Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[SSridhar]

The HGV test came as a welcome bolt from the blue. Don't know the new missile's name yet.

Nikhil's paanwala predictions for November are coming true one by one. LRAShBM, Guided-Pinaka and now the HGV. Still about two weeks are left for this month to end and more fireworks can happen!

Certainly looking forward to ER-AAM.

[sajaym]

https://pib.gov.in/PressReleasePage.aspx?PRID=2073994

DRDO carries out successful flight-trial of India’s first long-range hypersonic missile off the Odisha coast
Posted On: 17 NOV 2024 9:45AM by PIB Delhi
Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) conducted a successful flight-trial of India’s first long-range hypersonic missile from Dr APJ Abdul Kalam Island off the coast of Odisha late on November 16, 2024. This hypersonic missile is designed to carry various payloads for ranges greater than 1,500 kms for the Armed Forces.
The missile was tracked by various range systems, deployed in multiple domains. The flight data obtained from down range ship stations confirmed the successful terminal maneuvers and impact with high degree of accuracy.

This missile has been indigenously developed by the laboratories of Dr APJ Abdul Kalam Missile complex, Hyderabad along with various other DRDO laboratories and Industry Partners. The flight-trial was carried out in the presence of senior scientists of DRDO and officers of the Armed Forces.

[drnayar]

India successfully tests hypersonic anti-ship ballistic missile.

https://youtube.com/shorts/lioeE4TlJb0? ... yK8j4UCvBF

Some sort of nose cap spinning!.. Maybe our gurus can identify?... Ballistic missiles are hypersonic anyway, I presume a quasi ballistic trajectory like the pralay. Also interesting shaping

Correction : it is seems to be a HGV.. Any info regarding the trajectory?... So not ballistic trajectory?

[Ashokk]

India successfully tests hypersonic anti-ship ballistic missile.

https://youtube.com/shorts/lioeE4TlJb0? ... yK8j4UCvBF

Some sort of nose cap spinning!.. Maybe our gurus can identify?... Ballistic missiles are hypersonic anyway, I presume a quasi ballistic trajectory like the pralay. Also interesting shaping

Possibly a Drag-reducing aerospike

[ashthor]

A comment on x was...nose cap of the container

[sanman]

Some sort of nose cap spinning!.. Maybe our gurus can identify?... Ballistic missiles are hypersonic anyway, I presume a quasi ballistic trajectory like the pralay. Also interesting shaping

Hypersonic in the context of missiles doesn't merely refer to velocity, but also refers to the ability to do aerodynamic maneuvering rather than traveling in a purely ballistic path which is more readily predicted and thus more susceptible to interception.

Correction : it is seems to be a HGV.. Any info regarding the trajectory?... So not ballistic trajectory?

HGV is by definition non-ballistic trajectory with unpowered descent.

What I'd love to see -- and we'll be waiting a long time for it -- is a scramjet-powered hypersonic cruise missile.

[Haridas]

A comment on x was...nose cap of the container

That launch tube top disc cover on its tip is a freak coincidence, it did not fall off even after booster firing. Will be difficult to replicate in future.

So this is proper Hypersonic two stage missile with significant proportion of booster (unlike sagarika/K15). Has midbody fins for substantial glide efficiency at 30km cruise altitude. Nice progression from K15.

[Haridas]

RM has confirmed the test of LRAshBM, with BGV. It reminds me of Prithvi, and graphs from Arun_s
https://x.com/DefenceMinIndia/status/18 ... 2453983543

Yes it draws from K15. Albeit much better glide ratio (at all altitudes and speed) and maneuvering.

White paint on forebody hides the actual carbon-carbon nose cone (not just nose tip).

While cruise is Hypersonic, on target it will be not.

JMT

[Haridas]

And here is my presentation at a BRF meet, from 14 yrs ago.

https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/em ... SAiEjiBSnp

[drnayar]

A comment on x was...nose cap of the container

That launch tube top disc cover on its tip is a freak coincidence, it did not fall off even after booster firing. Will be difficult to replicate in future.

