Project 75 Alpha Class SSN: News & Discussion

[Rakesh]

Great set of posts KaranM. Thanks.

Indian officers are ripe for the picking. Offers of settling in the US, opportunities for their kids (if they have any) at higher education in US universities (even Ivy League ones) are dangled. These are carrots that are not easy to ignore and one has to be in their shoes to understand their motivation to fall for that temptation. And this exchange of information is not even presented as espionage to these officers. The game of subterfuge is wily and is a statecraft that is time immemorial. We don't know - and likely never will - the extent of infiltration that has occurred to date with such kind of espionage.

It takes a strong willed individual (and there are!) to turn down these offers and still soldier on in India. Loyalty, Patriotism, Duty are buzz words we use on BRF. Kudos to the officers who actually have to live it.

Below is a very well known story about Rabinder Singh, a former RAW officer...

The true story of Rabinder Singh, an Indian spy who became a mole for the CIA and vanished into thin air
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-09/ ... /103174370
09 Dec 2023

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy's Quest for Nuclear Submarines
https://www.spsmai.com/experts-speak/?i ... Submarines
15 August 2024

India's focus on nuclear submarines has intensified, especially after the end of the Russian Akula class submarine lease in 2021, leaving the Indian Navy without an SSN (nuclear attack submarine) in its fleet.

^^^^^^^^^The below is news to me. This deal is reportedly on hold due to the war in Ukraine.

India set to commission its second nuclear-missile submarine
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 438432.cms
11 Aug 2024

Until India's own SSNs are ready, the country will lease an advanced Akula-class SSN from Russia in 2026 as part of a $3 billion deal signed in March 2019.

And INS Chakra-III is likely the Iribis (the last Akula boat). This was reported by the US Naval Institute website in 2013. See link below.

India Interested in Leasing Second Russian Nuclear Attack Sub
https://news.usni.org/2013/07/08/india- ... attack-sub
08 July 2013

Vladimir Dorofeev — head of Russian submarine design firm St. Petersburg Marine Engineering Bureau “Malachite” — told Indian Express the new lease would likely be built around the former Akula-class submarine, Iribis.

However, others have reported that it is the Magadan.

[ShauryaT]

I have total respect for the Admiral, but disagree on his tradeoff strategy of IOR dominance for Himalayan Frontiers, which I think is primarily reflecting budget constraints and hard choices to be made. I love the idea of an aggressive defense and take the battle to the SCS. We cannot do it all until budgets accept our security and power projection needs as essential and a prerequisite to the Indian growth story.

China's 'Malacca Dilemma', Can India Control The South China Sea? Rear Admiral K Raja Menon

[Rakesh]

...

I posted this video in the Indian Navy thread, but since you have posted it here, I have removed my post in the Indian Navy thread.

It is better served here. Thank You.

[Rakesh]

Nuclear submarine will be a leapfrog for India-France ties, bring New Delhi into exclusive club
https://theprint.in/opinion/nuclear-sub ... s/2286794/
27 Sept 2024

Paris’ significant splash in the ever-vibrant pool of India’s defence industry comes at a time when the Navy is aspiring to build at least two nuclear attack submarines.

The two-day India-France strategic dialogue between National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and the French President’s Diplomatic Advisor Emanuel Bonne is set to take place in Paris on 30 September and 1 October. But, just before this upcoming dialogue, France has offered India major deals including nuclear-powered attack submarines or the SSNs.

Now the French have offered the development of SSNs, based on their own Barracuda class subs with significant ToT. The finer details are not yet known and could be discussed when the two sides meet in Paris shortly. Regarded as the crown jewel of military capability, if the deal on SSNs comes through, it would be the most staggering success for the India-France defence bonhomie.

[SRajesh]

^^^Rakesh
Please could I ask to enlighten what this offer is for??
What are the Souffle (or should I use proper term Souffler)offering Us??
Basics of designing and building we have and dont need if we can build Arihant class.
Is it the 190MW???
or is it the quieter engine tech and better
I mean after the money spent hope they dont collapse like the proverbial soufflé.

