Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[Karan M]

Time to have a quick recap of where we are on our missile programs.

The DRDO has the following programs at the verge of completion.

1. .............
11. Akash Prime, 2 regiment indent placed by IA
12. Akash 1S, 2 squadron upgrade order placed by IAF
...

This is just from a quick recall. Am sure I've missed a bunch.

Karan what's the difference between Akash Prime and Akash 1S? I thought the Akash 1S (Akash with RF seeker), had been remained as Akash Prime.

8 Squadrons of Akash had been inducted and a second lot of 7 squadrons had been ordered. It was rumoured that some of these squadrons would be changed to Akash Prime/1S and some of the older squadrons, already in service would also be upgraded with new missiles with the RF seekers.
Have any additional squadrons been ordered? Any idea about whether the follow on order for 7 squadrons has been delivered?

Akash Prime is Akash 1 S with additional system mods for lower temperature mods, more compact ground footprint and better radar surveillance , fire control capability for 360 degree engagement. It is meant for high altitude ops. 2 regiments of these are on order. Also, 3D CAR Prime is on order from BEL. This is basically the DRDO's LLTR Ashwini. 3D CAR modified with an AESA array instead of the original. While IAF has been dragging it's feet on Ashwini and PMO has allowed the services to make a mockery of IDDM by letting licensed gear pass off as IDDM while simultaneously trying to take away DRDOs fiscal authority away from it, at least this is a positive.

Akash 1 S is the Akash with a RF seeker and suitably modified, and IAF has ordered modifications for 2 squadrons equivalent (of their 15 squadron total). Presumably, once proven, they'll order more.

[Rakesh]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur.

https://x.com/Tanishq_bafila/status/1834889625908793582 ---> QRSAM: Going through trials and would be completely by 2026 end.

[Rakesh]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur.

https://x.com/Tanishq_bafila/status/1835017944776294802 ---> Update on AKASH-NG.

Q: Why the range of the system missile is 30 km only? Is it NG and are these conservative numbers?

A: Nope, actually there are other modifications done on it. But the range is 30 - 35 km and it can kill six targets simultaneously now.

[Hriday]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur....

Rakesh ji, the link belongs to QRSAM you mentioned just before the above post. Also 35 km range means it is the ramjet powered old Akash missile. Akash-NG is solid fuelled with a range of around 80 km.

[Rakesh]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur....

Rakesh ji, the link belongs to QRSAM you mentioned just before the above post. Also 35 km range means it is the ramjet powered old Akash missile. Akash-NG is solid fuelled with a range of around 80 km.

Oops. Sorry Hriday! I have corrected the link. Wrt to the range query in your post, below is an update from Tanishq,..

https://x.com/Ansh15568921/status/1835235442678997151 ---> Its range is around 60-70 km. How can a dual pulse missile have 30 km range?

https://x.com/Tanishq_bafila/status/1835238285741895824 ---> Had the same doubt. Even tried to know if it is a conservative number, but he declined and said there will be one more missile that will have a range of 70km with the help of boosters.

[Prem Kumar]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur.

https://x.com/Tanishq_bafila/status/1835017944776294802 ---> Update on AKASH-NG.

Q: Why the range of the system missile is 30 km only? Is it NG and are these conservative numbers?

A: Nope, actually there are other modifications done on it. But the range is 30 - 35 km and it can kill six targets simultaneously now.

Something does not add up. The tweeple is saying that the DRDO guy confirmed Akash-NG having a 30 Km range only and that its not a conservative number. But given DRDO has experience building the dual-pulse propulsion for MRSAM, I find this range very hard to believe. You don't need a booster for a 70 Km range missile.

And this is an org that's building the Kusha series of missiles with 350 Km max range

Heck, the VL-Astra-1 itself has a 30 Km range!

Either its ignorance, plain disinfo or perhaps someone is scuttling the project, given that Akash-NG is a direct competitor to MRSAM!