So this is proper Hypersonic two stage missile with significant proportion of booster (unlike sagarika/K15). Has midbody fins for substantial glide efficiency at 30km cruise altitude. Nice progression from K15.

thanks for the explanation, Arun ..it looked like a 21st century Sudarshan Chakra spinning on top !

[Nikhil_Naya]

The HGV test came as a welcome bolt from the blue. Don't know the new missile's name yet.

Nikhil's paanwala predictions for November are coming true one by one. LRAShBM, Guided-Pinaka and now the HGV. Still about two weeks are left for this month to end and more fireworks can happen!

Certainly looking forward to ER-AAM.

Well all I can say with certainty is that we are in for some
Surprises. Some of the tests over the next few weeks won’t need NOTAM’s.

Also LM-ER. As of now that’s all I can say. .

[mody]

Fantastic news!!! The HGV and the Manik Based Long Range CM will prove to be game changers. The HGV can be used for anti-ship and land attack roles.
The counters of the Indian Rocket force are being laid out. Now the next task would be ramp up the production capacity for Manik engines. The successful firing of the guided Pinaka rockets also give a nice boost. Now onto the longer range versions. Godspeed.

[ernest]

And here is my presentation at a BRF meet, from 14 yrs ago.

https://www.slideshare.net/slideshow/em ... SAiEjiBSnp

Thanks, Haridas ji.
The exact slide this test video reminded me of is #30-"Indian precursor of BGRV" (in the presentation you shared)

[drnayar]

Almost no other country has deployed hypersonic weapons aboard their warships., this would make the INs warships truly potent extending their reach and fire power

[AdityaM]

Is this an air breathing scramjet missile, or was it a fuel burning rocket powered hypersonic ?

[Jayram]

Good article for the basics - Seems we have tested the rocket booster propelled HGV. Paradoxically the further these missiles are launched from the target the harder they would be to intercept during the boost phase (dues to distance and time to intercept) and therefore better for long range security.
https://swarajyamag.com/defence/explai ... -need-them

[SSridhar]

Is this an air breathing scramjet missile, or was it a fuel burning rocket powered hypersonic ?

That scramjet powered hypersonic Cruise Missile is on the way because a few years back, DRDO successfully demonstrated HSTDV. DRDO has setup a hypersonic wind tunnel too at Hyderabad. But this test was not that.

[basant]

DRDO to develop this air-to-air missile that will give edge to IAF in engaging hostile aircrafts

As for the Astra MkII, its development is nearing completion. The missile promises greater range and accuracy, thanks to advancements in missile technology. Astra MkII also benefits from streamlined research and development, which will reduce the time and resources required to validate its design.
...
The projected Astra MkIV is set to mark a revolution in air-to-air missile technology. Designed with high-speed stealth platforms in mind, the new missile is expected to become operational by the late 2030s.

According to sources in the defense industry, DRDO has begun the early stages of defining the technological requirements for the Astra MkIV.

[Aditya_V]

While good it's high time Astra Mk2 is ordered and mk3 is developed and inducted over the next 3yrs while mk4 can be developed over the next 7-9 years

[williams]

https://www.cnn.com/2024/11/17/india/in ... index.html

World is taking notice.

[nash]

Astra Mk 1: Solid-propellant rocket
Astra Mk.2: Dual-thrust pulsed rocket motor
Astra Mk.3: Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet

IMO if there is any Astra Mk4 then it might be booster+scramjet and the same concept we can see in SAM also.

[siddhu]

A comment on x was...nose cap of the container

That launch tube top disc cover on its tip is a freak coincidence, it did not fall off even after booster firing. Will be difficult to replicate in future.

So this is proper Hypersonic two stage missile with significant proportion of booster (unlike sagarika/K15). Has midbody fins for substantial glide efficiency at 30km cruise altitude. Nice progression from K15.

Will this not effect the aerodynamics & intake?
Design must be robust.

