Small Armaments & Infantry Equipment - News & Discussion

[sanjayc]

Adani Defence gets largest ever order of NEGEV NG7 7.62X51mm Light Machine Gun

Indian Defense Analysis

AK203 which have 7.62 X 39 and also SIG716 with 7.62 x 51 and now negev LMG. The Army small arms is dominated by foreign maal - Russian, Ameriki and now Israel. Where is India design and development and its manufacturing?

The video says the Negev supplied by Adani is 95% indigenous, which is commendable.

[srai]

^^^
The word “indigenous” should not be used for local license manufacture.

[Prem Kumar]

Exactly!

And since when is Adani a serious defense player? They have invested Zero in R&D. But today they build Hermes UAVs & LMGs and call themselves Atmanirbhar

They are a private sector BEL who does screwdriver-giri. There is not a single, self-respecting engineering graduate who would want to join Adani for learning or doing interesting work. But lots of them would want to join Boeing or LM or a host of other smaller defense startups. Even ones like Kalyani or Pixxel in India

I am increasingly disgusted by this. Rajnath Singh, because he cannot tell the difference between fine-muslin-cloth & toilet paper, thinks everything is Atmanirbhar! In that process, he is completely killing indigenous R&D. When only baniyas make money by license assembly, all local talent will flee abroad or join the baniya-gang. Even the Congress wouldn't have been able to achieve this level of destruction in our capabilities

[Bharadwaj]

Ak-203, negev and sig716 fitted with scopes on operational duties. Perhaps Thakur ji could identify the make of these.

pic courtesy of Northern command twitter handle.

[bala]

INSAS Reborn: The Indian Army's Rifle Upgrade Journey.

Samir Dhawan, CEO of Star Aerospace, the firm responsible for upgrading these rifles. The Indian Army is upgrading its inventory of half a million INSAS rifles. The first batch of upgraded rifles has been handed over to the Northern Command. Samir says the magazine was the issue in the old INSAS. So they redesigned the magazine.

Sandeep Unnithan moderates.

[Pratyush]

WRT the magazine's of INSAS being an issue.

IIRC, the original magazine's were designed to be disposable after a few uses. I am surprised that it took them this long to understand that consistent use of magazines would create feeding issues.

[pravula]

WRT the magazine's of INSAS being an issue.

IIRC, the original magazine's were designed to be disposable after a few uses. I am surprised that it took them this long to understand that consistent use of magazines would create feeding issues.

We are talking about IA...Just be happy that they are not trying to sabotage the fix...

[Manish_P]

^ Eventually all troops will transition to AK or Sig series.. is that correct?

[sanjayc]

Looks like the magazine was the main problem leading to jams. Otherwise, INSAS mechanism is excellent.

We have a huge stock of INSAS. Instead of discarding all of these, can all of them be upgraded and supplied to police across India as their primary weapon? Police / CRPF / CISF can standardize on this caliber for their rifle requirements.

[vonkabra]

INSAS Reborn: The Indian Army's Rifle Upgrade Journey.

An interesting (and positive) video after a long time. Thanks for sharing.

[VinodTK]

The ministry has cleared the purchase of 72,400 Sig Sauer assault rifles from the US, with deliveries already completed for a previous order of 72,400 rifles. The Indian Army is also planning to buy an additional 72,000 Sig Sauer assault rifles from the US. Additionally, the ministry has approved the procurement of static HF transceiver sets and smart anti-airfield weapons. These acquisitions are aimed at enhancing the firepower and combat capabilities of the armed forces./quote]
IDF

[Thakur_B]

Ak-203, negev and sig716 fitted with scopes on operational duties. Perhaps Thakur ji could identify the make of these.

pic courtesy of Northern command twitter handle.

Looks like OFB 2.5x scope used in INSAS. Probably updated for pic rail.

[nachiket]

Looks like the magazine was the main problem leading to jams. Otherwise, INSAS mechanism is excellent.

