Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

[Kartik]

Shambles all round, Starting from the 15 step 5 year process to get anything approved.

15 years to upgrade 5-6 squadrons of a machine we have been producing with supposed "ToT" for the last two decades and a half

Super Sukhoi plans have been around for the last decade so to think another 7 years for R&D & Testing is quite ridiculous imo

And even once that is done I can't see why it will take them another 8 years for 84 upgrades.. Our competition churns out 30-40 of new Jets a year and we can't even upgrade one squadron per year?

Oh man, 15years for implementing a 84 aircraft upgrade ...

Betw isn't this upgrade only strictly limited to avionics - i.e. no structural changes like Fin/Wings/Canard/V Stabiliser/LG Bay doors etc replacement by Carbon Fiber Composites, no FBW (on offer from the OEM) introduction, no new Engine (AL-41F on offer by OEM) etc - pure avionics upgrade, and maybe some structural life extension aspects (not sure).

Then why on earth will it take 7 years for R&D and Certification, followed by 8 years to implement the upgrades to 84 airframe (so @7-8airframes/year).

Call me stupid, but is there some sort of unitary method at work here - I mean 50 M2K Upgrade took 10+ years (2011 - 2021 planned, but actually 2023/2024), so a 84 Su-30 will take 15years!!
What exactly is the point in upgrading 30% of the fleet, over 15 years, by which time the remaining 70% would be up for retirement?

Must be something in it, that has not been publicly revealed yet.

I'm 100% certain that structural life extension is a part of this upgrade. NAL/HAL has for sure looked at doing fatigue testing of the Su-30MKI to understand what components need to be replaced or strengthened to extend the service life. Given the workhorse nature of the fleet and how long the IAF wants to keep it in service, it is inevitable that a SLEP is going to be looked at in detail.

Trust me, we don't know the full extent of this upgrade program. DDM typically can't understand half the details and doesn't have the technical acumen to probe any further either.

[ashthor]

Don't they have 12 aircraft per year line for mki. They will be using the same line.

[maitya]

Oh man, 15years for implementing a 84 aircraft upgrade ...

Betw isn't this upgrade only strictly limited to avionics - i.e. no structural changes like Fin/Wings/Canard/V Stabiliser/LG Bay doors etc replacement by Carbon Fiber Composites, no FBW (on offer from the OEM) introduction, no new Engine (AL-41F on offer by OEM) etc - pure avionics upgrade, and maybe some structural life extension aspects (not sure).

Then why on earth will it take 7 years for R&D and Certification, followed by 8 years to implement the upgrades to 84 airframe (so @7-8airframes/year).

Call me stupid, but is there some sort of unitary method at work here - I mean 50 M2K Upgrade took 10+ years (2011 - 2021 planned, but actually 2023/2024), so a 84 Su-30 will take 15years!!
What exactly is the point in upgrading 30% of the fleet, over 15 years, by which time the remaining 70% would be up for retirement?

Must be something in it, that has not been publicly revealed yet.

I'm 100% certain that structural life extension is a part of this upgrade. NAL/HAL has for sure looked at doing fatigue testing of the Su-30MKI to understand what components need to be replaced or strengthened to extend the service life. Given the workhorse nature of the fleet and how long the IAF wants to keep it in service, it is inevitable that a SLEP is going to be looked at in detail.

Trust me, we don't know the full extent of this upgrade program. DDM typically can't understand half the details and doesn't have the technical acumen to probe any further either.

These two reports does mention about SLEP - but one suggesting 15years and another 20years:
1. IAF upgradation plan aims to operate Su-30MKI fleet till mid-2050s
2. IAF to extend life of Russian Su-30MKI fighter jet fleet by more than 20 years

But still 15years is just too long for an upgrade program, even including SLEP ...

[chetak]

[Kartik]

I'm 100% certain that structural life extension is a part of this upgrade. NAL/HAL has for sure looked at doing fatigue testing of the Su-30MKI to understand what components need to be replaced or strengthened to extend the service life. Given the workhorse nature of the fleet and how long the IAF wants to keep it in service, it is inevitable that a SLEP is going to be looked at in detail.

