Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[Kartik]

Air Chief Marshal has no good words for the Tejas, how it is easy to fly, modern compared to the old Mig-21 it replaced. Ease of training pilots, modern weapons and much more in the Tejas. No praise at all, instead it is a whining session of depleted forces, hick ups in production and more. There is no balance in the media tête-à-tête, what gives?

Please have some respect for the man. He's been a Tejas test pilot and he clearly stated in his very first press interaction that it is a very capable aircraft, and that nearly 200 have been ordered. But that it is a small aircraft for today's needs and the focus will shift to the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA in terms of new fighter requirements.

The fact that 220 Tejas Mk1 and Mk1As will go on to serve in the IAF is because it is a great fighter in it's class.

Did you hear him specifically praise the Rafale as to how good it is or how easy it is to fly or anything of the sort?

His worries are greater and genuine. This will now be the fourth Air Chief Marshal who has had to say that we will fight with whatever we have. And yet the Narendra Modi govt. just won't take MRFA any faster. Meanwhile the PAF ACM is on record stating that J-31 or whatever will be inducted and PLAAF modernisation continues at a very very rapid pace.

Remember this- in this entire year, the IAF has not received a SINGLE fighter jet as yet. Leave aside the 4 trainers that were handed over. For all practical purposes the IAF is down to 29 squadrons, the lowest it has ever been since 1965.

I can't believe it but PM Modi is proving to be like PM Nehru was in some ways. Unable to comprehend the scale of the Chinese threat. That too despite all that's been going on for 4 years now!

[drnayar]

^^^
If “depleting” numbers a big issue, then continue to produce Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk1A

The first batch of Su-30MKIs are getting to around 25-years old. MLU is in works. At some point when satisfactory “medium” category is fulfilled, older Su-30MKI could be retired or put in reserves.

Tejas Mk1A is a “definitive” variant that the IAF happy with. Continue with its production run even beyond current numbers if there are delays with “medium” category. Later, older models / excess can be re-sold/“gifted” to other nations to build strategic alliances.

it is true., just for a second think if India did not have access to the "latest and greatest" western tech ..what would have happened ..the Indian mil ind complex would be forced to innovate just like the Russians and Chinese and build in numbers with what we have !!.. and that would have built up a whole ecosystem of complexes

[bala]

Please have some respect for the man.

I think you have got my msg wrong. Anyone serving in the Armed forces of Bharat has my full respect and gratitude. I grew up in a environment of pilots/marshals and so on as my dad interacted with them. As a chief he has both my gratitude and respect. I was concerned that sensitive matters need not be aired in media, these require closed door sessions with the right decision making people and let it remain there.

His worries are greater and genuine.
Remember this- in this entire year, the IAF has not received a SINGLE fighter jet as yet.

Yes the concerns are genuine but these are matters to be hashed out in closed door sessions not in media sessions, which will not achieve anything other than some publicity. Getting Rafale's would take a longer time than what HAL can do.

I can't believe it but PM Modi is proving to be like PM Nehru was in some ways. Unable to comprehend the scale of the Chinese threat. That too despite all that's been going on for 4 years now!

Now you are going off into a tangent which is untrue. Modi is well aware of the China threat. With his team he had China withdraw from 4 areas around ladakh area. You think that is easy to do? Please have some balance instead of going of into a rant.

Everyone in this forum is looking at the big picture of an evolving Bharat and trying to comprehend all angles. Some mistakes will happen, no one is perfect. Given where Bharat is on its journey of recovery from the brutal invasive rulership of the past, the nation is on a healing process and major recovery. It requires some patience, it takes some time. Instant gratification and ideal scenario are pipe dreams.

[Rakesh]

^^^
If “depleting” numbers a big issue, then continue to produce Su-30MKI and Tejas Mk1A

The first batch of Su-30MKIs are getting to around 25-years old. MLU is in works. At some point when satisfactory “medium” category is fulfilled, older Su-30MKI could be retired or put in reserves.

Tejas Mk1A is a “definitive” variant that the IAF happy with. Continue with its production run even beyond current numbers if there are delays with “medium” category. Later, older models / excess can be re-sold/“gifted” to other nations to build strategic alliances.

We have paddled so far up shit's creek, that a measurable reversal will take minimum a decade.

With the ongoing slugfest between Russia and Ukraine, the last thing that should be done is get even more Russian hardware. One only has to see the delay in the S-400 deliveries to India to get a picture of how bleak the situation is. Rather focus on improving what is presently in service i.e. the Super Sukhoi upgrade must be a fleet-wide upgrade and not this present piecemeal upgrade program of 84 airframes. And complete the timely delivery of the 12 attrition replacement Su-30MKIs. Improve the serviceability of the Rambha fleet. These are goals that need to be worked on.

And the Super Sukhoi upgrade is vital and important enough for a fleet wide upgrade and not a piecemeal 84 airframes to start off with. Don't take my word for it. Read this post from KaranM ---> viewtopic.php?p=2631154#p2631154

And continuing to produce Tejas Mk1A (beyond 83 + 97) is not ideal, in light of GE's two-F404-deliveries-per-month schedule. At this delivery schedule, how can squadron shortage be addressed? We have not even signed a follow-on contract for the 97 Mk1A airframes and no contract with GE for engine deliveries for that second tranche either. On top of this, now produce even more Tejas Mk1As? With which turbofan and with what delivery schedule? We do not have our own turbofan and that is the Tejas' Achilles Heel.

What is the point of designing & developing aircraft or sub-systems, if we are going to struggle with production? And it is not a technical or manpower issue, but just a sheer lackadaisical attitude that always has an import window to fall back on.

[basant]

Admiral, you are unable to see the bright side. The production of F404 closed down as there are no customers. So, buying hundreds of those engines, we are forcing the USA to start previous gen factories to re-open. It will create jobs in the USA and we will get a lot of good will. We can hold the USA to ransom as we will be the only buyers for the product. It will also help IAF to get rid of the blame that it buys previous gen at futuristic price and feel proud about it as this is more than 1 gen behind in tech. With such success, who knows! We may re-open the Mirage 2K line again to purchase Mirage-2000-IN24!

[Rakesh]

Admiral, you are unable to see the bright side. The production of F404 closed down as there are no customers. So, buying hundreds of those engines, we are forcing the USA to start previous gen factories to re-open. It will create jobs in the USA and we will get a lot of good will. We can hold the USA to ransom as we will be the only buyers for the product.

Saar, you are a senior poster on BRF. Come on!