[Rakesh]

190MW reactor is of Indian origin, as the plan is for a HEU reactor. The French use LEU reactors. The CLWR-B2 HEU reactor from BARC will be the standard reactor design for the P75A / P77 SSN and even the S5 Class SSBN.

Where the French are coming in is with pump jet propulsion, likely combat management systems and possibly a whole lot more. French submarines are fairly quiet, rivalled only by the Americans.

What India is looking for is to lessen the build time, so these boats can enter active service quicker. We do not have time to re-invent the wheel for every system or sub-system on-board. So whatever tech we can get our hands on, we are going to go with it.

Best (but equally crude) analogy would be Barracuda-MKI French Souffle with Indian Elaichi (cardamom)

Below is *MY* Guess:

Indian Origin Kit - Reactor + Sonar (updated USHUS) + Weapons (Varunastra Torpedo; BrahMos-S, SLCM, etc in VLS Cell)..
French Origin Kit - Propeller Design, Pump Jet Propulsion, Hull Design, X-Shaped Rudder, Combat Management System, etc, etc, etc....

[SRajesh]

Elaichi Soufflé
I like it and will order 6 more

[Rakesh]

SSNs are most urgent. Thank goodness the proposal for two boats are before the CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security). This clearance will happen sometime post this coming Monday's meeting between the Indian and French NSAs.

Below is the Barracuda Class SSN (known as Suffren Class in the French Navy). Expect something similar with the P-75A / P-77 SSN. The key ingredient missing in the cutaway below is a VLS cell. And barring the VLS cell, below is what a modern multi-mission SSN is all about i.e. deploy special forces, launch UUVs, deploy a buffet of weaponry depending upon mission requirements, conduct reconnaissance, SSBN escort, CBG escort, etc, etc, etc...

India's Elaichi Soufflé will be heavier (in tonnage) and longer. I can guarantee you that. She will be a beast. No doubt about that.

Drag & Drop this picture below into new window for full size. Highly Recommended.

Image Source: https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/eu ... ren-class/

[Manish_P]

Elaichi Soufflé
I like it and will order 6 more

+1

Admiral ji, please do copyright it.

[Rakesh]

India clears mega deals worth Rs 80,000 crore for nuclear submarines, Predator drones

In a mega boost for the Indian Navy and surveillance capabilities of the defence forces, the Cabinet Committee on Security has cleared the major deals for building two nuclear submarines indigenously and buying 31 Predator drones from the US.

-Ankit

Sirjee, aap ke muh mein ghee shakar!

Multi-Mission, nuclear powered, attack submarines! Finally!

The condition of our defence procurement...getting excited over CCS approvals

SSNs are most urgent. Thank goodness the proposal for two boats are before the CCS (Cabinet Committee on Security). This clearance will happen sometime post this coming Monday's meeting between the Indian and French NSAs.

Note that this CCS approval came right after this meeting ---> viewtopic.php?p=2630662#p2630662

Elaichi Soufflé
I like it and will order 6 more

Elaichi Soufflé

Image Source: https://cooking.nytimes.com/recipes/461 ... om-souffle

[Ankit Desai]

India clears two mega defence projects for 2 indigenous nuclear submarines & 31 Predator drones
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 095147.cms
09 Oct 2024

It will take around 10-12years for the first SSN, with a 190 MW pressurised light-water reactor and a displacement of almost 10,000-tonne, to roll out. The two SSNs will be around 95% indigenous, with foreign help only being taken for some design consultancy,

.....The other four SSNs will be cleared at a later stage

-Ankit

[drnayar]

190MW reactor is of Indian origin, as the plan is for a HEU reactor. The French use LEU reactors. The CLWR-B2 HEU reactor from BARC will be the standard reactor design for the P75A / P77 SSN and even the S5 Class SSBN.

Where the French are coming in is with pump jet propulsion, likely combat management systems and possibly a whole lot more. French submarines are fairly quiet, rivalled only by the Americans.

