VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

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Manish_P
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Cain Marko wrote: 12 Oct 2024 07:16 ...
All of this is fine and can be argued until kingdom come, but my main point, academic as it might be, was - might it be a better idea to take a look at an mkized pakfa instead of the rafale?
..
That was probably the thinking of the IAF and the GoI when we pulled out of the FGFA joint development project. Simply buy a more mature low-RCS, heavy but agile bruiser with a level of commonality with the preceding type and which would show more acceptance of indigenous integrations. Maybe the Ukraine war has delayed the development/funding.

For one it is a natural successor to the Su 30 type. Second it is a backup to the AMCA (if it gets delayed). Third it also gives us flexibility (MKI-sation) which the Rafale just doesn't give and also a hedge if it (or it's components) gets sanctioned.

IMVHO we will purchase it in a decade or so. Maybe not in the hundreds. But 2-3 squadrons at least.
The IAF will call it the third tip of the Trishul with the Rafale and the AMCA being the other two.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Karan M »

The problem is very simply the Govt will not give funds for both AMCA and the PAK-FA MKI. IAF will be for the latter. They even opposed AMCA funding per reports thinking it would eat into the MRFA budget.

The IAF will end up taking the PAK FA and trying to squeeze in AMCA tech into a Russian airframe with all sorts of teething and interface issues.

The Russians are behind now in avionics and weapons systems. The current war might wake them up but their avionics systems are at least a generation behind even ours in some respects and the interface issues caused by using their proprietary Russian designs, non commercial chips and other myriad issues, will be legend.

This is why IAF went for Rafale. Easy, ready, available off the shelf.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

Karan M wrote: 12 Oct 2024 10:46 ...
The IAF will end up taking the PAK FA and trying to squeeze in AMCA tech into a Russian airframe with all sorts of teething and interface issues.
...
Precisely. The import lobbies will also be happy. The morsels may not be as much as the good old times. But in these days of inflation every little bit helps.

And even more importantly we still need to maintain our good relations with Russia and keep her happy. Not just for sentimental reasons but also for the fact that she is our VETO in the security council. And we are going to need a lot of her natural minerals and ores wealth as we march towards being a developed nation. But all that is OT for this thread.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Karan M wrote: 12 Oct 2024 10:46 The problem is very simply the Govt will not give funds for both AMCA and the PAK-FA MKI. IAF will be for the latter. They even opposed AMCA funding per reports thinking it would eat into the MRFA budget.

The IAF will end up taking the PAK FA and trying to squeeze in AMCA tech into a Russian airframe with all sorts of teething and interface issues.

The Russians are behind now in avionics and weapons systems. The current war might wake them up but their avionics systems are at least a generation behind even ours in some respects and the interface issues caused by using their proprietary Russian designs, non commercial chips and other myriad issues, will be legend.

This is why IAF went for Rafale. Easy, ready, available off the shelf.
Repetition of the 80s saga of the acquisition of the Mirage 2000 and the MiG-29. We are back again in the same hole. We never seem to learn.

Su-57E will likely take the kit from the Super Sukhoi upgrade and convert into a Su-57MKI. Teething & Interface issues guaranteed. Significant downtime guaranteed. And a clueless civilian populace, also guaranteed. But hey, it is phoren maal. So all will be well.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by drnayar »

I, for one, think the Su 30 is the last Russian fighter India would ever buy.
Rafale is the last western fighter India would buy.

Future would be collaborations on niche technologies to be built into Indian airframes
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

The state of affairs seems to be:
IAF: We don't care about indigenous capability, we will only fight with bright shiny toys
DRDO: We don't care, we'll only build smallest, lightest, greatest, latest.
BABU: we don't care, everything should be in triplicate with baksheesh
NETA: We don't care, so long as we can play vote bank politics.

Me: Forget local flying machines, desh will be lucky to survive a 2 front war beyond 2 weeks.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Sumeet »

Cain Marko wrote: 13 Oct 2024 05:02 The state of affairs seems to be:
IAF: We don't care about indigenous capability, we will only fight with bright shiny toys
DRDO: We don't care, we'll only build smallest, lightest, greatest, latest.
BABU: we don't care, everything should be in triplicate with baksheesh
NETA: We don't care, so long as we can play vote bank politics.