• The Boeing–Saab T-7 Red Hawk is coming, powered with a F404-GE-103 turbofan. The global production run of the T-7 is estimated to be around 2,700 aircraft. The first tranche alone is at 350+ aircraft!!

• Then there is the KAI T-50 Golden Eagle from South Korea, of which there are multiple variants. Aircraft is powered by a F404-GE-102 turbofan. 200+ in active service in multiple air forces and more aircraft on the way.

• Then there is the TAI Hurjet from Turkey, again powered by a F404-GE-102 turbofan. Still in developmental stages though.

• And finally there is the Tejas Mk1A, powered by a F404-GE-IN20 turbofan. The entire production run of the T-7 and KAI T-50, will far exceed what the planned production run (83 + 97) of the Tejas Mk1A will ever be. The F404 production line will continue to remain open for a long time, with or without the Tejas Mk1A. That is a FACT.

GE have us by the balls and they know it. We do not have our own turbofan to fall back on, an issue that is not lost on GE. We are reliant on them delivering turbofans to get the Tejas Mk1A to fly. If they renege on the contract or even slow down turbofan deliveries - apart from lost goodwill - what course of action can be realistically taken? We have *ZERO* negotiation room with GE. None. They have set the terms of the contract and we have no choice, but to follow. The entire Tejas Mk1A program FLIES on the GE F404 turbofan, both literally and figuratively.

Hold US to ransom, like you stated above? How is that going to work exactly? Can you please explain?

[basant]

It was sarcastic post, Admiral.

[Rakesh]

Saar, you pulled a fast one on me!

[Kartik]

Yes the concerns are genuine but these are matters to be hashed out in closed door sessions not in media sessions, which will not achieve anything other than some publicity. Getting Rafale's would take a longer time than what HAL can do.

Why should he pretend things are hunky dory when they clearly are not? Publicity of any type that puts pressure on a Govt that simply does not see how grave the threat is, is required.

Even EU nations, famous for being woke and blissfully asleep thinking NATO and the US would save their asses are all increasing their defence budgets, buying whatever is needed now that they understand the gravity of the Russian threat. But our PMO and MoD just can't see the threat on our borders? Our PM won't increase the defence budget come what may, so what does an Air Chief do? How is he to handle a threat that could see us up shit's creek without a paddle?

PM Nehru became ignominious for ignoring warning after warning. PM Modi is sadly doing exactly the same. Even though his goal is to bring in self reliance, critical requirements where an Indian solution is not readily available or not in the timeframe required, he has to think of the bigger security picture.

Now you are going off into a tangent which is untrue. Modi is well aware of the China threat. With his team he had China withdraw from 4 areas around ladakh area. You think that is easy to do? Please have some balance instead of going of into a rant.

Everyone in this forum is looking at the big picture of an evolving Bharat and trying to comprehend all angles. Some mistakes will happen, no one is perfect. Given where Bharat is on its journey of recovery from the brutal invasive rulership of the past, the nation is on a healing process and major recovery. It requires some patience, it takes some time. Instant gratification and ideal scenario are pipe dreams.

All this is just talk. It won't do any good if push comes to shove. And your biggest threat, isn't going to be giving you any quarter just because you were busy trying to evolve Bharat and recover from whatever.

[bala]

Publicity of any type that puts pressure on a Govt that simply does not see how grave the threat is, is required.

Karthik ji, with due respect, I think pressure via media is counter productive and could alienate govt wrt to IAF. The govt is dealing with multi-dimensional problems (each of them intractable - no obvious solutions), which IAF cannot comprehend since it is not their job. The IAF job is to defend Bharat at all costs to them with what they have, since that is their charter. Wars are also multi-dimensional as witnessed in Ukr-Rus tussle. The threat of Cheeniland is always there and Bharat is reminded of it everyday and the Govt is well aware and they do see the threat on daily basis. Just majically providing IAF with 100+ Rafales is not going to change the equation. BTW where is IAF support for ORCA / TEDBF ? Without getting Kaveri operationalized, Bharat is looking into supply issues for its aircraft needs. Everyone loves to pile upon HAL but HAL is the one which has done a super job getting Tejas to where it is today. HAL is also working on MK2 Tejas, TEDBF for the Navy and AMCA for IAF. The path is clear and requires Babus and MoD to provide a helping hand along with the IAF. Can anyone confidently say that IAF has handheld indigenous efforts like the Indian Navy?

[Karan M]

Bala, am sorry but have to agree with Kartik here. Modi admins attitude towards defence and defence R&D has been near disastrous at a macro level as they've refused to invest. They think of them as "cost centers " which have to be optimized and cash saved for social justice programs.

It's got to the point we are in a full blown crisis and the Govt is ignoring the gravity of the situation entirely. We've inducted laughably token amounts of emergency gear and those amounts, puny versus any objective assessment are touted as achievements.

Add up the numbers in actual USD (as most were imports) and the actual inductions are laughably small.

The domestic systems are all stuck as Modi Govt refuses to increase the defence budget or R&D by any meaningful amounts either. Instead we had a severely flawed attempt recently to cut DRDO to bits, sabotage it's programs and take away what limited funding autonomy it does currently have under the guise of reforms. Even if he wasn't personally responsible, vested interests are pushing a very flawed social justice first agenda plus willy nilly save money by privatisation alone, into every technocratic and national defence angle which has grave ramifications. These aren't well thought out decisions.

At what point do you want the GOI to stand up & admit it's not doing what it should. We have to stop making excuses. It has been ten years and two terms since Modi came into power. Tough talk and posturing is one thing, but situation on the ground speaks for itself. Yes, the IAF is import obsessed, what prevents Modi from increasing the Capex by x amount & dedicating it to desi munitions beyond the laughably token amounts being discussed for the Rocket Force etc.

The admin didn't even fund the Tejas Mk2 and AMCA till recently. I mean there is a point when the reality has to be called out and we stop behaving like mere fan boys who cheer on their chosen faction no matter what.

[Rakesh]

The Govt is in permanent electioneering mode and the net result is what KaranM has described above.

[bala]

Modi Govt refuses to increase the defence budget or R&D

Yes, this is pathetic. I am for 10 x the current R&D budget across the board. Recently Modi agreed to ISRO and Navy submarine budgets. I am in synch with you on pathetic piecemeal induction of many things in the Armed forces - army, navy and airforce. The missile force is inching along on abysmal induction rates.

I am concerned about DRDO changes too. One thing I am not too bought into is the current Defence Mantriji in Rajnath Singh. He is very much behind/lacking on all things especially in the Defence Area and this is causing issues. I don't know what the solutions to this issue are by the Govt.

