Deep State: What They Want, What Threat They Pose

[sanman]

What does the American Deep State want? And what threat do they pose to India?
What are their contours and limits? Who is connected with them and aligned with them?

[Hriday]

Admins and others, a request. Is there any thread that discusses the major events that happen in Western society? I am surprised that the subject is ignored here.
For eg, below is a summary of events. Presently woke culture is spreading in Western society with govt support. Almost open border policy in many Western countries for criminals, and Islamic extremists and the resultant civilian chaos and casualties. British govt attempted to release criminals and put in jail the anti-immigrant protestors. Ban of social media giant X (Twitter) in Brazil. Californian law started to separate children from parents on the issue of gender identity.

Several in the forum disagree with the concept of Deep State and related literature. So if anyone can rename this thread or start a new thread, that will be useful. I don't think I will be able to contribute continuously on this subject, so I am not creating a new thread.

[Mort Walker]

Any discussion should be confined to how it impacts India. There’s plenty to go on.

[fanne]

what is deep state? Who are deep state?

[bala]

^^ there are enough YTs on the topic, look up Aadi Achint who explains it well. Just FYI the Deep State existed long back and they were involved in the BritShitRaj loot of India along with other colonial adventures by others around the world.

They have unaccounted money running into several 100s T worth and just their return on their holding runs into 10s of T. So the clout they have is enormous and they operate very clandestinely since they have their people embedded everywhere in every nook and cranny of the world.

[sanman]

what is deep state? Who are deep state?

Deep State comprises all the Babu-dom of the USA. All the babus of the bureaucracy together.

And they too have different factions with ties to various lobbies. They're part of how lobbies can exert their influence on the behaviour of govt.
Various lobbies have over time tried to get their own people into that deep state bureaucracy to hold influence there. And they also hire those people when they leave govt, for a revolving-door relationship.

And they are of course unelected while collectively wielding vast power.

[Hriday]

There is a need for a thread titled, Major events that affect society in the West, Africa, Eastern Europe etc - News and discussion. Is there a better name?

Hope somebody starts such a thread. Remember Modi's charge against Congress in the last elections? He said that Cong want to give assets of Hindus to illegal Islamic immigrants in India. Exactly that is happening in many EU nations and in USA. And we have Pakistan and Bangladesh in economic misery and a population eager to migrate to India.

Thus learning what is happening in western world would be very useful.

[Hriday]

There is a need for a thread titled, Major events that affect society in the West, Africa, Eastern Europe etc - News and discussion. Is there a better name?

Hope somebody starts such a thread. Remember Modi's charge against Congress in the last elections? He said that Cong want to give assets of Hindus to illegal Islamic immigrants in India. Exactly that is happening in many EU nations and in USA. And we have Pakistan and Bangladesh in economic misery and a population eager to migrate to India.

Thus learning what is happening in western world would be very useful.

https://x.com/MarioNawfal/status/183182 ... mtXDg&s=19

CHUCK SCHUMER: OUR GOAL IS CITIZENSHIP FOR ALL 11M UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS

"The only way we're going to have a great future in America is if we welcome and embrace immigrants, the dreamers, and all of them.

Our ultimate goal is to help the dreamers but also create a path to citizenship for all 11 million or however many undocumented immigrants are here."

Source: @Breaking911

Where to put the above type of news and the discussion or news of their impact on the society ?

[Mort Walker]

what is deep state? Who are deep state?

I’m going to quote what Eric Weinstein, physicist & investor, who recently answered this question during a podcast in a very unique way:

It's an interlocking series of agreements, tacit understandings, explicit understandings, clandestine understandings, about how the most important structures keep the world free of war and keep markets open. And there has been a system in place, whether understood explicitly or behind the scenes or implicitly. It says that the purpose of the two american parties is to prune the field of populist candidates so that whatever two candidates exist in a face off are both acceptable to that world order. So what you're trying to do from the point of view, let's take it from the point of view of, let's say, the State department, the intelligence community, the Defense department, and major corporations, that have to do with international issues, from arms trade to, oh, I dont know, food.

They have a series of agreements that are fragile and could be overturned if a president entered the Oval Office who didnt agree with them. And the mood of the country was, why do we pay taxes into these structures? Why are we hamstrung? Why arent we a free people? So what the two parties would do is they would run primaries. You have populist candidates, and you'd pre commit the populist candidates to support the candidates who won the primaries, as long as that took place. And you had two candidates that were both acceptable to the international order, that is, that they aren't going to rethink NAFTA or NATO or what have you. We called that democracy. And so democracy was the illusion of choice, what's called magicians choice, where the choice is not actually, you know, pick a card, any card, but somehow the magician makes sure that the card that you pick is the one that he knows. In that situation, you have magicians choice in the primaries, and then you'd have the duopoly field, two candidates, either of which was acceptable, and you could actually afford to hold an election, and the populace would vote.