Me: Forget local flying machines, desh will be lucky to survive a 2 front war beyond 2 weeks.
CM ji

Very nice post. This should be printed on a banner or a flag stuck to a high flying object and flown around during Republic day 2025 parade. It's our misfortune that even PM Modi ji (including Amit Shah and Doval) is not able to see along these lines. He is a seasoned politician, more devoted to our nation than most of us still .... They have their own areas of strength so can't complaint too much as well.

I wonder what would have been state of our defence preparedness and plans if Manohar Parrikar ji was still alive today. Opposition is even a bigger joke; they wouldn't bother two cents about all these topics. Instead they can twist any of these suggestions to suit their agenda to just bring down PM Modi's govt even at expense of national security.

We must thank our stars that TSP is really at brink of collapse, China is occupied with other pressing concerns and being where TSP is they are unable to use them against us for sometime to come. Hence we have some breathing room. The day we don't have luxury of time, no longer a Russian option to pursue, cannot avail of US equipment and our indigenous effort not matching upto IAF day dream specs, the French will squeeze us to recover all cost and much more for F5 & Neuron project.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by sanman »

Sumeet
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Sumeet »

He is probably reading BRF as well :)

I am glad he is taking feedback. Again he has made some points I disagree with.
Last edited by Sumeet on 13 Oct 2024 09:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Sumeet »

Sumeet wrote: 13 Oct 2024 07:52 He is probably reading BRF as well :)

I am glad he is taking feedback. Again he has made some points I disagree with.
He makes a point about upgrading existing fighter comparable to upgrading an iPhone 11 (whether its upgradable to 5G ?). He makes this to corroborate a point that existing Rafale cannot be upgraded to F5 standards to have a meaningful partnership with Neuron based UCAV due to some new data link & communication requirements.

This is very wrong analogy (Phone and a Fighter).

If Apple really wanted they could have planned a product road map where iPhone 11 can be upgraded to 5G which from a business point of view will not at all be a smart decision, perhaps costly endeavor to begin with or there could be multiple other reasons why Apple didn't do it.

Alpha defense guy thinks that changes/uprgades to existing aircraft is software change. He is wrong. During upgrade path entire hardware/software combo are changed. I am surprised he does not know this.

On the other hand fighters and their subsystems are not designed like this. Raytheon is ready to upgrade not only Super Hornet (E/F) but F/A-18 C/D fighters with GaN array for APG-79V(4) radar. Boeing is going to cooperate if USN and its other customers are ready to pay.

Gripen has a new radar based on GaN array, and SAAB has clear plan to offer it as retrofit to customers Gripen C/D customers.

Once Thales RBE XG becomes reality there is no reason why existing Rafale fighters in French and other forces wouldn't get that upgrade. If Thales and Dassault are foolish to let go of big revenue chunk in this way, then God bless their business acumen.

On the other hand Apple has no business incentive for it to build iPhone 11 to become 5G capable. Also, phones are built every year and we don't have new versions of fighters getting rolled out every year. Its a wrong analogy to begin with.

Alpha defense guy has unknowingly stepped on a mine field of possibilities whose length and breadth he didn't gauge in advance. So now the guy is trying to put bandage to patch loop holes in his earlier arguments and is opening new ones in the process.

Second Rafale F5 can work as an independent aircraft by itself. It will not be completely handicapped without future Neuron based UCAV. UCAV option can be exercised in certain scenarios where it makes sense. So that will be available to F5 customers.

I think at this point he should make a video and admit some mistakes, make amends and move on to other topics.

