INS Chakra joins IN - Where is the Mithai?

[S_Madhukar]

ok.. so let me repeat the question on top of the page !!.. why does india need a new Akula ?!

Don’t we need a round the clock bodyguard for our biggies and practise on what will eventually be our three bodyguards ?

[Rakesh]

ok.. so let me repeat the question on top of the page !!.. why does india need a new Akula ?!

You need a SSN capable crew to operate the first pair of Type 75A/Type 77 SSNs that will be coming in the late 2030s. For that, you need a crew that can hit the ground running from even prior to commissioning. There is no time for hand holding and spoon feeding.

With INS Chakra-II being returned back, that skill set is currently not being utilized and many of the men who served aboard INS Chakra-II will retire or move on, by the time the first P75A/P77 boat enters active service. This is what happened with INS Chakra I, which was returned to Russia in 1991. And when INS Chakra II entered service in 2012, more than 20+ years had passed. Crew training had to start all over again. By leasing another boat, it gives the Indian Navy a seamless manpower transition.

Then there are SOPs on boat handling and maintenance (especially the reactor), SSN tactics and manouvers, etc that require consistent review. None of this can be done without an in-service SSN. And with the number of SSBNs coming online and with INS Vikrant, a SSN is also vital for escort. We cannot wait for 12 years for our own SSN to come and we need these platforms as soon as possible.

[maitya]

You need a SSN capable crew to operate the first pair of Type 75A/Type 77 SSNs that will be coming in the late 2030s. For that, you need a crew that can hit the ground running from even prior to commissioning. There is no time for hand holding and spoon feeding.

With INS Chakra-II being returned back, that skill set is currently not being utilized and many of the men who served aboard INS Chakra-II will retire or move on, by the time the first P75A/P77 boat enters active service. This is what happened with INS Chakra I, which was returned to Russia in 1991. And when INS Chakra II entered service in 2012, more than 20+ years had passed. Crew training had to start all over again. By leasing another boat, it gives the Indian Navy a seamless manpower transition.

Then there are SOPs on boat handling and maintenance (especially the reactor), SSN tactics and manouvers, etc that require consistent review. None of this can be done without an in-service SSN. And with the number of SSBNs coming online and with INS Vikrant, a SSN is also vital for escort. We cannot wait for 12 years for our own SSN to come and we need these platforms as soon as possible.

Besides, we will need some sort of a credible sea-denial capability, until 2035 (when the first of the indigenous SSNs is expected to be operational), given the increasing Chinese presence, not only in IOR, but also in BoB and Arabian Sea.
There needs to be some semblance of deployed capability-match with the Chinese Navy, given the sheer asymmetry of SSN (and conventional platforms, both surface and sub-surface) capability, especially wrt their deployment trend in IOR.

To be fair, we actually need 2 SSNs in deployed mode now (to be replaced by our own pair of SSNs a decade hence) to be able to demonstrate this aspect of our defensive posture - but, since except for mother Russia, nobody is willing to part that sort of an platform (and, except for Unkil, nobody has that sort of leasing-type-ability anyway), we are being forced to make do with only 1.
But that itself has got delayed to 2028 now, earlier it was being reported that lease will start from 2025 onwards.

What is baffling though, MoD procrastinated/sat on the approval of the SSN project, for ~approx 7-8 years, but never thought of opening a parallel negotiating line with the Russians, for the 2nd on-lease SSN.
Is the thought process, that we are ok with IOR being a CN playground, all the while? Or is it that by some miracle (AUKUS etc), Unkil will allow a similar 10-year-leasing of one of it's SSN boats?

[chetak]

Besides, we will need some sort of a credible sea-denial capability, until 2035 (when the first of the indigenous SSNs is expected to be operational), given the increasing Chinese presence, not only in IOR, but also in BoB and Arabian Sea.
There needs to be some semblance of deployed capability-match with the Chinese Navy, given the sheer asymmetry of SSN (and conventional platforms, both surface and sub-surface) capability, especially wrt their deployment trend in IOR.

To be fair, we actually need 2 SSNs in deployed mode now (to be replaced by our own pair of SSNs a decade hence) to be able to demonstrate this aspect of our defensive posture - but, since except for mother Russia, nobody is willing to part that sort of an platform (and, except for Unkil, nobody has that sort of leasing-type-ability anyway), we are being forced to make do with only 1.
But that itself has got delayed to 2028 now, earlier it was being reported that lease will start from 2025 onwards.

What is baffling though, MoD procrastinated/sat on the approval of the SSN project, for ~approx 7-8 years, but never thought of opening a parallel negotiating line with the Russians, for the 2nd on-lease SSN.
Is the thought process, that we are ok with IOR being a CN playground, all the while? Or is it that by some miracle (AUKUS etc), Unkil will allow a similar 10-year-leasing of one of it's SSN boats?

maitya ji,

There is a small set of russki crew members always on board the boat.