I will tell you one thing that I am concerned, which is not discussed here - the switch from China to India by the Deep State actors with their Trillions. They are already buying up hospitals/pharma companies in India which means they are trying to import their western inefficiencies and loot into Bharat medical field. The same thing is happening to the defence sector. They (Deep State) will create their second source for the MICs in the US/Europe and suck out all the existing DRDO talent in defence areas and also in Space Tech from ISRO. This is a long term threat that has not been thought through properly.

Govt is in permanent electioneering mode

The slight debacle in voting confidence in July has caused concerns, the current Govt is a coalition with the help of others to stabilize the Govt. This cannot be avoided. I hope the Govt moves forward and gets to decision making which is crucial for the Armed forces.

In general, I have the same concerns that Karan M and You have hightlighted. IMO, these are othogonal to what IAF chief with media types are highlighting. Media messages tend to obfuscate issues and sensationalize things. I am for solving issues albeit in closed room discussions. The concerns remain and getting to a path forward is what I want, the Rest can wait.

[Karan M]

Modi Govt refuses to increase the defence budget or R&D

Yes, this is pathetic. I am for 10 x the current R&D budget across the board. Recently Modi agreed to ISRO and Navy submarine budgets. I am in synch with you on pathetic piecemeal induction of many things in the Armed forces - army, navy and airforce. The missile force is inching along on abysmal induction rates.

I am concerned about DRDO changes too. One thing I am not too bought into is the current Defence Mantriji in Rajnath Singh. He is very much behind/lacking on all things especially in the Defence Area and this is causing issues. I don't know what the solutions to this issue are by the Govt.

I will tell you one thing that I am concerned, which is not discussed here - the switch from China to India by the Deep State actors with their Trillions. They are already buying up hospitals/pharma companies in India which means they are trying to import their western inefficiencies and loot into Bharat medical field. The same thing is happening to the defence sector. They (Deep State) will create their second source for the MICs in the US/Europe and suck out all the existing DRDO talent in defence areas and also in Space Tech from ISRO. This is a long term threat that has not been thought through properly.

Govt is in permanent electioneering mode

The slight debacle in voting confidence in July has caused concerns, the current Govt is a coalition with the help of others to stabilize the Govt. This cannot be avoided. I hope the Govt moves forward and gets to decision making which is crucial for the Armed forces.

In general, I have the same concerns that Karan M and You have hightlighted. IMO, these are othogonal to what IAF chief with media types are highlighting. Media messages tend to obfuscate issues and sensationalize things. I am for solving issues albeit in closed room discussions. The concerns remain and getting to a path forward is what I want, the Rest can wait.

I will just say that RNS is unfairly attacked. If not for him things would be 100X worse, R&D gutted, the services reduced to inducting token amounts with no AoNs approved and the MOD a mere rubber stamp as has already happened to other ministries.

Please be happy he is holding the fort and a man of his political stature and hence will power is in charge. Otherwise we would be in Nehru-1965 redux stage. Thats how much the social justice re-election stuff is permeating everything.

Media management and closed room discussions have been used to stifle all devision making and pretend all is well. This Govt like all Govts needs to be held accountable by the public and professionals. So far they've been given a decade long free pass and have squandered it. How long do you think the nation state can take it's defence and security so lightly when the situation is near disastrous and we go around making PR statements about "not an era of war". Quite frankly, we are sleepwalking into conflict.

[basant]

Yes, this is the kind of false sense of security we are being lulled into, as it happened in late the 1950s. The difference to note here is that:

• There was no prior conflict with China at that time.

• We now have multiple wars and war-like situation with China, the latest of which is still continuing!

• In late 1950s, the Army chief, Gen. Thimayya, was explicit. In 1961 he said, "I hope I am not leaving you as cannon fodder for the Chinese... God bless you all"! Is anyone really raising alarm bells from the Services to the impending danger? That 'we fight with what we have' is of no consolation. In 1960s, we similarly had our recruits trained with lathis as we did not even have the Enfield .303. Where have such leaders and actual experts gone?

• Even for a very powerful and popular that General Thimayya was, the GoI was able to control him despite his immense pressure and eventual resignation!

• The Services have a command structure to follow orders. That the Defense Mininster is holding forte is an indictment in itself.

• We do not need to even talk of spending meagre resources wisely. We purchased a handful of Apaches with dubious record. Even in Afghan war, Apaches suffered 10 losses. And their purchase was a set back by multiple years for LCH. Similarly, a single order of 190 Tejas against a 2-phase order decreases the negotiation power and supply chain enhancements related to economy of scale.

• The routine defence purchases across board, at times with SQRs written specifically devised to eliminate desi options (NUH, light weapons, etc), still continue. When options are specifically available (Arjun, Astra-1), the orders are still below par. What exactly is being done to address them?

• Actually there is market for Tejas class of engines in the countries that do not want to face sanctions. How could the MoD sit idle on Kaveri when the significant number of fighters within next decade or two are going to depend on engines that face potential sanctions?

We might be doing better than the UPA time, yet there are many a peril casting a very long shadow into future. A little improvement, in defence especially, could be of little consequence.

[bala]

• We do not need to even talk of spending meagre resources wisely. We purchased a handful of Apaches with dubious record. Even in Afghan war, Apaches suffered 10 losses. And their purchase was a set back by multiple years for LCH. Similarly, a single order of 190 Tejas against a 2-phase order decreases the negotiation power and supply chain enhancements related to economy of scale.

Good points!

This Apache purchase by IAF and Army is the worst decision, wasting precious forex for GOI. LCH is proven high altitude helo and both the Army and IAF taking Apache, which is a dud at heights, is pretty moronic to say the least.

• The routine defence purchases across board, at times with SQRs written specifically devised to eliminate desi options (NUH, light weapons, etc), still continue. When options are specifically available (Arjun, Astra-1), the orders are still below par. What exactly is being done to address them?

The Import lobby is still strong and continues to dominate the decision making in MoD.

• Actually there is market for Tejas class of engines in the countries that do not want to face sanctions. How could the MoD sit idle on Kaveri when the significant number of fighters within next decade or two are going to depend on engines that face potential sanctions?

The MoD babus are reluntant to sanction any testbed, flying bed, more focussed R&D into engines. All of this takes lots of money but well worth the spend. I am amazed to see a relunctant Govt, instead of cracking whip on the Babus. What more justification do they need. Engines are an achilles heel for most things in India because there has been no concerted effort to fund a Desi version. In today's India which has more than 50% GCC (global competency centers) of the world, what is stopping the Govt to put talent to use.

