Airborne Early Warning & Control: News & Discussion

[Atmavik]

Pakistan AF did not "build" anything they bought off the shelf from Sweden and China ..and the Chinese stuff was just junk. guys chill. The Indian AWACS / AEW&C would be a much more capable and cutting-edge platform

The top brass dropped the ball. their role is to plan and acquire platforms to maintain the edge. we are repeating the same mistake with ATAGS now.

[Prem Kumar]

The latest AoN is a breath of fresh air. Total 30 aircraft approved, out of which 15 are MRMR, 3 COMINT/SIGINT, 6 Netra 1a, 6 refuellers

All 30 are force multipliers!

But

1) AoNs have to translate to orders. ATAGS AoN was issued in Jan 2023. The order is still to materialize, following which deliveries will start after its own lead time

2) Even 6 more Netras are an insufficient for a 2 front war. They will barely give us parity vis-a-vis Pakistan, while we should have had overmatch against that beggar nation and should be threatening China on the sheer # of birds we can put up against her in a sector

3) Repeated IAF Chiefs indeed dropped the ball. Even more egregious, considering how much actual war experience with AEWs they actually got during 2019 Balakot. Just like the IA, they don't even learn from their own experience. Their MRFA tunnel-vision has clouded their thinking

[Cain Marko]

My guess is that they preferred s400 + rafale combo over force multipliers. But they could have easily ordered additional 3 Netra systems IMHO.

[Prem Kumar]

Given that they are scrambling now, it means that their thinking was wrong. Its hard to understand how an S-400 + Rafale combo will give you full air picture, guide fighters etc. Plus we dont have enough of either to assume we have achieved area denial versus even Pakistan

Its unfathomable how often the armchair pundits are proven right, while our super-duper fighter jockeys and West Point thinkers cannot get the basics right!

[srai]

“No Plan B” was how it was stated as an ultimatum on obtaining the MMRCA … even when it was obviously unaffordable

[Cain Marko]

Given that they are scrambling now, it means that their thinking was wrong. Its hard to understand how an S-400 + Rafale combo will give you full air picture, guide fighters etc. Plus we dont have enough of either to assume we have achieved area denial versus even Pakistan

Its unfathomable how often the armchair pundits are proven right, while our super-duper fighter jockeys and West Point thinkers cannot get the basics right!

Yeah. And it's not just the authorize brass either. IMHO the Navy strung along the nlca (and scored massive brownie points in the name of being indigenius) knowing fully well that they'd drop the ball in short order. Very cleverly put the blame squarely on the "inadequacy" of the platform.
The less said about army procurement, the better

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/18 ... 5247522220 ---> Important update regarding Netra MK2 AWACS project. @AdaniDefence (Alpha Defence Technologies) has been declared as the L1 entity for integration and completion of the project along with DRDO. Project taking shape now.

https://x.com/AjayshreeSamby3/status/18 ... 4628489268 ---> As declared by the company itself.

[Rakesh]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur.

https://x.com/Tanishq_bafila/status/1834889125809308018 ---> AEW&C MK-II: Based on the A-321 platform. A total of six aircraft to be made. Coverage: 300 degrees. Currently in the advanced phase of work. Timeline: 2027.

MMMA (Navy): Based on the C-295 platform. Timeline: 2028.

[sanman]

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840041309924647046 ---> Indian Air Force has released a RFI for the procurement of 6 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) along with associated ground segment from registered Indian vendors. The procurement of these systems is under DAP-2020.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840048847671963784 --->

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840041309924647046 ---> Indian Air Force has released a RFI for the procurement of 6 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) along with associated ground segment from registered Indian vendors. The procurement of these systems is under DAP-2020.

