Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

[JTull]

DRDO has Rafale IR sensor as a more modern solution to compare with.

I am looking forward to seeing it on LCA Mk2 prototypes.

[bala]

India begins the most awaited Super Sukhoi Upgrade program

YT by Indian Defense Analysis

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OORIfatSMSs

A good recap of the upgrade program, with key upgrades - Uttam AESA Radar (Virupaksha), Advanced self protection jammer, Dhruti Digital RWR, IRST, etc.

[Rakesh]

₹60,000-crore Sukhoi fighter upgrade begins, to involve private sector in big way
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 831860.cms
20 Feb 2024

The mainstay Su-30MKI fighter jet fleet is set to undergo a comprehensive upgrade worth ₹60,000 crore. The upgrade will include new radars, mission control systems, electronic warfare capabilities, and integration of new weapon systems. Hindustan Aeronautics Limited, with support from DRDO, will lead the upgrade with heavy participation from the private sector.

[Rakesh]

IAF's Sukhoi fighter jets to get a Rs 60,000 crore booster: Here are all the upgrades for the new Su-30MKI
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 842591.cms
20 Feb 2024

Revamping 90 Su-30MKIs: new avionics and radars on the horizon
https://bulgarianmilitary.com/2024/02/2 ... e-horizon/
20 Feb 2024

[Kartik]

Su-30MKI's upgraded AESA radar will have a Vapor Cooling cycle for cooling it. The details for this are given in the image below



https://twitter.com/alpha_defense/statu ... _&ref_url=

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1762835 ... 88300?s=20 ---> The BrahMos missiles can hit targets at very long ranges.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/IAF_MCC/status/1763743122377621534?s=20 ---> On steady path to Atmanirbhar Bharat, contract signed on 01 Mar 2024 by MoD with an Indian manufacturer to upgrade the simulator of the Su-30MKI aircraft of the IAF. Led by MSME, this upgrade will incorporate all indigenous weapons and capabilities enhancing operational training for IAF pilots.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/Sukhwinder104/status/1766 ... 36496?s=20 ---> Stole this clip of Su-30MKIs showing off their anti-ship capabilities from reddit. My guess is that these are Maritime Flankers from the No.222 Squadron "Tiger Sharks" based in Thanjavur AFS. No.222 Squadron's Su-30s are capable of firing the BrahMos missile.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1779836341351862737 ---> Indian Air Force to partner with indigenous defence production industry to undertake design, development of Common Air-to-Ground Launcher for Su-30MKI under the Make-II procedure of DAP-2020. The AIP was granted on 18 March 2024. The acquisition of 150 launchers will be through the Buy (Indian-IDDM) route.

Tweets below are from May 2022...

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1522201429368184832 ---> IAF intends to partner with indigenous defence production industry to undertake the Design, Development and Manufacture of Common Launcher for Su-30MKI under MAKE-II.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1522201569797689344 ---> Universal Launcher planned to be developed in two versions i.e - one version for Air-to-Ground stores and other version for Air-to-Air Missiles.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1791494684885524546 ---> For the additional 12 Su-30MKI, HAL has already placed the supply orders of components with the Russians before the contract getting signed for seamless delivery of the orders in the current financial year, provided the contract is signed by the Govt of India.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1791486217328136445 ---> HAL will be the lead agency for the Super Su-30MKI program with Indian vendors and discussion with the industry has started. Things expected to materialize by a year: HAL.

[Rakesh]

EW Upgrade of Su-30MKI
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... su-30-mki/
22 May 2024

[srai]

^^^
Minimum 32 months for R&D.

Then production and installation.

So looks like we can expect the first lot of EW upgraded Su-30MKI around 2028.

[Rakesh]

Post upgrade, Rambha will get a new name! Su Su Rambha!

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1793941093727236357 ---> Super Sukhoi (aka Su Su).

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1800181925350670461 ---> CCS clearance for LCH with ATGMs, 12 Su-30MKIs and MP-ATGM to be granted, meeting likely in August 2024. Might include: 307 ATAGS and 100 K-9s as well.