We might be doing better than the UPA time, yet there are many a peril casting a very long shadow into future. A little improvement, in defence especially, could be of little consequence.

That is the point. Too much 1 step forward 2 step backwards in many areas. The fact that Bharat is well on its way to global dominance in the eco sphere of the world, should mean that leadership should wake up to the reality of wearing bigger shoes/boots, talwar, etc. Myopia will bite Bharat big time, since the world is filled with piranhas ready to attack and devour things.

[sanman]

[Rakesh]

China on mind, IAF in talks with Uttarakhand to take over 3 airstrips
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/india ... airstrips/
13 Oct 2024

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1845808192422363244 ---> Gaurav is one big standoff PGM.

[Hriday]

About the mounting disparity between India and China in the number of fighter jets.

In the past 10 years, there has been no significant increase in the defence budget, despite the minor conflicts with Pakistan and China. In addition to that in the next elections, BJP will be facing higher anti-incumbency for which higher social spending has to be budgeted.

So, what is the best short and medium plan for a war with China with the budget constraints?

A denser, highly mobile medium-range SAM like Akash, QRSAM will be the answer? In addition to that, 5th generation IR seeker equipped missiles like Python-5, and ASRAAM in SAM mode like we did in SAMAR system with R-73 missiles. This 5th generation seekers can reject flares and have the intelligence to lock on to the aircraft image. If a Python-5 is fired against the general direction of VLO aircraft against the front or side aspect in a cloudless sky there is a near-certain hit probability. Isn't it? Detection can be done by a network of highly mobile x-band radars, optics and sound sensors. Large semi-mobile radars like that of the S-400, anti-stealth radars etc are unlikely to survive.

Also, Rakesh mentioned that in future wars a significant number of fighter jets crossing the borders may not be a realistic scenario due to the threats from SAM.

[Rakesh]

Also, Rakesh mentioned that in future wars a significant number of fighter jets crossing the borders may not be a realistic scenario due to the threats from SAM.

Significant number of fighter jets crossing the borders - without breaking down the door - will result in an unacceptably high rate of attrition.

See this link ---> viewtopic.php?p=2528555#p2528555

[Manish_P]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1845808192422363244 ---> Gaurav is one big standoff PGM.

^ took me a while to notice the bomb

[A Deshmukh]

In the past 10 years, there has been no significant increase in the defence budget, despite the minor conflicts with Pakistan and China.

are you sure about your inference?
as per data, Indian Defence budget
in 2013: $47B;
in 2022: $81B;

[fanne]

An Increase of 72%

[Hriday]

viewtopic.php?p=2528563#p2528563

There is another (not very appealing) option. The IAF will have to turn into a purely defensive role in war against China and not conduct any offensive missions. So protect Indian airspace and don't venture into China at all. Will result in a dramatically lower attrition rate. Adopting this path, will require no further Rafales either other than the 36 acquired. Will the IAF bite that bullet?

Rakesh ji, few questions. Can you elaborate more on the above post by you, on how you arrived at this estimate; when you get time? Maybe, that is why govt is not that concerned about our low number of fighter jets.

For DEAD purposes Rafales use glide bombs. Aren't these bombs easier to detect and shot down with SHORAD systems? In the case of China, they will be focussing on shooting down these glide bombs.

From your link; Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa says Rafale can protect itself with EW in Tibet. But Karan M says that there is too much hype on Rafale's EW. Also, a recent report of Indian S-400 defeating all the incoming aircraft in a test supports his case. May be public can't know beyond certain points.

[Hriday]

In the past 10 years, there has been no significant increase in the defence budget, despite the minor conflicts with Pakistan and China.

are you sure about your inference?
as per data, Indian Defence budget
in 2013: $47B;
in 2022: $81B;

Sorry for not being specific and wrong usage of words. Karan M and others had been pointing out the very limited budget for acquisition compared to the actual needs. Links had been provided here multiple times.

[Rakesh]

Rakesh ji, few questions. Can you elaborate more on the above post by you, on how you arrived at this estimate; when you get time? Maybe, that is why govt is not that concerned about our low number of fighter jets.

For DEAD purposes Rafales use glide bombs. Aren't these bombs easier to detect and shot down with SHORAD systems? In the case of China, they will be focussing on shooting down these glide bombs.

From your link; Ex-IAF chief Dhanoa says Rafale can protect itself with EW in Tibet. But Karan M says that there is too much hype on Rafale's EW. Also, a recent report of Indian S-400 defeating all the incoming aircraft in a test supports his case. May be public can't know beyond certain points.

No -ji for me please and thank you.

The IAF will face a greater rate of attrition trying to ingress into China versus trying to protect India's airspace from PLAAF fighters. In the latter, you are facing the PLAAF...but in the former, you are facing the entire gamut of what the Chinese will throw at you. The number of platforms (aerial and ground) that a pilot has to contend with is much higher in the former, so the chances of being shot down are equally that much higher. This will hold equally true for the PLAAF as well when they attempt to break down our door.

Govt is not concerned because issues like squadron shortage, attrition rates, aircraft serviceability will go right over the Govt's head. They are also 24-7 in election mode. Haryana and J&K assembly elections got over and their attention is now shifted to Maharashtra and Jharkhand.

When ACM Dhanoa Sir refers to "....fantastic EW suite..." he is referring to the SPECTRA along with the other sensors onboard. From an OSINT point of view, the jury is not definitive on SPECTRA. But Rafale pilots - both in France and in India - have nothing but praise for the Rafale. See this interview of a Rafale M pilot from the French Navy....

Flying & fighting in the Dassault Rafale: Interview with a Rafale combat veteran
https://hushkit.net/2019/11/11/flying-f ... t-veteran/
11 Nov 2019

Q. Do you feel confident flying against modern air defences in a non-stealthy aircraft?

A. “Great question. I’m not sure an aircraft’s stealthiness is going to make much difference anyway against very modern stuff. We’re not afraid of low level penetrations in the french air force. So come and get me with your S-400 if I’m at 200 feet above the ground — that’s not going to happen anytime soon so. I’m not afraid. It’s something we’re trained in and so it’s part of the job. And if you want a lot munitions or stores you’re going to lose on your stealthy signature anyway. So it’s not something of much concern – that’s why we train to keep current at very low level penetration. Which is really good as we get to fly at low level – which is awesome. I can’t complain.”

Please take the above though in context. The number of variables will differ against who your enemy is and you have to cater accordingly.