What India is looking for is to lessen the build time, so these boats can enter active service quicker. We do not have time to re-invent the wheel for every system or sub-system on-board. So whatever tech we can get our hands on, we are going to go with it.

Best (but equally crude) analogy would be Barracuda-MKI French Souffle with Indian Elaichi (cardamom)

Below is *MY* Guess:

Indian Origin Kit - Reactor + Sonar (updated USHUS) + Weapons (Varunastra Torpedo; BrahMos-S, SLCM, etc in VLS Cell)..
French Origin Kit - Propeller Design, Pump Jet Propulsion, Hull Design, X-Shaped Rudder, Combat Management System, etc, etc, etc....

probably the French are making up for their AUKUS loss of the Australian deal [ and getting shafted by the brits ]

[Rakesh]

probably the French are making up for their AUKUS loss of the Australian deal [ and getting shafted by the brits ]

They may likely have to make up for the loss of the UAE deal as well. After the CEO of Telegram (Pavel Durov) got arrested in France, UAE cancelled the 80-aircraft Rafale deal with France. Pavel is a citizen of the UAE. And even after Durov's release, the deal is still on hold. The title of the second news article is click-bait IMVHO. Will have to wait and see how this pans out.

UAE suspends deal to buy fighter jets from France over Telegram CEO's arrest: Report
https://www.firstpost.com/world/uae-sus ... 09001.html
28 August 2024

UAE cancels $20 billion Rafale deal with France despite Telegram CEO’s release
https://www.financialexpress.com/busine ... e-3595771/
29 August 2024

[Rakesh]

Finally, India’s Homegrown SSN Project Kicks Off
https://www.livefistdefence.com/finally ... kicks-off/
10 October 2024

[maitya]

Why is this confusion wrt the displacement ... what gives??

India clears two mega defence projects for 2 indigenous nuclear submarines & 31 Predator drones

It will take around 10-12years for the first SSN, with a 190 MW pressurised light-water reactor and a displacement of almost 10,000-tonne, to roll out. The two SSNs will be around 95% indigenous, with foreign help only being taken for some design consultancy ...

AND

Finally, India’s Homegrown SSN Project Kicks Off

The Indian SSNs are said to be 6,000 tonne boats that will be powered by pressure water nuclear power reactors more capable than the type powering the two SSBNs in service.

[SRajesh]

Maityaji
Probably somewhere between the two
Around 7.5 to 8!!

[Rakesh]

Why is this confusion wrt the displacement ... what gives??

6,000 tons were most of the reports to date. Perhaps that has changed or perhaps Rajat Saar just pulled that number out of a magician's hat. We will never know the actual displacement, as the Indian Navy will likely never reveal that number. We can just guesstimate what it could be.

[SRajesh]

^^
The only issue would be if the Navy start requesting : AShM, short range anti whirly bird deterrence, underwater unmanned vehicles yada yada
Then it will become a behemoth

[sajaym]

Whatever they are developing, I hope that for f**** sake they also develop the armament for it within the donkeys years they take to build it. The last thing you wanna hear after 10 years, when they launch the SSN is..."Ahem! We're in discussion for the armament". Then you'll have the ignominious sight ...like the LCH...where we'll have a toothless SSN prowling the seas with torpedos borrowed from some decommissioned subs.

Also, I feel that within the next 10 years the 'Loyal wingman' concept will apply to SSBNs and SSNs also. So better to start developing in tandem nuclear powered UUVs like the POSEIDON so they can act as bodyguards and buddies for the SSBNs and SSNs. UUVs can also be force multipliers...

Now that we've announced the SSN project, there's no way China will keep quite... they'll accelerate production of their own SSNs and maybe give a few free to the Pakis also. Then by the time our measly 2 SSNs come out, they'll be dealing with SSNs all over our waters. There's no way you can keep pace with that except with a fleet of nuke powered UUVs.

