Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[SSridhar]

DRDO successfully flight-tests Phase-II Ballistic Missile Defence System

The Phase-II AD Endo-atmospheric missile was launched from LC-III at ITR, Chandipurat 1624 hrs.

[vonkabra]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/cit ... abilities.

S400 tested by the IAF. Wonder when they will actually test the missiles against targets.

[Hriday]

^^^
So apparently SU30 with SAP-14 wide band jammers and Rafale which had performed well against S-300 class systems will not survive against S-400.

There is an interview forwarded by Resonant News on Twitter in which Brahmos CEO comments that even the Chinese S-400 couldn't stop Brahmos missile. Chinese too had a variety of supersonic cruise missiles and solid-fueled Kinzhal-type hypersonic missiles.

So we can expect the main SAM systems on both sides of the borders to get destroyed within the first hour of a war?
That means like what Serbia did SAMs can be used only as surprise attacks and then shut down and driven away quickly.

One more thing, I had earlier posted about the news of Rafael firm from Israel which had developed a SAM called Sky Sonic that can shoot down hypersonic missiles of upto 10 mach. They term it as revolutionary. It is said to be the world's first hyper sonic interceptor. I wonder whether India should look into it or if our AD-1 would be enough.

[Pratyush]

Hriday,

You are developing a habit of asking an excellent set of questions on various topics.

I don't have specific set of answers for your questions. Because the answers you are seeking will result in my writing a book over the next few weeks. And I would not even have scratched the surface. And I absolutely hate writing on any topic

But what I would suggest for you. Is to try to read defence publications covering the various weapon systems. Those publications generally also provide the context for the development of the specific systems.

Also try to read as much as possible about historical war time use of radars and EW right from WW2 till date.

The reason why I am asking you to do so, is that it will provide you with the ability to understand the operational context for the development of different systems. Both airborne and surface launched.

Once you have developed that capacity. You will be able to reach for the answers for most of the questions that you can have. From the POV of a civilian.

[Pratyush]

Second, operational capacity of EW system will never be available in open domain. So answers for some of the questions have to be taken on faith.

[Hriday]

^^^
Pratyush ji, thanks for the suggestions. Over 15 years ago I was addicted to BRF missile thread. Spent many hours of the day just drooling over various missile photos and their specifications. Now I don't feel like spending that much time, but still follow this thread because missiles win war.

Adding just one more interesting fact about Brahmos here; long ago Arun_S commented on the photo of a Brahmos missile that had several triangular cuts along the rim of air intake; saying that it would add more stealth. He also said F-22 class stealth is possible for Brahmos. Maybe that's the basis of statements like Brahmos can't be shot down.

[Pratyush]

I cannot look at an object and definitely state it's radar returns or wether it can be intercepted or not.

But having seen and read about SAM interceptions. I can definitely state the following.

The success of failure of a SAM system is a function of several factors. Namely, but not limited to; (and I am including multiple additional factors within the list below)

1) Detection and tracking.
2) The Interception geometry.
3) Available energy for the interceptor missile.

If interception geometry is optimal. Any airborne/ space born object can be intercepted. If it's within the operational parameters of the specific system.

If Interception geometry is not optimal, even the best system in the world with fail to intercept the target.

This is not addressing the human factors, in terms of training, stress, morale, etc.

Include the 2, and variables for a successful interception go up substantially.

It's as clear as the mud.

[Hriday]

Pratyush ji, thanks for the information. Just one more question. Karan M used to endorse Karlo Copp's writings on the Air Power Australia website. In the first part of his writings on F-22, Karlo said that F-22 had the kinematic performance to defeat S-300 class systems. Is it true? From what I had read, S-300 missiles reach near hypersonic speed on their dive to targets from high altitudes. I ask in the context that the SU-30 of China would have plenty of fuel to maintain such speed to evade our S-400.

[Pratyush]

The pure aerodynamic performance of the jet is meaning less in the absence of top notch EW systems. So, if the F 22, is tracked by the SAM system, then it's possible for SAM to kill the jet. Regardless of the kinematic performance of the jet. The missile, if shot within the ideal Interception geometry, will win. As the missile is not limited by the performance of the pilot.

[Hriday]

^^^
Pratyush ji, thanks for the reply.