[srai]

^^^
Taken a “long” time to acquire 12 more MKIs. Maybe would have been better to order 20 more instead of 12 more for fleet attrition reserves.

[Pratyush]

I have been hearing about this 12 aircraft order since atleast 2019.

If a cold assembly line has to be re-established in order to build the aircraft. Then we need to know if the tools and jigs are still in working order for re-establishment of production.

[ArjunPandit]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1800181925350670461 ---> CCS clearance for LCH with ATGMs, 12 Su-30MKIs and MP-ATGM to be granted, meeting likely in August 2024. Might include: 307 ATAGS and 100 K-9s as well.

from Russia? do they have spare su30s? or is it local assembly?

[Rakesh]

from Russia? do they have spare su30s? or is it local assembly?

Local assembly/manufacture and depending on other extenuating factors, the numbers could go up from 12.

[ArjunPandit]

thanks rakesh ji..i fail to understand why Tejas and Su-30 numbers are not bolstered in current environment.

[Rakesh]

thanks rakesh ji..i fail to understand why Tejas and Su-30 numbers are not bolstered in current environment.

No -ji for me please.

The current output of Tejas production and planned inductions are self explanatory and have been discussed to death in the various Tejas threads. No point getting into that here.

Su-30 numbers, on the other hand, have hit their max with Air HQ. The fact that they are not looking at beyond the 12 (perhaps 13 now with the recent crash on June 04th) is an indication that all eyes are focused on the mythical unicorn called MRFA.

[Prem Kumar]

And because the IAF Top brass are waiting for a mythical solution, rather than build up an overmatch vis-a-vis Pakistan, they probably don't inspire confidence in Modi that another Balakot is possible

Which is why Surgical Strikes have stopped after 2019

We don't control the escalation ladder

[Rakesh]

Saar, they don't need more Su-30MKIs to do another Balakot. What is there in the IAF fleet right now, is more than enough to handle the PAF.

The GOI is risk averse. Loss of pilots and/or plane(s) will cause takleef being in the 24-7 media cycle environment we live in. Loss of one MiG-21 (with then Wing Commander Varthaman being captured) caused enough rona-dhona. And DGISPR is the undisputed master of subterfuge, propaganda and lies. They will spin a wonderful yarn and the GOI could care less to counter it. The public narrative will be set in their favour, just like at Balakot.

Climbing up the escalation ladder is not worrisome for the GOI. It is the losses along the way that is the worry. To overcome that, our populace has to be mature to handle the losses. We are not.

[drnayar]

Saar, they don't need more Su-30MKIs to do another Balakot. What is there in the IAF fleet right now, is more than enough to handle the PAF.

The GOI is risk averse. Loss of pilots and/or plane(s) will cause takleef being in the 24-7 media cycle environment we live in. Loss of one MiG-21 (with then Wing Commander Varthaman being captured) caused enough rona-dhona. And DGISPR is the undisputed master of subterfuge, propaganda and lies. They will spin a wonderful yarn and the GOI could care less to counter it. The public narrative will be set in their favour, just like at Balakot.

Climbing up the escalation ladder is not worrisome for the GOI. It is the losses along the way that is the worry. To overcome that, our populace has to be mature to handle the losses. We are not.

Won't this beg the question that military can't show the bang for the bucks spent...literally?!! Where is the capability for the fourth largest military expenditure if it can't take on a Banana Republic?

[Rakesh]

Won't this beg the question that military can't show the bang for the bucks spent...literally?!! Where is the capability for the fourth largest military expenditure if it can't take on a Banana Republic?

When Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa was the Air Chief, a media person asked him about the IAF's capability vis-a-vis Pakistan. His response was that the IAF can overwhelm the PAF. There is no reason to doubt that statement, as the asymmetry between the two air forces is clearly visible. And that capability has only grown larger since he demitted office in Sept 2019. But just because that asymmetry exists, it does not mean the IAF will come out unscathed. It most certainly will lose men and material. Planes will get shot down and pilots will die. And if the pilot is captured by these barbarians, expect physical torture just as Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja, Flight Lieutenant (later Group Captain) Kambampati Nachiketa and Wing Commander (now Group Captain) Abhinandan Varthaman faced.