[tandav]

A comment on x was...nose cap of the container

That launch tube top disc cover on its tip is a freak coincidence, it did not fall off even after booster firing. Will be difficult to replicate in future.

So this is proper Hypersonic two stage missile with significant proportion of booster (unlike sagarika/K15). Has midbody fins for substantial glide efficiency at 30km cruise altitude. Nice progression from K15.

Its not a freak coincidence. The flat disc on top of the aerospike is part of the standard design of aerospikes for ICBMs. Trident ICBMs have had this design since 1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-reducing_aerospike

[ashthor]

That launch tube top disc cover on its tip is a freak coincidence, it did not fall off even after booster firing. Will be difficult to replicate in future.

So this is proper Hypersonic two stage missile with significant proportion of booster (unlike sagarika/K15). Has midbody fins for substantial glide efficiency at 30km cruise altitude. Nice progression from K15.

Its not a freak coincidence. The flat disc on top of the aerospike is part of the standard design of aerospikes for ICBMs. Trident ICBMs have had this design since 1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-reducing_aerospike

is it not too big? on the 11th second in the video you see it fall down

[nits]

A comment on x was...nose cap of the container

That launch tube top disc cover on its tip is a freak coincidence, it did not fall off even after booster firing. Will be difficult to replicate in future.

So this is proper Hypersonic two stage missile with significant proportion of booster (unlike sagarika/K15). Has midbody fins for substantial glide efficiency at 30km cruise altitude. Nice progression from K15.

Its the Sudarshan Chakra blessing the new Brahmastra in making.....

[sohamn]

To temper the enthusiasm a bit ...

This is a HGV or hypersonic glide vehicle, where it flies an initial ballistic trajectory (rocket motor), a powered and maneuvering hypersonic cruise phase (scramjet) at high altitudes of 80k feet or more, and then a 1.5-2 mach supersonic terminal phase that is unpowered and acts like a glider. While, it certainly reduces the time to detection and interception, it is certainly interceptable in its terminal phase. Both of our neighbours have SAMs that can intercept this big of a non stealthy target travelling supersonic say at few thousand feet. At terminal phases, it's almost like a small fighter jet that is travelling at supersonic speeds.

What would be truly groundbreaking is a hypersonic cruise missile or HCM that travels at Mach 5 or more at target making interception extremely difficult.

-- Also, the disk on the nose is not an aerospike, and HGVs can't have aero spikes as it will affect their air intakes of the scramjet. Its just the canister lid not separating immediately after launch - something that will be fixed in the next test.

[ashthor]

Sudarshan Chakra....will separate in the terminal phase and do its job if the mizzle is shotdown....then it will return home.

[sudeepj]

To temper the enthusiasm a bit ...

This is a HGV or hypersonic glide vehicle, where it flies an initial ballistic trajectory (rocket motor), a powered and maneuvering hypersonic cruise phase (scramjet) at high altitudes of 80k feet or more, and then a 1.5-2 mach supersonic terminal phase that is unpowered and acts like a glider. While, it certainly reduces the time to detection and interception, it is certainly interceptable in its terminal phase. Both of our neighbours have SAMs that can intercept this big of a non stealthy target travelling supersonic say at few thousand feet. At terminal phases, it's almost like a small fighter jet that is travelling at supersonic speeds.

What is the basis for that statement?

[Haridas]

That launch tube top disc cover on its tip is a freak coincidence, it did not fall off even after booster firing. Will be difficult to replicate in future.

Its not a freak coincidence. The flat disc on top of the aerospike is part of the standard design of aerospikes for ICBMs. Trident ICBMs have had this design since 1970s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drag-reducing_aerospike

Not correct. Later news report have confirmed my assessment.

I know what aerospike is and how it is designed. The aerospike blunt tip is small fraction of missile cone diameter behind it. In this case the tip disc is way bigger and the spike not long enough to be meaningful.

Secondly the spike blunt body is always rigid, not the wobbling disc one sees in the video.