[Rakesh]

What happened with the Kalvari (Scorpene) Class was the chosen torpedo (Blackshark) was built by a manufacturer (Whitehead Alenia Sistemi Subacquei) whose parent company was Finmeccanica. This parent company also owned AgustaWestland, which was unfortunately involved in the 2013 Indian helicopter bribery scandal. So when AgustaWestland got blacklisted, WASS was also blacklisted along with Finmeccanica. Therefore these boats were commissioned without their main weapon. That ban has now been lifted and negotiations are on to re-acquire the Blackshark.

With the SSN, the worry will not be the armament or the sensor fit. That kit will be Indian. From torpedoes to missiles in VLS cells, it will be Indian in origin. Similar with the sonar and other sensors.

[ramana]

Snip. .

But we could have started with the 83 MW reactor & the Arihant design and created a working SSN. Then iteratively build up from there

Snip ....



When I suggested that in a thread some years ago. I was called Rajni Kant.

Must be a Tamil philosopher!

[ramana]

Maitya,
Empty vs full load displacement could be.

[Rakesh]

What Are Nuclear Attack Submarines (SSN) And How Are They Different From SSBN?

[hanumadu]

India supposedly has the necessary pump jet propulsion technology for our SSNs

[Rakesh]

India supposedly has the necessary pump jet propulsion technology for our SSNs.

The problem with unchecked hubris is evident in the video above. Alpha Defense needs to stop commenting or publishing videos on topics, that he has no clue on. Above is what happens when your love for Atmanirbhar Bharat makes you take your brain out of your skull and flush it down the toilet.

This is the same disease that has infected a number of people in India's PSUs. Forever over promising and always under and/or never delivering. Any wonder why the services want imported maal?

[Ankit Desai]

-Ankit

[Rakesh]

^^^ Great Video. Thank You for posting this.

Please listen from 20:00 in the video to figure out why SSBNs cannot be mimicked fully for SSNs.

And from 44:05 in the video, some news on INS Chakra-III (the third SSN lease from Russia).

And supposedly it is Akula-2. Now I have to get the mithai

[Ankit Desai]

It is project 77.



-Ankit

[Rakesh]

Project-77: An Analysis of the Indian Navy’s Nuclear Attack Submarine Program
https://www.strategicfront.org/project- ... e-program/
26 Nov 2024

[Rahul M]

...
And supposedly it is Akula-2. Now I have to get the mithai

Still waiting.

[Rakesh]

...
And supposedly it is Akula-2. Now I have to get the mithai

Still waiting.

Saar, mithai only if it is Akula-2

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1863455800368255360 ---> Navy Chief, Admiral Tripathi says government approval for two SSNs (nuclear powered attack submarines) indicates faith in indigenous ability to design these boats in-house. Says production will galvanize industry in the larger eco system. First official words on the SSN project.

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1863463452011868378 ---> A timeline of 2036-37 is very realistic for the first SSN to be delivered. And the second one in two years from then, says Navy Chief. Many details emerging about the mega nuclear attack submarine program.

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1863467846333800723 ---> Highlights from the first official words on the Indian SSN program by Navy Chief, Admiral Tripathi. Approvals accorded for two submarines, to be indigenously designed. First to be delivered by 2036-37, second two years from then. Plans are for six SSNs in all.

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1863457659518599591 ---> Will be a huge capability enhancement when they are inducted. I have no doubt we will meet the timelines for the project - Navy Chief.

[Rakesh]

Project-77: An Analysis of the Indian Navy’s Nuclear Attack Submarine Program
https://www.strategicfront.org/project- ... e-program/
26 Nov 2024

https://x.com/Parthu_Potluri/status/1862075271144468881 ---> Thought I should revisit this thread after saying what I said in the new article (see pinned post on my profile).

It's entirely possible that the lengthening of the 'raised' dorsal section on the newer hydrodynamic models is due to NEP/Turbo-Electric Drive. It's possible that NSTL is testing the pros & cons of incorporating NEP on the future SSBN. That's why the difference in the 'hump' on these models.

