Air Force Tejas Mk1A: News & Discussions: 02 January 2022

[Rakesh]

Grappling with fighter jet shortage, IAF loses hope of timely delivery of Tejas from HAL this fiscal
https://theprint.in/defence/grappling-w ... l/2201033/
31 July 2024

https://x.com/zone5aviation/status/1818696189451063707 ---> Seeing a spectrum of reactions in response to this. Some are raging mad, others disappointed/sad, and for a few it's looped all the way round to comedy. That last group is mainly old timers/long time defence wallahs of course. Plus ça change and so on...

https://x.com/hellfire_81/status/1818812805195387114 --> Remember indigenization?

The ball is now in their hand ..... and they have spectacularly dropped it.

For all who will go on whataboutary, I have only this to say - "Project (Poor) Planning & Project (Mis) Management."

https://x.com/zone5aviation/status/1818921652702323144 ---> I wasn’t trying to be prophetic when I wrote this, I swear.

Link to article (dated 17 Jan 2021) below: https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/tejas-resurgent

[VinodTK]

It is way past time; HAL should be split into manageable units to have transparancy and accountability, It should be split into the following units/companies:
1. Fixed Wing (transport & IAF trainor aircraft)
2. Fighter wing
3. Rotator wing
4. UAV's and emerging technologies

Each unit having its own management structure, deliverables, budget, and accountability

[Rakesh]

Until HAL gets out of the DPSU umbrella and into the private sector, no reform will be effective. It will be lipstick on a pig.

[Cain Marko]

The very fact that there is an MRFA tamasha going on (instead of just G2G Rafales) shows how serious the IAF is about squadron shortage or war fighting

As usual, they will wake up when they see a Morning News that Pakistan has bought XYZ plane. Then it'll be time for emergency imports

There is a way out, put pressure on the US and French by teasing a purchase of the su57. Frankly, i prefer it to the raffle.

Push the French to offer cheaper raffles, push the US to offer cheaper f35. Neither of them will be able to oblige.

Buy the Felon aka Su 57MKI. make sure to get the izd engines with full and deep know how/why.

[srai]

There seems to be too much panic when it comes to indigenous products. Relax … everything will be fine

[Pratyush]

People have forgotten the F 35 development and production drama.

[Kartik]

HAL is planning to go ahead and use Category B (used engines) for the initial lot of Tejas Mk1A fighters till GE starts delivering F-404-IN20 engines.

There were several LSP prototypes from which these Category B engines could be removed, now that they're not participating in any developmental flight trials.

Engines for LCA Mk1A jets delayed, HAL prepares back up plan with used engines to begin deliveries

Delay in engine deliveries has further delayed the delivery of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA)-Mk1A by Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to the Indian Air Force (IAF). There is further delay of a few months in the delivery of F-404 engines by General Electric and HAL is now preparing a back up to install used engines. Subsequently, delivery of the first LCA-Mk1A to the IAF now aimed for November looks highly unlikely.

"Not a single engine has been received at the moment. They are now expected to be delivered from September onwards,” a defence official in the know said. “Since the engines have not arrived, HAL has come up with an alternate plan to install used engines on the initial batch of jets as an interim measure,” the official stated. The IAF is also involved in this process of using Category-2 or used engines as it is a temporary measure till the new engines arrive for which HAL is constantly engaged with GE, officials said.

..


Another defence official said expectation is that at least one LCA-Mk1A jet is delivered by year end and half a squadron or eight to nine jets by the end of this fiscal year.

Officials stated that manufacturing of the jets is underway at HAL and while there were other supply chain issues, the primary hold up is the engine delay. Even if some number of engines are delivered in the next few months, small batch of jets can delivered within short time frame, officials asserted.

..

[Rakesh]

There is a way out, put pressure on the US and French by teasing a purchase of the su57. Frankly, i prefer it to the raffle.

Push the French to offer cheaper raffles, push the US to offer cheaper f35. Neither of them will be able to oblige.

Buy the Felon aka Su 57MKI. make sure to get the izd engines with full and deep know how/why.