See this video (way more sensible -- but it's in Hindi):

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Sumeet »

Lastly, we can buy some GaN based upgraded Phalcon AWACS from Elta. They will be available sooner than both Rafale F5 and Super Sukhoi with Virupaksha.
https://www.iai.co.il/defense/air/speci ... n-aircraft
Airborne Early Warning & Control Aircraft (AEW&C)
The AEW&C aircraft, with its integrated Sensor Suite, offers exceptional air defense and air battle management, with accurate and reliable high-altitude long-range continuous 360° surveillance of all airborne and maritime threats. Current AEW&C aircraft are equipped with the latest generation of Gallium Nitride (GaN) AESA Radar integrated with other advanced sensors and intelligence systems.
This will help us utilize Rafale RBE-2 GaAs AESA + Meteor BVRAAM & Su-30MKI + IDerby ER/Astra Mk2 combos to the max.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Cain Marko wrote: 13 Oct 2024 05:02 The state of affairs seems to be:
IAF: We don't care about indigenous capability, we will only fight with bright shiny toys
DRDO: We don't care, we'll only build smallest, lightest, greatest, latest.
BABU: we don't care, everything should be in triplicate with baksheesh
NETA: We don't care, so long as we can play vote bank politics.

Me: Forget local flying machines, desh will be lucky to survive a 2 front war beyond 2 weeks.
That is very unfair to the IAF. As things stand, they are the ones having contracted for 83 Tejas Mk1As, the deliveries of which were to be begin in March 2024 with 12 being delivered during the calendar year. As we speak, not a single one has been delivered so far, even though the blame isn't on HAL for the F-404 delays. The IAF is also pushing for 97 more Tejas Mk1As, for a total of 220 Tejas Mk1/Mk1As. They're doing their best to get it operationalized and into frontline service at forward air bases.

They can't do anything about the Tejas Mk2 when it was the MoD that decided that without getting a F-414 local manufacture deal there could be no AoN. As things stand, they need everything they can get, but are getting nothing. Neither from HAL nor from any MRFA that this Govt. even in it's third term is most likely not going to be sign.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Kartik wrote: 14 Oct 2024 10:24
Cain Marko wrote: 13 Oct 2024 05:02 The state of affairs seems to be:
IAF: We don't care about indigenous capability, we will only fight with bright shiny toys
DRDO: We don't care, we'll only build smallest, lightest, greatest, latest.
BABU: we don't care, everything should be in triplicate with baksheesh
NETA: We don't care, so long as we can play vote bank politics.

Me: Forget local flying machines, desh will be lucky to survive a 2 front war beyond 2 weeks.
That is very unfair to the IAF. As things stand, they are the ones having contracted for 83 Tejas Mk1As, the deliveries of which were to be begin in March 2024 with 12 being delivered during the calendar year. As we speak, not a single one has been delivered so far, even though the blame isn't on HAL for the F-404 delays. The IAF is also pushing for 97 more Tejas Mk1As, for a total of 220 Tejas Mk1/Mk1As. They're doing their best to get it operationalized and into frontline service at forward air bases.

They can't do anything about the Tejas Mk2 when it was the MoD that decided that without getting a F-414 local manufacture deal there could be no AoN. As things stand, they need everything they can get, but are getting nothing. Neither from HAL nor from any MRFA that this Govt. even in it's third term is most likely not going to be sign.
Yeah definitely add the production agency to the above mix.
Nevertheless, the iaf has hardly been visionary when it comes to local products.
It's not merely the tejas, and God knows that there were issues there too. For ex. Mk1s were all too readily dismissed as soon as they were brought out. Getting a few extra sqds foc std. would've certainly helped today when they're still clinging on to mig21s.. instead of ramping up production, they throttled it with an anaemic order and changing ssqrs to the mk1a! This was a massive let down, complete ******!
There are other issues with the iaf as well... Why were additional netras not pursued, now they have fewer aew than tsp. Wtf was this idea of combining aew and ifr specs on one bird? Why the long wait for mki upgrade specs? Why the meager order for Astra when you're ordering r27 sarhs out the wazoo? No plan b. 3 legged cheetah... The list goes on. The further back we go, the worse it gets. First demand unobtainium and then whine that they don't have numbers.
Last edited by Cain Marko on 14 Oct 2024 12:53, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Cain Marko »

Sumeet wrote: 13 Oct 2024 06:48
CM ji

Very nice post. This should be printed on a banner or a flag stuck to a high flying object and flown around during Republic day 2025 parade. It's our misfortune that even PM Modi ji (including Amit Shah and Doval) is not able to see along these lines. He is a seasoned politician, more devoted to our nation than most of us still .... They have their own areas of strength so can't complaint too much as well.