Trust me, we don't know the full extent of this upgrade program. DDM typically can't understand half the details and doesn't have the technical acumen to probe any further either.

These two reports does mention about SLEP - but one suggesting 15years and another 20years:
1. IAF upgradation plan aims to operate Su-30MKI fleet till mid-2050s
2. IAF to extend life of Russian Su-30MKI fighter jet fleet by more than 20 years

But still 15years is just too long for an upgrade program, even including SLEP ...

I would wait for a more detailed and accurate report on this upgrade, perhaps from someone like Angad Singh or Shiv Aroor. Most of the rest just parrot whatever's told to them without going into any real details due to their lack of understanding on the subject matter.

[sanman]

[Aditya_V]

Any truth to this, says Su 30MKI spec sheet in exercise pitch black mentions Astra mk2 and Nirbhay missiles are carried by Su 30Mki or is this a hoax

https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status ... 68389005

[fanne]

For missiles I know for sure that you never know officially when inducted. When you hear about it, it may have been operational for many years

[Rakesh]

Any truth to this, says Su 30MKI spec sheet in exercise pitch black mentions Astra mk2 and Nirbhay missiles are carried by Su 30Mki or is this a hoax

https://x.com/officialTatya_1/status ... 68389005

That could be an IAF placard or it could be the Aussies creating it for Pitch Black, based on what the Rambha pilots have told the Aussies.

If that is was the placard is stating, then it is true

[Rakesh]

Incorrect title heading. It is 230 engines and *NOT* 230 aircraft. DDM at work!

Over 230 Sukhoi-30MKI Aircraft Waiting For Overhauling At HAL Odisha - What's Behind The Delay?
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/over ... -112247059
03 Aug 2024

It is the war, at least, to begin with. Over 230 engines of the Indian Air Force's frontline fighter aircraft, the Sukhoi-30MKI, are waiting at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) facility in Koraput, Odisha, for overhauling for months. Now, it appears that the metallurgical inputs needed for overhauling (both raw materials and processed stuff like super alloys) are on their way from Russia. Senior government officials said the war between Russia and Ukraine, now on for over two years, is partly responsible for the delay but the overhauling process is likely to begin shortly. HAL is responsible for the overhauling, done in India. The Sukhoi-30 is the IAF's mainstay, its 250+ aircraft make up about 15 squadrons of the IAF, which currently have about 31 squadrons, starkly less than the official strength of 40 squadrons.

There have been efforts in recent times (the Sukhoi-30 came to the IAF in the late-Nineties, nearly 30 years ago) towards indigenisation and both government private sector organisations have been involved in finding locally-made alternatives, but even here, sources said, "there have been supply chain difficulties." There are private sector organisations, including one in Lucknow, that have taken successful initiatives, but it is also a question of sufficient orders. The engine overhaul issue has been serious enough for the government to have taken it up at a diplomatic level. A senior official said that this has to be "sorted out."

The Tejas Mark 1A, originally scheduled for delivery in February this year, is likely to be handed over to the IAF by September. Senior officials said efforts are being made to ensure that the first plane (indigenously designed and developed and initially called the Light Combat Aircraft) is delivered by late this month, but it could go to September. There are software issues that needed final testing and also, "ordnance delivery tests," before handing over. The IAF has ordered 73 of them and they are likely to be delivered in nine years. Senior officials added that once the first one is handed over, the others will follow with less difficulty. Current production capacity is officially about 16 Tejas 1A aircraft a year and there is hope that the six-month delay in delivering the first one will be made up in the future.

[Rakesh]

Incorrect title heading. It is 230 engines and *NOT* 230 aircraft. DDM at work!

Over 230 Sukhoi-30MKI Aircraft Waiting For Overhauling At HAL Odisha - What's Behind The Delay?
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/over ... -112247059
03 Aug 2024

It is the war, at least, to begin with. Over 230 engines of the Indian Air Force's frontline fighter aircraft, the Sukhoi-30MKI, are waiting at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) facility in Koraput, Odisha, for overhauling for months. Now, it appears that the metallurgical inputs needed for overhauling (both raw materials and processed stuff like super alloys) are on their way from Russia.

