Indian Army News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[Prem Kumar]

While all these logistical re-arrangements sound good, they are hollow if the Army lacks basic weapons in adequate quantities

Its like rotating the tires, to fix a puncture, to paraphrase Dilbert

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ANI/status/1800577632456864219 ---> The Government has appointed Lieutenant General Upendra Dwivedi, PVSM, AVSM presently serving as Vice Chief of the Army Staff as the next Chief of the Army Staff with effect from the afternoon of 30 June 2024. The present Chief of the Army Staff, General Manoj C Pande, PVSM, AVSM, VSM demits office on 30 June 2024.

[AkshaySG]

Any reason given on why the current chief's tenure was pushed by 30 days?

One could argue about elections but the seniority chain was set there would be no eyebrows raised in Gen Dwivedi became COAS on May 31st

Congratulations to Gen Dwivedi, He may very well be the last Chief to exercise operational control before theatreization kicks in and COAS becomes more of a management/training/doctrine type role

[VinodTK]

^^^^Lt Gen Upendra Dwivedi to be next Army chief

:
:
Born on July 1, 1964, Lt Gen Upendra Dwivedi was commissioned into the Infantry (Jammu & Kashmir Rifles) of the Indian Army on December 15, 1984. His military career, spanning nearly four decades, is marked by a series of distinguished Command, Staff, Instructional, and Foreign appointments. Lt Gen Dwivedi's notable Command roles include leading the 18 Jammu & Kashmir Rifles Regiment, 26 Sector Assam Rifles Brigade, serving as Deputy Inspector General of Assam Rifles (East), and commanding the 9 Corps.
As a Lieutenant General, he held crucial positions such as Director General Infantry and General Officer Commanding in Chief (Headquarter Northern Command) from 2022 to 2024 before his appointment as the Vice Chief of the Army Staff.
:
:

[VinodTK]

If India is going to respond to the attacks on piligrims in J&K; wonder if the change of guard would have any impact to the Indian response when it comes.

[Pratyush]

The change of guard will not have any effect on the nature of the Indian response, if any.

This is a political decision. Post Uri and Pulwama, the SOP should have been established about the Indian response matrix. On that basis the forces should have options ready for the government of India to choose from.

[Prem Kumar]

I don't believe any such "response matrix" exists. All 3 Surgical Strikes were ad-hoc planned, but planned well nevertheless

If we had any such response matrix, we wouldn't have been twiddling thumbs since 2019 & letting our soldiers getting killed in Poonch-Rajouri

Now, China @ LAC will be trotted out as the latest excuse. All talks of us being ready for a 2.5 front war is pure bakwas

Happy to eat my words if Modi responds to Reasi, Doda & Kathua (all in Jammu, mind you, in just 3 days. 10 pilgrims & 1 jawan killed and counting). But increasingly, I despair at this dispensation. We are happy going back to being a COIN-operated Army

[Rakesh]

Post new chief appointment, Army to see multiple changes in senior positions
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 620195358/
20 June 2024

[ashthor]

Army Is Buying American Stryker When It Has Made-In-India Alternatives
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/army-is ... ternatives
24 June 2024

Indian Army’s fascination for imported equipment is once again coming to the fore.

The army, aside from its lip service to atmanirbharta, has rarely shown its confidence in Made-in-India products. The onus is on the government of India to not to give in for army's preference for imported products.

[ramana]

Its not this time.
Stryker is a good match for the combat brigades along LAC.
Tata vehicle will also be procured for plains.

[Pratyush]

Has the Stryker been through the battery is tests that an indigenous equipment is required to undergo?

How do we know that the systems will perform as advertised on the battlefield. As nothing like that exists anywhere in the world.

[hnair]

Ramana, as you may know already, Stryker is full of integration and assembly by the Canadian ecosystem.