But this is war and with Pakistanis, expect worse. War against Pakistan (or China) is not akin to delivering flowers on Valentine's Day. Attrition during war is what the IAF accounts for and expects. See Exercise Gagan Shakti and how the IAF gamed out possible attrition losses.

But it is the GOI and our own populace that is not able to stomach these losses. DGISPR will pass up no opportunity to shame India and in our hyper partisan political environment, any loss of plane and/or pilot will immediately be spun as egg-on-the-face-on-India by the opposition. The opposition could care less about standing united against India's enemies. It is all about grand-standing and getting into power, by any means necessary. And if they have to railroad the GoI or even the IAF, they will gladly do it without even blinking an eyelid. The end justifies the means.

Victory in war is not based on how many planes you lost versus how many the enemy lost (this is how Pakistanis think), rather it is whether the objectives of war were met. In India, the military (usually) meets the objectives set out, but we (always) lose the narrative and we readily give up valuable bargaining chips to appear magnanimous to the enemy and even on the global stage. This magnanimity is borne out of some weird twisted thinking about nobility and moral courage. Magnanimity is lost on barbarians and is viewed as a weakness.

There was an Israeli Air Force commander who once very poignantly remarked, "It is OK to die in war." The Israeli people - as a general rule - have a steely resolve and are mentally prepared to slug it out, because their very survival is at stake. Do we have that resolve as a people?

[Prem Kumar]

Rakesh: you are underestimating the average Indian's appetite for war. We, as a society, don't seek out war. But are perfectly capable of uniting to give a bloody nose to the enemy.

The public support for 1962, 71 & Kargil are testimony to this. Balakot caused a spike in popularity for Modi, propelling him in 2019 LS elections. As an aside, that's why the Congress-ISI alliance postponed the latest attacks to *after* the election results.

We mourn our fallen heroes but are stoic about it. Balidan ethos is strong.

But the public is not going to bay for blood after these attacks. They believe that its the Govt's job to punish Pakis. Once the Govt does that & displayss Kshatriyata, the public will full-heartedly stand behind the Govt.

The ball is in Modi's court, not in the court of the average Indian.

[Rakesh]

Saar, it is about the appetite to continue fighting...despite losses. That appetite does not exist. We want to win, with zero losses. That is not possible.

The rona-dhona on BRF (and elsewhere) - over a single MiG-21 shoot down at Balakot - was a sight to see. One can only imagine what pandemonium would occur if the IAF lost Rafales, Su-30MKIs, Mirage 2000s or even Tejas.

Both at Uri and Balakot, the Army and the Air Force factored in losses during the planning stages. It was a divine miracle that at Uri, there was no loss of life of SF personnel and at Balakot, the IAF lost just a MiG-21.

The Allied invasion in France (Normandy Landings, World War 2) saw 10,000+ troops killed. The Germans lost anywhere from 4,000 to 9,000 personnel. But history teaches us that D-Day was a decisive victory for the Allies. The objective was met, despite heavier Allied losses.

[drnayar]

Won't this beg the question that military can't show the bang for the bucks spent...literally?!! Where is the capability for the fourth largest military expenditure if it can't take on a Banana Republic?

When Air Chief Marshal BS Dhanoa was the Air Chief, a media person asked him about the IAF's capability vis-a-vis Pakistan. His response was that the IAF can overwhelm the PAF. There is no reason to doubt that statement, as the asymmetry between the two air forces is clearly visible. And that capability has only grown larger since he demitted office in Sept 2019. But just because that asymmetry exists, it does not mean the IAF will come out unscathed. It most certainly will lose men and material. Planes will get shot down and pilots will die. And if the pilot is captured by these barbarians, expect physical torture just as Squadron Leader Ajay Ahuja, Flight Lieutenant (later Group Captain) Kambampati Nachiketa and Wing Commander (now Group Captain) Abhinandan Varthaman faced.