After reading the bolded part above, now read the below.

Anantha is spot on ---> HAL is wasting tax payers money. What a bunch of jokers.

Any wonder why Air HQ views HAL with such disdain and contempt?

HAL hands over Sukhoi engine to IAF
https://www.governancenow.com/news/psu/ ... ne-to-iaf-
25 October 2017

“The AL31FP engine powers Su-30MKI and is manufactured from raw material stage. All the components, including heavy forgings are manufactured at HAL,” said HAL CMD T Suvarna Raju.

[Pratyush]

How can people state outright lies and not face consequences for it?

[Rakesh]

How can people state outright lies and not face consequences for it?

Consequence is an alien word in India's DPSUs.

"Government is not the solution to our problem, government is the problem."
- President Ronald Reagan, 20 January 1981

[fanne]

...

I am trying to understand the context. What/who Anantha said? AlSo does HAL manufacture from raw material stage or not? It is conceivable, we learned the basic Single crystal tech and maybe bettered it (better part per Maitya ji)

[Rakesh]

I am trying to understand the context. What/who Anantha said?

Do you not know who Anantha Krishnan is?

* Twitter Account --> https://x.com/writetake

* YouTube Account ---> https://www.youtube.com/@TarmakMediaHouse-TMH

* Tarmak Blog ---> http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/

Below is the tweet I am referring to...

https://x.com/writetake/status/1817808633121710396 ---> Sources claim that both @DRDO_India and @HALHQBLR have issued strict instructions to their top management not to share anything with the Media, irrespective of who the info-seeker is. If this is true, then it is an insult to the media! Which level-headed journalist will seek info from DRDO & HAL -- 2 top-notch organizations wasting tax-payers' money. And, what is there to seek? What did RRM eat during the recent visit to HAL? Or what was the gsm of the paper used in DRDO's latest Technology Foucs mag? Phew! Doctors have warned me not to laugh, because it will strain my troubled neck. I am in a fix, folks! Stay tuned for #GodSaveHAL Part-3 going live today.

Also does HAL manufacture from raw material stage or not? It is conceivable, we learned the basic Single crystal tech and maybe bettered it (better part per Maitya ji)

After reading the above article, do you believe what HAL says?

They don't manufacture anything of value from raw material stage. After 20+ years of Su-30MKI assembly and claiming what is now known to be not true, these geniuses are waiting from raw materials to come from Russia. So much for ToT from Su-30MKI!

[pravula]

AFAIK, it’s part of MKI contract that raw materials and some alloys needs to be from RU

[maitya]

AFAIK, it’s part of MKI contract that raw materials and some alloys needs to be from RU

That's correct ... Russia never wanted to let go the "raw material" aspects of the manufacturing, for platform (airframe), subsystems and the engine
(AL-31F) as well.

Speaking about AL-31F, just as an example, pls note GTRE/DMRL/MIDHANI et all proved many many components/LRUs of better (or atleast same/similar) performance levels when manufactured from indigenously sourced "raw materials", for more than decade+ back now.
In fact, there are some very basic components which have a dependency on Ti sourced from Russia, which could have been manufactured from indigenously sourced Ti, right from day one (so 2.5 decades now).

One example is, the SC HPT/LPT blades (and discs) - they have been "mass manufactured" (read casted) in Koraput for 1.5+ decades now - but the superalloy ingots, the cast seed etc needs to be imported from Russia.
Now a SC (most probably 2nd gen) casted HPT capable of 1370deg C TeT is no great shakes when DS casted HPT capability of 1455deg C exists in-country for close 2+ decades now (Kaveri program) - plus when we have got 4th gen SC (DMS4) capability for more than a decade now.

Same/similar story for other major components and LRUs like HPC/LPC/Fan etc etc ...

But then people will still Tom-Tom about "100% ToT" or "100% indigenous manufacturing" capability etc - you can refer to many many press reports claiming exactly that for decades now.

[venkat_kv]

…..