Too early to know the variables, but the Su-57 will come IMVHO.

AMCA will not come on time.

[Rakesh]

People have forgotten the F 35 development and production drama.

Production issues are common the world over. Nothing new there.

Apart from the GE delivery delay (that is a surprise, considering all the gyan we were given on BRF about the inexhaustible American MIC whose fire never goes dim), there are software issues, radar issues, etc. I hope this news is false, because if true...what has HAL been doing since the first prototype (LSP-8, KH-2018) flew on 20 May 2022? These issues are cropping up now, when deliveries are supposed to happen?

HAL has a penchant for over promising and under delivering. Even if they met the production schedule for 16 aircraft (or even 24) a year, this will not be enough to address the squadron shortage. Funds magically exist for everything under the sun (i.e. phoren fighters), but lame excuses (manpower, funds, induction capacity, etc) are readily available for local maal. India is on track to be a US $5 Trillion economy by the end of the decade. It is not a fund issue, or a manpower issue or an induction capacity issue. It is an issue of priorities.

As per wiki chacha, there are 300 J-20s in service with the PLAAF in 13 aviation brigades. Inducted into the PLAAF in 2018, so 6+ years. Works out to ~50 aircraft per year. Lets not even talk about J-10, J-15, J-16, etc. Priorities?

The company that makes the F-35, just recently delivered its 1,000th F-35 to a customer. This same company - in the 1980s - was producing around 30 F-16s a month. The order book for both aircraft was large (in four figures), so scaling up was not insurmountable. But the point is that Lockheed Martin is not a government controlled DPSU. There is accountability at Lockheed Martin, which does not exist at HAL.

We make great products (Tejas, Arjun, HJT-36, HTT-40, etc), but we struggle with production capacity and there is no desire to change. Priorities?

"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."
- President Ronald Reagan, 20 January 1981

[Rakesh]

Posted this on the previous page of this thread. Below is HAL's definition of accountability....

https://x.com/writetake/status/1817808633121710396 ---> Sources claim that both @DRDO_India and @HALHQBLR have issued strict instructions to their top management not to share anything with the Media, irrespective of who the info-seeker is. If this is true, then it is an insult to the media! Which level-headed journalist will seek info from DRDO & HAL -- 2 top-notch organizations wasting tax-payers' money. And, what is there to seek? What did RRM eat during the recent visit to HAL? Or what was the gsm of the paper used in DRDO's latest Technology Foucs mag? Phew! Doctors have warned me not to laugh, because it will strain my troubled neck. I am in a fix, folks! Stay tuned for #GodSaveHAL Part-3 going live today.

[Aditya_V]

GOI, HAL if I were incgharge, keep building out the Airframes, try getting hold of any surplus Ge 404 you can- I am sure there is some deal we can do to get used 404 engines with life in them till GE Production picks up, go full hog on Kaveri.

Yes some money will be wasted, but it better to do this than import which is what the rest of world and greedy ecosystem in India wants us to do.

And in such a sensitive time, I prefer media silence till numbers of aircraft are flying in the air.

[Aditya_V]

Nice video on LCA Tejas MK 1A

[sanman]

Nice video on LCA Tejas MK 1A

viewtopic.php?p=2626249#p2626249

[srai]

Typically when you are an employee/contractor of a company (public/private), you cannot divulge internal details to external parties. It’s called non-disclosure agreement

[ashishvikas]

Sep is just next month, let's hope GE delivers 2 engines.

[Rakesh]

Sep is just next month, let's hope GE delivers 2 engines.

Let's hope

[VinodTK]

Sep is just next month, let's hope GE delivers 2 engines.

Let's hope

How about the roumered issues with mission computer and AESA radar!