[bala]

YTs on deep state

Adi Achint
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebSHZq-dIQ8

Major Gen Rajiv Narayanan

Global Deep State
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFDgMxbHrYE

Deep State and subverting Bharat
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xwHSMyGTz6c

[sanman]

Good chat with Prof Jeffrey Sachs - worth a listen:

[sanman]

Deep State is now targeting Elon Musk - for his sin of endorsing Trump and accepting his offer for a cabinet position dealing with downsizing govt and improving efficiency

https://www.indiatoday.in/science/story ... 2024-09-11

We Will Never Get to Mars: Musk Hits at US Government Over Starship Delay​

https://arstechnica.com/space/2024/09/s ... -november/

Space X Says Regulators Will Keep Starship Grounded until At Least November


Musk & SpaceX complain that US Federal authorities are throwing up artificial obstacles to obstruct and delay the launch of their next-generation Starship vehicle until late November, after the US elections are over.
Obviously in such a tight election race, the Biden whitehouse is desperate to deny Musk any potential victorious achievements that could be capitalized upon at the expense of the ruling establishment.

[SBajwa]

what is deep state? Who are deep state?

State Department, CIA , part of Media and assorted Babus.

[ramana]

WRT India they are creating troubles in the near neighborhood to keep India down.
- They abandoned Afghanistan with $80B arms hoping they would make a beeline to Kashmir and bog down India. So far Indian relations with Afghanistan are neutral if not warm.
- Next it was Sri Lanka became bankrupt under Rajapakse Hope was they would oppress Tamils and re-ignite LTTE-type trouble. Not happening
- Next is reviving Muslim terrorism in Sri Lanka directed towards TN. Need to watch.
- Next was the Maldives, which had an "India out" campaign by Muizu.
- Myanmar has many mutinies. Spillover into Manipur. Today India cancelled the previous visa-free agreement. This should limit the Kukis.
- We all know about Sheikh Hasina ouster by US-supported BNP and Jamait. In fact, US pledged funds to revive bankrupt BD and had WB agree to $2B 'aid"
- Nepal is swinging like a cat on a hot tin roof between China and India.

So all these need tact and maturity to deal with. The reduced LS minority of 240 makes every joker in India an expert who demands his pound of flesh.
Add to that, Modiji is a peaceful person who doesn't even use lawful methods to control problems. He doesn't want termagents to become mahan. eg Kejriwal or Jihadidi who are begging to be dismissed so can play the victim card.
The good thing is that 100 days are over and many things accomplished on - the economic front, infrastructure, foreign affairs, and minority issues. Already ONOP as goal declared.

[ramana]

They are also lighting fires around China too
- Philippines is belligerent
- Vietnam the CP secy died and there is a gap in the transition
- China's economy is a mess with sanctions on sanctions.

[ramana]

A good discussion by Mesrsheimer and Sachs


https://x.com/DiarioBitcoin/status/1835 ... HTLKA&s=19

[sanman]

WRT India they are creating troubles in the near neighborhood to keep India down.

Please see 32:45 of the following video



US can't allow China to become regional hegemon, because then China will be free to roam.

Likewise, US saw India reaching similar position of regional hegemon, so that India was becoming free to roam (meddling in Ukraine-Russia)
That's why Global Hegemon US screwed us with Bangla backstab, to send us into a tailspin back into our corner.

The only way I can see to break out of Global Hegemon US-made trap is for would-be/not-quite regional hegemons to put their heads together and help each other to roam, so long as each stays away from roaming towards the other.

Ramana, not long back you had posted a nice article by Alexander Dugin, describing the conflict between Global Hegemon and other poles of power.
What kind of advice would he give?

[bala]

WRT India they are creating troubles in the near neighborhood to keep India down.

Chanakya's principle was based on this dictum. He created trouble for neighbouring kingdoms by attacking around their border areas. To stem the reverse onslaught he had a different strategy. He would protect the bordering entities from their enemy on the other side. India should use this technique. Nepal, Bhutan, Sri Lanka, BD, etc must be given a pact saying that they don't need an army to protect them, instead India protects them. This would ensure that no one can park themselves in these nations other than India. It saves these small countries in maintaining an army. India can recruit some of them into the division that protects them. These small countries are also integrated economically with India, they can use Rupee as currency. Effectively though they are independent, they depend on India for protection and are fully integrated economically. Time for EAM/PM to start this process.