Also see these posts about the Rafale from Indian Air Force pilots --->

1. viewtopic.php?p=2631668#p2631668

2. viewtopic.php?p=2601996#p2601996

And KaranM is correct. French maal - like all OEMs the world over - are hyped. That is how OEMs sell planes to customers

Soon after the Rafale joined the IAF, they conducted a DACT exercise against Su-30MKIs, Mirage 2000Is and MiG-29UPGs. The Rafale enjoyed a complete domination over the three platforms. Would be interesting to see the results, post the Super Sukhoi upgrade.

=================================================

The main takeways from this is the following (especially point 4);

1) Rafale is among the best in Western 4th generation fighter aircraft technology and will continue to remain relevant - with planned upgrades - in the decades ahead.

2) The Rambha is *NO* slouch and post the Super Sukhoi upgrade, will be a beast of Indian heritage and will rival even the Rafale.

3) The S-400 is a very effective system when tied into India's layered AD network. That China operates the exact same system gives India much insight into where the weaknesses of the system are and these will be exploited in conflict. And yes, China will do the same.

4) The fact that India has Points 1 + 2 + 3 in her quiver, will not make it easy for any enemy to just walk over. The main issue however is that we have too few of Point 1, Point 2 is taking its own sweet time for upgrading and Point 3 is coming at a snail's pace.

Don't view any platform/system - even Rafale - in isolation. Rather, envisage how she ties into the larger force structure.

[A Deshmukh]

In the past 10 years, there has been no significant increase in the defence budget, despite the minor conflicts with Pakistan and China.

as per data, Indian Defence budget
in 2013: $47B;
in 2022: $81B;

Sorry for not being specific and wrong usage of words. Karan M and others had been pointing out the very limited budget for acquisition compared to the actual needs. Links had been provided here multiple times.

As per this data,
capital outlay (acquisition) has increased from
2013-14: Rs. 80,000 cr to
2023-24: Rs. 160,000 cr (BE). doubling in 10 years.
75% of capital acquisition is earmarked for domestic industry

your choice of words, creates a narrative that Govt is not spending enough. in reality, our spending has increased quite a lot. doubled.

problem is our spending was very low in the previous 10 years - 2004-2014, creating a huge backlog, and we are still catching up.
secondly, we were in a defensive mindset for the last 4-5 decades. we have only defended our borders. Kargil was also a defensive war.
we are now talking of offensive wars - taking over GB. fighting in South China sea, etc.
So, our needs have increased and hence budget is not enough.
thirdly, we imported most of our arms. increased spending under imports, only made us poorer, and others richer.

Govt is doing a great job on fixing these issues. we should give credit where it is due.

KaranM's conclusions are not wrong. we are still short of our needs.
not all problems are fixed.
Healthy criticism like - we need to spend on LCHs and not Apaches, we need invest more on Kaveri, etc. are correct.

But generalizations that Govt is not spending on capital acquisitions are wrong conclusions.

[drnayar]

I think someone posted a while.back whether the industry would be able to absorb only so much as it is mindful of efficiencies. I think it translates to trained manpower and infrastructure ..

[Karan M]

But generalizations that Govt is not spending on capital acquisitions are wrong conclusions.

Fact of the matter is BE are not actual Capex. BE is Budgeted Expense. Actual is different. Also, the amount earmarked for Capex in defence has been devastated by OROP, a political decision undertaken by this Govt.

Next, amount budgeted over ten years needs to be seen in relation to what our opponents are doing.

We are historically at the lowest point as a % of our GDP. It is the lowest since 1960. Clearly, the GOvt is not spending enough.
https://theprint.in/opinion/defence-bud ... r/2192721/

Next, we can judge the situation by the state of the armed forces. The AF is at an all time low in terms of fighter squadrons. It had received no new airframes bar a pitiful 36 Rafales. It lacks refuellers and even AWACS and even the option of 2 more Phalcons wasn't exercised.

The Army remains far behind in artillery and SPH, MGS. IN is struggling with a low number of submarines and has had to fight to get a mere 2 SSN sanctioned.

All three forces are grappling with a severe budgetary crisis, but IA is worst hit.

We need to spend more.

[nachiket]

We need to spend more.

More importantly, we need to spend wisely. Even for the amount we do spend we do not get adequate bang for the buck thanks to poorly thought out procurement decisions. The latest one on splurging $3.5B on MQ-9B's being a fine example.

[bala]

Questions and answers galore with Air Marshal Anil Khosla and Major Gaurav Arya



Many topics, China, US, India, Russia strengths capability; then 42 squadrons why and where is India on the topic; 4 gen, 5 gen discussions; engines; unmanned platforms and more.

[A Deshmukh]

But generalizations that Govt is not spending on capital acquisitions is a wrong conclusion.

Fact of the matter is BE are not actual Capex. BE is Budgeted Expense. Actual is different. Also, the amount earmarked for Capex in defence has been devastated by OROP, a political decision undertaken by this Govt.

this link 75% of capital acquisition is earmarked for domestic industry provides for data on actual capex. if you think OROP reduces this amount, please provide links for actual capex for the last 20 years. Panag article of Print also points to the same figure after removing OROP costs.

We are historically at the lowest point as a % of our GDP. It is the lowest since 1960.

but the denominator of GDP is rising very fast. So the slight reduction in % can also result in increasing Capex!

also, the money spent in India acquires more bang for buck.
to illustrate same $1M can get 'n' M777 guns compared to '2n' ATAGS.
(wrong illustration since we have not ordered the ATAGs yet and do not know the price point of the order, but you can get the gist).
Our budget in capex in terms of #guns/#helis/#missiles acquired is increasing year on year and rapidly, as the same $s is now getting us more arms and ammunition.

Clearly, the GOvt is not spending enough. We need to spend more.

this is highly subjective and depends on the opinion.
I would also like the Govt to spend more,
but investment in infrastructure - rails, roads, ports, need to come first. Become rich fast.
also, I would not like any increase of taxes (that would be an election-looser)
So, considering the limited source of money, I am happy with the current increase in capex.

We have spent first in the 1984-89 period. ordered Mig-29s, Mirages, ships, aircraft carriers.
almost became a superpower.
it did not end well.
we went into crisis in 1991 and our FM had to travel capitals with a begging bowl.
So, spend has to be careful. $s in imported arms is an expense account. $s in local capacities and infrastructure is an investment account.

Next, we can judge the situation by the state of the armed forces. The AF is at an all time low in terms of fighter squadrons. It had received no new airframes bar a pitiful 36 Rafales. It lacks refuellers and even AWACS and even the option of 2 more Phalcons wasn't exercised.