[ashishvikas]

India is pushing ahead with the production of indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) despite delays in jet engine deliveries, aiming to complete 14 airframes with integrated systems this financial year. The LCA Mk1A is undergoing extensive flight tests, with the first fighter expected to be delivered in two months. The air force has ordered 83 aircraft, and despite engine supply challenges, the delivery schedule is projected to be met by 2028.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 252308.cms

[Aditya_V]

India is pushing ahead with the production of indigenous light combat aircraft (LCA) despite delays in jet engine deliveries, aiming to complete 14 airframes with integrated systems this financial year. The LCA Mk1A is undergoing extensive flight tests, with the first fighter expected to be delivered in two months. The air force has ordered 83 aircraft, and despite engine supply challenges, the delivery schedule is projected to be met by 2028.

https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 252308.cms

My suggestion, order the 97 aircraft also, and start getting negotiating with GE , Keep building airframes, I am sure for 2220 engines plus F414 assembly, GE will be able to deliver more than 20 a year and production eco system will be in place, piecemeal orders for imports is ok where the host country just supplies surplus aircraft at a profit but for own production that too without an established ecosystem we need to order in bulk, production efficiencies will start coming with time.

I don't see Private sector doing any better when there is such a long gestation period with uncertain revenue. USA / Russia/ China/UK/ France/ Germany Governments had thrown in money many years ago, 100 to 50 years back, they are reaping the rewards today.

I feel the single biggest reason why our 71 war was different among other things was the induction of 100 Mig 21 plus 100 Su7's, along with OSA missile boats etc.. this helped the IAF soo much PAF could not keep up in 71. This will never happen again with imports, we need large scale induction of domestic products to again get a gap to implement necessary changes with respect for Pakistan.

[ashishvikas]

^^ from the article

India is already in talks with GE for significantly increasing the order for its GE 404 engines that will be required for an additional order of 97 LCA Mk1A aircraft that has been approved by the government. The approach is to place orders well in time to avoid any delays in deliveries.

[Aditya_V]

Very nice to hear

[Pratyush]

Looking at the situation...it appears that everything that can go wrong, is going wrong with the LCA program.

It's frustrating to not know the exact reasons for the delay. The supply chain management is a real thing. We need to learn exactly where the delay has happened.

We are hearing that GE is the bottleneck. We are also hearing that as early as 2021, GE had informed the HAL that they are facing issues with the supply chain management for engine production.

Yet HAL has been blithely claiming a delivery schedule. That it should have known cannot be met, why?

What are the chances that because of this delay, the IAF will now throw a tantrum and say. They no longer have any confidence in HALs ability to deliver, 97 Mk1A, the MWF, and AMCA. Further delaying the procurement contacts for those aircraft. Leading to further delays in production of the platforms.

[ashishvikas]

It's safe to assume HAL/IAF/Govt knows current status and delays happening by GE.

Maybe, GE 414 assembly was linked to Mk2 for a reason.

Still deal for 97 is work in progress- tells you something.

[basant]

Air Force approves production of 200 Astra missiles

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has given clearance to the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) and the Bharat Dynamics Limited (BDL) to produce 200 Astra air-to-air missiles for its Su-3O and LCA Tejas fighter aircraft.

The clearance was given to the DRDO and public sector firm BDL, during a recent visit by Indian Air Force Deputy Chief Air Marshal Ashutosh Dixit to Hyderabad.

[YashG]

At some point of time India will realise that Kaveri is the way to go if we want to build our own aircrafts at scale.

The only reason Kaveri is hobbled is due to corruption in MoD. We can make nuclear submarine because that we cant import, we can make cryo engine because that we cant import. Whatever cant be imported MoD babus dont kill those programs because no money to be made.... but the moment you have something that can be imported, MoD babus go for the kill.

All MoD babus want to make money via commissions. I repeat MoD babus are jaichands and deshdrohis. We should rename MoD as Ministry of Deshdrohis. Public should know who are the real 0.5 front inside india.

[basant]

Long ago, India realized that the Kaveri engine is the central piece of the IAF's stability, perhaps as early as the late '90s, if not earlier regarding the Marut. Only those who truly matter have refused to accept this reality as a matter of policy. For issues that do not even require 100% IQ, one cannot blame the bureaucrats alone; the responsibility falls squarely on those who control the purse strings and the clients themselves. The clients remain silent to avoid drawing attention, while politicians have other priorities for the funds.