This *understating the range & satyameva-jayate* business is coming back to bite the DRDO hard. The same Twitter handle talked about how the Hermes (rebranded as Dristhi by Adani & tom-tommed as Atmanirbhar by Rajnath Singh) has only a frigging 15-16 hr endurance! Homegrown Tapas has a 18 hr endurance and was rejected by Armed Forces as not meeting GSQR

Are our Forces so dumb that they take brochure claims at face value? Or is that a convenient excuse to import?

[srai]

^^^
According to DRDO poster, it is 30km.

Image Source: https://images.app.goo.gl/evxpN9T8M4kZwZkG6

[Karan M]

Take all public data with informed skepticism as always

[Prem Kumar]

As I said, something does not square

If (& its a big if) Akash-NG has a 30 Km range, why in the world are they even building it? What incremental improvement does it offer, other than being canisterized? The 360 degree coverage is something even the Akash 1S/Prime have, as Karan M pointed out

Were they deliberately told to keep it down to 30Km so that there is no competition to the Israeli MRSAM?

[Karan M]

As long as the MRSAM is around, Akash NG details will be understated IMHO. Anyways Kusha M1 will match/surpass MRSAM as well. M2, M3 will be booster equipped variants of the Kusha M1. Kusha M1 itself will be derived from Akash NG.

[Rakesh]

DRDO has a long standing practice of understating ranges. I remember this from the 90s itself. Nothing new.

[Karan M]

I think it's high time DRDO hired good publicists and showed their true depth and capacity irrespective of select groups in the bureaucracy and AF folks who try to put down desi products. Public perception matters and it is the reason why the DRDOs products are often slagged in public to deliberately create a ground for imports.

[Manish_P]

^ Agree, Karan ji.

But in India it will be an uphill battle due to the long history of sarkari services.

Nothing sells like success. Lot of emphasis on foreign sales and trumpeting of those would be quite effective.

Helis to S America, howitzers to Armenia, boots to Russia.

All should be publicized. In a big way.

[Prem Kumar]

Its also cultural to not flaunt your achievement

Plus we think we have done something very Chanakian to understate ranges, to surprise enemy in the battlefield. Except that we shy away from war all the time (even necessary ones)

While there is room for Chanakian style deception, Viveka-buddhi needs to be applied to determine where to be Chanakian and where not. There might be some merit in understating say the Agni-V range, but there isn't in understating the Akash-NG range

There is more to be gained by tom-tomming such achievements, as we have learnt from the West. It creates excitement in the public & encourages students to achieve something similar. It helps in exports. It makes the citizens proud of our nation. It convinces brochure-believing-dumbasses that we too are great. It kills off import-lobbies because they cannot diss our products based on fake-reports. It scares off enemies (Sun Tzu art of winning a war without fighting) etc

This self-effacement needs to stop

[Karan M]

Completely agree Manish_P and Prem Kumar. I was in the self effacement camp till I saw how the bureaucracy recently targeted the DRDO to completely strip it of it's autonomy and financial powers. At the same time they've issued strict instructions to DRDO to not talk about it's achievements at all. The DRDO needs to get out of it's good boy, first bencher, user/GOI pleaser mindset and realise that in this world, sales & marketing are crucial to how people perceive you. Their self effacement is becoming such a detriment that their very survival is at stake.

[basant]

My guess is DRDO may be using the India specific conditions (viz., weather, average altitude for launch, type of and manoeuvring target, etc.) for the conventional missiles. There might be some understatement, but I guess it would not be significant.

[Karan M]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur.

https://x.com/Tanishq_bafila/status/1834889625908793582 ---> QRSAM: Going through trials and would be completely by 2026 end.

This guy has misinterpreted the reality.
BEL reports:
"All the trials and everything has been completed successfully. So many lab reports and other things were given to the user and were satisfactory on all the things. Now they have asked us for budgetary quotes and it is still a long process, because by beginning of April to June next year we may get this order as it is a long process, still AO, and then they will get financial sanctions, then they will ask for a formal negotiation and then placing order to us. So we are expecting maybe April to June next year we will get this order."

[srai]

^^^
One thing the GoI really needs to do is provide a competitive edge to IDDM through “fast-track” streamlined procurement process supported by “reserve” funds.

