Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

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Manish_P
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 26 Aug 2024 18:40
Manish_P wrote: 26 Aug 2024 09:33 An Air Force analogy (somewhat) would be why the IAF avoided going for heavy bombers like the Backfires and Blackjacks and instead remained content with Su-30MKIs.
Bingo! You get it. Thank You.
Admiral sir, I accept it for two simple reasons

- the bombers would be more vulnerable as they are more easy to detect and easier to hit than the smaller, highly agile fighters
- we got enough (270+) of the smaller fighters to offset the need for a squadron of the large bombers

Anyway like i said in my previous post, i agree with your points about our constraints (Doctrine, budget,....). So am stopping here. Will resume going back to hoping of development of disruptive tech like a bunch of unmanned, stealthy, CM missile-carrying subs lurking close off the chinese ports giving them pause to think...

:)
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by sanman »

Pratyush wrote: 26 Aug 2024 11:31 The ability to keep the flow of energy supplies and industrial raw materials is of vital importance for the future of Indian economic growth.

We can dismiss it as crawling before walking. But if India cannot keep it's energy supplies flowing, even if we succeed in defending our current borders. If PRC has the ability to squeeze our fuel supplies from Sakhalin. Then our victory on the Himalayan frontier will amount to nothing.
We buy oil from Middle East too -- diversified basket provides safer option than trying to fight China's PLAN near Sakhalin.
Spending big money on a Pipe Dream is just a waste of money that could be better spent elsewhere.
Second, do you really believe that our forces will be sufficient to deal with PRC. If they decide to send a 300 ship force to the Indian Ocean, in parallel with an all out offensive against India in the Tibetan theatre of operations, supported by the entirety of the PLAF.
If we can't deal PRC forces in our own immediately vicinity where we are strongest, then how would we deal with them near Sakhalin?
If I can't carry 100 lbs for 10 feet, how would I carry them 50 feet?

SSGN would be useful against Pak, China, etc.
The object is not to hand wave the problem. The object is to develop an honest understanding of the force required to keep our sea lanes open. While being able to defend land frontiers.

The argument about submarine and aircraft carriers has to be seen in that context.
There is also the idea of spending money on distant hypotheticals versus spending money against clear and present dangers.

We need to reap more return on our investment expenditures.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote: 26 Aug 2024 19:17Not at all disagreeing with your points per se, Rakesh ji. What i (and perhaps Sanman ji) meant was simply that the CM subs are a very potent arrow in that quiver. Especially since our opponents quiver is much larger.

Being inherently stealthy they are an asymmetric force multiplier (and a higher rung in the escalation ladder). Hundreds of cruise missiles lurking somewhere in very close proximity to your export hubs and ports is a hell of a deterrence. Even more than an AC carrier group which is more easy to track (and thus engage).

Now i fully agree that budgetary constraints force us to use multi-purpose platforms in all our service branches.

And so for the foreseeable future it will be our present SSNs and regular subs (with missile firing capabilities) which will aid in the role.
(SSGN-lite as you put it rather eloquently :) ).

In the far off future hopefully we will have them (might even be unmanned). No humans on board will give more space for munitions, more on-station loitering ability (as not limited by food). As a jingo i wish and hope our labs are working towards such platforms.
I have zero issue with SSGN. The issues are budgetary, priorities and timelines. The MoD is the one that needs convincing. There has to be a valid business case for this and there is none. One trick pony platforms are not going to fly in the MoD. This is just the reality.

We have to work with what we have and that includes the people we partner with. We cannot eliminate people out of the way to push an idea. That will work in Communist China, but it will not work in Democratic India. Xi and his Generals think of various options on how to take over Taiwan. But see where our priorities lie - the Leader of the Opposition is whining as to why there is no Caste Census in the Miss India contest. This is our priority. This is the policy discussion that keeps our politicians awake at night.

It truly is a miracle how the Armed Forces of India operate in this environment. It really is.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Pratyush »

The problem with being fixated with a specific weapon system is that the full gamut of capacity is getting ignored. At the expense national interest , and the capacity presented by a balanced force structure capable of keeping our sea lanes open anywhere in the world.

The German Kaiser had an idea of building Dreadnaughts to compete with the Royal Navy. Germany lost the war because the fleet was incapable of keeping German sea lines of communication open both in the north sea and the wider oceans of the world in the face of the grand fleet and widely dispersed Royal Navy trade protection cruisers.