Rakesh Saar,

The HAL press release is classic govt babugiri speak. I will ask forum members to refer to older Tsarkars posts. he also gave an example that if in a press release DRDO or any other PSU claims say that they successfully tested a missile most common folks assume that the missile is a success and then start talking about when to induct and what numbers they induct it in. But the press release only talks about "successfully testing the missile" ( which in this case would refer to carrying out the procedures to test a missile. It doesn't explicitly speak about missile doing what the forces needs. Just like a student successfully giving an exam which mean he went to the exam hall and wrote the test that doesn't mean all of his answers are correct.

HAL is contracted to buy raw materials from russia for it SU-30MKI manufacture and also manufacturing from raw materials could mean screw- drivergiri of certain ready made materials from russia, also classified as raw materials. Whether we are willing to break defense agreements to put in our own parts substituted has many repercussions especially when we are still importing the titanium raw materials which are being shaved and forged using the titanium presses for this program.

[rrao]

…..

TARMAK Ananatha Krishnan was once employed by HAL as Chief of Media, during Mr.Baweja tenure. He ran a very successful magazine Minsk Square Matters (MSM) for covering and connecting various divisions of HAL and an internal magazine e-connect (???) that covered tech developments. He created a kind of revolution in connecting various divisions of HAL. Unfortunately, he lost his tenure once the new chairman came. It’s a kind of grapes turning sour for him. Russia gave total TOT, but didn't give actual processes. HAL koraput has all the facilities for making AL-31FP engines including an ARGON-based welding chamber. Since engine is material-oriented, every raw material had to come from Russia. I think it lacked the quality and performance reliability of UAC made engines. Therefore IAF bought 1,000 engines directly from UAC, if i am not wrong. All HAL chairman tenures are short lived, nobody had time to look seriously into indigenization due to other pressing programs of LCA, ALH, IJT at that time. i don’t know how much Atmanirbharata has helped AL-31FP now.

[Kailash]

New engines from raw material stage

[nash]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

https://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/i ... 542881.cms


21K crore ~ $2.5 billion dollar for 230 engine.
Unit cost ~ $5-10 million

May be the new engine , Al-51?

[SRajesh]

What is the meaning of new engine from raw materials??
Or this a new term for 'Screwdrivergiri'
Just checking onlee!

[Pratyush]

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... s?from=mdr

https://navbharattimes.indiatimes.com/i ... 542881.cms


21K crore ~ $2.5 billion dollar for 230 engine.
Unit cost ~ $5-10 million

May be the new engine , Al-51?

No.

It's only for the AL 31 FP.

[fanne]

But something does not add up. 230 engines for 21000 carores? Some $2.5 billions? I.e per engine more than 10 million? Something is off, either engine numbers are not correct (maybe 950 engines) or maybe al41 or maybe a better tot or …?

[pravula]

If from “raw materials”, then we may be buying out the ip to upgrade them inhouse.

[nash]

But something does not add up. 230 engines for 21000 carores? Some $2.5 billions? I.e per engine more than 10 million? Something is off, either engine numbers are not correct (maybe 950 engines) or maybe al41 or maybe a better tot or …?

Exactly, it is not so straight forward Al-31FP.

10 million / engine is too much for Al-31 series, It may be spare parts or some thing exclusive or number of engine or new engine.

[Kailash]

It is a twin engine jet. My supposition is 230*2*2(replacements over lifetime), could be to the upwards of 900+ engines. If that's not the case we'll probably be getting the IPR, paying a one time royalty on future production as well..

[Pratyush]

^^^

Maybe we are looking at a bribe of 200 %for the contract.

[sanman]

[sanman]

[Karan M]

…..

Rakesh Saar,

The HAL press release is classic govt babugiri speak. I will ask forum members to refer to older Tsarkars posts. he also gave an example that if in a press release DRDO or any other PSU claims say that they successfully tested a missile most common folks assume that the missile is a success and then start talking about when to induct and what numbers they induct it in. But the press release only talks about "successfully testing the missile" ( which in this case would refer to carrying out the procedures to test a missile. It doesn't explicitly speak about missile doing what the forces needs. Just like a student successfully giving an exam which mean he went to the exam hall and wrote the test that doesn't mean all of his answers are correct.