On fighter aircraft orders the Govt, particularly Parrikar did a great job. they got 100-200 Tejas on order. Prior to 2014, no one, including BR believed we would actually order 200+ Tejas. Its another matter that US is playing games on the supply of engines.
Before 2014. SU30MKI availability rate hovered around 40%. After Parrikar's efforts and $B in spares, it rose to 65%+. i.e 25% of 272 ~= 4 squadrons !!
On both these projects Govt has done damn good.
AWACS we have already have project of 6 A321 based Netras.
If you dig in deeper on why 2 more Phalcons were not ordered, you may find answers.

The Army remains far behind in artillery and SPH, MGS.

yes, they are certainly behind in artillery.
but the army is answerable to that. It prioritized to spend B$s on Apaches & M777s and not on LCHs or K9s or ATAGs.
It is certainly not for lack of budget.

IN is struggling with a low number of submarines and has had to fight to get a mere 2 SSN sanctioned.

Nothing to indicate that we will stop at only 2 SSNs. if we have 5 SSBNs planned (and 3 already swimming), then we will have 5-10 SSNs escorting them.
What is the point of ordering 10 SSNs, if we have capacity to build only 2 at a time?

Next, amount budgeted over ten years needs to be seen in relation to what our opponents are doing.

It depends on how we intend to fight our 3.5 front enemies. Our enemies are
(1) internal - what we call as 0.5 front
(2) TSP -
(3) China
(4) US and DS/GehraRajya.


(1) internal: this battle in on. naxals who were controlling one-third of the country are almost vanquished. Kashmir terrorism is subdued.
new enemies have spawned and will be defeated. this does not depend on the defence budget that is under discussion.

(2) TSP: on the verge of being defeated without firing a bullet. TSP army today cannot send its army in Balochistan and NWFP.
if it attacks we have enough to beat them.

(3) Chin:
We had and have a huge gap with Chin in terms of material. China is adding one Indian Navy every few years!
We cannot catch up with orders of imported material.
Govt is building capacities internally. Atmanirbhar is the right way.
Till we have enough, we have to hold them off, in a defensive war.
We seem to be doing that well.

(4) US/DS/GR:
this is a narrative war. "Govt is weak. Govt is bad. Govt is incompetent", etc.
this needs to be countered by you and me with real data points.

[mody]

Inducting a significant number of new airframes in the next 5-6 years is almost impossible for the airforce. The only viable option for this is the Tejas MK1A and here we are limited by the number of GE-F404IN20 engines that we can get. In the best case scenario, we will start to receive about 20 engines per annum from 2026 onwards. From now till December 2025, we will be lucky if we can get 12-16 engines. Tejas MK1A will be the only aircraft that IAF can realistically induct over the next 5 years. the Tejas MK2 would enter production hopefully from 2030 onwards, if the engine deal with GE is finalized.

The MRFA program is still in limbo. The final offers from the potential vendors have also not been received till date. Even if we go for a G to G deal for either the Rafale or F-15EX, the contract signing would take anywhere upto 18 months and first deliveries would start only after a minimum 36 months thereafter. Realistically we would not receive a single airframe in the next 5 years.

Given the above state of affairs, the best option for the IAF is to focus on the following and use bulk of the capital acquisition budget for the next 4-5 years on the following force multipliers and air defense systems.

1). Drones and loitering ammunition. In the current dense air defense environment, using drones and loitering ammunition is the best option for surveillance and precision strikes. They are much cheaper and fairly effective. The IAF needs to invest in large number of such systems of various types. Some effort on this front is ongoing and we need systems spanning the entire spectrum for very cheap to fairly sophisticated ones.

2). Transport aircraft. IAF has been trying to get a medium transport aircraft for a long time. The C-390 seems good, if we can get the assembly line for it in India. IAF will need a minimum of 80 aircrafts to replace the AN-32s, plus they can use the same aircraft for midair refueling as well. Which would mean another 12-18 aircrafts. Apart from transport, it would also give us viable platform for midair refuellers, which would not break the bank. Finding a customer willing to induct close to 100 C-390 aircrafts would be impossible for Brazil. Shifting the entire production line for the C-390 to India would be a viable and a good option.

3). AEW aircraft. The work on Netra MKII is ongoing, however, as per reports the scope of work to convert the Airbus A321 aircrafts for the AEW role is much more than what was anticipated and the time of delivery and the cost, both are set to increase. The IAF should take it up with the MoD to induct an additional 3-6 nos of Netra MK1A on fast track basis, such that all aircrafts can be inducted latest by 2030.

4). Air defense. A multi layered dense air defense system has become a must. Over the last 15 years a number of new radar systems have been inducted. However, a lot more still needs to be done. Place orders for Akash-NG system 9-12 squadrons, once it clears the user trials. Place orders for VL-SRSAM, upto 20 squadrons. Place orders for 4 regiments of QRSAM (India Army) and 2-4 regiments of MRSAM (Indian Army) place orders for the VSHORAD missiles once the user trials are over. Induct the remaining 2 squadrons of S400 systems.

5). Attack helicopters. the Prachand is here and ready. The acquisition has been cleared. 156 Prachand would take up some of the ground attack responsibility along with drones as given above.

[Karan M]

Fact of the matter is BE are not actual Capex. BE is Budgeted Expense. Actual is different. Also, the amount earmarked for Capex in defence has been devastated by OROP, a political decision undertaken by this Govt.

this link 75% of capital acquisition is earmarked for domestic industry provides for data on actual capex. if you think OROP reduces this amount, please provide links for actual capex for the last 20 years. Panag article of Print also points to the same figure after removing OROP costs.

Please Google for IA Capex prior to OROP and thereafter. Or just look at how AFs pension burden has increased. Pensions are now anywhere between 30-40% of IAs budgeting currently and modernisation outlay is at 9-10%. All this data is freely available online, so being asked to be shown it either means you are absolutely unaware of the problem or just debating for debatings sake.

We are historically at the lowest point as a % of our GDP. It is the lowest since 1960.

but the denominator of GDP is rising very fast. So the slight reduction in % can also result in increasing Capex!

The lower percentage indicates that even when we were less prosperous we took defence more seriously at least budgetarily and that huge positive effects eg mass Flanker induction, Mirage and MiG upgrade.
And the overall amounts we are currently spending are still far behind the amounts that we need and what our opponents have inducted. I suspect you haven't looked into any of these issues in detail or what our adversaries field, hence your unbelievable complacency about where we are today.

also, the money spent in India acquires more bang for buck.
to illustrate same $1M can get 'n' M777 guns compared to '2n' ATAGS.
(wrong illustration since we have not ordered the ATAGs yet and do not know the price point of the order, but you can get the gist).