The hypothetical SSGN is a one dimensional weapon, the only value it represents is the salvo of on board weapons. However many that it carries. The Navy as is currently is not going to be building several of those with 80 to 100 brahmos each or other cruise missiles. Small numbers of SSGN limited by 8 to 12 cruise missiles per boat represents the worst of all possible worlds. This SSGN is limited to a single salvo. And when used against a prepared enemy, will have a limited impact.

So I submit a different idea.

Completely forego sea based systems and focus purely on land based long range brahmos for Anti ship operations.

We also develop a 5000 km range cruise missile to strike deep into PRC from land based launchers. We save money and don't have to worry about protecting any maritime sea route to or from anywhere in the world. Who cares about tramp merchant men carrying crude or industrial raw materials for the Indian industry anyway.

So, we buy additional cruise missiles for the price we pay for the nuclear submarine.

Win-win. We don't have to build a balanced fleet, no aircraft carriers, no destroyers, no submarines. Money saved here is also invested in cruise missiles.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Pratyush »

Just imagine how many brahmos missiles can be procured by foregoing the 3rd aircraft carrier and its air group, and the P 18 destroyers, the SSNs and SSKs. We are easily looking at saving of over 3 lakh crores. Once we have foregone those programs. I am salivating at the absolute numbers of brahmos missiles we can buy.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Manish_P »

Pratyush wrote: 26 Aug 2024 20:55 ...
So I submit a different idea.

Completely forego sea based systems and focus purely on land based long range brahmos for Anti ship operations.

We also develop a 5000 km range cruise missile to strike deep into PRC from land based launchers. We save money and don't have to worry about protecting any maritime sea route to or from anywhere in the world. Who cares about tramp merchant men carrying crude or industrial raw materials for the Indian industry anyway. ...
Tempting, if it were not for the triple T issue.

The (relatively) longer time-to-target will give more opportunity for interception.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by sanman »

Pratyush wrote: 26 Aug 2024 20:55 The problem with being fixated with a specific weapon system is that the full gamut of capacity is getting ignored. At the expense national interest , and the capacity presented by a balanced force structure capable of keeping our sea lanes open anywhere in the world.

The German Kaiser had an idea of building Dreadnaughts to compete with the Royal Navy. Germany lost the war because the fleet was incapable of keeping German sea lines of communication open both in the north sea and the wider oceans of the world in the face of the grand fleet and widely dispersed Royal Navy trade protection cruisers.

The hypothetical SSGN is a one dimensional weapon, the only value it represents is the salvo of on board weapons. However many that it carries. The Navy as is currently is not going to be building several of those with 80 to 100 brahmos each or other cruise missiles. Small numbers of SSGN limited by 8 to 12 cruise missiles per boat represents the worst of all possible worlds. This SSGN is limited to a single salvo. And when used against a prepared enemy, will have a limited impact.
So I submit a different idea.

Completely forego sea based systems and focus purely on land based long range brahmos for Anti ship operations.
I like this idea and have asserted it before to Bharat Karnad on his blog.

India's peninsular landmass naturally juts far out into the Indian Ocean and affords us the ability to project land-based power out into that ocean.

Land-based military forces are the most economical military forces to create, operate, maintain.
Therefore there's a natural economic argument to this approach.

Long-range BrahMos, long-range strike aircraft like Russian Tu-223M bombers which were designed to unleash large salvos of anti-ship missiles.

Missiles & drones are the future - more economical, less manpower required.
We also develop a 5000 km range cruise missile to strike deep into PRC from land based launchers. We save money and don't have to worry about protecting any maritime sea route to or from anywhere in the world. Who cares about tramp merchant men carrying crude or industrial raw materials for the Indian industry anyway.

So, we buy additional cruise missiles for the price we pay for the nuclear submarine.