[pravula]

F22 is not gonna outrun the missile. What it can do, is try to force energy bleed on the missile along with ecm

[basant]

Air Force approves production of 200 Astra missiles

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has given clearance to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) to produce 200 Astra air-to-air missiles for its Su-3O and LCA Tejas fighter aircraft.

The clearance was given to the DRDO and public sector firm BDL, during a recent visit by Indian Air Force Deputy Chief Air Marshal Ashutosh Dixit to Hyderabad.

[Pratyush]

For this measly 200 missile production clearance. The IAF chief was talking about the need to have a second production line.

[ashthor]

Different from the earlier order? If so this is the second batch.

[Pratyush]

This is not an order, this is clearance for the firm to produce the missiles.

No firm contract has been signed for these 200 nos missiles.

[Yogi_G]

On a slightly more optimistic note, the 200 missile order will probably be the last one for mark 1 and all subsequent clearances will be for the mark 2.

[srai]

^^^
Both Mk1 and Mk2 can be in service. I don’t think those Mk2 is a direct replacement for Mk1. If you look at the DRDO posters Mk1 has CCM capabilities. Don’t know about Mk2.

[srai]

This is not an order, this is clearance for the firm to produce the missiles.

No firm contract has been signed for these 200 nos missiles.

If it takes this long to even order 200 indigenous missies through the bureaucracy, then the IAF done an injustice by ordering only so few. Order in bulk of 1,000 at the minimum. These have better ranges than R-77 and MICA.

[Pratyush]

The Astra Mk2 will be undergoing final operational tests by the end of the year. Only then will any orders will be placed.

[Aditya_V]

This must be further orders for Astra 1

https://bdl-india.in/sites/default/file ... 202024.pdf

During the quarter, the Company commenced delivery of Astra Air to Air missile (BVR).

They are referring to Q3 FY 2324- Oct 23 to Dec-23

[srai]

The Astra Mk2 will be undergoing final operational tests by the end of the year. Only then will any orders will be placed.

Always waiting for the next best thing… so close yet too far

[JTull]

The Astra Mk2 will be undergoing final operational tests by the end of the year. Only then will any orders will be placed.

Electronic interface is same as MK1. Launcher is same. Launch codes will likely be similar with somewhat different mission profiles. Dual pulse motor is under serial production for SAMs. Seeker and warhead are also in serial production.

Why does it need 4 years after MK1 to qualify? Can the knowledgeable people please explain why is it taking so long?

Any why do Operational tests need to be completed before production? This is absurd!

[basant]

Were orders placed for Astra Mk2?

[Pratyush]

Nah.

[sanjayc]

The Astra Mk2 will be undergoing final operational tests by the end of the year. Only then will any orders will be placed.

I doubt it. IAF would rather wait for Astra MK3, and after that for MK4. Only a full-scale Chinese invasion can prod them to actually order something, that too on "emergency basis"

[basant]

Preproduction is a pragmatic policy. When it comes to production in anticipation for our services though, a classic case study is HAL LCH (Prachand). HAL started LSP production but those were not picked up. Until China attacked. Then, they started *using* the helos, IIRC, without even paying for it. That was a few years ago. Current status, HAL received RFP from MoD for 156 light combat helicopters. This was in Jun 19, 2024.

[SSridhar]

DRDO successfully test fires Made-in-India portable anti-tank missile - watch - ToI

The defence research and development organisation on Tuesday conducted successful test-firing of the indigenously developed Man-Portable Anti Tank Guided Missile (MP-ATGM). The test took place at a field firing range located in Jaisalmer, Rajasthan, DRDO officials said.

The MP-ATGM is a portable, shoulder-launched missile system designed to neutralize enemy tanks and armored vehicles.

There is a small clip to watch as well.
Is this user evaluation trials?

[nash]

If not user trial then for sure ready for user trial.

https://x.com/ANI/status/1823245054531506648

[SSridhar]

If not user trial then for sure ready for user trial.

[Kartik]

Confirmed that the latest order for Astra Mk1 is an additional order for 200 missiles. That is in addition to the 200 Astra Mk1 for the IAF and 48 for the IN placed in 2022. Looks like BDL would've completed deliveries from the earlier order for 248 and will now start production of the next batch of 200 missiles.

IAF approves additional Astra Mk1 production

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has approved the production of 200 additional Astra Mk 1 air-to-air missiles, an IAF source confirmed to Janes on 8 August.