[Karan M]

^^^
One thing the GoI really needs to do is provide a competitive edge to IDDM through “fast-track” streamlined procurement process supported by “reserve” funds.

This GOI does not want to spend 1 Rs extra on defence and has demonstrated it over the past ten years. Their focus is social justice and economic growth.

[Rakesh]

Bingo! Well said KaranM.

That is what brings in votes. And after this recent election, the Govt is going to double down on social justice and economic growth. This is the reality of politics. Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas is the slogan of the GOI.

Shining Example of Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas ---> https://x.com/MeghUpdates/status/1836587822716735785

Importing will continue to be the chief conduit in which the forces will get any new equipment and this is a path that the forces prefer. Lip service will be given to Atmanirbhar Bharat (token orders here and there + combined with a plethora of empty words i.e. speeches), because in the short term importing is cheaper. And people have short memories and want immediate results i.e. 36 Rafales inducted and thus airspace is now secure vis-à-vis the PLAAF and the PAF. The last time I checked, it costs US $250 million to set up a Tejas line. It will cost less than a billion USD to acquire a couple of flying test beds for turbofan development. But is that fancy as inducting 36 Rafales? What does it matter if that fancy costs nearly US $9 billion!

Publishing achievements in the annual MoD brochure is more important than Atmanirbhar Bharat.

And as despondent the situation is, it will be far worse under the opposition.

[Manish_P]

...
That is what (they think) brings in votes
...

Corrected it for your, Admiral sir

...
And as despondent the situation is, it will be far worse under the opposition.

Exactly what a jingo like me tells myself before hitting the bed to continue to dream.. woh subah kabhi to aayegi

[sanman]

Mach-12 is pretty amazing. After that, what else is there to look forward to?



Once we achieve all these best-possible missiles, we need to focus on getting the best possible launch platforms.

We need to have stuff like Tu-223M as well as SSGN, because those are the best launch platforms.

[Prem Kumar]

Bingo! Well said KaranM.

.....because in the short term importing is cheaper. And people have short memories and want immediate results i.e. 36 Rafales inducted and thus airspace is now secure vis-à-vis the PLAAF and the PAF ....

And even this part is not true in many cases. A crime.....I mean.... prime example is the MQ-9B Sea Guardian drones. At $3 Billion, each of these puppies is costlier than a Tejas. They are unreliable, as seen in the latest crash in the Bay of Bengal (as an aside, look how the media went overboard to call it a controlled ditching to make it seem like the mission was a success!). They are also unsurvivable against any decent AD system.

A fraction of this money, spent on domestic Tapas will buy them more drones & will get us an indigenous, armed Predator

The biggest stick that the AF Leadership has perfected is panic buying. By constantly complaining about lack of squadrons etc, by placing piecemeal orders, by never-ending trials --- we are ill-prepared when a sudden Galwan happens. Then the Raksha Mantri & bean-counting MoD babus don't have any choice to open up the purse-strings for .... no prizes ..... emergency imports

Needless to say, Modi's Vikas nonsense isn't helping either. A 1000 year history should have taught him that all our economic progress without a military to defend it, only means that we are fattening the calf (ourselves) for an invader to slaughter

When I look at the arc of his Atmanirbhar policy in defence, he is looking at it from a prism of job-creation, in the likes of PLI in electronics manufacturing. So, he welcomes anyone who wants to sell to our military, sets up a JV & promises that this will create 1000 jobs in UP! To convince himself, he calls them all as Atmanirbhar. He does not seem to realize that manufacturing an iPhone is a different ballgame than making a plane & also the strategic calculus behind the latter. This is quite sad because the semiconductor PLI shows that this Govt/PM is capable of understanding these differences. But military hardware seems to be a blind spot

[A Deshmukh]

For BRs and Scientists/Tech oriented folks, Atmanirbhar means Bharat Designed and Developed and Produced and Maintained equipment.

But there are benefits of part indigenization - only Production and Maintenance - also, apart from job creation and economic benefits.