Win-win. We don't have to build a balanced fleet, no aircraft carriers, no destroyers, no submarines. Money saved here is also invested in cruise missiles.
While you may be showing sarcasm, the reality is that we don't have the ability to act on distant sea lanes unilaterally.
You will make useless investments in this realm just for show, while never achieving any useful return on that investment.
For acting on remote sea lanes, we would need to do it only though multi-lateral action, in which case our investment would be based on what works complementarily with what other multi-lateral partners have.
Investing in such remote unilateral methods & assets would ultimately never get used, and would thus constitute wasted money.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by sanman »

Pratyush wrote: 26 Aug 2024 20:59 Just imagine how many brahmos missiles can be procured by foregoing the 3rd aircraft carrier and its air group, and the P 18 destroyers, the SSNs and SSKs. We are easily looking at saving of over 3 lakh crores. Once we have foregone those programs. I am salivating at the absolute numbers of brahmos missiles we can buy.
Yeah, or we can invest in joint development for improving BrahMos missiles. We're far behind Kinzhal capabilities, which we need to reach sooner rather than later.

Even prior to WW2, the US & UK used to make use of some large Flying Boats. Those went obsolete because their reinforced hulls required for water had a weight disadvantage to landing gear with tires. But given our lower state of technology, we should try to develop those and then see if we can adapt them for inland LZs. I'd also imagine useful private commercial spinoff potential, if these can be used for rapid bulk cargo transport across Indian Ocean Region, between Middle East, East Africa, Australia and SouthEast Asia. Even Wing-in-Ground Effect could be leveraged for greater fuel efficiency.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

So we have moved from SSGN to long range, land based cruise missiles :rotfl:
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Pratyush »

Rakesh wrote: 27 Aug 2024 04:48 So we have moved from SSGN to long range, land based cruise missiles :rotfl:
You have to admit that in terms of returns on investment. It's a tempting idea. :mrgreen:
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by sanman »

Rakesh wrote: 27 Aug 2024 04:48 So we have moved from SSGN to long range, land based cruise missiles :rotfl:
I think both could be good. But we should certainly see the economic advantage of having assets which enable us to project land-based power into the sea, since such land-based power is more economical to build and maintain.

My argument for more SSGN in relation to SSBN is that we only get diminishing returns from nuclear deterrence beyond a certain point.
We want the active returns that SSGN can give us, since we still tend to have more hot conflicts than other major powers.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 27 Aug 2024 04:48 So we have moved from SSGN to long range, land based cruise missiles :rotfl:
Admiral sir, in war you never know and so never say no.

After all from sub, ship and air launched torpedoes we now have developed ultra long range missile launched torpedoes

:twisted:
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by SSridhar »

A small diversion from the SSBN/SSGN debate,

Rajnath seeks US help for building advanced water tunnel facility
Defence Minister Rajnath Singh, as a part of his US tour, visited the Large Cavitation Channel (LCC) along with the senior official of the Indian Navy and Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). India is also working to establish a similar facility.

As per the Ministry for Defence (MoD), Rajnath Singh visited “the William B Morgan LCC in the Naval Surface Warfare Centre (NSWC) at Memphis, Tennessee,” on Saturday.

The LCC is one of the world’s largest and most technically-advanced water tunnel facility for testing submarines, torpedoes, naval surface ships and propellers. He was briefed at the facility and he witnessed an actual tunnel experiment.

The discussions also intend to support the ongoing proposal for establishment of a similar facility for indigenous design and development in India, MoD said.

Singh was accompanied by Ambassador of India to US, Director General, Naval Operations from the Indian Navy and DRDO Defence Technology Counsellor, among others. He was received by the US Deputy Under Secretary of the Navy for Policy, and briefed by Commander and Technical Director of the NSWC.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by ShauryaT »

What is the intended use case? Karwar, Vishakapatnam or somewhere else?
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

ShauryaT wrote: 27 Aug 2024 20:24 What is the intended use case? Karwar, Vishakapatnam or somewhere else?
Go here for more info....
https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfar ... Tennessee/
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy On its Way to a Million Tonne – 50 Ships Under Construction
https://www.overtdefense.com/2024/08/23 ... struction/
23 August 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Japan and India progress towards UNICORN stealth antenna deal
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... enna-deal/
27 August 2024
Japan and India have agreed to proceed with Tokyo’s planned export to New Delhi of the UNICORN integrated stealth antenna system that is currently used for the Mogami-class multirole frigate of the Japanese Maritime Self-Defense Force.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Rajnath Singh’s Visit to US Navy Facility Sparks Plans for Similar Base In India
https://bharatshakti.in/rajnath-singhs- ... -in-india/
25 August 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by ShauryaT »

Rakesh wrote: 27 Aug 2024 20:36
ShauryaT wrote: 27 Aug 2024 20:24 What is the intended use case? Karwar, Vishakapatnam or somewhere else?
Go here for more info....
https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Home/Warfar ... Tennessee/
Thanks Rakesh. I should have phrased it better. Which location will most likely get this facility?
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by SSridhar »

ShauryaT, I would imagine it would be Kochi
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Manish_P wrote:...
sanman wrote:...
Gentlemen, your SSGN proposal just got a massive boost, from none other than Saurav Jha. Kudos to both of you!

