Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

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Aditya_V
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

maitya wrote: 09 Sep 2024 20:15
Rakesh wrote: 09 Sep 2024 19:38 I have lost touch with the Indian numerical system. What is the conversion of Rs 26,000 crore into USD?
INR26,000Cr for 240 engines == ~$13m/engine ...
Why oh why do we have to pay such an obscene amount, especially so, when we are haggling for an ask of around ~$10m/F414-INS6 engine (part of the ToAsT deal). More so, when F414 is at least 1.5 generations ahead of AL-31FP ... :(( :((
Hmmm,its like Boeing trying to put a F414 in an F-15.

Or Ford put its 1.0 Ecoboost engine From Ecosport in an Endevour, I guess size and class of Aircraft along with design, Compatibility with other parts does not matter. Just that if its from USA should command a premium matters
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by maitya »

Mort Walker wrote: 10 Sep 2024 07:48
maitya wrote: 09 Sep 2024 20:15
INR26,000Cr for 240 engines == ~$13m/engine ...
Why oh why do we have to pay such an obscene amount, especially so, when we are haggling for an ask of around ~$10m/F414-INS6 engine (part of the ToAsT deal). More so, when F414 is at least 1.5 generations ahead of AL-31FP ... :(( :((
Last I knew, the Su-30MKI won’t work with the F414.
Ofcourse ... also assuming you made that stmt in jest!!
The point being, why pay such high-amount for Lic mfg of a 3+ gen TF whist we are haggling for a much lower price-point (~30% lesser) for a true-blue 4+ Gen TF Lic mfg?

Could have understood if the IPR sharing etc is also part of the deal.
i.e. we are free from making any kind of part-replacement (of our choice of material as well as mfg tech, as long as the perf parameters of it are met or exceeded) without voiding the OEM-warranty of the entire engine etc.

But that doesn't seems to be the case - so what gives? :roll:
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by basant »

Why would higher gen mean higher cost? Besides, it has higher thrust and more weight too! :)
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

Something is going on there, which perhaps is confidential as it should be (and hopefully something good). The worst is that we have been blackmailed (only SU30 mKI seams to be working for IAF so far), or maybe Russia in tight spot needs higher amount to prioritize our engines.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Karan M »

Hopefully the cost per engine includes their support to prioritize and assist our desi Su30 Upgrade. The time frame is absurd otherwise for a mere 84 aircraft.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by maitya »

fanne-ji, Karan M-ji, this type of money only makes sense for a 4+ Gen TF with a TVC maybe - aka something that boasts min TWR of >9, ~1550+ deg C TeT and >27-28 OPR, and maybe even fluidic TVC etc.
Ofcourse these parameters are not the real benchmarks of a true-blue 4.5Gen TF etc, but here, looking at some of responses above, maybe such kind of characterization is required. :roll:

A behemoth that huffs-puffs via a 9-stage HPC (and a 3 stage LPC) to achieve 23OPR etc - and also its 0.5 etc BPR would mean, the dry-thrust ratings it actually achieves (should be classified) in Indian conditions, will be waaay below that what the shiny brochures would be claiming.

Summary is, this is just not in the league of TFs, that can demand that kind of a price.
In fact it's successor, AL-41F is not either ... these prices are realistic for Izdeliya-30 kind of a TF, where-in the technologies involved are actually 5+ Gen.

So, until and unless, we have been given a free hand wrt replacing the entire core (including the hot-section) with materials and manufacturing tech of our choice, without invalidating the warranty etc, this type of pricing makes no sense at all.

Don't want to make it a long post, so let me just say/claim this - given a free-hand, there are ample scope of "upgrading" it to AL-31F-MKI (you heard the nomenclature here, first) std, purely via already developed desi technology (from Kaveri and HTFE programs) and materials. :P
And only the threat of invalidating the product warranty by the OEM, constrains us from going ahead with such a program. :(( :((
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by SRajesh »

Maityji
Some meeting arranged on the sidelines of BRICS(one to one bt NaMo and Putin)
Will it be a big announcement or just a hidden pact who knows!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO: https://x.com/SpokespersonMoD/status/18 ... 0592589831 ---> Exclusive | From injury to innovation, meet @IAF_MCC's Su-30MKI pilot, Squadron Leader SS Bhatkare. Fueled by the vision of Aatmanirbhar Bharat, he has defied the odds to develop a cutting-edge, AI-driven aircraft inspection system. Discover how his pioneering work is enhancing safety for fellow aviators.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by sanman »