Today, we are exporting ammunition to the West.
We are doing or will be doing MRO for all. Russian equipment, US Ships, French Rafales.
Once these industries (Production and MRO) are setup (colorally - setup has moved from some other part of the world),
it creates inter-dependence.

ex: if US sanctions GE engines, we can sanction ammunition supply.
we have not reached a point of great leverage yet, but we will in the future.
this strategic interdependence will lead to stable supply and strategic freedom.
not a bad gamble for a country that is technology behind by 15-20 years.

the production and mro - creates industries of sub-components - starting with nuts and bolts, but plenty of small items.
this may look trivial, but if this capability (of manufacturing small components) doesn't exist in the country, then we remain dependent.

wherever we have caught up - ex: missiles, lighter helicopters, ship building - we don't see any imported projects.
some tech we are catching up - artillery guns, tanks, radars, planes, sonars, torpedoes, submarines
others we are still way behind - drones, engines, ai

[Cain Marko]

Bingo! Well said KaranM.

That is what brings in votes. And after this recent election, the Govt is going to double down on social justice and economic growth. This is the reality of politics. Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas is the slogan of the GOI.

My issue is not imports. If imports it is, at least do that properly!!!!

2 full terms have gone by and only 36 rafales are here. It takes only 10 years to have serious chai biskoot for 26 navy versions when we know fully well that carriers are ready.
The mrca saga has gone on for decades, ditto with hawks.

They will buy everything piecemeal at inflated prices. all in the name of affordability. National security be damned and tax payers.

Oh. I have simply given up on homegrown brew for conventional purposes.

[mody]

As I said, something does not square

If (& its a big if) Akash-NG has a 30 Km range, why in the world are they even building it? What incremental improvement does it offer, other than being canisterized? The 360 degree coverage is something even the Akash 1S/Prime have, as Karan M pointed out

Were they deliberately told to keep it down to 30Km so that there is no competition to the Israeli MRSAM?

An order for 9 squadrons of MRSAM have been placed and the production is ongoing. The real test will be to see if any additional orders are placed for the MRSAM or IAF orders the Akash-NG instead. The requirement for medium range SAMs is much higher than 9 squadrons. Remember, these are replacing the old SA-123 Pechora SAMs and also trying to offer SAM cover to a greater area. We had/have 28 squadrons of Pechora SAMs.

If no additional orders for MRSAM are placed, then the range of the Akash-NG should be comparable to the MRSAM. Also, the dual thrust motor for the MRSAM, has been developed by DRDO and manufactured in India. So the rocket for providing the required range is already available. The fire control radar and the seeker of the MRSAM are from Israel.
There might be an understanding with the Yehudi's that Akash-NG would not compete with the Barak-8 in the international market and hence the understating of the range.
Also, I distinctly recall that in the past when the Akash-NG project was started, the range was stated as 50Kms. Also, even though the missile is canisterized, the missile launcher is angled like the QRSAM and the missile is not launched vertically. This is a difference as compared to the MRSAM.

[Kartik]

Bingo! Well said KaranM.

That is what brings in votes. And after this recent election, the Govt is going to double down on social justice and economic growth. This is the reality of politics. Sabka Saath, Sabka Vikas is the slogan of the GOI.

My issue is not imports. If imports it is, at least do that properly!!!!

2 full terms have gone by and only 36 rafales are here. It takes only 10 years to have serious chai biskoot for 26 navy versions when we know fully well that carriers are ready.
The mrca saga has gone on for decades, ditto with hawks.

They will buy everything piecemeal at inflated prices. all in the name of affordability. National security be damned and tax payers.

Oh. I have simply given up on homegrown brew for conventional purposes.

Things are not looking good at all. No end in sight for the MRFA, delays and more delays on all indigenous fighter programs. Delays in approvals, delays in funds, all while touting Atmanirbhar Bharat everywhere all the time.

I'm seriously so disappointed with PM Modi and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

Meanwhile, the PAF has even in it's most recent video by DGISPR, made it clear that the J-31/J-35 whatever will be part of their fleet, whenever it will be ready. Just watch for the real meltdown when that will happen and we have nothing on the 5th gen front till 2035-38 at least.