Let's hope the MoD bites and provides the funds.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1829195261731844378 ---> A SSGN based on the Arihant baseline is an idea whose time has come in my view.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by ShauryaT »

Jha is a jingo just like all of us. Which Rakshak would not want an SSGN. However your view is right, not the priority amongst competing options.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Manish_P »

Rakesh wrote: 29 Aug 2024 23:35
Manish_P wrote:...
sanman wrote:...
Gentlemen, your SSGN proposal just got a massive boost, from none other than Saurav Jha. Kudos to both of you!

Let's hope the MoD bites and provides the funds.

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1829195261731844378 ---> A SSGN based on the Arihant baseline is an idea whose time has come in my view.
Just another astra in our quiver, Admiral sir. If we obtain it in addition to other astras, then great.

Anyway, IMVHO, due to our defensive doctrine, we will probably need platforms to counter chinese SSBNs (or SSGNs :mrgreen: ) which will soon start prowling close to our ports and naval bases.

They will cost a whole lot of money too. Likely even more than a few SSGNs platforms being proposed (by Jingos).

So the chances of monies for SSGNs is even less in the future.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by ShauryaT »

Manish_P wrote: 30 Aug 2024 08:43
Anyway, IMVHO, due to our defensive doctrine, we will probably need platforms to counter chinese SSBNs (or SSGNs :mrgreen: ) which will soon start prowling close to our ports and naval bases.
SSBN's entire purpose is to stay far away from high risk waters and use long range missiles to threaten the enemy. They are slow and lack agility. There is only one type of asset, which has the capability to hunt and neutralize this threat with impunity and this is and has been the need for decades now. We should fulfill that need FIRST at least in our lifetimes! (A little pessimistic but this "program" was started in the 70's for crying sake!).
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Manish_P »

ShauryaT wrote: 30 Aug 2024 09:13
Manish_P wrote: 30 Aug 2024 08:43
Anyway, IMVHO, due to our defensive doctrine, we will probably need platforms to counter chinese SSBNs (or SSGNs :mrgreen: ) which will soon start prowling close to our ports and naval bases.
SSBN's entire purpose is to stay far away from high risk waters and use long range missiles to threaten the enemy. They are slow and lack agility. There is only one type of asset, which has the capability to hunt and neutralize this threat with impunity and this is and has been the need for decades now. We should fulfill that need FIRST at least in our lifetimes! (A little pessimistic but this "program" was started in the 70's for crying sake!).
True as they have to be survivable second-strike nuke platforms

Improvements in missile interception meant non-ballistic missiles (low flying mid-course maneuvering cruise) launched from up close (lesser reaction time) had better chances penetrating defenses and hitting targets.

That's one reason the US, Russia and others are more edgy when they see opponent missile subs lurking close to their coast lines then when they are shadowing boomers across the oceans.

In any case multi-role Subs are the thing for us for multiple reasons (or constraints). We just need more of them. Many more.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by R Charan »

India to Produce 25 Submarines in Next 10 Years Worth $31 Billion to Counter China's Growing Presence
https://defence.in/threads/india-to-pro ... ence.9761/
06 Sept 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Manish_P »

^ It is Ganesh Chaturthi today. An auspicious day.

So I will just smile (and silently pray that it happens as quickly as can be)

:D
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

CSL launches 2 anti-submarine warfare shallow water crafts for Indian Navy
https://psuwatch.com/newsupdates/csl-la ... e_vignette
09 Sept 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Prem Kumar »

Totally 16 ASW-SWC on order and they all seem to be coming along nicely! Key assets for coastal defense.