IAF’s “New hunt” for Six AEW&C
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... air-force/
29 Sept 2024

Image Credit: @Kuntal__biswas

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840041309924647046 ---> Indian Air Force has released a RFI for the procurement of 6 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) along with associated ground segment from registered Indian vendors. The procurement of these systems is under DAP-2020.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840293926005289174 ---> Decode:

1. Idea here is futuristic technology in era of AMCA etc (this is a long term goal).

2. No system in world offers 4D GaN based radar with 550 km range for 5m2. So this is tailor made for DRDO's 360 degree radar.

3. Eight hour mission puts A320/321 out of question.

[fanne]

Please someone tell me that this is indeed futuristic and not a diversion to not take Netra based awacs (as they meet none of the specs).

[drnayar]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840041309924647046 ---> Indian Air Force has released a RFI for the procurement of 6 Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) along with associated ground segment from registered Indian vendors. The procurement of these systems is under DAP-2020.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840293926005289174 ---> Decode:

1. Idea here is futuristic technology in era of AMCA etc (this is a long term goal).

2. No system in world offers 4D GaN based radar with 550 km range for 5m2. So this is tailor made for DRDO's 360 degree radar.

3. Eight hour mission puts A320/321 out of question.

is this possible with India's technological capability? .. or is it a case of brochuritis ?

[vera_k]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840293926005289174 ---> Decode:

1. Idea here is futuristic technology in era of AMCA etc (this is a long term goal).

2. No system in world offers 4D GaN based radar with 550 km range for 5m2. So this is tailor made for DRDO's 360 degree radar.

3. Eight hour mission puts A320/321 out of question.

Intended for C295 perhaps.

C295 AEW

It provides a very long airborne endurance of up to 11 hours.

[basant]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1840293926005289174 ---> Decode:

1. Idea here is futuristic technology in era of AMCA etc (this is a long term goal).

2. No system in world offers 4D GaN based radar with 550 km range for 5m2. So this is tailor made for DRDO's 360 degree radar.

3. Eight hour mission puts A320/321 out of question.

is this possible with India's technological capability? .. or is it a case of brochuritis ?

May not be directly relevant but Medium Power Radar (Arudhra) of IAF has a scalable architecture and is a 4D phased array radar with rotating and staring mode of operations with an instrumented range of 400 km and can detect 2sqm RCS targets as far as 300 Km with the altitude coverage from 100 meters to 30 Kms.

[srai]

Sounds like the IAF rather not have any AEW&C in reality … unless its in their fantasies only

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1842931538973126973 ---> Interesting .. One of the A-321 aircraft sent across to the Maldives to receive the Maldives President is among those recently acquired by DRDO and will be converted into a next-generation NETRA AWACS platform...

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1842892540472918072 ---> Maldives President Mohamed Muizzu and First Lady of Maldives, Sajidha Mohamed arrive at Delhi airport.

[Prem Kumar]

Meanwhile, Pakis inducted their ninth AEW Erieye aircraft in June this year!

IAF is busy navel-gazing even after the importance of AEW was made painfully obvious post-Balakot - 5 frigging years ago!

Rather than achieving an overmatch vis-a-vis that beggar nation, we are outmatched by them

[drnayar]

Meanwhile, Pakis inducted their ninth AEW Erieye aircraft in June this year!

IAF is busy navel-gazing even after the importance of AEW was made painfully obvious post-Balakot - 5 frigging years ago!

Rather than achieving an overmatch vis-a-vis that beggar nation, we are outmatched by them

those are literally gifts .. i think this came through creative IMF 'funding"

[Aditya_V]

and Pakis have lost 3 to Taliban attacks, Pakis till a few years ago were claiming Chinese AWACS were the best the greatest, then retired them cause they were no good, and these AEW cant talk to JF17 or J10, so the main threat is still Erieye with F16/AMRAAM combo.