[Cain Marko]

My issue is not imports. If imports it is, at least do that properly!!!!

2 full terms have gone by and only 36 rafales are here. It takes only 10 years to have serious chai biskoot for 26 navy versions when we know fully well that carriers are ready.
The mrca saga has gone on for decades, ditto with hawks.

They will buy everything piecemeal at inflated prices. all in the name of affordability. National security be damned and tax payers.

Oh. I have simply given up on homegrown brew for conventional purposes.

Things are not looking good at all. No end in sight for the MRFA, delays and more delays on all indigenous fighter programs. Delays in approvals, delays in funds, all while touting Atmanirbhar Bharat everywhere all the time.

I'm seriously so disappointed with PM Modi and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

Meanwhile, the PAF has even in it's most recent video by DGISPR, made it clear that the J-31/J-35 whatever will be part of their fleet, whenever it will be ready. Just watch for the real meltdown when that will happen and we have nothing on the 5th gen front till 2035-38 at least.

It's a good thing I've learned to do some pranayam, my BP would be off the charts thinking about state of MOD, services and political procurement process.

It's been nigh on 26 years since I've hung around on BR (as have you I'm guessing). I was a young 'un then, drooling over the possibility of Fernandes signing off on M2K-5s. India shining they said. But mrca continues to loom in various avatars, the LCA continues in bits and spurts, and the AMCA remains on paper. there's no end in sight. Mirage remains a mirage. Did the navy get it's minesweepers yet I wonder. I think I'll still be wondering when my grand kids start frequenting the forum.

Watching Indian military procurement is a surefire way to get old and die young!

[Kartik]

Things are not looking good at all. No end in sight for the MRFA, delays and more delays on all indigenous fighter programs. Delays in approvals, delays in funds, all while touting Atmanirbhar Bharat everywhere all the time.

I'm seriously so disappointed with PM Modi and Defence Minister Rajnath Singh.

Meanwhile, the PAF has even in it's most recent video by DGISPR, made it clear that the J-31/J-35 whatever will be part of their fleet, whenever it will be ready. Just watch for the real meltdown when that will happen and we have nothing on the 5th gen front till 2035-38 at least.

It's a good thing I've learned to do some pranayam, my BP would be off the charts thinking about state of MOD, services and political procurement process.

It's been nigh on 26 years since I've hung around on BR (as have you I'm guessing). I was a young 'un then, drooling over the possibility of Fernandes signing off on M2K-5s. India shining they said. But mrca continues to loom in various avatars, the LCA continues in bits and spurts, and the AMCA remains on paper. there's no end in sight. Mirage remains a mirage. Did the navy get it's minesweepers yet I wonder. I think I'll still be wondering when my grand kids start frequenting the forum.

Watching Indian military procurement is a surefire way to get old and die young!

Yes, the entire saga of re-equipping the IAF has been a disaster. An unmitigated disaster. Forced to fly Bisons for way longer than they should've been. Forced to upgrade Jaguars and keep them going for as long as they possibly can.

While I'm very appreciative of the support the Modi Govt has shown over the previous 2 terms to the Tejas program, I am desperately disappointed by how they've let MRFA just drag on for so long. Meanwhile, piecemeal imports like the latest 70,000 Sig 716 rifle imports are allowed while absolutely valid indigenous options exist.

As Karan M pointed out, their priority is to spend on big ticket items, and I feel that they're now looking to somehow staving off a big conflict with China. Under the situation, I doubt the IAF will get anything more than Tejas Mk1As (praying that it will be at the desired pace of deliveries) in this decade, till Tejas Mk2 get into production.

[A Deshmukh]

Don't understand the rona-dhona on the Missiles thread.
We are doing very well on the missiles front.
We don't have any major missiles import project after S-400.

I am quite proud of what Modi sarkar and RMs - Parrikar, RNS has achieved so far.