I wonder what would have been state of our defence preparedness and plans if Manohar Parrikar ji was still alive today. Opposition is even a bigger joke; they wouldn't bother two cents about all these topics. Instead they can twist any of these suggestions to suit their agenda to just bring down PM Modi's govt even at expense of national security.

We must thank our stars that TSP is really at brink of collapse, China is occupied with other pressing concerns and being where TSP is they are unable to use them against us for sometime to come. Hence we have some breathing room. The day we don't have luxury of time, no longer a Russian option to pursue, cannot avail of US equipment and our indigenous effort not matching upto IAF day dream specs, the French will squeeze us to recover all cost and much more for F5 & Neuron project.
Thanks Sumeetji. The less said about the opposition, the better. They need a bit of technocrat and strategically sound person to manage defence. Rajnath doesn't cut it. Maybe gadkari? The only thing saving the emperor is the fact that nobody really wants an all out war at this point, it makes zero sense for China to go this route because it will lose all its gains vs the West. Modis calculation seems to be one of maintaining strategic status quo based on economic partnership and trade volume in a global economy. Not a great idea on geopolitics IMHO.
The only solace has been the 36 rafale and 5 x s400. And thank heavens for the development of the layered ADS plus strategic force.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

dinesh_kimar wrote: 11 Oct 2024 23:07

They bought 80 Mig-23 interceptors on emergency basis as a knee-jerk reaction. The type had failed in Lebanon in 1982, against Israeli F-16 jets, and was an older, unsophisticated aircraft, which fielded AA-3 missiles.
No, they only bought 2 squadrons of MiG-23MF as interceptors. The remaining were MiG-23BN strike fighters.
French Mirage was excellent, almost equivalent to an F-16. No geo political bear hug, but high sticker price. This was selected and first examples were delivered from 1983 onwards, for a total of 40 aircraft.

In 1987, the IAF had to decide on a repeat order, for maybe 40-60 aircraft.

Here, the Soviets, eager to have India under their influence, offered 60 Mig-29, making India first export customer. It could counter the F-16, was fairly sophisticated, and Soviet offered generous credit clauses, full MRO incl. engine assembly and overhaul, pyt agreed in Indian cash ( rupee -rouble trade) and kind ( incl. fruits). The balance of payments crisis was looming, and this route was selected. It was cheaper to purchase than Mirage-2000 and could genuinely counter the F-16 jets.

If I had been an IAF planner in the 1980s, I would probably have taken the same decision.

By 1993, it became clear that Mirage 2000 was more reliable,had more time on station, carefree handling, better pilot training facilities incl.simulators, etc.

Mig -29, though High performance, was limited for air interception duties, could not be used as Ground attack or fighter bomber. The engines had much shorter life,etc.

But the Mirage was always going to be costly, so it remained in small nos. as a high tech fighter. (Tip of the spear).
The Mirage-2000 purchase of 40 fighters was supposed to be followed by a much larger license assembly of nearly 120 at HAL. However, USSR suddenly offered the MiG-29 and after evaluations it was considered a valid counter to the F-16. Of course the real story of how poor the first years of the MiG-29 in IAF service is lost in your narrative.

Dozens upon dozens of engines were pulled out of service prematurely, due to failures. They weren't even coming close to the MTBF numbers that were advertised to the IAF.

Meanwhile the Mirages were far more sophisticated in most ways, including maintenance and health monitoring. It was not a surprise that the 2 Mirage squadrons ended up becoming the IAF's premier fighter squadrons over the rugged but unreliable and short ranged MiG-29s.

The IAF was not at all happy with the MiG-29s in those days. Which is why it let go of Russian offers for many more MiG-29s that were basically just pulled out of VVS service. Nor did it ever pursue license manufacturing them at HAL. Nor was it ever interested in any variant of the MiG-29 that the MiG Bureau offered versus the Su-30 that the Sukhoi Bureau offered.

But what the MiG-29 did do successfully is hamper with the Mirage-2000 assembly plan. Had those progressed as originally envisaged, the IAF would've had nearly 160 Mirage-2000s through the 1990s and 2000s. MRCA wouldn't have been needed nor the expensive Mirage-2000I upgrade since the type could've been upgraded by us pretty much on our own with some Dassault support.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

Given our Forex condition in those days, we could not afford 160 M 2000, that became viable only around year 2000, when Tehelka struck and created the MMRCA fiasco.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Sumeet wrote: 13 Oct 2024 09:55 I am surprised he does not know this.
He is peddling someone's agenda. It will become clearer in the future, whose agenda it is.