Forget the current ruling clown, even their opposition leader seem to bent his spine to access identity vote-banks of rabidly anti-Indian groupings which are funded by ISI and China

Don’t know why we should not treat Canada the same as Turkey at this point? Anything Canadian should be blacklisted at this point by India because they can go the scandie-German route of getting preachy to India at any moment. The only serious item we have procured from them that I can think of is the miniature MAD tail-boom of P-8I, which IIRC was considered by USN for their P8s to be pointless with the newer de-gaussing tech.

[Brad Goodman]

I feel like Unkill is forcing Stryker down our throat as offset for 414 deal, I have not data to back it but just a hunch

[Deans]

I'm writing a blog post on Agnipath (reforming it) and during my research came up with an idea that I want to run by this forum:

The US army has a rank of Warrant officer, which is senior to all enlisted men (senior to the equivalent of Subedar Major) but junior to
an officer. This is different from a warrant officer in the UK (who is the equivalent of a JCO) or the rank in the air force.
A US warrant officer is recruited for a min of 6 years for highly technical tasks (co pilot or maintenance of helicopters, drone operators,
IT work etc) that need technical skills, but not the leadership abilities that officers need to have.

This could be a different type of Agnipath scheme for IA, attracting those who failed to get into IMA or Short service.
Call these recruits JCO (Technical). The work commissioned officer is necessary to attract them.
Open for STEM graduates only.

Work for 6 years - leave as a Subedar (tech) in 6 years. You also get preference if you want to (re) apply as an officer. No pension
and benefits when you leave, barring a severance package.

This will improve the technical knowledge and marginally reduce the average age of PBOR's in arms like Engineers, EME, Artillery etc,
reduce the shortage of officers and give a future career option to Agniveers who want to reenlist after a college degree
(for which they get credits during their Agnipath service) or improve the quality of intake for short service officers.

[Pratyush]

Deans,

Not a HR guy. But I can see a merit to your idea in order to improve and retain the skill based of a competent individual.

But most of the states highlighting this issue are deficient in producing individuals with precisely such skills through the respective education systems.

Where such skills are available, those individuals are recruited by pvt. sector industry.

[Deans]

Many STEM grads are actually unemployable for the pvt sector, maybe they come from small towns, or lack of English a problem.
Their employability will go up after a stint in the army.
There might be a lot of women STEM grads who would be open to serving for a short time, without facing the challenges that lady officers
have when they are part of combat units and do not want to command a group of men.

[Prem Kumar]

I feel like Unkill is forcing Stryker down our throat as offset for 414 deal, I have not data to back it but just a hunch

Stryker is small fry. I would bet on the import fetish of the IA. The US, of course, is happy to sell

[ernest]

...

The US army has a rank of Warrant officer, which is senior to all enlisted men (senior to the equivalent of Subedar Major) but junior to
an officer. This is different from a warrant officer in the UK (who is the equivalent of a JCO) or the rank in the air force.
A US warrant officer is recruited for a min of 6 years for highly technical tasks (co pilot or maintenance of helicopters, drone operators,
IT work etc) that need technical skills, but not the leadership abilities that officers need to have.

...

Much needed, especially when tech and skills required are cycling at a very high rate. Also, India now has a rich private sector that can absorb such talent.

Also, there are a number of STEM graduates, who majored in fields where there is lower labor demand than supply. These individuals still possess transferable tech skills than can be easily leveraged. Right now, many of these line up for IT jobs, and with the sector slowing down on the service side, armed forces would find a good pool to recruit from

[Deans]

I feel like Unkill is forcing Stryker down our throat as offset for 414 deal, I have not data to back it but just a hunch

Stryker is small fry. I would bet on the import fetish of the IA. The US, of course, is happy to sell

A lot of Stryker's components are made in Canada. I think this is a huge risk. Justinder can turn off supplies, if Khalistanis complain.