[ashthor]

The ELM-2052 is an upgraded version of the ELM-2032...if Mark1 are flying without problem what could be the issue with M1A's 2052.
The jaguars are flying with which 2032 or 2052?

[Aditya_V]

I suspect it has a small element of truth along with some people trying to put the blame away from the Americans, many Indians based on personal immigration or personal money making believe that the American companies suppliers are a well oiled machine, that no problem can arise from them.

See past posts hammering for trying to make domestic or importing from Russia.

[maitya]

The ELM-2052 is an upgraded version of the ELM-2032...if Mark1 are flying without problem what could be the issue with M1A's 2052.
The jaguars are flying with which 2032 or 2052?

2032 is a std planar array radar with a slotted waveguide antenna whereas 2052 is an AESA - quite different from each other.

Jags (Darin-3) uses a 2052-variant, and a different variant of it, is slated for the single-seater Mk1As (the dual-seater ones will continue to use 2032s, like the Mk1s).

Different variant, as in maybe with higher number of TR modules etc, thus a slightly different radiating pattern, cooling requirement, power requirement etc etc - nothing drastically different as such, maybe (nobody would know anyway, as not open source), but the LNA, PA, Phase-shifters, Processing units etc may be are all exactly same.

So shouldn't be too much of an headache at this stage in the game - maybe some small integration issues here and there, but unfortunately, since it's for a desi program, even a slight issue gets amplified to make the program look as bad as possible.

You may have noticed, except for some 2-word utterings like "Radar Issue", just enough for DDM and the assorted egg-sperts to latch on to and build a -ve dooms-day narrative on it, nothing much has come out - it won't, as most probably there's nothing much of an issue anyway, IMVHO.

[fanne]

Trying to digest all the load of information and misinformation coming along (and concentrating purely on the news and not the interpretation, as all the eggsperts are just eggsperts).

1) There is one MK1A in testing (I would believe there is one more modified one from the FOC stable).

2) 6 of these are in advance stages of construction(and let me make an assumption, with new engines from reserve or wherever or maybe not).

3) Some 6-10 can be delivered by 2025 march 31, some with 'used engine'.

4) The current delay is due to not the 45 odd changes requested by IAF, but because a newer version of mission computer, Flight control computer (just the hardware) was introduced. The legacy one was old, the new one is needed as new modern systems needs higher throughput (both cpu and I guess RAM and Cache). This was last minute and getting tested. I suspect this was done with everyone knowledge and concurrence. The IAF anger on delay is for 16 not being delivered by 2025 March 31, somewhere it is getting lost in translation that the current delay in first plane not joining in Febor August or November is the issue. This does not mean that LCA hater or BIF gang within India or Chandigarh lobby will not try to muddy the water.

5) ELTA 2052 is having issue - maybe EM compatibility or heat sink or maybe compatibility with Astra...whatever, my guess minor, unless some parts of the plane is not compatible with it, maybe when onned it JAMS the FCS (just for example, not really the case). This is something can be fixed while planes are delivered. But who is in rush. We do not have engines.

6)I believe,the powers that be knew this at last an year or two before. Did you notice the flurry of activity around Kaveri? or for that matter project Ganga for AL31F and similar initiative for RD-33 and the push to buy used M2K.

7) So all in all, leadership not as clueless as one would like to believe. We are in a tight spot, but I guess all options are being worked out.

8] There is definite room for improvement, with the same constraints, with a better run ship, we could have still delivered 16 planes by 2025 march 31. I guess most frustration should be directed towards this.

[bala]

I think due to elections everyone went to sleep - MoD, HAL, IAF. After elections HAL was asked about delivery and they conveniently punted it to engine, GE, etc. GE of course is waiting for signal from the Deep State who are scratching their collective heads about the Bidenwa episode and the future of DNC. Hope the minor delay is sorted out and IAF / HAL get back in stride. I only wish mantriji was Manohar Parrikar type rather than Rajnath Singh. Maybe a Ashwini Vaishnaw kind of person would be ideal with an IIT background for defence. You have to have some in-depth gyan about defence matters or some engineering/business background, otherwise the bluffing by babus, officials and sundry others will have you flummoxed and clueless.