By his logic, even the upcoming Tejas Mk1A will be rendered obsolete by the 2030s...because the PLAAF will be fielding GaN radars on its fighters. But he is inconspicuously silent on that fact.
Sumeet wrote: 13 Oct 2024 09:55Once Thales RBE XG becomes reality there is no reason why existing Rafale fighters in French and other forces wouldn't get that upgrade. If Thales and Dassault are foolish to let go of big revenue chunk in this way, then God bless their business acumen.
Yes, obviously the French will upgrade their older and viable Rafale fighters to the latest standard. The incoming F4 variant is a mixture of new-build aircraft and existing in-service aircraft. The French are masters at this game, just like everyone else who is in the military aviation industry.

This claim of his, in not stemming from ignorance.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Seek & Destroy - The Edge Rafales Give The IAF; Agility, Precision & Ability To Switch Roles In Air



Rafale — Couldn't Have Asked For A Better Weapon Platform To Deliver Decisive Punch: AOC AFS Hasimara

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

We all know the M-2000 has shown very good Maintenance and IAF loved but it was not perfect

1. In those days its acquisition cost was very high, in comparison terms more than what a Rafale is today, we could not afford 160 in the 80's and 90's.
2. In A2A environment its R-530D missiles and Matra Magic 1 and Mantra Magic 2 were lacking, In the 90's IAF without French approval integrated R-73 missiles on them.
3. IAF had to a lot of Jugaad inspire of French protests to get Cheaper Israeli LGB's on them
4. During Kargil it was the IAF Mig-29's which kept the PAF F-16's at bay.

I am not criticizing the M-2000, the IAF loved them but it was not as if the rest of fleet was Russian Junk, even today I see no point in 114 Rafales or any western 4.5 Gen aircraft at this point, what we need probably order 26 Naval Rafale +18 Airforce variant Extra. Double down on LCA MK1A, Mk2, ORCA, TEDBF, Local Jet engine , AMCA at the same time. Atleast then 10-15years down the line we can solve our problems.

But unfortunately large sections of the populations want Katakat and hand over power to the DIsasters.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by maitya »

^^^^ I think, the crux of the issue is wrt immediate disparity wrt fielded stealth-capability wrt our neighbours (with whom we have fought multiple wars), in the 2030-35 time-frame.
The issue wrt falling sqn numbers is a long-term issue and there are several programs currently in progress (MK2) or even currently-in-proposal-stage (MRFA), to mitigate it. Either way, mitigating or not mitigating this long-term issue of falling sqn numbers, has no bearing on the short-term stealth-capability parity issue.

Yes, AMCA would have been the mitigating factor, but it won't be available in 2030-35 time-frame, so a foreign solution (knee-jerk one, aren't we/IAF masters of that :roll: ) is required.
And, neither can Rafale (via MRFA) mitigate this disparity, despite all these wink-wink nudge-nudge comments all around. A 5th Gen platform will trump a 4.5 gen, eventually - more-so, when faced with such atrocious levels of numerical disparity between them.
That's the price to be paid, for vacillating to fund it, by approx 4-5 years - all for some mythical private-sector mfg capability.
(IIRC PDR completion was in 2015-16, whilst approval to proceed was in 2024 - even now the funding is limited to prototype-dev etc and, the all important, JV for a suitable Powerplant remains undecided)

So it boils down to another emergency-purchase (sigh!!) of either Su-57 or F-35 - being emergency purchase etc, it shall be limited to 2 sqns max.
Hopefully by now, you may have noticed, this scenario is an exact copy of M2K (or MiG-29) purchase of the late 80s - then it was to counter the latest-and-the-greatest F-16s, and now it's the J-20!!
(neither latest and not certainly the greatest, but still a fielded stealth platform, nevertheless)