According to the source, IAF Deputy Chief of the Air Staff Air Marshal Ashutosh Dixit granted the service's approval for the production during a visit to the manufacturer, Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL), in Hyderabad, South India, earlier in August. The missile first entered IAF service in 2017.

Janes understands that the approval for production will support deliveries of the missile to IAF units operating the Tejas Mk 1 and Sukhoi Su-30s. The IAF source could not specify the timeline of deliveries of the additional batch, stating that this was dependent on BDL's production schedule.

“However, we require the missiles as soon as possible,” the IAF source said.

The approval for the additional production comes nearly two years after the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) awarded BDL a contract in 2022 to supply the 200 missiles and associated equipment to the IAF, as well as 48 for the Indian Navy, according to an MoD announcement in May 2022. The contract had a value of INR29.7 billion (USD350 million).

[Nikhil_Naya]

The Astra Mk2 will be undergoing final operational tests by the end of the year. Only then will any orders will be placed.

Electronic interface is same as MK1. Launcher is same. Launch codes will likely be similar with somewhat different mission profiles. Dual pulse motor is under serial production for SAMs. Seeker and warhead are also in serial production.

Why does it need 4 years after MK1 to qualify? Can the knowledgeable people please explain why is it taking so long?

Any why do Operational tests need to be completed before production? This is absurd!

FWIW - Though the 'parts' are tested, as a whole the system has to be tested in various flight regimes, launch patterns, etc.
For example - with the added length/ weight characteristics when launched in a certain flight envelope does it lead to 'pop up' (interference with the firing platform) and so on. These tests are critical.
Can orders be placed before this? Yes and No - example, if there is a certain anomaly detected say which leads to shift of something as simple as a battery inside the tightly packed missile - the associated materials also have to be changed/ redesigned. Say, I order the missile and the production agency makes / orders this part - which undergoes a minor change - that goes to waste.
I have experienced something like this with a part that a company I worked for used to manufacture - it was used in an Airbus jet - which during testing had to be changed (the change was literally minor - actuator arm degrees of freedom changed by a few mm, which in aircraft parlance is a huge thing) - we had to scrap about 2000 or so parts and the production line also had to undergo changes followed by calibration and testing - a time consuming and expensive affair.

[SSridhar]

𝗗𝗥𝗗𝗢 𝗰𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗶𝗲𝘀 𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝘀𝘂𝗰𝗰𝗲𝘀𝘀𝗳𝘂𝗹 𝗺𝗮𝗶𝗱𝗲𝗻 𝗳𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝘁𝗲𝘀𝘁 𝗼𝗳
𝗟𝗼𝗻𝗴 𝗥𝗮𝗻𝗴𝗲 𝗚𝗹𝗶𝗱𝗲 𝗕𝗼𝗺𝗯 ‘𝗚𝗔𝗨𝗥𝗔𝗩’ 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗦𝘂-𝟯𝟬 𝗠𝗞-𝗜 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗺 - X

[pravula]

That looks like a new produced bomb body, not a retrofit kit. Hopefully it will be cheaper....

[Prem Kumar]

1) Very welcome news about Astra-Mk1 additional order! But it bears repeating that these are still woefully inadequate numbers. US supplied Pakis with 500 AIM-120s back in 2006. And Astra-Mk1 is the only BVRAAM in our inventory that matches the AIM-120C/D. There was no reason the IAF could not have placed a larger order and bulk one at that, instead of this piecemeal business. But I guess that's asking for too much

Astra-Mk2 is still a few years away from induction, given our glacial pace of procurement. Hope the IAF is not doing this constant "wait for the next best thing"

2) Regarding Gaurav, I think this is a new variant. The earlier Gaurav test happened way back in 2021 (same 100 Km, 1000 Kg from Su-30 MKI), but it used laser-targeting. The latest test uses GPS, INS, IRNSS for targeting (though even the laser version would need some level of INS/GPS mid-course correction before using lasing for terminal targeting). Hopefully both variants are ordered in numbers. Not sure why there is no news of Gaurav testing (laser one) in the last 2 years - hope its happening and its just us who are unaware of it

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 80880.html

Yes, Gaurav is a purpose-built glide bomb and not a guidance kit for retrofitting iron bombs - the latter are the PG-HSLD kits & the TARA project

3) Btw, no news on SAAW - has been "successfully tested" dozens of times since 2016 and no word on any actual orders

4) There is also a HSLD Mk-2 in the works and the IAF has issued an RFP this month. It states a 180 Km range, for fitting on-board our Mig-29Ks. But since its a Make-III project, this could be license-assembly

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... -missiles/

https://www.makeinindiadefence.gov.in/a ... e/HSLD.pdf

[Pratyush]

X posting from the UAV thread as it belongs here as well.

