At 03:08 - It will take ~1 year for manufacturing of both the A/B (to be made by Brahmos Corp) and the dry-variant (from Godrej)
12. At 03:13 - It will take another 1 year to integrate both (dry variant and the A/B) - so by ~2027, after which integrating with a LCA variant to be undertaken
[My Comment] Integrating shouldn't take that long, but I think some level of testing and fine tuning is also assumed in this timeline - so fair-enough
Do note, the LPT performance has direct bearing on A/B performance as well.

13. At 03:28 - Full program (including testing and optimisation) would take 5 - 7 years
14. At 03:52 - Funding, though less, but still has been finally initiated after 14 long years
[My Comment] Very good confirmation on the timelines and budgetary support - timelines maybe slightly conservatively put, but that's better wrt setting right expectations etc.

[fanne]

Please see below for F404 IN 20 (GE also had IN30, but we declined that, fearing delays, otherwise that would have been reason for delay against the current reason - supply chain issue- reality that is US deep state messing with us).

F404-IN20: Specifically designed for the HAL Tejas.

Thrust (without afterburner): 54 kN
Thrust (with afterburner): 84 kN
Length: 3.91 m
Diameter: 0.89 m
Weight: 1,030 kg

The New Kaveri is almost mirror image of that, output wise (i.e. the earlier shortfall Kaveri version 1 has been improved to newer version Kaveri version 2, which has almost exact spec as F404 IN 20). Someone must have impressed GTRE, stop Bokwas and deliver same as what F404 IN20 gives. This additionally comes with flat rating, means better performance in Hot and High places. Surprisingly for 54 KN dry, 80 KN wet is low (usually you get 50% more in AB, now even GE engines are pushing 60%), we are sticking to 50% value, only because AB has been our Achilles' heel and people are conservative.

This engine can drop in for F404IN20. Shame that some years were lost due to defunding (well not actually, without fund they would not have continued to work, maybe more funding could have been done). The biggest issue is, we are assuming happy day scenario, that everything will work as designed/intended. Look at LCAMK1A, for something that was to be done in 12 months has already taken 18 months (1.5 times jump). Even the refueling probe in LCA and the nose cone took 2x the time (nose cone was eventually imported and The UK company itself took 2x time to deliver). These are R&D issues, very hard to predict the timeline. Troubleshooting can take any time.

I only pray that even if GE sorts out F404 issues and delivers 300 engines tomorrow, this project is funded till the Kavri matures. Now please do not stop this. The other 2 engine plane that we are retiring, that can be used as test bed are Jags. (If we cannot afford Mig 29). Before someone jumps that Kaveri is way bigger than Adour, one can change the plane significantly to accommodate that. Not easy, but doable. Has been done in the past by other countries. One can resurrect the Canberra's as well.

Several multi-engine planes have been used to test new engines where the new engine was significantly larger than the existing ones. Here are a few notable examples:

1. Boeing 747
The Boeing 747 has been used by various companies, including General Electric and Rolls-Royce, to test new engines. A notable example is the 747 testbed used by General Electric to test the GE9X engine, which is significantly larger than the 747's original engines.

2. Boeing 707
The Boeing 707 has been used as a testbed for various engines over the years. For example, the JT9D engine, which was developed for the Boeing 747, was tested on a 707. The JT9D was much larger than the 707's original engines.

3. Lockheed C-130 Hercules
The Lockheed C-130 Hercules has been used to test new engines, including turboprops and turbofans. The new engines tested on the C-130 have often been larger and more powerful than the original engines.

4. Boeing B-52 Stratofortress
The B-52 has been used to test various engines, including the Pratt & Whitney JT9D and the GE F101. The F101 engine was notably larger than the B-52's original engines.

5. Douglas DC-10
The Douglas DC-10 has also been used as a testbed for new engines. For instance, the GE90 engine, one of the largest jet engines ever built, was tested on a DC-10. The GE90 was significantly larger than the DC-10's original engines.

6. Lockheed Martin C-5 Galaxy
The C-5 Galaxy has been used to test engines like the GE TF39 and later variants. Newer engines tested on the C-5 have often been larger and more powerful.

These aircraft were chosen for their size, power, and ability to accommodate the significant modifications required to test new, larger engines.

When it comes to fighter or bomber planes used to test new engines, the following examples are notable:

1. North American B-45 Tornado
The B-45 Tornado was used by General Electric to test the J79 engine, which was notably larger than the aircraft's original engines.

2. Convair B-36 Peacemaker
The B-36 Peacemaker, a strategic bomber, was used to test the Pratt & Whitney YJ75 engine. The aircraft was originally powered by a combination of piston and jet engines, and the test engine was significantly larger than the original jet engines.

3. McDonnell Douglas NF-15B STOL/MTD
The NF-15B, a modified F-15, was used to test various advanced propulsion systems, including larger engines and thrust vectoring technologies. This aircraft was part of NASA's Advanced Fighter Technology Integration (AFTI) program.

4. Boeing B-17 Flying Fortress
The B-17, primarily a World War II bomber, was repurposed for various testing roles post-war. One of its versions was used to test the General Electric TG-100 turboprop engine, which was larger than the B-17's original piston engines.

5. Boeing B-50 Superfortress
The B-50, a post-WWII bomber, was used as a testbed for the Pratt & Whitney J57 turbojet engine, which was larger and more powerful than the bomber's original piston engines.

6. North American XB-70 Valkyrie
Although not used for testing engines that were significantly larger than its own, the XB-70 Valkyrie was a supersonic bomber used to test various propulsion and aerodynamic technologies that contributed to the development of larger and more powerful jet engines.

These fighter and bomber planes were selected for their ability to accommodate new, larger engines, and their robust airframes capable of handling the stresses associated with engine testing.

[srin]

Not sure about the LCA fitment but its time to move beyond the fact that the RD-33 engine is very smoky. Improvements and refinements have significantly improved the engine smokiness, the same are manufactured in India. I see it repeated again and again and wanted to call it out.

Anyone pitching RD-33 engine for LCA should read the CAG report on Mig-29K.

[sanman]

Brahmos to make Kaveri afterburner

[Yagnasri]

Godrej was making full dry versions as per the earlier reports. Any reasons for changing the production agency?

[pravula]

Looks like thats going to continue. The A/B section is brand new and not part of the dry version.

[maitya]

^^^^^ That's correct!! Obviously there were no A/B section in the Dry Version that have been in the works for a few years now - and that got tested in Russia last year.

Obviously the Dry version had quite a bit of commonality with the K9 version etc but it got a new fan (reported back about an year or so) and also some new materials in various sections. Godrej got a contract to produce it, IIRC last year, and may have delivered (or maybe about to deliver) the first production variant etc.

The A/B version is brand-new design (by GTRE) and is not based on the K9 A/B etc ... there were some reports on various new A/B LRUs (light-weight and with higher thermal resistance properties - a few of which were PMC based) being developed over last few years - pls search this thread over past years and you'll find those news items.

It is now getting reported that the A/B design is complete and is handed over to Brahmos Corp (surprise, surprise) for productionising it - and that they will take about an year to produce the first A/B version.

Post which, it will get integrated with the Dry variant (from Godrej) before installing in a LCA TD/PV/LSP for flight trials.

Pls refer to my post a few posts above it.