But the important difference between then and now, is that we already have a successor program (AMCA) to this emergency-purchased stealth platform now, unlike nothing as such available back then.
So, there's no need of creating any MKI variant of Su-57 (or F-35, will not be permitted anyway) etc, nor is there any use case of domestically producing them (due to the on-off and limited quantity, nature of purchase).
It will have to be of direct import nature etc - maybe some MRO facility can be thrown in as a deal sweetener. :roll:
MoD can as well coin a "strategic capacity building" type of a tongue-twister gibberish, and soothe a few (very few) ruffled feathers. After all, there's no other import-pasand society than ours. :evil:

Of course, the most important question remains - even if that's what needs to be done, what exactly is the practical solution. I doubt F-35s will be made available and Su-57s are not exactly the stealth platforms that they have been advertised to be - but then again, neither are the J-20s (the principal adversary).

So IMVHO, another emergency procurement is inevitable - will be uber costly yes, and thus limiting the numbers (to say max 2 Sqns), and the funds for it may have to partially come from the MRFA budget, limiting that number* as well.
Question remains, what can we negotiate in exchange - for Su-57 it will have to be full-ToT (whatever that means) for Izdeliya-30. No idea what could it be for the F-35s (if at all, made available, in the first place).

=====================================================
* Assuming Rafale is the MRFA, betw whosoever said that 100 platform vol is an absolute must for any domestic production-line setup - OEM reps ofcourse will, it's their job afterall.
The price of Rafale (M) tells us, that domestic-ToT-based-production of such platforms unit-prices will not/can't be cheap - so nothing much to loose there as well.
Something like 57+26 (M) = 83 is also a good number for 10-12/year production rate - it can be increased, if OEM decides to shift some of other customers production vol to it. If not, the production-line can easily be transformed into a MRO facility.

And if Safran gets the AMCA TF jv, then a joint-domestic-production setup of the M88s (and the AMCA TF) can always be envisaged.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Aditya_V wrote: 15 Oct 2024 11:34 Double down on LCA MK1A, Mk2, ORCA, TEDBF, Local Jet engine, AMCA at the same time. At least then 10-15years down the line we can solve our problems.
To measure any progress on the doubling down listed above - especially the engine - will take a decade. Barring the Mk1A, everything else (Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA and even the ORCA) will require a turbofan more powerful than the output of the F404. Every future and successful military aviation program in India rests on a proven and local turbofan. But we are content with assembling someone else’s turbofan. And thus these programs - just like with the Mk1A at the moment - will suffer.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by fanne »

The counter to stealth is not another stealth plate form ( although it gives you the same advantage as your foe and perhaps creates a deterrence). There is no known counter, though alleged that an Air Force with parity can track these stealthy planes though at considerable disadvantage, making it almost meaningless in for combat. Other capabilities like bombing bases continuously (through missiles), to deny these planes facility to operate can be other viable option and we may posses it now.

Regardless some anti stealth tech talked are 1) sophisticated radar (read haas or gaan aesa of very high powered ground based radar (s400), bi static radars, sophisticated ew sniffers, data processing, electro optical devices (the weather is always very clear in Tibet plateau). And then other means like missile barrages (very limited airspace in Tibet to operate them), our own stealth planes, etc.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Manish_P »

fanne wrote: 15 Oct 2024 19:03 ...There is no known counter, though alleged that an Air Force with parity can track these stealthy planes though at considerable disadvantage, making it almost meaningless in for combat...
+1

Stealth is not invisibility (and certainly not invincibility). It means the range/time of detection is shorter and tracking thereafter is more difficult. So the low RCS platforms are more probable to get the First-see, First-shoot, First-kill chance.

More the number and type of detection platforms (like air and ground based radars) and the more powerful/sensitive they are, the lesser will be the survivability (invisibility) of the low observable platforms

We need lot more (and more powerful) AEWACs and ground based radars backed by networked AADs
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Aditya_V »

Rakesh wrote: 15 Oct 2024 17:42 [
To measure any progress on the doubling down listed above - especially the engine - will take a decade. Barring the Mk1A, everything else (Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA and even the ORCA) will require a turbofan more powerful than the output of the F404. Every future and successful military aviation program in India rests on a proven and local turbofan. But we are content with assembling someone else’s turbofan. And thus these programs - just like with the Mk1A at the moment - will suffer.
Absolutely Correct, but today like in the past if we do not invest in Metallurgy Plants, Stocking of critical Raw Materials, Ground Test beds, Passenger Transport Aircraft Test beds, Fighter Test beds etc.. other wise 15 yrs down the line we will still be complaining.