[Deans]

My analysis of the Agnipath scheme and what can be done to salvage it

https://rpdeans.blogspot.com/2024/06/ag ... rward.html

[wig]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/fi ... e065&ei=33

Five tank-bound Army soldiers swept away while crossing river in Ladakh

extracts

LEH: Five soldiers of the Army are feared drowned after they were swept away while crossing a river in a T-72 tank near the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in the Nyoma-Chushul area in Ladakh early Saturday, officials said.

They said the incident occurred near Mandir Morh, 148 kilometres from here, during an exercise around 1 am.

The T-72 tank with five soldiers on board sank due to flash floods while they were crossing the river, the officials said.

[venkat_kv]

I'm writing a blog post on Agnipath (reforming it) and during my research came up with an idea that I want to run by this forum:

The US army has a rank of Warrant officer, which is senior to all enlisted men (senior to the equivalent of Subedar Major) but junior to
an officer. This is different from a warrant officer in the UK (who is the equivalent of a JCO) or the rank in the air force.
A US warrant officer is recruited for a min of 6 years for highly technical tasks (co pilot or maintenance of helicopters, drone operators,
IT work etc) that need technical skills, but not the leadership abilities that officers need to have.

This could be a different type of Agnipath scheme for IA, attracting those who failed to get into IMA or Short service.
Call these recruits JCO (Technical). The work commissioned officer is necessary to attract them.
Open for STEM graduates only.

Work for 6 years - leave as a Subedar (tech) in 6 years. You also get preference if you want to (re) apply as an officer. No pension
and benefits when you leave, barring a severance package.

This will improve the technical knowledge and marginally reduce the average age of PBOR's in arms like Engineers, EME, Artillery etc,
reduce the shortage of officers and give a future career option to Agniveers who want to reenlist after a college degree
(for which they get credits during their Agnipath service) or improve the quality of intake for short service officers.

Dean Saar,
while the idea is good, it has an issue. the issue being a govt job and the perks of it for supposed life choices and partners that come in for the candidates. The other problem is the non payment of pension after they are done for 6 years and is one of the sticking points in the opposition to the agnipath scheme. These are the couple of major sticking points that i think are there - the correct setup where after joining the defense forces the candidate has a job for life uptill 60 years untill the individual decides to take vrs.

while you have tried to address the technical aspects of the gap in agniveer the issue for the opposition still remains i think.

[nandakumar]

Venkat_kv
No armed forces personnel even an officer from the NDA gets to serve till retirement age. If you don't make it to the next rank within a stipulated time. This is what I understand. Three members of my family served in the armed forces. The position I stated as above is what each one of them experience.

[venkat_kv]

Saar,
i am talking about the normal aspirants who have participated in the opposition to the scheme -real or pushed by the coaching centers, but govt job allure and pension was a big issue as was reported then. The govt also wanted a short tenure so as to save on the pensions going forward along with keeping the army young and fighting fit. so the actual reason for attacking the scheme remains in place.

[nandakumar]

Some more background on OROP. The elite Civil service (I am not sure about others but definitely for IAS) enjoyed a similar benefit. Many decades ago, a Cabinet Secretary has quietly pushed through the idea of revision of basic salary component of pension to the basic salary that a serving officer of his rank would be drawing today! Of course no Civil Servant of the time in Finance Ministry put in a dissenting note!! Today the situation is such that the spouse of a Secretary rank person was drawing a family is pension of Rs 90,000 and that was about 10 years ago. A very specious logic was pushed through increase the retirement age from 58 to 60. The reasoning was that it would save the government some money money staff salaries and pensions expenditure. Some eminent journalists too favorably wrote on those lines. An increase in retirement age taking the argument to its logical conclusion an increase in retirement age from 60 to 65 would reduce government expenditure even further and 65 to 70 and so on. The Vajpayee government increased it in the fond hope that it would secure the cooperation of civil servants. The hike in Civil servant's retirement age was analogous to service conditions of ICS officers would be governed by ICS rules framed by the imperial government. This was put in in the Transfer of Power document signed by Jawarlal Nehru. An anamolous situation arose so much so if the popular government of the day wanted to dismiss an ICS Officer it would have to seek the approval of the British Government! This dilemma was in full force at the height of TTK controversy over LIC's investments in Mundhra controlled companies. The LIC contended that whatever investments it did was on the instructions of Finance Ministry. While TTK's contention was thatt he knew nothing about it. But the Finance Secretary said that it was done under the instructions of TTK. TTK no doubt resigned. But what of the Secretary? As per the Transfer of Power document the conduct of an ICS Officer can only be decided by a committee consisting of his peers. The Committee's report was categorical. It said, 'we believe the Finance Secretary'. The Finance Secretary resigned since he had been exonerated. He came back to the Government as Finance Minister in 1977. He was HM Patel.