[S_Madhukar]

And this happened because they see NaPakis bogging down Bharat in JK and us doing bhai chara day in day out. A defanged snake is just a plaything that even rats will enjoy with . Economic integration with out dandneeti will mean we have to bow to their demands. We have to treat every non Bharatiya as a barbarian who didn’t understand us and be willing to “ educate” and then integrate them

[sanman]

Elon Musk is publicly calling for the resignation of the FAA chief, accusing him of directly telling lies during Congressional testimony:

[sanman]

[sanman]

Why is Pannu screeching that Russia is to blame for propaganda against Khalistan?
Since when have Khalistanis ever had any problem with Russia?
To me this again proves that Pannu is agent of Deep State, since they're the main ones who hate Russia.

Also, local police in Brampton are telling the Hindu temples that they'll have to pay if they want security for their events.
India needs to start charging Canadians for security then too.

[drnayar]

We need a thread to keep track of Donalds promises, quite a few is kneecapping the deep state

[drnayar]

Why is Pannu screeching that Russia is to blame for propaganda against Khalistan?

[youtube]SWgnmldMfP4[/youtube

Pannu is increasingly looking like a mouthpiece of someone that's part of "deep state" [ not necessarily the official CIA but a part of it ! ] .. but that's exactly what he is , he would be bumped off once he has outlived his usefulness.

[Vayutuvan]

... he would be bumped off once he has outlived his usefulness.

aaand India will be blamed yet again as is their wont.

[sanman]

Trump's remarks on Deep State

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=26OHYYyQRes

[disha]

Couple of inputs on deep state. Generally deep state refers to a shadow state within a state that forces a course of thought or action or both. Generally as the republic gets older, the state acquires a deep state. Sometimes known as the foggy bottom in US or in former UK the mandarins of the treasury. They could be the handlers of the crown as well.Even India has a deep state. It was called NBaJhoPaJudge (Neta-Babu-Jholawala-Pandu-Judge by a poster with pseudonym RahulM - I think). Originally the deep state concept started from the so-called left and is now adapted by the so-called right.

Wiki calls the Deep State as conspiracy theory where per theory there is a clandestine network of members of the federal government, particularly with members in FBI and CIA. In cahoots with societal and financial elites. Ironically, wiki itself is a "deep state", wiki has been subverted by its own gate keepers. Here is the wikipedia's own deep state fighting against OpIndia https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/wikiped ... d-to-know/

Couple of years back, even stating that there is a Deep state would result in one being cancelled. Even on this forum, to talk about deep state riles up some!

Since US is the oldest democracy and has bureaucracy A little bit of history is in order. Prior to 1881, there was no civil service running the executive within US. The president could pick anyone to run US. That changed in 1881. James Garfield, then president of US was shot by a man who thought he deserved some post. The US Congress created the civil service, with highly talented and skilled personnel with allegiance to the country. They were suppossedly to give only policy advice, but once the policy was decided, they will do whatever it takes to carry the policy.

This has echos in the IAS structure of India. Except that the IAS in India is beholden to the ways of the Raj. And hence they are loyal to the Raj, even after the british has no Raj. Particularly when the IAS felt that they had more expertise than the incoming administration and felt disloyal to the incoming government and actively sabotaged efforts of the Indian government. This is the nature of the Indian deep state.

Same pattern can be discerned in the American Deep state. When they had conflict between their own perceived expertise and superiority vis-a-vis loyalty to the executive (President).

After 1881, once the civil service was established, the next big turning point in US was the great depression. During and aftermath of great depression, the civil service was expanded and saw several specialists. Also of note is the dust bowl phenomenon of mid-west where specialists were incorporated in to the civil service (agriculture/USDA).

I still have to read the book Washington Confidential, published in 1951, it includes coverage of inner workings of the US government agencies. Ironically, the authors were working for the newspaper magnate Hearst. It presented the US Civil service as a domain of "mediocrity and anonymity" and a den of "economical parasites". This is no different from civil services of any country. So what leads to the deep state?

Its the inner workings of the agencies not being transparent, for example the very word "foggy bottom" indicates opaqueness in the working of the state department, and the actions of the agencies contrary to the policy or the intention of the public and at various times inimical to the public leads to the function of some which can be called deep state.

Let's take the case of the NPA ayotollahs. They have spent their entire career trying to come up with cap-rollback-eliminate Indian nuclear program. And they will try to find ways and means that can be leveraged to do a CRE of Indian nuclear program. This same group will try to sabotage any reproachment between US and India on nuclear energy. This is a function of deep state.

The deep state in this instance consists of baboos and politicos who are trying to preserve their legacy, say or jobs. Or careers. Another example of the deep state will be accusing the president and its team as russian stooge (or toadies). Just because the deep state of MIC+financiers+rich elites want to carry forward their own agenda.