We needed Prithvi's before Agni 1-2-3-45, and various other Missiles, we need to go through the Iterations to reach proficiency in Jet engines.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Super Rafale: शाही बॉडीगार्ड | आसमान का सुरक्षा कवच, भारत का दिखेगा दम | फ्रांस बना रहा राफेल F-5

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Click on the link below....

https://x.com/wartrophy_414/status/1847163276695846967 ---> IAF Rafale pilots TARGO-II HMDS. Looks majestic.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/BEL_CorpCom/status/1859598005818515965 ---> BEL has received a "Special Jury Supplier Award" from @thalesgroup in recognition of its contributions to the offset & global supplies project of Thales.

https://x.com/BEL_CorpCom/status/1859599151605993499 ---> As part of the offset commitments under the Rafale India contract and in alignment with the Make in India policy, BEL is proud to manufacture TR (Transmit/Receive) modules for the RBE 2 radar on the Rafale fighter aircraft.

Image

Image
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Article was originally in French. Translated via Google Translate.

Safran hopes to launch the T-REX project to equip the Rafale F5 with a much more powerful engine
https://www.opex360.com/2024/11/28/safr ... puissante/
28 Nov 2024

Having anticipated the fact that the new generation fighter [NGF – New Generation Fighter] from the "Future Air Combat System" [SCAF] program, conducted in cooperation with Germany and Spain, would need a much more powerful engine than that of the Rafale, the French Armament Agency [DGA] had entrusted Safran with the task of conducting the Turenne study in 2015. The challenge was to develop an "innovative turbine concept" at high pressures, with more efficient materials. But it was also a question of maintaining, or even further developing the manufacturer's skills.

Will this work be used for the Rafale F5, the development of which was recently launched, along with that of the combat drone [UCAV] which will accompany it?

As a reminder, this device will be equipped with an "impressive" number of new capabilities, to the point that it should be "very different" compared to its predecessors. Given that it will have computing power allowing it to process hundreds of thousands of pieces of information and that it will probably be heavier, the question of equipping it with a new engine arises.

However, while the Military Programming Law [LPM] 2024-30 provided for the development of this Rafale F5 and the UCAV that will be associated with it, it ignored the financing of new engines that could replace the current M88s. In addition, the delay in the SCAF program risks causing Safran to lose know-how. At least, this is what the CEO of Safran Electronics & Defense, Franck Saudo, explained during a hearing on the "war economy" at the National Assembly on November 27.

"The imperative for both Safran and the country is to maintain the competence of complete engine manufacturer. It is a major issue of sovereignty. This requires maintaining the skills and developing the technologies necessary to maintain our rank in the field of aircraft engines for weapons. In this regard, the fact that the SCAF program is delayed creates a distance that endangers the maintenance of our skills. And therefore, it is absolutely imperative, without waiting for the SCAF, to flex our muscles, in the professional sense of the term, on such technologies," Mr. Saudo thus developed, in response to a question posed by the deputy Frank Giletti.

Still according to the CEO of Safran Electronics & Defense, if the LPM 2024-30 says nothing about the Rafale F5's engine, it is because it was developed at a time when it was expected that the SCAF would take over more quickly, thus making it possible to maintain the know-how of his group. However, SCAF or not, the F5 standard would still have needed new engines.

Moreover, this topic is already old… At the beginning of the 2010s, at the beginning of the discussions on the sale of Rafale to the United Arab Emirates, there was talk of increasing the power of the M88 reactor from 75 kN to 81 kN in order to meet the needs expressed by the Emirati side. The M-88-X [then M-88-9] project was launched for this purpose. Then, in 2016, Philippe Petitcolin, then CEO of Safran, felt that the time had come to "ask ourselves whether it was not appropriate to launch a study that would allow us to inflate the M-88 a little bit." And he added: "Technically, we know how to do it."