[Deans]

Saar,
i am talking about the normal aspirants who have participated in the opposition to the scheme -real or pushed by the coaching centers, but govt job allure and pension was a big issue as was reported then. The govt also wanted a short tenure so as to save on the pensions going forward along with keeping the army young and fighting fit. so the actual reason for attacking the scheme remains in place.

Venkat ji, you are right in shorter service age without pension being a huge negative. My point in proposing shorter service for `Technical JCOs' is that someone with an engineering degree will get a job after 6 years in the army, compared to a 10th pass jawan. IT industry will happily hire a graduate
who they know is disciplined enough to work irregular hours without supervision.

[chetak]

[venkat_kv]

Saar,
i am talking about the normal aspirants who have participated in the opposition to the scheme -real or pushed by the coaching centers, but govt job allure and pension was a big issue as was reported then. The govt also wanted a short tenure so as to save on the pensions going forward along with keeping the army young and fighting fit. so the actual reason for attacking the scheme remains in place.

Venkat ji, you are right in shorter service age without pension being a huge negative. My point in proposing shorter service for `Technical JCOs' is that someone with an engineering degree will get a job after 6 years in the army, compared to a 10th pass jawan. IT industry will happily hire a graduate
who they know is disciplined enough to work irregular hours without supervision.

Deans Saar,

First of all no ji for me, I insist (i am younger than you in age and experience).

Second, thanks for taking the time to write the article on Agniveer scheme and hopefully the powers that be make a wise choice considering all round effect of the scheme.
One more point for you to consider when you write about the scheme is that it is relatively easier to get soldiers than a technical officer/JCO. like for example, it takes a lot more time for an airforce pilot or say EME or technical side of the army (artillery, armoured vehicles) to master their craft and 6 years is kind of short. What if Agniveer was proposed for soldiers/infantry more then technical folks then maybe it makes sense as it takes a lot more to build a technical competent army.

maybe this is also tried but as the Agniveer are coming to the end of their tenure, people could be asked if they like to leave voluntarily (for folks who think they would like to leave after their 5-6 year service and then the trimming out process starts).

as an anecdote, i am always moved by the scene in the movie Border where Sunny Deol asks his experienced JCO (i think it was Kulbhusan Kharbanda) who responds about the Pakistanis using multiple guns for firing artillery and his reasoning stands that a gun takes some x sec but the firing was going on in x-t sec intervals, so Pakistanis are using multiple guns to fire at the same time and Sunny deol tells the other young men in the army "ise kehte hain tajurba" (folks this what is called experience).

Certainly can't miss the wise men for having a fighting fit army of just youngsters.