Rakesh
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1841052866523648412 ---> JUST IN | Hindustan Aeronautics Limited delivers first of the 240 AL-31FP aero engines of Su-30MKI to IAF under the new contract. Mr Saket Chaturvedi, CEO (MiG Complex) handed over the first aero engine for Su-30MKI fighter to Air Vice Marshal, K Harisankar of IAF. Mr R B Nagaraja, ADG AQA (Koraput) handed over the document to IAF. The contract for 240 AL-31FP aero engines for Su-30MKI aircraft was signed with HAL on 9 September 2024 and these engines would be delivered in eight years.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Wording is bit confusing 🫤

240 AL-31FP engine contract signed 9 Sept 2024
1st engine handed over in October 2024
Delivery in 8 years (assuming all 240 engines)
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by sanman »

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the Rafale thread...
Karan M wrote: 08 Oct 2024 17:11 In short the Flanker is a phenomenal platform once properly upgraded.
Monstrous Virupaksha Radar of Su-30MKI Upgrade
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... i-upgrade/
09 Oct 2024
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by sanman »

Hriday
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Hriday »

Rakesh wrote: 10 Oct 2024 23:40Remember Avenger 1 and 2 @ Balakot? The pair of Rambha pilots that put up a wall against the TFTA pilots of the Pakistan Air Force?

A combination of TVC + Jammers (SAP-514 and SAP-518) from the Su-30MKIs. Click on link below (from Sameer Joshi, a former IAF Mirage 2000 pilot)....

https://x.com/joe_sameer/status/1365541344991617025
Rakesh ji, some questions. Do you mean SU-30 used the SAP-14 escort jammer to counter F-16? I thought they were used only for the protection of a relatively large group of fighters. Also recently several members here commented about how having the large SAP-518 SPJ severely restricts the hard manoeuvering of SU-30 MKI. So most likely SU-30 evaded the missiles using the SAP-518 and standard-level manoeuvering?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Hriday wrote: 11 Oct 2024 17:57 Rakesh ji, some questions. Do you mean SU-30 used the SAP-14 escort jammer to counter F-16? I thought they were used only for the protection of a relatively large group of fighters. Also recently several members here commented about how having the large SAP-518 SPJ severely restricts the hard manoeuvering of SU-30 MKI. So most likely SU-30 evaded the missiles using the SAP-518 and standard-level manoeuvering?
Saar, I too have read that the weight of the SAP pods on the Su-30MKI does put strain on manoeuvering. But those AMRAAMs were jammed, along with the Rambha taking evasive manoeuvering to avoid getting hit. I don't know more than that.

KaranM is honestly the SME (Subject Matter Expert) on this topic. Paging him and he will respond...
Karan M wrote:...
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

IAF's "Super Sukhoi" Upgrade Program Awaits Final CCS Approval, First Upgraded SU-30MKI Expected by 2028
https://defence.in/threads/iafs-super-s ... 028.11174/
09 Nov 2024
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Upgrade timelines are too long. Only 84 airframes in 7 (R&D) + 15 years.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by fanne »

It is wrong on so many levels that it is not worth commenting. One would not know where to start.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/Defencematrix1/status/1854770250866200699 ---> Lucknow-based Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) is set to play an important role in the upgrade process of Sukhoi (Su-30) fighter jets of the Indian Air Force.

DETAILS:

->HAL Lucknow is set to play a major role in the Su-30 aircraft upgradation process. In the first phase, the nose part of Sukhoi will be made at HAL, Lucknow. After this, the UTTAM AESA radar developed by (DRDO) will be installed in these aircraft. The Defense Ministry is currently in the process of finalizing this plan.

->Su-30 aircraft are included in the IAF fleet as 4th-Gen jets. With the inclusion of radar developed by DRDO, their capabilities will increase to 4.5 Gen. The Indian Air Force has 259 Sukhoi aircraft in its fleet, which are deployed at various strategic locations in the country. In the first phase, 84 of these aircraft will be upgraded.

->HAL Lucknow has already been making accessories for the IAF helicopters. Now, it will also manufacture special parts of the Sukhoi jet. HAL however,has not officially said anything in this regard. But, it is believed that permission in this regard will be granted soon.

->BKT station being upgraded : Lucknow's Bakshi Ka Talab (BKT) Air Force Station is also being upgraded. There is a new runway, hangar, and radar installation in the process. It is believed that a squadron of Sukhoi aircraft could be deployed at the BKT station. This deployment will be extremely important from a strategic point of view.