[S_Madhukar]

I think the govt has a tough job between self reliance and imports. We are on a tightrope and there are charlatans everywhere. We are also hoping for reliable partners but some of them are pure backstabbers. And just because we have a schedule doesn’t mean their schedules and innovation timelines will match ours. Meanwhile the backlog grows …

[fanne]

No body is talking about the elephant in the room- the major (and the pivotal) reason for delay are the armed forces- unrealistic planning, changing requirements, marvel comic specs, I have left out the most important reason, you can please guess it.
It is then followed by misery all along with all major players.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

X-Posting from Israel-Hezbollah-Iran War thread

As per which reports, Republic World?

Iran Destroys 30 Israeli F-35 Fighter Jets in Massive Missile Attack: Reports

My key takeout from seeing the RU- UA war, and the war in the Middle East is the need for massive numbers of missiles and artillery needed to break through enemy air defense systems. I really hope that the Indian defense establishment is preparing for this. Even if reports of a stockpile of 1500 Brahmos are true, it will not be sufficient against the Lizard. Even for 155 mm artillery shells, our projected production end 2027 will be 0.3 million p.a., whereas, currently Russia is firing over 0.45 million p.m. In the event of a war, we will not be in a position to continue fighting with a free hand.
I believe the same goes for Air Defense, AAM's, MANPADS and ATGM's. The Services really need to look for a cost-effective desi solution than gold plated kit from abroad.

[Haridas]

No body is talking about the elephant in the room- the major (and the pivotal) reason for delay are the armed forces- unrealistic planning, changing requirements, marvel comic specs, I have left out the most important reason, you can please guess it.
It is then followed by misery all along with all major players.

Hawai Fauj jarnails march forward with head turned backwards. Get the world's best and proven in war flying objects , write the specs, also must come cheap. OK to wait 7 yrs for first flight of 4 objects and all qty in 15 yrs. Will be ready for war then.


Yet to see a forward looking warfighting system envisage by the Hawaii jarnails. Get 5 futuristic concept and settle for two that stick. No saar, can't be done, you are falling out of line.
Oh yaa the AeroIndia fly past was good. Good enough saar.

[Prem Kumar]

I hope the new IAF Chief will bring in some much-needed sense. He is sending the right signals in his first press conferences. Instead of going MRFA, MRFA mantra like his predecessor, he is insisting on homegrown systems (Tejas Mk1, Mk2, AMCA, Kusha, Akash-NG etc)

All these are good signs. Hope talk is converted to action in terms of large orders & expedited testing

HAL/ADA also have to deliver on time

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1841474561021272320 ---> Air intake of Nirbhay missile.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/NewsIADN/status/1841703401949634658 ---> Nirbhay cruise missile showing its sea skimming capabilities. The shadow of the missile can be spotted, showing how close to the surface the missile is flying. DRDO is developing various models for the three services through the ITCM initiative.

[Karan M]

Don't understand the rona-dhona on the Missiles thread.
We are doing very well on the missiles front.
We don't have any major missiles import project after S-400.

I am quite proud of what Modi sarkar and RMs - Parrikar, RNS has achieved so far.

While proudly declaring any critique as Rhona dhona, can you tell me what exactly have we inducted in number besides just announcing AoNs.

"We are doing very well on the missiles front", really. And what have we actually inducted in substantial number. That is where the boot meets the road, and where optimism confronts brutal reality.

Fact is apart from a couple of tactical systems, we are badly lagging in magazine depth as it is a function of both AF prioritisation (and they choose emergency imports) and budgets (which are limited).

We are way behind the PRC let alone PRC and Pak combined. We should not at all be sanguine about these two adversaries.

[Prem Kumar]

The paltry orders of even BMs like Pralay & non-existent orders of the other P-series missiles (Prahaar, Pragati, Pranash) is just shameful

The reason I am singling these missiles out is because these are cheap to induct in large numbers & are a deadly force multiplier. So, budget *will not* be an issue. We face China who has 1000s of BMs pointed at us. Pointing a few thousand back at them is the cheapest form of deterrence

A little fun fact: a few days back, Iran hit 2 Israeli airbases with 180 ballistic missiles in one night! A shooting war with China will involve many multiples of that

[chetak]

The Akash SAM reloading vehicle.