There was an Israeli Air Force commander who once very poignantly remarked, "It is OK to die in war." The Israeli people - as a general rule - have a steely resolve and are mentally prepared to slug it out, because their very survival is at stake. Do we have that resolve as a people?

Just my opinion. Bharat is a war race. Conflict has existed since time immemorial in the sub continent. We have fought 3 wars with nuclear armed nations and a perpetual low intensity conflict at multiple fronts since independence.

We have lost thousands of soldiers pilots and.sailors in those conflicts.

Admiral I think the social media conflict is what you are concerned about. The shaping of narratives with " unacceptable " loss " ... this is very much a reality.

India even now has capability to absorb and fight back a two front war

We need to be better fight the social media war and build our own narratives..the elections are just a poignant reminder ... not the right information reaching the right people at right time. And the cost ? ..

The enemy has seen our achilles heel ..

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1812864732270895587 ---> Will the importance of the Su-30MKI gradually reduce amidst the rise of new generation stealth platforms? I don't think so. The sheer payload capability, impressive range, and fantastic avionics will keep playing an important role in combat in the next few decades.

[Manish_P]

^ The B52 has been there for 70 years... and might well be there for triple digits.

After the door has been opened you need the big boys to deliver the furniture.

[Kailash]

Series production of aesa radar - GaN??

[ashishvikas]

Draft Note On Sukhoi Upgrade Project All Set To Head For PM-Led Panel’s Nod

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 910699.cms

The defence ministry has more or less finalised the ‘draft note’ for the approval of the PM-led cabinet committee on security (CCS) for the upgrade of the first lot of 84 Sukhoi jets at an overall cost of around Rs 63,000 crore, which includes the design and development phase, sources told TOI.

All the 84 twin-engine Sukhois will be upgraded by Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) in around 15 years. After the CCS sanction, it will take seven years for development work and flight-testing, which will then be followed by the progressive upgrade and induction of jets in batches.

The present upgrade project will include equipping Sukhois with indigenous ‘Virupaksha’ advanced electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, which will increase the detection range by “1.5 to 1.7 times” over existing Russian radars.
This, in turn, will allow Sukhois with longer-range weapons like Astra-3 air-to-air missiles, with a beyond visual range of 350-km. While IAF is currently inducting Astra-1 missiles (100-km), DRDO is developing Astra-2 (160-km) and Astra-3 (with solid fuel ducted ramjet propulsion) variants.

[fanne]

7 years to test and then make changes? What they were doing till now?

[AkshaySG]

Shambles all round, Starting from the 15 step 5 year process to get anything approved.

15 years to upgrade 5-6 squadrons of a machine we have been producing with supposed "ToT" for the last two decades and a half

Super Sukhoi plans have been around for the last decade so to think another 7 years for R&D & Testing is quite ridiculous imo

And even once that is done I can't see why it will take them another 8 years for 84 upgrades.. Our competition churns out 30-40 of new Jets a year and we can't even upgrade one squadron per year?

[srai]

15 years means 2040

Only 1/3 of the Su-30MKI fleet will be upgraded by then. So then the rest would be “retired”? Oldest Su-30MKIs would be almost 50 years old by then.

It would actually makes more sense for the IAF to continue to order more newly built Su-30MKIs in Super Sukhoi configuration as the older airframes are retired without upgrades.

[S_Madhukar]

As our economy does better shouldn’t we be having better processes, tech and shorter timelines? Is it a case that money is released in tranches hence the slow pace ?