Of the key sensors, the variable depth sonar is imported. Hope we indigenize that also, soon

The next-gen ASW should include UUVs that can serve as wingmen to these crafts
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by mody »

Prem Kumar wrote: 09 Sep 2024 23:38 Totally 16 ASW-SWC on order and they all seem to be coming along nicely! Key assets for coastal defense.

Of the key sensors, the variable depth sonar is imported. Hope we indigenize that also, soon

The next-gen ASW should include UUVs that can serve as wingmen to these crafts
Not really true. The import pasand CSL imported something as basic as Air vent Heads from Europe for approx. 1.6 crores for the 8 ships.
We supplied to GRSE for the same project for 35 Lakhs for the 8 ships that GRSE is building. 5 times the cost for all the imported malai.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy looking to conclude 3 mega deals worth Rs 1.25 lakh crore by end of this fiscal year
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 910195501/
10 Sept 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by wig »

Defence Ministry clears Navy's Rs 2,500 crore plan for unmanned vessels with capabilities to attack submarines
https://m.economictimes.com/news/defenc ... 266858.cms
11 Sept 2024

extracts...
The proposal for building the 100-tonne unmanned underwater vessels was given clearance at a high level defence ministry meeting held recently, defence sources told here.

The underwater vessels in the Extra Large category would weigh over 100 tonnes and would be equipped with strike capabilities against enemy submarines and surface vessels, they said.
utility
The Navy has plans of using such vessels for a plethora of tasks such as laying mines and mine clearing operations, surveillance, and launching weapons, the sources said.

The Navy would want the vessels with capability to remain underwater for very long hours at long distances from the shore to keep an eye on the movement of suspicious vessels and other activities and safeguard national interest
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Defence Ministry clears Navy's Rs 2,500 crore plan for unmanned vessels with capabilities to attack submarines
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 911203355/
11 Sept 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Bharat Electronics Limited clinches ₹850 crore Cochin Shipyard Limited deal for indigenous naval radar systems
https://www.indiasentinels.com/defence- ... stems-6505
11 Sept 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy’s ambitious unmanned vessels set to transform mine laying and weapon launching tactics
https://english.mathrubhumi.com/news/in ... -1.9893275
11 Sept 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 11 Sep 2024 00:01 Indian Navy looking to conclude 3 mega deals worth Rs 1.25 lakh crore by end of this fiscal year
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 910195501/
10 Sept 2024
The Indian Navy is on a modernization roll....

1) MQ-9B drones
2) Three more Scorpene SSKs
3) 22 Rafale Ms + 4 Rafale Bs
4) Six existing Scorpenes to be fitted with DRDO AIP
5) Conclusion of the Project 75I contest (with TKMS the likely winner): viewtopic.php?p=2629327#p2629327

+ induction of seven P-17A frigates + MoD clearance for seven P-17B frigates + quicker induction of SSBNs + CCS approval (still pending) for a pair of Project 75A (also called Project 77) SSNs. All this spending is being done to counter the PLAN in the Indian Ocean. But still no update on IAC-2.

The IAF's MRFA contest will take a back seat (due to the above spending) and will evolve into a 5th generation fighter contest.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by drnayar »

SSridhar wrote: 27 Aug 2024 14:39 A small diversion from the SSBN/SSGN debate,

Rajnath seeks US help for building advanced water tunnel facility
Not to nitpick, but we know how the request to US for hypersonic wind tunnel etc went !! ., bet that it wont happen after dragging on for a decade.
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

Indian Navy gives proactive push to Make in India, forms task forces to reach out to desi industry for weapons, equipment requirements
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 918192436/
18 Sept 2024
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by SRajesh »

Rakesh
What ever happened to that ShimayWa U2 plans??
Is it in the Tanda-baxa for some emergency procurements?? :roll:
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Re: Naval Procurements & Acquisitions: 02 April 2024

Post by Rakesh »

SRajesh wrote: 27 Sep 2024 18:26 Rakesh
What ever happened to that ShimayWa U2 plans??
Is it in the Tanda-baxa for some emergency procurements?? :roll:
At present, in cold water stage...just like the second aircraft carrier, the IAC-2.

Nuclear powered submarines have taken precedence over other procurements. And what was a six vessel build project (under Project 75A or also known as Project 77) has been curtailed to just two boats. The proposal of these two boats, is before the CCS...so keeping fingers crossed.
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