[fanne]

Rajnath Singh Ji has a masters in Physics and in fact has been lecturer in college teaching it. Not to take anything away from Parrikar ji, I have a feeling that the leadership is sieged with the matter.The problem lies elsewhere, we are expecting our blue eyed boy who is kambli to be sachin tendulkar. Can't happen

[Kartik]

Rajnath Singh Ji has a masters in Physics and in fact has been lecturer in college teaching it. Not to take anything away from Parrikar ji, I have a feeling that the leadership is sieged with the matter.The problem lies elsewhere, we are expecting our blue eyed boy who is kambli to be sachin tendulkar. Can't happen

So it's HAL's fault that GE Aerospace can't fulfill a signed contract?

[YashG]

^^^
It is MoD's baboos fault that we did not make good enough progress on Kaveri, to be either be in some place to use that engine or be in a place whr GE thinks if they dont supply - India will eventually move elsewhere.

You ask why Babus cz they dont change every 5 years - they bring policy consistently as govt. come and go. US govt is being run by career bureaucrats - Biden is doing nothing rn. But Indian babus kill any project that threatens their son's admission in Harvard or their commissions.

[basant]

IAF is the end user of Tejas. HAL, a PSU, does not produce engines, it manufactures a/c developed by ADA as nodal agency. Not long ago, IAF almost shutdown Tejas project itself. GTRE did make an engine with next to nothing infrastructure, experience and funding. HAL, ADA, GTRE and DRDO are full of babus. A large number of people worked at these organizations over years for a fraction of salary to realize the fighter that performed better than all except Rafale. Even while Migs were raining down, the IAF leadership was busy inventing new a/c category where Gripen and F-18s coexist to purchase a/c that is beyond their budget but ended up placing measly orders for both MRCA and Tejas initially. NONE of the politicians and the end users are so dumb as to not understand how critical engine tech is. But hey, let's rundown babus who can neither allot funds nor force IAF to accept the indigenous products.

Countries that produce fighters typically place orders even before IOC is obtained. Some like USA even produce hundreds by that time. But we have AF that wants higher production rates for 20-40 a/c. 'cos on odd days (for imports) they say they desperately need new a/c. And on even days (for desi products) they declare they will defend with whatever resources they have but need a perfect fighter.

If either leadership (political/military) really wanted, GTRE and other research and academic institutes would have got a lot of funding to aid the development. But they prefer looking the other way, for different reasons.

I fail to understand why Kaveri was not the chosen engine for TEDBF. After all, Rafale uses 2xM88 each 50KN/75KN thrust. It is always safer to equip it in a twin-engine fighter to begin with until it is operationally perfected and IAF must have protested against any foreign engine and fought for the desi alternative. Did even a single IAF officer ever said so?

[Rakesh]

I fail to understand why Kaveri was not the chosen engine for TEDBF. After all, Rafale uses 2xM88 each 50KN/75KN thrust. It is always safer to equip it in a twin-engine fighter to begin with until it is operationally perfected and IAF must have protested against any foreign engine and fought for the desi alternative. Did even a single IAF officer ever said so?

TEDBF is not an IAF fighter program. Her air force variant (ORCA) is a pipe dream.

TEDBF has yet to receive funding for a Preliminary Design Review. So we are shooting in the dark.

Rafale M with two M88 turbofans with 50kN dry thrust and 75kN wet thrust
Empty Weight ---> 10,600 kg (23,400 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 24,500 kg (54,013 lb)

TEDBF two GE F414 turbofans with 58.5kN dry thrust and 98kN wet thrust
Empty Weight ---> 14,000 kg (30,865 lb)
Max takeoff weight: 26,000 kg (57,320 lb)

[basant]

I am sorry admiral, missed ORCA. Sincere apologies. But I believe it is better to design a plane around available engine than the other way round. That would be prudent way to go. As far as ORCA is concerned, I guess that the IAF has not responded over two years regarding specs.