NEP is serious machinery. Especially if carried alongside a traditional gearbox serving as a back-up (redundancy is important, especially for a deterrence platform). Assuming the setup could not fit within the bulkhead of the compartment that houses the other Propulsion components (which should be directly behind the Power compartment that houses the reactor), it's possible that they may have felt the need to replace that bulkhead with one that matches the profile of the ones that form the Missile compartment.

A bulkhead like that brings in extra 'headroom' that might be necessary to properly arrange the internals in the Propulsion compartment - at the cost of increasing weight/displacement. NEP/TED is also largely the reason why upcoming Western boats like Columbia or Dreadnought are turning out to be bigger/heavier than their predecessors despite carrying lesser missile armament (24>20 for US and 16>12 for UK).

I think it's safe to go with the assessment made by well-established sources that S5 would only have 12 SLBM tubes. But there might be some variance in the expected displacement figure of 13,500 tons.

We'll see. End of thought/

[Aditya_V]

The Naval Chief has confirmed apart from 3 more AIP-equipped Scorpenes and 26 Rafales, the first two SSNs will be 9,800 tonnes compared to the 6,000 to 7,000 ton Arihant Class subs. Given these also have to travel much faster than SSBN, any ideas what the power output of their reactors will be? Surely much more than the 190 MW of the Arihant Class.

[Rakesh]

Nuclear attack submarine programme will lift defence ecosystem, says Navy chief
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 982334.cms
05 Dec 2024

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1864511746029047985 --->

[Rakesh]

Indigenous nuclear attack submarine design to take 4-5 years, another five years for construction
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 959614.ece
07 Dec 2024

Last week, Navy chief Admiral Dinesh K. Tripathi said the first nuclear attack submarine would be ready by 2036-37

[maitya]

Indigenous nuclear attack submarine design to take 4-5 years, another five years for construction
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 959614.ece
07 Dec 2024

Last week, Navy chief Admiral Dinesh K. Tripathi said the first nuclear attack submarine would be ready by 2036-37

So it's official now. we will be partial-SSN-nood till 2036-37 ...
Irbis/Akula-2 is expected to arrive by 2028, will partially offset this no doubt, but for an *already* 2-Carrier Navy, we'd be needing 2 SSNs (preferably 3) pronto ...
SSNs on lease, is a very effective intermediate solution (though never an ideal one), but I doubt if mother Russia has anymore to spare e.g. the K-295/Samara etc (and no other country would even consider such an option, anyway).

Speaking of which, any reason we can't get back the Chakra-II/Nerpa as well, on another 10-year lease - was scheduled for decommissioning etc, but beggars can't be choosers, right?
After all, weren't we looking at extending the Chakra-II/Nerpa lease anyway, at one point of time?

[sohamn]

Indigenous nuclear attack submarine design to take 4-5 years, another five years for construction
https://www.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... 959614.ece
07 Dec 2024

Speaking of which, any reason we can't get back the Chakra-II/Nerpa as well, on another 10-year lease - was scheduled for decommissioning etc, but beggars can't be choosers, right?
After all, weren't we looking at extending the Chakra-II/Nerpa lease anyway, at one point of time?

Chakra-II had a lot of maintainability problems, with was making it operationally very costly to manage. Cheaper to just lease a new submarine.

[Rakesh]

Speaking of which, any reason we can't get back the Chakra-II/Nerpa as well, on another 10-year lease - was scheduled for decommissioning etc, but beggars can't be choosers, right?
After all, weren't we looking at extending the Chakra-II/Nerpa lease anyway, at one point of time?

Chakra-II had a lot of maintainability problems, with was making it operationally very costly to manage. Cheaper to just lease a new submarine.

Chakra-III is reportedly coming in with a number of Indian sub-systems on-board. So like a test bed for the first pair of Project 75/77 SSNs.

I don't know how feasible Chakra-II (Nerpa) is. The last I heard she was docked in Russia, but reportedly awaiting disposal. Used extensively by the Indian navy during the 10 year lease period.