HAL is contracted to buy raw materials from russia for it SU-30MKI manufacture and also manufacturing from raw materials could mean screw- drivergiri of certain ready made materials from russia, also classified as raw materials. Whether we are willing to break defense agreements to put in our own parts substituted has many repercussions especially when we are still importing the titanium raw materials which are being shaved and forged using the titanium presses for this program.

Please stop quoting that utter fraud tsarkar as an authority on any mil topic whatsoever.

As the admins are well aware & hadn't made it public at the time, this chap was a liar and was hoodwinking the general public here by assuming the identity of a Naval officer.

In reality he was a software sales chap with a relation in the IN, and managed to convince many gullible folks here of his embellished antecedents. Time and again, he made absolutely stupid and sensational claims and then used all sorts of "inside information" type claims to push his statements through, and would get abusive when countered.

It is to Rakesh's credit he saw through the entire game & banned him after an admin investigation revealed the reality. But to this date some forum members keep raising this and attacking Rakesh for taking what was a necessary and forthright decision.

In fact tsarkars entire record on the forum was one of fibs and then screaming at people when countered or when found out. Sadly far too many people fell for his shtick.

No further discussion on this will be entertained but at least now, be aware of the fellows antecedents and stop quoting him as any gospel on the topic.


Second, there is no babu speak whatsoever in missile testing etc.

The reality is any test from DRDO with any services involvement needs to be vetted by them before a press release is issued. Also, any DRDO internal trial that is made public has details available to the MOD. The current GOI has strict instructions to the DRDO/DPSU establishment to not publicise their achievements or trials. Even so, then ones they are cleared to notify are very clear about mission objectives and what was achieved in the trial.

[Rakesh]

Thanks KaranM. The length some people will go to for fame and name. Talk about Stolen Valour!

I remember the Tsarkar episode.

Please read KaranM's post above.

[venkat_kv]

....

Wasn't aware of this untill you have posted it Karan M saar and Rakesh Saar, although i have seen the back and forth arguments at that time in lurker mode, will refrain from quoting the said posters post.

[maitya]

...
...

Good to see Karan M posting again ... it's been a while ...

[Rakesh]

Aatmanirbharta in defence: MoD signs Rs 26,000 crore contract with HAL for 240 AL-31FP Aero Engines for Su-30MKI aircraft
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2053088
09 Sept 2024

https://x.com/SpokespersonMoD/status/18 ... 0005772446 ---> In a boost to #Aatmanirbhar Bharat Ministry of Defence today signed contract with @HALHQBLR for 240 AL-31FP Aero Engines for Su-30MKI aircraft worth over ₹26,000 crore. Indigenous content to increase up to 63% over 8-year delivery.

[SRajesh]

^^Rakesh
As Fanneji mentioned what is being paid for??
26000crores for 240 engines
Is this 190 HEU tech included???

[Rakesh]

I have lost touch with the Indian numerical system. What is the conversion of Rs 26,000 crore into USD?

[maitya]

I have lost touch with the Indian numerical system. What is the conversion of Rs 26,000 crore into USD?

INR26,000Cr for 240 engines == ~$13m/engine ...
Why oh why do we have to pay such an obscene amount, especially so, when we are haggling for an ask of around ~$10m/F414-INS6 engine (part of the ToAsT deal). More so, when F414 is at least 1.5 generations ahead of AL-31FP ...

[Karan M]

...
...

Good to see Karan M posting again ... it's been a while ...

Thanks Maitya, hope you are doing well too.

[Mort Walker]

I have lost touch with the Indian numerical system. What is the conversion of Rs 26,000 crore into USD?

INR26,000Cr for 240 engines == ~$13m/engine ...
Why oh why do we have to pay such an obscene amount, especially so, when we are haggling for an ask of around ~$10m/F414-INS6 engine (part of the ToAsT deal). More so, when F414 is at least 1.5 generations ahead of AL-31FP ...

Last I knew, the Su-30MKI won’t work with the F414.