Their role is advisory but their presence on board is mandatory per the contract.

they are there to ensure that the terms of the contract are strictly followed at all times, and the boat is not endangered in any way.

The operational training of IN crews aboard such a nuclear sub resource is way beyond invaluable since the IN does not have such a capability at present, and also since no other country has offered / will ever offer such an esoteric and vertically specialized capability to ramp up India's second strike capability, by directly helping out to lay the very foundations of the third leg of the triad.

What ever be the amount that India may have paid to access such a singularly unique resource is mere peanuts, when compared to what we have got back in terms of returns on investment.

This has also helped the IN greatly in the development of their own shore based training facilities with a dynamically infused curricula based on live and operationally generated feedback to establish an ecosystem and build an institutional culture to take basic and advanced training facilities to a new level of competence.

We need to urgently develop and build a muscle memory that will serve the IN in the years to come.

Times and technologies have never changed so fast for the IN as they are manifesting today and the IN needs to be flexible enough to adapt quickly and confidently.

The GoI has slowly begun to recognize the principal role of the IN in terms of power projection, protection of the SLOCs, both national and international, and anti piracy ops, all of which have the high potential to generate and sustain a huge perception of India, in terms of hard as well as soft power potential.

[maitya]

...
Besides, we will need some sort of a credible sea-denial capability, until 2035 (when the first of the indigenous SSNs is expected to be operational), given the increasing Chinese presence, not only in IOR, but also in BoB and Arabian Sea.
There needs to be some semblance of deployed capability-match with the Chinese Navy, given the sheer asymmetry of SSN (and conventional platforms, both surface and sub-surface) capability, especially wrt their deployment trend in IOR.
...

Just to bolster the point I's making above:

... With 10-11 PLA warships in the Indian Ocean every month since last year and carrier based long range patrols expected in 2025-26 ...

From: India launches 4th nuclear-missile submarine

Only SSNs on long-range patrols, will be able to make life really difficult for all such CN attempts ... neither ACs nor SSKs are capable enough to counter such aggressive deployments consistently. In fact, 1 is simply not enough ...
And that's only about defensive posture ... escorting 2 A/Cs, long range patrolling etc duties are there, for which this 1 boat wouldn't simply be enough.

[vonkabra]

Not sure I follow this point:

Only SSNs on long-range patrols, will be able to make life really difficult for all such CN attempts ... neither ACs nor SSKs are capable enough to counter such aggressive deployments consistently. In fact, 1 is simply not enough ...

Submarines do not advertise their presence, so even if Indian SSNs were tracking such deployments, why would the Chinese be deterred? Of course it would be a different matter if a shooting war broke out...

[Rakesh]

Submarines do not advertise their presence, so even if Indian SSNs were tracking such deployments, why would the Chinese be deterred? Of course it would be a different matter if a shooting war broke out...

Sirjee, the answer to your question is in your own post

At any given point in time, there are multiple US and UK SSNs operating silently in China's own backyard. All these are peacetime deployments, but the message delivered to China is loud and clear i.e. deterrence. And when the shooting war starts out, the Chinese are well aware of what will happen to them. In a shooting war, the PLAN will find it challenging to prevail against the US.

Peacetime Deployment = Deterrence

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Submarines do not advertise their presence, so even if Indian SSNs were tracking such deployments, why would the Chinese be deterred? Of course it would be a different matter if a shooting war broke out...

Sirjee, the answer to your question is in your own post

At any given point in time, there are multiple US and UK SSNs operating silently in China's own backyard. All these are peacetime deployments, but the message delivered to China is loud and clear i.e. deterrence. And when the shooting war starts out, the Chinese are well aware of what will happen to them. In a shooting war, the PLAN will find it challenging to prevail against the US.

Peacetime Deployment = Deterrence

With the Chakra coming in, our Admiral sahab has surfaced again. Unfortunately, the promised mithai is still untraceable.

[Rakesh]

With the Chakra coming in, our Admiral sahab has surfaced again. Unfortunately, the promised mithai is still untraceable.

Mithai only if it is Akula-2

[SNaik]

And why not Severodvinsk? It's a one-off boat and obviously Russians considered that the design is already dated/unsuitable/too expensive for mass production and had to introduce Yasen-M. In some aspects like Sea Wolf - Virginia situation.

[Rakesh]

And why not Severodvinsk? It's a one-off boat and obviously Russians considered that the design is already dated/unsuitable/too expensive for mass production and had to introduce Yasen-M. In some aspects like Sea Wolf - Virginia situation.

Sir, please do not toy with my emotions like this. You are giving me too much hope