[morem]

nitpick - it was the movie Lakshya , but an excellent point nonetheless

[Deans]

Deans Saar,
First of all no ji for me, I insist ( i am younger than you in age and experience).
Second, thanks for taking the time to write the article on angiveer scheme and hopefully the powers that be make a wise choice considering all round effect of the scheme.
One more point for you to consider when you write about the scheme is that it is relatively easier to get soldiers than a technical officer/JCO. like for example, it takes a lot more time for an airforce pilot or say eme or technical side of the army (artillary, armoroured vehicles) to master their craft and 6 years is kind of short. What if Agniveer was proposed for soldiers/infantry more then technical folks then maybe it makes sense as it takes a lot more to build a technical competent army.

maybe this is also tried but as the agniveers are coming to the end of their tenure, people could be asked if they like to leave voluntarily (for folks who think they would like to leave after their 5-6 year service and then the trimming out process starts).

as an anecdote, i am always moved by the scene in the movie Border where Sunny Deol asks his experienced JCO (i think it was kulbhusan kharbanda) who responds about the pakistanis using multiple guns for firing artillary and his reasoning stands that a gun takes some x sec but the firing was going on in x-t sec intervals, so pakistanis are using mutiple guns to fire at the same time and Sunny deol tells the other young men in the army "ise kehte hain tajurba" ( folks this what is called experience).

Certainly can't miss the wise men for having a fighting fit army of just younsters.

What I have in mind when considering a `Technical JCO position' is roles like the following:
- Drone operator (you need a graduate who can play video games, Ukraine & Russia have trained thousands of them in months).
This job will be done by officers, if we don't have this position and we are short of officers.
- Roles in supplies and logistics (Ordnance, ASC) that need basic computer and math skills
- Basic engineering tasks that would currently be done by a Lt. or Capt because they require college level technical skills.
- Cyber warfare & Intel (new fields where we do not have trained manpower at the officer level).

[Pratyush]

A few months ago there was a post on an ATGM tractor. That gave me the idea of having mine plough being attached to the front of a tractor and the tractor being operated in an autonomous mode.

It seems, that the Indian army took the idea and went to work on it.

https://idrw.org/southern-command-innov ... -solution/

Published on 14th July 2024.

The southern command has improvised a tractor mine clearing roller.

It's an extremely low tech solution for de-mining operations.

The only thing that it lacks is the ability to conduct remote or autonomous operations to clear a path.

[VinodTK]

From Hindustan Times

Around one lakh Agniveers enrolled by army till now, says top officer

"Approximately 70% of these Agniveers are already with their units and doing extremely well," said Lieutenant General CB Ponnappa, the army's Adjutant General.

Amid claims and counter-claims regarding the contentious Agnipath policy for recruitment to the Indian armed forces, a top officer of the Indian Army said on Sunday that as many as one lakh Agniveers have joined the force till now, of whom 70% are serving in various units.

“In June 2022, the scheme was launched and then we had the first batch that was recruited and enrolled, in December 2022-January 2023. Approximately, one lakh Agniveers have been enrolled in the army, of whom around 200 are women. Of them, approximately 70,000 recruits have already been dispatched to their units and are performing extremely well in the battalions. This includes around 100 female police personnel too,” Lieutenant General Channira Bansi Ponnappa, the army's Adjutant General, told news agency ANI.

Lieutenant General Ponnappa also shared that 50,000 vacancies have been released for the current 2024-25 cycle, adding that the recruitment process for the year is ongoing.

Further, the senior officer dismissed the oft-repeated charge by opposition parties that with Agnipath, the central government has created ‘two different classes’ of soldiers.

[Prem Kumar]

Do we know how many Muslims have joined as Agniveers?

Hope the GoI is keeping this in check

[VinodTK]

Army On Front Foot On Agnipath: Adjutant General Tears Down Criticisms, From Job Security To Compensation

[SSridhar]

Gen. Padmanabhan is no more.
Om shanti and pray for sadghathi.