INSAS' operating mechanism is essentially the same as a standard AK albeit adapted for the 5.56mm cartridge. The magazine was one of things which was different alongside a few other ergonomic improvements like the polymer furniture, left-sided charging handle and fire selector and manual gas regulator copied from the FAL/SLR. We managed to take a rifle legendary for its reliability, improved it and made it less reliable.

[sanjayc]

Extensive testing of AK 203 rifle manufactured by IRRPL

[sanjayc]

Soldiers proudly flaunting their new guns

[bala]

Two infantry men talking about small arms.

Lt. Gen. Sanjay Kulkarni On The Gaurav Arya show.

Is It Time To Replace 'INSAS' Rifle?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVzLXrtQnn8

Talk is about standardize all weapons to the 7.62 x 51 mm in GSQR

[VinodTK]

Sig got an additional contract for 125,000 rifles from MOD
Indian Army Orders thousands Additional SIG716 Rifles for Army services

[Thakur_B]

73000, not 125000

[Manish_P]

Statement by SSS

[Rakesh]

Indian Firearms CEO Fires At Rifle Import Move
https://www.livefistdefence.com/indian- ... port-move/
28 August 2024

[sanjayc]

Generals will kill all private sector capability in defence. Not for nothing are they called Import Bahadurs.

Government is the biggest enemy of entrepreneurial spirit of Indian people since Independence. It is a continuation of British policy of not allowing Indian businesses to emerge as competitors to Western companies. Strangely, Indian govt. too followed the same policy after Independence by throttling Indian private companies by insisting on imports and nothing but imports. What was the British Raj doing different than this?

[ramana]

After Galwan the biog fear was PLA combat brigades. The Sig Sauer was a quick buy to arm the soldiers along the LAC with a good stand-off rifle.
I had estimated three tranches of 71K rifles would be needed. I am glad to note they are procuring the numbers.
BTW SSS had no chance as they were not ready in 2020.
With two tranches already placed its height of hope, that the third tranche could be local production as that would be a different rifle.

Neither were they ready when AK-203 was decided for the rest of the army.
Also they have their business model and are good at that.
Now I am flummoxed at Gen Kulkarni asking for an all 7.62x51 mm force.
Same Infantry officers claimed it was too powerful a cartridge for counter-insurgency.
The INSAS cartridge was too light!
All this sounds like a Goldilocks story.

[Manish_P]

^ possibly they might say that the homegrown Naxalite COIN operations are going down rapidly and now more and more COIN operations are against Pak army trained (even actual pak army without uniform) and well equipped jihadis or China backed Myanmaris.

Hence the need for better penetrative rounds.

I won't be at all surprised if they ask for a switch to 6.8 mm in a few years

[chetak]

73000, not 125000

Thakur ji,

This is a repeat order

The previous order was also for a similar number, give or take, from the same company,

[Thakur_B]

Yes, I know. Total order size is now 145400.

[chetak]

Yes, I know. Total order size is now 145400.

Thakur ji,


There may just be another tranche to be ordered sometime in the future.


The numbers will help us set up an economically viable spares depot, repair and service facilities, including doing upgrades / modifications that would have been written into a contract of this size.


The IA already has far too many types of small arms to think of adding more more types, in whimsically conjured up bits and pieces, numerically speaking.

Better brains than ours are seized of these matters and besides, there are the bean counters who are peering over every shoulder

These days careers vanish in a puff of smoke for far lesser offences, not to talk of prison time

[SRajesh]

Correct if I am wrong:
What Atmanirbhar Bharat has come to is a glorified 'Screwdrivergiri' in some form or the other.
And we have ANI sources (unlike the old Lutyens Kebab crowd) quoting Government officials (but unnamed as always).

[isubodh]

Correct if I am wrong:
What Atmanirbhar Bharat has come to is a glorified 'Screwdrivergiri' in some form or the other.
And we have ANI sources (unlike the old Lutyens Kebab crowd) quoting Government officials (but unnamed as always).