[bala]

These waterfall management models are old and outdated concepts. Today it is all about concurrent stuff, agile processes and incremental dashes/sprints and such. The MoD Babus love the old model since it means no sweating for them. IAF, HAL and MoD should move out of such planning into modern day stuff. I don't think finance is the issue, it is Babus who make it out that way. You need a good program management team that deals with all kinds of Risk to the project. HAL is stalling for time since they slacked of during the election period. GE engines or not HAL should have had the airframes ready awaiting engine fitment for LCA. Su-30MKI can be achieved much quicker than lazy planning of 7-8yrs. No one is worried about delay and even more delay of things due to Risks. This is where you need a Mantriji to put a stop to such nonsense, but Rajnath Singh is rather clueless and letting the MoD Babus dictate the pace.

[VinodTK]

Draft Note On Sukhoi Upgrade Project All Set To Head For PM-Led Panel’s Nod

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... 910699.cms

If the time frames stand are true, PM-Led Panel should reject the proposal; and use the money for some other purpose

The whole proposal feels like a perputal employment scheme.

[Sumeet]

Imagine this is situation in Modi govt what will be the case if there is some other govt.

I think its better for us to join joint manufacturing for 5th Gen with France/Germany or with UK/Italy/Japan for next gen fighter. Otherwise we will be proudly flying Super Sukhoi MKI when all over the world forces will be flying 5th/6th Gen fighters.

This is the reason why I have also stopped posting in military forum. It's very depressing even with NDA govt in power.

[maitya]

Shambles all round, Starting from the 15 step 5 year process to get anything approved.

15 years to upgrade 5-6 squadrons of a machine we have been producing with supposed "ToT" for the last two decades and a half

Super Sukhoi plans have been around for the last decade so to think another 7 years for R&D & Testing is quite ridiculous imo

And even once that is done I can't see why it will take them another 8 years for 84 upgrades.. Our competition churns out 30-40 of new Jets a year and we can't even upgrade one squadron per year?

Oh man, 15years for implementing a 84 aircraft upgrade ...

Betw isn't this upgrade only strictly limited to avionics - i.e. no structural changes like Fin/Wings/Canard/V Stabiliser/LG Bay doors etc replacement by Carbon Fiber Composites, no FBW (on offer from the OEM) introduction, no new Engine (AL-41F on offer by OEM) etc - pure avionics upgrade, and maybe some structural life extension aspects (not sure).

Then why on earth will it take 7 years for R&D and Certification, followed by 8 years to implement the upgrades to 84 airframe (so @7-8airframes/year).

Call me stupid, but is there some sort of unitary method at work here - I mean 50 M2K Upgrade took 10+ years (2011 - 2021 planned, but actually 2023/2024), so a 84 Su-30 will take 15years!!
What exactly is the point in upgrading 30% of the fleet, over 15 years, by which time the remaining 70% would be up for retirement?

Must be something in it, that has not been publicly revealed yet.

[Kartik]

15 years means 2040

Only 1/3 of the Su-30MKI fleet will be upgraded by then. So then the rest would be “retired”? Oldest Su-30MKIs would be almost 50 years old by then.

It would actually makes more sense for the IAF to continue to order more newly built Su-30MKIs in Super Sukhoi configuration as the older airframes are retired without upgrades.

There will be another program for the remaining Su-30MKIs. This is being done to ensure that obsolescence doesn't start impacting the program before the completion of the upgrade itself. 84 Su-30MKIs at the rate of say 18 per year means 5 years for the upgrade from the first airframe to the last. And for the first airframe itself to go in to HAL Nashik for upgrade will take 5-6 years.

In the meantime, the 12 new Su-30MKIs that CCS approved will most likely be built using the radar, EW suite, IRST, mission computer and other avionics that is going into the Super 30.

The upgrades are extensive and will be most likely timed to coincide with Su-30MKIs that needed to go in for their overhaul. But that will mean that they will be out of the hands of squadrons for an extended period while they get overhauled and upgraded.

Once the 84 are upgraded, they'll take the next batch and upgrade them, with even newer GaN AESA radars, GaN AESA suite, a more modern HUD, LAD, etc. AMCA will by then be in advanced stages of testing, so a lot of the technologies being developed for it now will be more mature and ready to be used for the next set of Su-30MKI upgrades.