[Rakesh]

Gen. Padmanabhan is no more.
Om shanti and pray for sadghathi.

https://x.com/adgpi/status/1825411286236311593 ---> We are deeply saddened by the passing away of General Sundararajan Padmanabhan. General Upendra Dwivedi, COAS and all ranks of the Indian Army, extend heartfelt condolences to his family and loved ones. A visionary leader and accomplished soldier, General Padmanabhan served as COAS from October 2000 to December 2002, successfully leading the Indian Army during Operation Parakram. With over 40 years of dedicated service, he also held the position of Chairman of the Chiefs of Staff Committee. Post-retirement, he contributed to society through his literary pursuits and insightful talks on strategic issues, authoring three books that reflect his profound knowledge. The Nation and #IndianArmy will forever cherish his invaluable contributions.

[wig]

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/India/ge ... fc2b&ei=16

Gen Paddy: The soldier who taught Pakistani jihadists a lesson in Kashmir
a tribute

It was the peak of Covid-19 pandemic and then Chief Defence Staff (CDS) Gen Bipin Rawat got to know that former Army Chief General S Padmanabhan was having a tough time handling the disease in his two bedroom apartment in Chennai. Gen Rawat sent a message to his former Chief that he could arrange a transfer to R & R hospital in New Delhi for his proper treatment. But the soldier Gen Paddy, as he was fondly called, declined the offer from another gem of the Indian Army. Gen Padmanabhan passed into military history on August 18 in Chennai.

Cut to 1996 winter when Gen Paddy was the Northern Army Commander that the then Defence Minister Mulayam Singh Yadav decided to pay a visit to Siachen Glacier with his entourage. Mulayam Singh and his entourage decided to make an aerial survey of the Glacier upto Kumar Post amidst nice sunny weather. Clearly, the Pakistanis did not like the idea of the Indian Defence Minister and his military commanders surveying the glacier and as soon as Yadav touched down at the Base camp helipad, the enemy opened fire with artillery shells on the Indian positions in the glacier. Given that the Pakistanis are sitting on the other side of the Saltoro Ridge, the artillery shells were taking a parabola trajectory and landing near the posts on the glacier. Without telling anyone, General Paddy called the Siachen Brigade commander and within a few minutes all the 155 mm and 130 mm batteries erupted from the base camp as Indian riposte to Pakistani perfidy began. Gen Paddy believed in giving it back to India’s enemies.

Even as a 15 Corps Commander at Badami Bagh cantonment and as DG Military Intelligence, it was Gen Paddy who raised the counter-insurgents like Kuka Parrey to tackle the Pakistani jihadists during the early 1990s. This was the time when the Indian media was more sympathetic towards the jihadists and their Hurriyat leaders and was virtually towing the western line of Kashmir. But Gen Paddy had no time for the media and knew how to fight the terrorists and beat (or kill) them at their own game in Jammu and Kashmir. It was a treat to discuss Kashmir terrorism with Gen Paddy over smokes and drinks as the General despite being from artillery (considered less than armored and infantry at that time) knew his enemy and his men. He always believed in calling spade a spade and could be brutal to adversaries.
He took over as Indian Army Chief on October 1, 2000 and retired on December 31,2002. It was during his tenure that India faced the worst terror attacks from Pakistan ruled by dictator Gen Pervez Musharraf. The J & K Assembly attack in 2001, the Parliament attack, the Kaluchak massacre and the unprecedented mobilization of Indian armed forces under Operation Parakram. Gen Paddy was ready to take on the enemy from the word go but the Vajpayee government at that time decided to let coercive diplomacy win. Gen Paddy simply was never afraid.

[Aditya_V]

One of least appreciated Operations is Operation Parakram- Pakis talk about Kargil but never about Operation Parakram which far more bloody, Pakistan stopped Artillery duels after it.

A mysterious fire happened at a Train Station in Godhra Gujarat when this operation was at its peak and Paki Army was bleeding.

All credit to Gen Padmanabhan

[A Sharma]

Army’s counter-terror operations to get new teeth with ‘Xploder’, ‘Agniastra’

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1838485665639731517 ---> The Indian Army has recently upgraded its Strela-10M inventory and will soon conduct tests to evaluate the results of its life extension exercise. Exciting advancements considering usage against modern drones.