I am equally frustrated by our slow pace of acquiring AWACS- we need 1500 fighters with assorted ordinance and Missiles Jammers, 25 AWACS plus many many items, but lets not self flagellate, today its clear that there many foreign players with power inside India to sabotage what is being done, there might be a million things Rajnath Singh must be facing, and he cant publish every achievement to let the foreign lobby know of the progress until it has a reached a stage where it cannot be stopped

[Prem Kumar]

1) It does not matter that they are gifts. Heck, all of Pakistan's economy is a gift by its 3.5 fathers. But their Erieyes are formidable, whether they are gifted or bought

2) Pakis got the replacements for the 3 destroyed by the Talibs. So, they have 9 AEWs in inventory now

So, yes. We are behind them, which is shameful considering that we add 1 Pakistan's GDP to our GDP each year

[mody]

Only 1 Saab AEW was destroyed by the paki talibs. Another one was badly damaged, but some reports claim that it was recovered after extensive repairs. That was a time when the pakis had only 5 such aircrafts. Now they have bought their 9th and retired all the Chinese junk that they had received. Worst case scenario, the pakis would be having 7 AEW aircrafts. This would allow them to have minimum 2 airborne at all times, in case of a conflict.

The latest requirements set forth by the IAF shows that the top brass has learnt nothing. The only aircraft that can fulfill the requirement would be a Airbus A-330, if these can be bought from the second hand market or Airbus might try to give a brand new A-350 developed exclusively for special customer IAF, with full funding by GOI.
The earlier proposal to buy A-330 based AWACS could not go through, because it was found to be too expensive.
The current order for 6 Netra MK-II based on the A-321s is also facing delays because the scope of work for converting the passenger planes for AEW has turned out to be much more involved and the costs are likely to increase as well.
In light of this, trying to go for even bigger platform, would mean that we would barely be able to afford half of what is needed.

A prudent approach would be order additional Netra MK-1A to increase the numbers and then once Netra MK-II come along, order additional Netra MKII or an upgraded version of the same. A-321 planes are available in plenty and an on station endurance time of 6 hours ain't bad. A 300 degree coverage is also reasonable. Additional sensors can be developed for 4D coverage if feasible.

[Kartik]

Only 1 Saab AEW was destroyed by the paki talibs. Another one was badly damaged, but some reports claim that it was recovered after extensive repairs. That was a time when the pakis had only 5 such aircrafts. Now they have bought their 9th and retired all the Chinese junk that they had received. Worst case scenario, the pakis would be having 7 AEW aircrafts. This would allow them to have minimum 2 airborne at all times, in case of a conflict.

The latest requirements set forth by the IAF shows that the top brass has learnt nothing. The only aircraft that can fulfill the requirement would be a Airbus A-330, if these can be bought from the second hand market or Airbus might try to give a brand new A-350 developed exclusively for special customer IAF, with full funding by GOI.
The earlier proposal to buy A-330 based AWACS could not go through, because it was found to be too expensive.
The current order for 6 Netra MK-II based on the A-321s is also facing delays because the scope of work for converting the passenger planes for AEW has turned out to be much more involved and the costs are likely to increase as well.
In light of this, trying to go for even bigger platform, would mean that we would barely be able to afford half of what is needed.

A prudent approach would be order additional Netra MK-1A to increase the numbers and then once Netra MK-II come along, order additional Netra MKII or an upgraded version of the same. A-321 planes are available in plenty and an on station endurance time of 6 hours ain't bad. A 300 degree coverage is also reasonable. Additional sensors can be developed for 4D coverage if feasible.

They are already looking to order 6 Netra Mk1A (basically Netra Mk1 with some small improvements) on the same EMB-145 platform. Discussions are ongoing between DRDO and Embraer for the airframes to be modified to fit the radar, EW and other mission equipment. This was informed by ACM AP Singh.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Aryan_warlord/status/1932349074910417209 ---> Six more @embraer based AEW&C platforms coming , given the ERJ145 is no longer in production these could be based on the E-Jet series . This is apart from the 6 to be based on the @Airbus A319. Also on the anvil, six more refuellers.