[Rakesh]

Saar, why are you saying sorry? No apologies needed.

100% agree with you wrt to designing plane around available engine. GTRE must continue with the Kaveri program and see to its completion for the Tejas Mk1A. For that the GOI and the Babus need to release funds and acquire infrastructure. That is easier said than done. They have no money (millions of $) to acquire flying test beds, but will set aside money (billions of $) for the unobtanium MRFA.

ORCA will not take off, as long as the MRFA contest is alive and kicking. Air HQ will not sanction such a program and who in the Govt will tell Air HQ otherwise? You mentioned in your earlier post that "....countries that produce fighters typically place orders even before IOC is obtained." I hope to see the day when Air HQ will place an order for 200 Tejas Mk2s in one go. It is sad that it will not happen.

[fanne]

Naah, they have designed a plane around an engine (110 lbs afterburner), that does not exist anywhere in the world. If the project does not go anywhere, kaya kare, kahi engine exist hi nahi karta, lets go to another project, rinse and repeat...

[basant]

Precisely! Only we seem to be designing a fighter based on an engine that is not even in development. How did we get here!?

Admiral, no sir please.

The role of Babus unfortunately is vastly exaggerated and despised on the BRF. I have known occasionally ministries themselves getting into financial troubles simply because finance ministry delayed release of funds even after allocation. Babus can delay the release of funds, but to get funds allocated itself one needs a lot of support and lobbying. Budget funds are premium and one needs a strong lobby to get a pie. For defense, it would be the Services who should be actively pursuing the allotment. Without actual support from the Services, there is little hope for GTRE and other entities to get sizable funding as their projects would be considered academic in nature. Same with academics too. To wit, the budget of entire higher education sector for India in 2024 is ~5.5B USD, much less than the combined budget for the top two Chinse universities (~7.5B USD).

The cost of development of engines comparable to Kaveri would be around 1.5B USD. And we hardly spent a quarter of it to build an engine and the necessary expertise, infrastructure and ecosystem from scratch facing all the challenges. That despite the cold shoulder and active snubs from the end users we have such a strong base today in almost all spheres is a tribute to a large number of dedicated workforce and Babus of those departments. In any other country, even Pakistan, Services would be actively supporting products to attract exports. Even J-17s got export orders! OTOH, the travails of Arjun, ATAGS, P-75I, Tejas, NUH, etc speaks volumes of the 'real' problem. If I am not mistaken, India is the only country whose user trails (for Arjun) warranted anti-sabotage measures, has the only navy that operates desi nuclear sub but has not pursued a diesel sub and air force that is not concerned about engine development!

I would like to know ONE example where any Babu secured huge funding for something against the disinterested political leadership and against the wishes of the end users. It doesn't happen. As for the engine, I would like to know why none of IAF 'experts' ask for financial support for engine development? For years, BRF forums ridiculed Chinse for using their unreliable engines. Now that has practically stopped. Heck, Chinese even made a nice movie on this very topic! ('Born to Fly', available on Amazon)

How do we progress if we don't design fighters with our own engines? It's a bridge we have to cross and burn. It's too lame to blame babus, it's even more lame to rationalize old timers at the top echelons of IAF who cannot see good in desi products. In some ironic way, this leadership of Services is reminiscent of Nehruvian thinking. If one can remember how he pleaded for US help when India was attacked by Chinese. Let me quote for those who have not heard of it:

Clinging to the idea that if Russia aids India, it will not supply China, Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru played up the Soviet promise to send MIG jet fighters to the Indian air force. When Britain’s Commonwealth Secretary Duncan Sandys suggested in London that chances of delivery seemed slim, Nehru retorted tartly that he had “authoritative information” that the MIGs would be Delivered.

In any case, Nehru knew roughly what he wanted from the U.S. in military aid. His shopping list had Pentagon eyes popping: a whopping $1 billion worth of weapons and equipment for 1963 alone. India’s entire national budget for fiscal 1963 is less than $3 billion.

Source: India: What War? (Time magazine, Dec 14, 1962)