This is besides the point as China has been spending more then us & orders local. What's truly ironic is that Pakistan right now has more SPH then we do. Are we going to sermonize them on how our local strategy is best when we've neither ordered imports or local in number.

Our budget in capex in terms of #guns/#helis/#missiles acquired is increasing year on year and rapidly, as the same $s is now getting us more arms and ammunition.

This is just rhetoric unfortunately because we have as of yet not placed any mass order for significant local systems yet beyond Akash, Pinaka and even the remaining 6 regiments of Pinaka are stuck.

Clearly, the GOvt is not spending enough. We need to spend more.

this is highly subjective and depends on the opinion.
I would also like the Govt to spend more,
but investment in infrastructure - rails, roads, ports, need to come first. Become rich fast.

Hardly subjective. Your opponents have far more fighters then you do, your AF fleet is at an all time low, you are still using obsolete Pechoras, you have literally no BMD beyond a few batteries of S400 (which wasn't a BMD system to be with), your artillery is behind in reach and volume then both your opponents....the list goes on and on...what exactly is your point here.

Will your subjectivity compensate for the tardiness shown by the Govt in clearing both Tejas and AMCA or not even launching a Kaveri follow on.

Somehow for any & every "political program" including statues and free rations, we find funds, but protecting the state is second fiddle.

also, I would not like any increase of taxes (that would be an election-looser)
So, considering the limited source of money, I am happy with the current increase in capex.

I am perfectly ok with paying more taxes directed towards defence and R&D alone as versus it going towards political purposes "X caste", "Y underprivileged" etc and then touting a mere 36 Rafale as a game changer when one of your opponents has 150-200 5G platforms.

We have spent first in the 1984-89 period. ordered Mig-29s, Mirages, ships, aircraft carriers.
almost became a superpower.
it did not end well.
we went into crisis in 1991 and our FM had to travel capitals with a begging bowl.
So, spend has to be careful. $s in imported arms is an expense account. $s in local capacities and infrastructure is an investment account.

All very well, except we are not purchasing from the local account as well. A mere 83 Tejas Mk1A have been ordered till date.

Next, we can judge the situation by the state of the armed forces. The AF is at an all time low in terms of fighter squadrons. It had received no new airframes bar a pitiful 36 Rafales. It lacks refuellers and even AWACS and even the option of 2 more Phalcons wasn't exercised.

On fighter aircraft orders the Govt, particularly Parrikar did a great job. they got 100-200 Tejas on order. Prior to 2014, no one, including BR believed we would actually order 200+ Tejas. Its another matter that US is playing games on the supply of engines.

This is just feel good at this point. Do you know the name of the Chinese Defence Minister who gave them 600 plus J10s and 200 J20s? Do you need to? Did the opinions of any Chinese forum matter.

No. What mattered are orders, investments, consequently pace of execution. Reality is that while we talk big and bring in emotion, fact is right now we merely have 83 Tejas Mk1A on order and their dependence on US engines is because *this* Govt (not Pappu, not Rajiv, not Nehru not anyone else ) let Kaveri wither on the vine for ten long years while they found cash and taxes for everything else that they deemed necessary. So Kaveri wasn't a necessary. Meanwhile some unknown Chinese mandarin signed off on WS10, WS15, WS-whatever and we have Chinese fighters flying with Chinese engines and not blaming the US, Russia, their aunt, uncle etc. So tell me, who has the more "objective" decision making apparatus.

Before 2014. SU30MKI availability rate hovered around 40%. After Parrikar's efforts and $B in spares, it rose to 65%+. i.e 25% of 272 ~= 4 squadrons !!
On both these projects Govt has done damn good.

Yes, but it is like stating that the Government did a great task by....governing. You are comparing a baseline student to a mediocre one and then touting the merits of the former. "Your kid didn't even pass the exams, at least mine did."

Tell me, how many platforms did China induct while we (theoretically) moved Su30 serviceability up. Theoretically as thanks to the Russia war situation & forex Rs to Ruble spat we played finance first (as usual) and all our supplies from Russia were stalled till recently. Meanwhile we didn't even fund the Mk2 program with alacrity. The AMCA program has been hanging fire since 2018. And we have cash enough to plonk on statues of political leaders.

The PLAAF are running 100 aircraft sorties into Taiwans ADIZ whenever they wish, like clockwork. Do you understsnd what that speaks of their local resilience in contrast. Please start thinking objectively.

AWACS we have already have project of 6 A321 based Netras.

If only plans could go to war. We have no shortage of plans whereas we need planes. Here is a quick calculation for you. Do you know how many Netras it would take to maintain surveillance of the China front. Assume 70% availability. Answer, it would take 14 just for three sectors at 2 per day. Itbwould actually take more then that if I were more conservative. Then add in tankers. Our numbers are abysmal. Pretending otherwise won't fool any adversary. They don't care for our claims.

If you dig in deeper on why 2 more Phalcons were not ordered, you may find answers.

What is there to dig. The IL76s had low serviceability and the Israelis charged a high price. Both could have been addressed. Bottomline we currently only have 5 AWACS with 1 in workup, while Pakistan alone has what, 9.

The Army remains far behind in artillery and SPH, MGS.

yes, they are certainly behind in artillery.
but the army is answerable to that. It prioritized to spend B$s on Apaches & M777s and not on LCHs or K9s or ATAGs.
It is certainly not for lack of budget.

Wait, so are you aware of who signs off on these purchases. It's not the IA, its the CCS or final fiscal authority. Who stopped the GOI from having IA not purchase Ah64s.

We are getting into weird territory here. When mil purchases new toys, to GOIs credit. When it turns out the purchases were profligate, its their fault. Who signed off on 31 MQ9Bs, are we in a mil dictatorship.

IN is struggling with a low number of submarines and has had to fight to get a mere 2 SSN sanctioned.

Nothing to indicate that we will stop at only 2 SSNs. if we have 5 SSBNs planned (and 3 already swimming), then we will have 5-10 SSNs escorting them.
What is the point of ordering 10 SSNs, if we have capacity to build only 2 at a time?

Is there something known as a lead time and plan by which we inform suppliers about what is on the roadmap so they can plan, invest ahead or do we just click our fingers and everything magically falls into place as we currently did with the Tejas etc. Oh wait it didn't and we are now rushing to fix those issues. If we have X then we will magically have Y to support them, is like saying just because India is a X trillion $ economy, IAF will have 60 squadrons of 5G platforms. If wishes were horses. Fact, politically, there is clearly no interest or understanding of the gravity of threat we face. Please prove this wrong & raise Capex, R&D.