"We are therefore in discussions with the competent authorities to see if this is possible. And if so, under what conditions and at what level of performance would it be desirable," Mr. Petitcolin told La Tribune. At the time, there was talk of developing a new version of the M-88 with between 80 and 90 kN of thrust. But this would probably have meant redesigning the Rafale's air intakes. And this is precisely the power that Mr. Saudo indicated to the deputies, when discussing the T-REX program, which aims to develop the Rafale F5 reactors.

"Today, with the SCAF delay, it is essential to find ways and means to launch [the] T-REX program, […] allowing the development of a variant of the M88 engine, with a thrust of 9 tons, as well as to build this bridge between the current engine and that of the SCAF," specified the CEO of Safran. A dialogue has been established with the DGA on this point. "This is a short-term issue," he concluded.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by VinodTK »

Mod Note: Once the deal is signed, this thread will be closed and a new one will be created. Till then, please do not post this here.

Your post has been removed. Thank You.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Kartik »

Rakesh wrote: 02 Dec 2024 21:52 Article was originally in French. Translated via Google Translate.

Safran hopes to launch the T-REX project to equip the Rafale F5 with a much more powerful engine
https://www.opex360.com/2024/11/28/safr ... puissante/
28 Nov 2024
I read this as well on Meta Defense another French publication. So a 90 kN thrust M88 derivative which will push the Rafale's total thrust in afterburner to 180 kN. Nearly 30% increase in thrust. It seems that the Rafale fuselage will have to be enlarged as well to accomodate the bigger engine with higher airflow required. Plus there was talk of a change for the GaN AESA radar that is part of the Rafale F5 standard.

But one thing that was mentioned is that this level of change would preclude upgrading Rafale F4.1 standard fighters to the F5 standard.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

This documentary is shot in 4k. Change your YouTube setting on the gear icon to 4k or the maximum possible for best viewer experience.

Indian Air Force Rafales in Hasimara and the roads to Tawang

In 'Eastern Front Airpower', Season 2, 'Season Finale', we document the Indian Air Force (IAF) Rafales in Hasimara in West Bengal. Air Force Station Hasimara is a crucial base for the Indian Air Force, due to its strategic location near the sensitive borders with Bhutan, China occupied Tibet and Bangladesh. It is also close to the critical Siliguri corridor. Often called the "Chicken's Neck," it is a narrow strip of land in West Bengal connecting the country's northeastern states to the rest of the country. This geographical bottleneck, only about 22 kilometers at its narrowest, holds immense strategic significance for several reasons.

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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/livefist/status/1890993514151833846 ---> Real scandal? India chose Rafale in 2012, purchased 36 for €7.87 billion in 2016 & another €7 billion soon for 26 more. That’s €15 billion. With that kind of leverage, a DRDO-Safran engine should have been a reality now. When you cut out the bullshit excuses, that’s the truth.
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

https://x.com/soma_as_moon7/status/1891898583210721414 ---> I had thought only a software package here and there didn't make a new fighter if I understood our respected Air Chief Marshall correctly. Why are we paying extra for a software patch update on IAF Rafale fighter again now? Is it a new product? The nation wants to know.

Navy's Rs 60,000 crore Rafale-M jet deal to help upgrade capabilities of IAF Rafales
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 218192930/
18 Feb 2025
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Re: VayuSena Rafale: News and Discussions - 17 Oct 2016

Post by Rakesh »

Trump's pullback from the defense of Western Europe, is forcing countries like France and Germany (and others) to go on a massive rearmament spree.

FCAS (France's sixth generation fighter program) is so far off in the horizon, that Dassault is putting all her chips on the Rafale. France has no other program - other than the Rafale - to improve and work on. The F4 variant has just barely entered service and Dassault is already prepping for F5.

Read these articles ---> viewtopic.php?p=2641870#p2641870

There is a future Rafale contract for the IAF in the works, confirmed by Eric Trappier (Dassault CEO) in the link above. Where in the negotiation totem pole, this contract sits and how many aircraft are involved is anyone's guess. Transactional Trump will ask for his pound of flesh if a contract goes to Dassault. A foreign fighter aircraft contract is coming for the IAF and the contract is for Dassault to lose.

The final number of aircraft coming could severely cripple (IMVHO) the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA programs.
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