[Nalla Baalu]

It was an impressive balancing act by the test vehicle while it was upright. As Ashthor pointed out few posts above: In the video, you can notice silhouette of two semicircular pieces tumbling on the right hand side of the booster flames and exhaust (presumably following the start of pitching maneuver)

[Haridas]

To temper the enthusiasm a bit ...

This is a HGV or hypersonic glide vehicle, where it flies an initial ballistic trajectory (rocket motor), a powered and maneuvering hypersonic cruise phase (scramjet) at high altitudes of 80k feet or more, and then a 1.5-2 mach supersonic terminal phase that is unpowered and acts like a glider. While, it certainly reduces the time to detection and interception, it is certainly interceptable in its terminal phase. Both of our neighbours have SAMs that can intercept this big of a non stealthy target travelling supersonic say at few thousand feet. At terminal phases, it's almost like a small fighter jet that is travelling at supersonic speeds.

What is the basis for that statement?

Physics 101 onlee. Soham is largely correct.

ROCKSIM simulation indicates the booster takes it to M 5. The sustainer takes it to final speed.that is much more than M 9, however during substantial portion of hypersonic glide it's at M 9.

Now these kind of missiles can be made to fly in different profile.
1. Low flying hypersonic, where missile does not fly higher than cruise altitude of ~30km. This is most difficult to detect but shorter max range.

2. Max range is in quasi ballistic range, where it is lofted to higher altitude of about 90km, (booster takes it to M 5 @16km altitude, and sustainer to M 11 and 90km altitude. After it descends to 25km, (@ ~800 km) it starts porpoise trajectory, where speed bleeds off, eventually ending in low supersonic regime. The lofted profile allows LoS visibility over long range to enemy radar to detect the big booster tumbling down. The main stage however is quite small RCS (in frontal perspective). Targeting short of max range, the hit speed can be quite high in the hypersonic range.

[drnayar]

What is the basis for that statement?

Physics 101 onlee. Soham is largely correct.

ROCKSIM simulation indicates the booster takes it to M 5. The sustainer takes it to final speed.that is much more than M 9, however during substantial portion of hypersonic glide it's at M 9.

Now these kind of missiles can be made to fly in different profile.
1. Low flying hypersonic, where missile does not fly higher than cruise altitude of ~30km. This is most difficult to detect but shorter max range.

2. Max range is in quasi ballistic range, where it is lofted to higher altitude of about 90km, (booster takes it to M 5 @16km altitude, and sustainer to M 11 and 90km altitude. After it descends to 25km, (@ ~800 km) it starts porpoise trajectory, where speed bleeds off, eventually ending in low supersonic regime. The lofted profile allows LoS visibility over long range to enemy radar to detect the big booster tumbling down. The main stage however is quite small RCS (in frontal perspective). Targeting short of max range, the hit speed can be quite high in the hypersonic range.

@ Arun

i am curious about the targeting and sensor cues ., now if it is indeed directed at an aircraft carrier, it should be in the longer range profile with low supersonic endgame ? If at a stationary target go for shorter ranges and make use of the higher kinetic energy ?

if i say the real time sensor update will be needed for an AC strike , the time to target needs to be more ? .. or maybe it needs higher levels of data processing and more control surfaces but it defeats hypersonic aerodynamics ?

i am also reminded the Zircons end trajectories are seemingly predictable with the patriots able to take them down in the terminal phase .

[Haridas]

ABM or similar AD depend on having enough time for OODA loop. Thus missile that gives shortest detection to hit time will win.
Manuvering makes the ABM effectiveness bubble shrink, so does closing speed; it does never become ineffective zero.

Hypersonic maneuver need v hi G to do manuvering. IIRC MARV at much higher speed do 50 to 200G.

Patriots have a small protection bubble, how many can you pepper spray in the countryside?

[drnayar]

ABM or similar AD depend on having enough time for OODA loop. Thus missile that gives shortest detection to hit time will win.
Manuvering makes the ABM effectiveness bubble shrink, so does closing speed; it does never become ineffective zero.