Next, amount budgeted over ten years needs to be seen in relation to what our opponents are doing.

It depends on how we intend to fight our 3.5 front enemies. Our enemies are
(1) internal - what we call as 0.5 front
(2) TSP -
(3) China
(4) US and DS/GehraRajya.

2 and 3 can always fight together do keep that in mind.

(1) internal: this battle in on. naxals who were controlling one-third of the country are almost vanquished. Kashmir terrorism is subdued.
new enemies have spawned and will be defeated. this does not depend on the defence budget that is under discussion

Surprising. I'd have thought the huge numbers of IA personnel at LOC, LAC and even in hinterlands did need a budget. And currently IA kit is way behind what is necessary as it is.

And every other day, TSP terrorists come into India and kill our soldiers.

(2) TSP: on the verge of being defeated without firing a bullet. TSP army today cannot send its army in Balochistan and NWFP.
if it attacks we have enough to beat them.

Really? They are defeated. So can you and I just walk over the LoC then? Have their nukes disappeared. The Pakistanis are fighting a 2nd rung insurgency with their COIN forces, same as we did. Their losses are a drop in the pan. And make no mistake, today, even with our conventional forces, they have an edge over us in specific areas. Because we have had to reassign to fight a dual front threat. They have a primary front, India and India alone for their heavy units.

And no, Pakistan isn't a pushover.

(3) Chin:
We had and have a huge gap with Chin in terms of material. China is adding one Indian Navy every few years!
We cannot catch up with orders of imported material.
Govt is building capacities internally. Atmanirbhar is the right way.
Till we have enough, we have to hold them off, in a defensive war.
We seem to be doing that well.

I see, we are doing that well, with an AF that is at its weakest numbers wise, and a PRC that is not even at its peak. I mean how does one even debate when you eschew the actual capacity building that has gone on in Pakistan and China both.

(4) US/DS/GR:
this is a narrative war. "Govt is weak. Govt is bad. Govt is incompetent", etc.
this needs to be countered by you and me with real data points.

Sorry, but the data is what it is. If the Govt is incompetent at certain tasks they need to fix themselves, not have us run a propaganda campaign to cover up glaring weaknesses. If someone we like is making life changing mistakes you fix them, not put up a brave face in public stating that "our kid is perfect".

Fact is defence is clearly not being taken seriously enough by this Govt & far more needs to be done as versus magically wishing Pakistan will disappear or the terror attacks in J&K are too few to matter etc. This is even without bringing in China into the mix.

Right now it is ridiculous that in 2019 itself, the PAF came over, bombed India territory and we didn't even retaliate. And even after that, the Pakistanis have inducted systems in number that match ours and we are now lagging behind them in key areas.

Tell me, post 2019, despite the umpteen terror attacks Pak has done, have we many any more public, visible strikes as versus taking credit for some mercs bumping off their low level leaders (whom Pak can literally replace willy nilly).

Forget the PLAAF, even the Pakistanis are ahead & yet here you are pretending everything is hunky dory. In which world. Are you even objective.

Mixing political preference in terms of analysis leads to bad analysis. Please understand the gravity of the two front thread versus Pak and China both and you wouldn't be so sanguine.

Without getting into too many details, a war with both and an intense one would have us run begging to the west to just make up for what China can provide. And so much for all the talk of US deep state, sovereignty etc.

We've already mortgaged that by refusing to invest in our own capacity and prioritising electoral wins, fiscal book keeping over actual strategic independence.

Anyone can see that. Refusing to acknowledge that to ourselves doesn't really help us. Acknowledge the problem, then only can you fix it.

[basant]

I believe we can make the above post as FAQ. Thanks a lot sir!

[Manish_P]

...

..

2 and 3 can always fight together do keep that in mind.

Reality a) - 2, 3 and 4 have all invested in different sections of 1. And they use it from time to time to hurt us.

Reality b) - we seem to always be just one election away from disaster. The fact is the current opposition might well stop any little efforts being taken now simply out of petty spite or deep malice or to divert money to their coffers or to curry favor from the enemies for self gain or any or all combination of such reasons.

[Karan M]

The only things saving us from the PRC rapidly ramping up it's aggression are a) Taiwan focus and b) their lack of infra on for the Western Theater Command.

Galwan clearly showed that despite all our talk of superior training, esprit de corps etc Chinese decision makers were not deterred and pushed the envelope.

Even now, they are making more and more absurd territorial claims while simultaneously building up, and talking peace. We are bragging about 36 Rafales via TRP hungry media on YouTube.

The day either a) or b) change, and b) is already changing, we are in disaster zone.

No amount of jingoism & blaming the US, elections, opposition will mask the reality that we have allowed fiscal conservatism and political blinkers to direct most of our efforts on defence & R&D. The recent effort to kill DRDOs funding was headlined by Shishir Gupta (GOIs unstated spokes) as a way to "save money" for the prime ministers social schemes. Misplaced priorities max.

Pakistan continues to kill our soldiers in J&K, run a low grade assassination campaign versus non Kashmiris. Separatism will again pick up as PDP is back. And note, no talk of cross border pursuits once we'd to reassign strike units to face PRC.

Worldwide, we have absolutely failed at Information warfare.

IT cell is busy in laser eye Jaishankar memes while everyone & their pet dog run Qatar, PRC, Pak funded lobby group reports on Hindutva fascists running India & we respond with trolling on SM and no true coherent strategy.

Now imagine how the opposition and world would react if we get bloodied in conflict.

All we can do is be objective & hope the GOI course corrects.

[nachiket]

Reality b) - we seem to always be just one election away from disaster. The fact is the current opposition might well stop any little efforts being taken now simply out of petty spite or deep malice or to divert money to their coffers or to curry favor from the enemies for self gain or any or all combination of such reasons.

I'm sorry but we cannot blame the opposition for this situation. The present government has been in power for over 10 years now and for most of that time with a healthy majority with the opposition being in shambles at the center. Aside from when Shri Parrikar was at the helm of the MoD we have seen some horrendous decision making, delays and betrayal of their own push for Atmanirbharta when it comes to defence procurement. You can blame the services for this for sure, but the buck ultimately stops with the Defence Minister and his boss the PM who have been given the authority to fix this mess by the people which they have failed to do so far.

[Rupesh]

For those who think the current administration is spending more on defence, refer below link. Current year budget is lower than 1962 as a percentage of GDP.

https://www.macrotrends.net/global-metr ... nse-budget