->Brahmos missile to be manufactured in Lucknow: HAL Lucknow has plans to manufacture not only Sukhoi aircraft accessories but also the Naval version of Brahmos missiles. A new unit dedicated to this is being set up in this regard.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by drnayar »

Rakesh wrote: 09 Oct 2024 15:40 X-Post from the Rafale thread...
Karan M wrote: 08 Oct 2024 17:11 In short the Flanker is a phenomenal platform once properly upgraded.
Monstrous Virupaksha Radar of Su-30MKI Upgrade
https://alphadefense.in/index.php/2024/ ... i-upgrade/
09 Oct 2024
is this workable with same engine ? ..the power requirements not to mention cooling efficiencies would need to be much more.. read elsewhere.. liquid cooling ?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Aerospace company HAL to ready Nashik plant for production of Sukhoi Su-30MKI jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/h ... 2024-11-14
14 Nov 2024
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by srai »

Rakesh wrote: 19 Nov 2024 04:52 Aerospace company HAL to ready Nashik plant for production of Sukhoi Su-30MKI jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/h ... 2024-11-14
14 Nov 2024
Still only 12 new orders.

With 250+ airframes to MLU and fleet readiness, the IAF/MoD could have ordered 24-40 new airframes. In that way, IAF could allocate 24-40 aircrafts for Super upgrades at one go at a time (without operational impact) and be able to complete entire fleet modernization within a decade.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Aditya_V »

Right now IAF needs every Aircraft it needs, with GeF404 delay, and these are probably planned Aircraft delayed by the Ukraine war, so it's better to implement Super Sukhoi from.the ground up
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by srai »

^^^
Each airframe will likely be out for at least a year under the deep Super MLU modernization. It means the IAF can only allocate so many airframes for MLU at a time in order to keep their operational readiness with sanctioned 13 MKI squadrons.

This is why the IAF /HAL will take 15 years to upgrade only 84 airframes. If there were more airframes in reserve, then more MLU/year.

Basically, if 25/year MLU can be done then the whole fleet can be done around a decade.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by TVenky »

srai wrote: 19 Nov 2024 13:02 ^^^
Each airframe will likely be out for at least a year under the deep Super MLU modernization. It means the IAF can only allocate so many airframes for MLU at a time in order to keep their operational readiness with sanctioned 13 MKI squadrons.

This is why the IAF /HAL will take 15 years to upgrade only 84 airframes. If there were more airframes in reserve, then more MLU/year.

Basically, if 25/year MLU can be done then the whole fleet can be done around a decade.
I think 15 years for just 84 aircrafts is lethargic schedule.
Batch of aircrafts upgraded during first 5 years will most likely be outdated by start of 12th/13th year.

I am not sure whether the schedule could be accelerated by working on a war-lik-mode e.g 3-shift/day. Further, accelerate it by moving XX% of the job to a private player targeting at least 25/year MLU
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by TVenky »

srai wrote: 19 Nov 2024 10:59
Rakesh wrote: 19 Nov 2024 04:52 Aerospace company HAL to ready Nashik plant for production of Sukhoi Su-30MKI jets
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/h ... 2024-11-14
14 Nov 2024
Still only 12 new orders.

With 250+ airframes to MLU and fleet readiness, the IAF/MoD could have ordered 24-40 new airframes. In that way, IAF could allocate 24-40 aircrafts for Super upgrades at one go at a time (without operational impact) and be able to complete entire fleet modernization within a decade.
Why not wish for another 2-3 squadrons exclusively for EW.. a shudDesi SU30EW which is at least .5G ahead. Some of this could be adapted &/ configured for naval ops too..
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments thread...
Rakesh wrote: 03 Dec 2024 20:26 https://x.com/livefist/status/1863916739886530776 ---> Fresh in from the Indian MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council:
https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1864192864810328416 ---> Now, the entire fleet of 260 Su-30MKIs will receive this. It consists of two pods. It features active phased array antennas. Supports ultra wide band DRFM and a wide variety of sophisticated jam techniques. Capable of handling multiple emitters simultaneously.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

X-Post from the Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments thread...
Rakesh wrote: 03 Dec 2024 20:26 https://x.com/livefist/status/1863916739886530776 ---> Fresh in from the Indian MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council:
https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1864188158289535281 ---> IAF has already contracted for 129 DR-118 Dhruti RWR sets for Su-30MKIs back in 2023. Yesterday's clearance covers the rest of the Su-30MKI fleet. DR-118 is a digital ultra wideband RWR capable of interception and identification of LPI signals in a dense RF environment.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Hriday
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Hriday »

