Twin Engine Deck Based Fighter (TEDBF): News & Discussion

[basant]

IN has as good pilots, some might argue, even better than what IAF has. Cmde Balaji in fact headed ADA. It does not need to look to IAF for evaluation of aircraft.

[Manish_P]

IN has as good pilots, some might argue, even better than what IAF has. Cmde Balaji in fact headed ADA. It does not need to look to IAF for evaluation of aircraft.

Wasn't there some news about the GoI creating a single organisation for evaluation and testing of all fixed wing and rotor aircraft for the military?

[basant]

ASTE?

ASTE is a premier establishment in Indian Air Force (IAF) which conducts flight testing of aircraft, airborne systems and weapon stores prior to their induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF). Additionally, ASTE undertakes flight testing of airborne systems designed and developed by agencies such as DRDO for IAF.

AIRCRAFT AND SYSTEMS TESTING ESTABLISHMENT

IN has Naval Flight Test Squadron (NFTS)

[Manish_P]

ASTE?

ASTE is a premier establishment in Indian Air Force (IAF) which conducts flight testing of aircraft, airborne systems and weapon stores prior to their induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF). Additionally, ASTE undertakes flight testing of airborne systems designed and developed by agencies such as DRDO for IAF.

AIRCRAFT AND SYSTEMS TESTING ESTABLISHMENT

IN has Naval Flight Test Squadron (NFTS)

NATE - National Aerospace Testing Establishment

https://defence.in/threads/india-explor ... ent.10680/

[basant]

So, it is currently only a proposal of IAF?

[Rakesh]

So, it is currently only a proposal of IAF?

yes

[Manish_P]

Channeling Humphrey Appleby I would say it is a sly attempt by the IAF to be the major voice in all the testing and evaluation... which will be opposed by the other services.

And so it is better that the minister responds by saying that the proposal is under consideration and if the IAF is persistent, to assure them that it is under active consideration

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1864323479065039222 ---> Indian Navy is fully committed to TEDBF and plan to operationalise them by 2035: Navy Chief.

After reading the above, please click on the following twitter thread ---> https://x.com/Indrani1_Roy/status/1863626311929074100

[nash]

If report is true, 145 come down to 87. I hope at certain future IAF show some sense and involve in this project.

As India & France get ready to sign 7-bn Euro deal for Rafale Marine, 87 TEDBFs emerge in shadow
https://theprint.in/defence/as-india-fr ... w/2388615/
05 Dec 2024

As India & France get ready to sign 7-bn Euro deal for Rafale Marine, 87 TEDBFs emerge in shadow. Navy initially gave proposal for 145 twin-engine fighters, basing requirement on 3-carrier force, but planners believe the force should go for 2 aircraft carriers as of now.

[Rakesh]

Thank you for posting this nash. I have not seen a report of 145 TEDBFs to date. This is news to me.

Other relevant portions of the article that I would like to highlight...

The sources said, France would be obligated under contract to deliver the first Rafale Marine aircraft in 37 months from the date of signing the deal.

There were many who were claiming that because of the large order book, Dassault will be unable to deliver aircraft in a reasonable time frame i.e. 36 months (or 3 years) is the industry standard to deliver fighter aircraft. So the above timeline is right on the money. It remains to be seen if Dassault will actually deliver the first batch within that time frame. If the deal is signed in Feb 2025, the first aircraft should arrive by March 2028.

They explained the contract would also have a clause whereby within 18 months, manufacturer Dassault Aviation will showcase a Rafale Marine with the modifications the Indian Navy wanted.

This is interesting. Hopefully more clarity on the modifications in the future.

[SRajesh]

Rakesh
Can I ask a question then??
I know a lot of forumites will have my guts for garters!!
So until Rafale M comes in what is Vikrama.. and Vikrant II doing
Floating Target practiice range for all and sundry to try out practice runs!!!
Half the time Mig 29's are either not serviceable or if servicable underpowered and unable to carry full cargo!!
Why oh Why oh why oh Why??? we keeping paying money for toys that look brilliant on a Colour Foto!!!

[basant]

Gorshkov was offered as part of a package deal with the MiG-29K.

[A Deshmukh]

Gorshkov/Vikramaditya is currently under maintenance.
So, we have only 1 active carrier at this time. We have enough Mig-29Ks for now.
If RafaleM starts delivery within 3 yrs thats very good. TEDBF will take much longer timeframe.

Would Rafale be manufacturing in India? It will be difficult to achieve in 3years.
If not, then MMRCA contract looks difficult for Rafale.
We could be going with few squadrons of Su-57s. maybe HAL assembled like Su30s.

First Rafale contract has offset clauses that required help on Kaveri.
Not clear if French delivered satisfactorily on that.
Kaveri seems to be making progress without Safran (afterburner from Brahmos).

[Kartik]

Thank you for posting this nash. I have not seen a report of 145 TEDBFs to date. This is news to me.

Other relevant portions of the article that I would like to highlight...

The sources said, France would be obligated under contract to deliver the first Rafale Marine aircraft in 37 months from the date of signing the deal.

There were many who were claiming that because of the large order book, Dassault will be unable to deliver aircraft in a reasonable time frame i.e. 36 months (or 3 years) is the industry standard to deliver fighter aircraft. So the above timeline is right on the money. It remains to be seen if Dassault will actually deliver the first batch within that time frame. If the deal is signed in Feb 2025, the first aircraft should arrive by March 2028.

They explained the contract would also have a clause whereby within 18 months, manufacturer Dassault Aviation will showcase a Rafale Marine with the modifications the Indian Navy wanted.

This is interesting. Hopefully more clarity on the modifications in the future.

This is exactly what I was telling those like Alpha Defense and others who were saying that due to Dassault's large backlog, the Navy's Rafales couldn't be delivered till 2030 or so. I was insisting that if a company takes on an order it is their obligation to deliver on time or else penalties would be in order.

There are slots allocated to customers based on when they place their orders. Exports having priority over domestic orders in general will most likely mean that the French Air Force's Rafale slots will be allocated to the IN. Long lead items like the heavy forgings will be ordered upto 36 months in advance based on the production slots.

So my guess is - the IN will first receive 4 Rafale D fighters for training purposes. Those can go onto the assembly line earlier given their long lead items would've been ordered. The 22 Rafale M fighters will follow after that, with nearly 80% commonality of parts with the Rafale C.

[Aditya_V]

Sir contracts while good like GE404, INS Vikram Aditya deals are not worth the paper they are written on, unless there is an alternative, so contract for supply of grains , penalty can be imposed, it can hardly be done with fighter Aircraft since we would need to run our Rafale's till the 2050's.
While there is a lot of myth, including most Western defense suppliers have always supplied with delays with respect to critical technology.

[Cyrano]

^^^agree. Dassault will commit to any "industry standard" timelines to sign the deal. Then they will gain 6-12 months in some pilot training plan on their CDG carrier. Then come India specific enhancements their specifications, Dev, testing and acceptance on 1 or 2 birds. This can get them another 12-36 months depending on what those enhancements are.

Not trivialising but this is the same game IT cos play with clients. And there's more and more SW in these planes.

All that said, how many other signed clients/contracts being negotiated does Dassault currently have for Rafale M? My guess is none. So M specific component or subsystems mfg like undercarriage etc may not be on the critical path. Given the very high degree of commonality between Rafale variants, almost everything else including M88 engines, fuselage , avionics ityadi and final assembly, integration will be on critical path between competing orders.

Unless Dassault comes up with another assembly line I find it hard to believe they will deliver on time to IN just because they signed on the dotted line. Penalities can't create miracles.