Its how you look at it. The 'Screwdrivergiri' is first step of being part of global supply chains. Only if you can mange it well and work your way up.

[Manish_P]

Correct if I am wrong:
What Atmanirbhar Bharat has come to is a glorified 'Screwdrivergiri' in some form or the other.
And we have ANI sources (unlike the old Lutyens Kebab crowd) quoting Government officials (but unnamed as always).

Its how you look at it. The 'Screwdrivergiri' is first step of being part of global supply chains. Only if you can mange it well and work your way up.

+1

Check how the South Korean, Turkey Mil Industry have come up....

[uddu]

Are we not doing Screwdrivergiri from Mig-21 times? Shishumar to Scorpenes and still looking at foreign shipyards to help us. Dont compare ourselves with the Chinese, Turkish, Koreans. They just need one design and from there onwards, they make their own. What helped us was Tejas. If not for the Tejas, be assured that we will have a Light Weight Combat Aircraft acquisition program. Our missile program is an exception and the realism of how independently things should be run. From Prithvi crashing into the oceans to Agni-V Ver2 is technology denials and mocking that got us here. Take the case of Akash. Akash NG came because of Akash MK1. Same with Pinaka. Same with AEWCS. Netra-II. Same with Nuclear subs. Arihant to S4* and so on.

[SRajesh]

Exactly my point 70 yrs on and we still at it
Jai Ho import Bahadur

[uddu]

The Atmanirbharta program is a good thing to do. But where the Government messed up was when they started giving equal treatment to Make in India compared to the Made in India initiative. That literally wiped out many Made in India competitors who were really good but the back door Screwdrivergiri entrants as usual misused the system to play for their benefit. Then the real Atmanirbhar players lost out and some of them even went back on their core competency and started doing what others were doing. Importing and putting stamp of Atmanirbharta. We still can come out of it, if Govt gives first priority or switches from Make in India to Made in India. Make in India is already running for about 11 years. Now slogan, first priority should be given to Made in India. That literally will ensure the gains (if any) from Make in India will start to make our own design and weapons. Otherwise Atmanirbharta will end like how Indian mobile companies once imported Chinese phones with Made in India sticker and later Chinese wiping them out by directly selling within India.

[chetak]

Exactly!

And since when is Adani a serious defense player? They have invested Zero in R&D. But today they build Hermes UAVs & LMGs and call themselves Atmanirbhar

They are a private sector BEL who does screwdriver-giri. There is not a single, self-respecting engineering graduate who would want to join Adani for learning or doing interesting work. But lots of them would want to join Boeing or LM or a host of other smaller defense startups. Even ones like Kalyani or Pixxel in India

I am increasingly disgusted by this. Rajnath Singh, because he cannot tell the difference between fine-muslin-cloth & toilet paper, thinks everything is Atmanirbhar! In that process, he is completely killing indigenous R&D. When only baniyas make money by license assembly, all local talent will flee abroad or join the baniya-gang. Even the Congress wouldn't have been able to achieve this level of destruction in our capabilities

Prem Kumar ji,


adani is a serious player, period

Deng Xiaoping famously said "It doesn't matter whether a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice."

adani has a big reputation to protect and he has done that well, and so far, he hasn't put a foot wrong.

He has not entered the defence sector by chance, he sees the potential and has the capital to support his ventures

as did mahindra, bharat forge, godrej et al and they were not defence players either, not when they started

adani has bought the vertical R&D from his JV partner, and consequently, has a relevant product to sell. He will share his profits and that's why the JV partners will stick around. Adani is solidly connected with the israeli govt and politicos because of his haifa port project

get real, bro .... there is very little to almost no local talent, not in DRDO, UNIVs, govt PSUs and we have no evidence of real capabilities or originality of thought to develop weapon systems. Yes, there are some outstanding performers in all these places, but they are few and far between

and what about the guy who is making sniper rifles in Bangalore, did he invent anything new, or did he study some successful rifles, reengineer, adapt, modify, mix and match and finally apply lipstick and call the press.