India unveils lethal swadeshi kamikaze drones with 1000 kms range

Dr Abhay Pashilkar, Director of the National Aerospace Laboratories, who is spearheading the research says, "India is developing these fully indigenous kamikaze drones, they are a game-changing 21st century new age war machine".

The Indian kamikaze drone will be around 2.8 meters long with a wingspan of 3.5 meters, weigh about 120 kg and carry an explosive charge of 25 kilograms.

Dr Pashilkar told NDTV, that the Indian loitering munition will have an endurance of about nine hours meaning, that once launched, it can continuously hover in the area of interest. After the target is identified, the controller after authorization can send the do-and-die drone on its suicide mission.

The kamikaze drone will use a 30-horsepower Wankel Engine designed and developed by the National Aerospace Laboratories and can fly continuously for 1,000 kilometres with a maximum speed of 180 kilometres per hour.

The Indian version will be able to work in GPS-denied scenarios and can use the Indian NAViC for navigating and homing on to the target.

[Manish_P]

^ Thank you, Pratyush ji

Need these flying bombs to be made in the thousands. And then move to develop improved variants (heavier payload, longer range)

Images from article below

[srai]

^^^
So apparently SU30 with SAP-14 wide band jammers and Rafale which had performed well against S-300 class systems will not survive against S-400.

There is an interview forwarded by Resonant News on Twitter in which Brahmos CEO comments that even the Chinese S-400 couldn't stop Brahmos missile. Chinese too had a variety of supersonic cruise missiles and solid-fueled Kinzhal-type hypersonic missiles.

So we can expect the main SAM systems on both sides of the borders to get destroyed within the first hour of a war?
That means like what Serbia did SAMs can be used only as surprise attacks and then shut down and driven away quickly.

One more thing, I had earlier posted about the news of Rafael firm from Israel which had developed a SAM called Sky Sonic that can shoot down hypersonic missiles of upto 10 mach. They term it as revolutionary. It is said to be the world's first hyper sonic interceptor. I wonder whether India should look into it or if our AD-1 would be enough.

Follow the Russian-Ukraine war for S-300/S-400 vs ATACMs/Scalp. Also, Patriot vs Russian aviation/missiles.


Patriot Proves Counter-hypersonic Capability

June 25, 2023

Two batteries of the Raytheon SAM system sent to Ukraine immediately proved their worth, shooting down Russia’s vaunted Kinzhal hypersonic missile.
…
Raytheon’s Patriot surface-to-air missile (SAM) system has shot down seven Russian Kh-47 Kinzhal air-launched hypersonic missiles over Ukraine in the past few weeks. The success was confirmed by Colonel Serhiy Yaremenko, commander of the 96th Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade. “No one was sure that the Patriot was capable of destroying a Kh-47. Ukrainians proved it,” he told the Wall Street Journal.
…
The U.S. has so far provided two Patriot batteries to Ukraine to defend Kyiv. A first engagement on May 4 intercepted a single Kh-47. Days later, six more were detected at a range of 125 miles and all were destroyed, the last at just nine miles and seconds before impact. Ukraine has both the PAC-3 missile and the previous PAC-2 version. The country is also facing attacks from the Iskander hypersonic ballistic missile, from which the Kinzhal was derived.

Raytheon chief executive Greg Hayes told the Wall Street Journal that he was surprised at how effective the Patriot had become. He said that Ukraine has tweaked the system’s software to track and destroy hypersonic missiles flying twice as fast as it was designed for. He also noted that his company was increasing annual production to 12, and plans to deliver five more to Ukraine by the end of next year.
…

[Jay]

^ Thank you, Pratyush ji

Need these flying bombs to be made in the thousands. And then move to develop improved variants (heavier payload, longer range)

Images from article below

Is think engine developed/manf locally or an import? I could not find much info online.

[Pratyush]

The article says self developed 30 HP wankel engine developed by NAL.

[rrao]

The article says self developed 30 HP wankel engine developed by NAL.

An IIsc professor developed a Wankel engine for a powered microlight aircraft years ago , which was shown on TV till recently on every science and technology programs of India. may be this one is an upscaled version of the same.