Rakesh wrote: 05 Dec 2024 08:46 X-Post from the Military Acquisitions, Partnerships & Developments thread...
Rakesh wrote: 03 Dec 2024 20:26 https://x.com/livefist/status/1863916739886530776 ---> Fresh in from the Indian MoD’s Defence Acquisition Council:
https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1864192864810328416 ---> Now, the entire fleet of 260 Su-30MKIs will receive this. It consists of two pods. It features active phased array antennas. Supports ultra wide band DRFM and a wide variety of sophisticated jam techniques. Capable of handling multiple emitters simultaneously.
So, the entire SU-30 fleet will be fitted with this new indigenous wing tip jammer. But, wing tip jammers will affect hard manoeuvring. One special feature of SU-30 MKI is super manoeuvrability assisted by the 3D thrust vectoring engine. So the design philosophy went wrong?
It is said that no space is available inside SU-30 to add an integrated jamming system. From a common man's point of view, it is hard to believe as even a relatively tiny-looking Rafale has an integrated EW.
Also, there is a talk of cross-eye jamming techniques which are also used by SU-35. Does the designers found some merits in the cross-eye jamming? Or the SU-30 required much more power for jammer to compensate it's large RCS, thus requiring external pod to house more transmitter elements?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by VishnuS »

Hriday wrote: 05 Dec 2024 13:48So, the entire SU-30 fleet will be fitted with this new indigenous wing tip jammer. But, wing tip jammers will affect hard manoeuvring.
Only with SAP 518 wingtip pods! They're heavy, bulky and power hungry PODs, Su 30 with SAP 14 (Centre Pylon) and 2 SAP 510 (Wing Tips) convert it into a bomb truck with poor manoeuvrability.

Coming to space in the Flanker, yes it had very thirsty engines in the early days so, every cubic inch was filled with fuel, this includes the tails too (Su 27 for sure, not 100% sure about our variant) space can be made, but that comes at a huge redesign and other issues from Russia, in other words it's not worth the effort!
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

FINALLY!!!

₹13,500 crore works out to US $1,590,935,448.65 as per today's conversion rate. This contract works out to US $125+ million per aircraft. Someone please correct my math if I am wrong.

https://x.com/livefist/status/1867221080110403668 ---> BREAKING: Indian MoD signs contract with HAL for procurement of 12 Su-30MKI aircraft worth ₹13,500 crore. This dozen is to replace attrition over the years.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Ministry of Defence signs contract with HAL for procurement of 12 Su-30MKI aircraft
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2083948
12 Dec 2024
The aircraft would have an indigenous content of 62.6%, enhanced due to indiginisation of many components to be manufactured by Indian defence industry.
CCS clears Rs 20,000 crore Make in India projects for Su-30 fighter jets, 100 K-9 howitzers
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 212193209/
12 Dec 2024
The two projects were cleared on Thursday by the CCS and the contract for the Su-30-MKI jets has already been inked, defence sources informed ANI.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

Rakesh wrote: 12 Dec 2024 22:35 CCS clears Rs 20,000 crore Make in India projects for Su-30 fighter jets, 100 K-9 howitzers
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 212193209/
12 Dec 2024
The two projects were cleared on Thursday by the CCS and the contract for the Su-30-MKI jets has already been inked, defence sources informed ANI.
https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1867222111707918729 ---> MoD signed a ₹13,500 crore deal with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) to procure 12 Su-30MKI fighter jets. These aircraft will feature 62.6% domestic content, with key components to be manufactured by the Indian defence industry. This marks another milestone in India’s journey towards self reliance, boosting the capabilities of our armed forces.

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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by pravula »

Does anyone know how that 62.6% was calculated? Value? SKU count? Weight?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by Rakesh »

pravula wrote: 12 Dec 2024 23:53 Does anyone know how that 62.6% was calculated? Value? SKU count? Weight?
Components.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by sanman »



Google summary of the video:

The Indian Air Force has received approval for 12 upgraded Su-30MKI fighter jets.
These jets will replace the 12 Su-30MKIs that have been lost in crashes.
One of the 12 jets will be used as a test bed for new weapons and sensors developed by DRDO and HAL.
The cost of these jets is high due to the limited number of units and the integration of new technologies.
The Indian Air Force may order more Su-30MKIs in the future.
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by srai »

^^^

What didn’t the IAF order more … since look at how long it has taken?
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Re: Su-30MKI: News and Discussion - 24 July 2021

Post by ashthor »

Why cant they order 2-3 more...can be used as test beds and future attritions.
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