This is also R&D, this is also atmanirbhar, and no one can dispute it, not even you, because he has a reasonably decent product and this guy started out with a screwdriver in hand

serious cross pollination has taken place in industry, many guys from mahindra and godrej and L&T are ex forces, having hung up their uniforms, and some are running the show, some from DRDO and others from PSUs are also part of these teams, all good solid guys but it tales them some time to shift gears and step on the gas. The guy next to you does not know how much you are getting paid, and the same is true for him/her too

these guys don't have the luxury of "work life" balance, here no one applies for 1/2 day CL after a comfortable lunch, and then slimes off to see a matinee

many of adani's top team leads are almost exclusively from the PSUs, as is the case with mittal steel, JSW, and so many others

The defence minister HAS to be a big picture guy. not some idiot with grease on his hands

It never works out otherwise

[VinodTK]

From LIVEFIST: Countershot Over India’s Latest Rifle Import

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Geopolitics and defence commentator Rohit Vats offers a counterpoint on the debate. This was published first on his social media handle, and being used here with permission:
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[YashG]

From LIVEFIST: Countershot Over India’s Latest Rifle Import

:
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Geopolitics and defence commentator Rohit Vats offers a counterpoint on the debate. This was published first on his social media handle, and being used here with permission:
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His argument is if you made mistake once, make it again. now when you would have made it twice...you will do it thrice & keep doing it.
It would be better to stop using the first lot, if logistics is the issue and get an indian rifle. It would still save money. put original lot into backup.

[Manish_P]

^ Same thread seems to run through the Army and AF

Why order Arjuns, let's order more T-series... will help commonality

Why order AMCA, let's order the Su-57s. After all they will have some commonality with the Su-30s. Like the tyres...

[sanjayc]

First, a foreign weapon system is purchased on "emergency basis." This way, foreign companies are given a foot in the door. For further orders, the argument is: "We already have that system. We cannot order anything Indian now, can we?, as then we will have two different types of that weapon, and that will be a logistical nightmare. So, yeah, let us give all follow-on orders to that foreign system that was originally bought due to "emergency reasons" ...

I really feel sorry for SSS Defense ... an ambitious, diligent company with fire in the belly and raring to go, being denied any opportunity to prove its mettle. The guy is only asking for a fair competition between his gun and foreign gun .. the winner can take the order. Even this, apparently, is too much to ask, as far as the Generals are concerned. They just won't allow SSS Defence to even participate.

Now that SSS Defence has aired its grievance on LinkedIn, the Generals will carry a grudge and double down on denying it any opportunity in future .. truly pathetic

[Rakesh]

India’s quest for small arms continues, with some twists and turns and heartburn along the way
https://theprint.in/defence/indias-ques ... y/2243854/
29 August 2024

[nachiket]

Are there any news reports from before the SIG 716 and AK 203 contracts were signed where these rifles (and any competitors) were undergoing extensive multi-year summer-winter-monsoon trials? The AK-203 announcement in particular seemed to come out of the blue and I at least do not know which other rifles were competing for that particular procurement.

[sanjayc]

India’s quest for small arms continues, with some twists and turns and heartburn along the way
https://theprint.in/defence/indias-ques ... y/2243854/
29 August 2024

SSS Defence could not make it into the list because it could not meet the minimum financial markings that were needed, it is learnt.

Hilarious! Deny a company the opportunity to participate in the tender because it is not "big enough." And never allow it to grow big enough by denying it orders.

Were all Western companies born big, or did they first start by operating from garage of the founder's parents? Why so much derision for an Indian startup?

The only solution is for Modi to reserve all small arms and ammunition to Indian companies, with only those products allowed that are "designed and made in India." The design IP has to be owned by the Indian company.