Hypersonic maneuver need v hi G to do manuvering. IIRC MARV at much higher speed do 50 to 200G.

Patriots have a small protection bubble, how many can you pepper spray in the countryside?

so whats the sweet spot here, i guess the priority is manoeuvring if in a dense AD region, or if its paki land go straight for the kill [ use all that 9 mach kinetic energy onto Sargodha ] ?

that also brings an interesting question as to whether the terminal manoeuvring can be programmed separately ? ..launch each missile with different "styles? ?.. interesting scenario for the prospective AD systems

[Ashokk]

https://x.com/Mrcool63040811/status/1859496714333520261

New Notam has been issued for a Missile Test

[Ashokk]

https://x.com/Mrcool63040811

[sohamn]

Answering some of the questions based on open source knowledge

- How does a HGV do target acquisition?
A: Onboarding and land based sensors are not powerful enough to actively target a moving asset like an AC. While, this might not be a problem for a LACM where it might be targeting a static asset like say a bunker - its a challenge for a moving target like a AC. Most of the guidance in the mid course phase needs to be done via satellites and drones - that would feed real time data to the HGV.

- What is the big improvement with HGV that we can't do with say a subsonic or supersonic missile?
A: The main advantage is time to detection and interception, we would be a matter of 15 mins to cover say a range of 1500 kms and since its maneuvers mid course - it may be difficult to understand the intended target. It also provides long stand-off distances compared to say a Brahmos or a Harpoon, providing cover to the squadron shooting it. HGVs can maneuver like Brahmos but any highG moves will bleed up its speed even more.

- What are the disadvantages?
A: The supersonic unpowered final phase would make it susceptible to good ADs like SM6, or Barak 8. These SAMs generally travel faster that HGV's at terminal phase. Also, since most HGV's follow a HHL trajectory to achieve range, it would be detected quite early via a powerful radar like Aegis or GreenPine.

HGV's are not a panacea to navals battlefield problems, but its a step in the right direction. Now that we have demonstrated that we can have a missile that can turn on its scramjet engine for 20 seconds achieving Mach 6 or more - the next steps are
a) Scramjet for 400 seconds ( DRDO announced it already )
b) Materials to sustain high friction and high temperature on the duration of the entire flight and denser atmosphere.

When we truely have a HCM, that is hypersonic at terminal phase, we will achieve complete naval superiority in IOR in the surface level. No chinese ship can be secure if they cross the Malacca straits - because with current technology hypersonic cruise missiles can't be intercepted at all. And since the main target will be ACs and Destoyers, cost won't be a factor here. i.e. if the HCM is 5x cost of Brahmos, its still fine because it will be 1/100 cost of a AC and we would need only few dozen's to deter the entire chinese surface fleet.

[prashantsharma]

My understanding is that a hypersonic missile in it's hypersonic phase of flight is, due to the ionised layer around it, unable to use on board sensors or receive updates from other sensors through a data link. At this stage it can only use INS. Hence if it has to remain hypersonic in it's final stages, then it can't be used against moving targets. If one wants to use it against moving targets, then it has to be slowed down, which makes it vulnerable to AD.
To my knowledge no one has solved or found a work around to make the sensors or data links work through the ionisation layer.

[sanman]

Astra Mk 1: Solid-propellant rocket
Astra Mk.2: Dual-thrust pulsed rocket motor
Astra Mk.3: Solid Fuel Ducted Ramjet

IMO if there is any Astra Mk4 then it might be booster+scramjet and the same concept we can see in SAM also.

What about what US Navy has done with adapting its Standard Mk3 missile for being carried on F-18 ?

Range matters, and that's the record-holder by far.

[sanjayc]

Sudarshan Chakra....will separate in the terminal phase and do its job if the mizzle is shotdown....then it will return home.

Americans were asking Indians to cap its missile program. Indians obliged by putting a cap on its missiles.