In that sense, the deep state is both amorphous and hydra headed.

To the question on what they want, a simple test will be what will be hurt caused to a segment of functionaries (politicos, civil servants, financiers) if a particular policy is chosen or not chosen.

An example will be say the policy of climate change and net zero emissions. Gretas from Norway will be trotted out and even the US prez will spout nonsense at a foreign host, just so that a stated policy of climate change is pushed forward. The civil servants, the financiers and the politicos see some benefit in pushing that angle.

I posit, and have posited in other threads at severe risk of being misunderstood, that the deep state is amorphous, is hydra headed and has now evolved to the point that it has become a self-serving beast. It has its factions and not all factions are on the same page, and that is why it feels that the country (US here) is war within itself and with everyone else.

[disha]

Sanman'ji, thanks for starting this thread. I hope it is an eye-opener to everyone.

[disha]

WRT India they are creating troubles in the near neighborhood to keep India down.
- They abandoned Afghanistan with $80B arms hoping they would make a beeline to Kashmir and bog down India. So far Indian relations with Afghanistan are neutral if not warm.
- Next it was Sri Lanka became bankrupt under Rajapakse Hope was they would oppress Tamils and re-ignite LTTE-type trouble. Not happening
- Next is reviving Muslim terrorism in Sri Lanka directed towards TN. Need to watch.
- Next was the Maldives, which had an "India out" campaign by Muizu.
- Myanmar has many mutinies. Spillover into Manipur. Today India cancelled the previous visa-free agreement. This should limit the Kukis.
- We all know about Sheikh Hasina ouster by US-supported BNP and Jamait. In fact, US pledged funds to revive bankrupt BD and had WB agree to $2B 'aid"
- Nepal is swinging like a cat on a hot tin roof between China and India.

So all these need tact and maturity to deal with. The reduced LS minority of 240 makes every joker in India an expert who demands his pound of flesh.
Add to that, Modiji is a peaceful person who doesn't even use lawful methods to control problems. He doesn't want termagents to become mahan. eg Kejriwal or Jihadidi who are begging to be dismissed so can play the victim card.
The good thing is that 100 days are over and many things accomplished on - the economic front, infrastructure, foreign affairs, and minority issues. Already ONOP as goal declared.

The faction which wants to see a different world order and not entirely inimical to India (as of yet) is coming to power.

So what does the outgoing deep state does? It brings the world to the brink of nuclear war!

Ukraine fired six long range missiles into Russia. Russia can escalate with a nuclear strike of its own.

[sanman]

NeoCon Nikki shooting off her mouth again, by attacking Tulsi Gabbard

Deep State getting out their knives, very anxious to torpedo Tulsi -- just like they shafted Michael Flynn

[sanman]

Deep State vs Trump

[saip]

what is deep state? Who are deep state?

More like, IS THERE A DEEP STATE? Or is it just someone's imagination, especially someone who never wants to face the truth. Like God, it exists in someone's fertile mind. No one has seen it, but claims there must be a deep state as things did not go as they wished however wrong their wishes could be. The deep state we would like to think is omnipotent, omniscient and some times omnivorous. I did not win the lotto jackpot (I bought several lotto tickets over the years) and it must be because of the deep state is against me (Occam's razor be damned). There you go, that is my impression of the deep state.

[sanman]

More like, IS THERE A DEEP STATE? Or is it just someone's imagination, especially someone who never wants to face the truth. Like God, it exists in someone's fertile mind. No one has seen it, but claims there must be a deep state as things did not go as they wished however wrong their wishes could be. The deep state we would like to think is omnipotent, omniscient and some times omnivorous. I did not win the lotto jackpot (I bought several lotto tickets over the years) and it must be because of the deep state is against me (Occam's razor be damned). There you go, that is my impression of the deep state.

It's very strange that after Trump got elected, suddenly all kinds of decisions are being taken to escalate war in Ukraine, by allowing missile strikes on Russia.
And meanwhile the US president and vice-president are nowhere to be found.
Who's running the show right now, when the situtation is being brought to the brink of WW3?

[saip]

It is very strange that once Trump got elected a cease fire is announced between Israel and Hezbollah. Definitely the work of the deep state as Biden and Harris are missing in action. My, how powerful the deep state is!

[Vayutuvan]

Common thread is that Biden and Harris are missing in action.

[sanman]

[sanman]

Deep State flunkies in Senate torpedoed Matt Gaetz as AG...

... but guess what's going to happen next:

[sanman]

https://x.com/libsoftiktok/status/1865557318890668337