The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

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Rahul M
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The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by Rahul M »

Yes, I know that we have a 'design your own UAV' thread. This is not that. :wink:

TL;DR version :-
We need more tankers, by yesterday.
We also need more ELINT/SIGINT and strike aircraft, preferably stealthy, but we will come to that discussion.
An unmanned, twin-engined, flying-wing, stealthy aircraft powered by dry kaveris is our best bet to achieve that, IMHO.
Think enlarged, twin engined AURA.

Want to know more ? Please, read on !


I.Background
We all know about the 'fighter gap' IAF is suffering from and it doesn't appear to be getting better anytime soon. IAF will likely be at around
~30 sqn by the end of the decade, approximately 2/3 of its sanctioned strength of 42 sqn. With this depleted strength it is expected to

a) protect Indian airspace on 2 fronts (3 maybe, if PLAAF starts deploying in BD/Myanmar) from not only OPFOR fighter aircraft but also assorted cruise
missiles, kamikaze UAV's and the like. Did I mention a significant chunk of those fighters would be stealthy ??

b) counter OPFOR heavies like AEW/tankers/bombers etc

c) aid the army in ground engagements on a front stretching from Gujarat to Arunachal

d) aid the navy in its own engagements from arabian sea to andaman sea

To accomplish all this, IAF has an actual fighter squadron strength that is ~66% of its already conservative projected requirement.
That's not adequate, not by a long shot. If war actually breaks out, those numbers would not be enough to perform its primary role of
protecting Indian airspace AND execute the secondary role of taking the fight to the enemy.
To support the depleted fighter strength, we have a grand total of 6 refuelers.
Even if 4 are serviceable at any one time, where will you deploy them ? 1 each in four corners of the country ??
Your fighters would have to land again and again in order to refuel, making it that much challenging to maintain continuous CAP's.
Long range strikes would be near impossible beyond token attempts.

II. The case against tankers converted from transports/airliners :

a) there are no easy options, we have been trying for more than a decade now ? It's either too costly or too complicated and all of them require
yet more imports which do nothing for the Indian economy or the indegenisation effort. If we go for this option spending costly FOREX on it, 25-30
years down the line we will be in the exact same position, again. Hat in hand, asking for massa to please sell us some doodads for a few billion USD,
which the babus at MoF dont want to spend.

b) These designs are not survivable in the modern battlefield, they are slow flying and non-stealthy, the worst combination possible.
These can be detected from 100's of KM away and would be juicy targets for OPFOR stealth fighters like the J-20 with its long range missiles like PL-15.
I posit that this variety of tankers and other support aircraft are past their sell-by date. Just because western air forces continue to fly them
because of legacy reasons is not reason enough for us to the same mistake. Secondly, the geography available in the Indian sub-continent to hide such
an asset is much less than what the US can access in the pacific, for example, making these more vulnerable in our case.

III. Single point of failure Vs Distributed system

One 200,000 kg tanker out of 4 (3?) operational at any one time is a single point of failure for a large section of the IAF. Let's see how.
Destruction of a large tanker like IL-78 is not only loss of a capital asset, it throws into jeopardy entire squadrons' flight schedules and
warfighting capability. I believe forces worldwide would eventually move to dedicated purpose built tankers that are smaller, cheaper, more
survivable and most importantly, much more agile to operate.
One step in this direction is the MQ-25 being used by US navy; as legacy tankers start retiring, all forces preparing to fight peer adversaries would
switch to MQ-25 and similar platforms. However, with an effective fuel load of ~7500 kg at 500km, it is still a limited platform. There's no reason why such a
platform has to be the smallest possible single engined bird. The sweet spot, as far as India is concerned would be a twin engined unmanned platform,
as we would see in the next section. A large number of such aircraft, designed and made in India, for India, can transform the IAF.


IV. Unmanned, twin-engined, flying-wing, stealthy

Let's deal with these attributes one by one :

Unmanned : Refueling is one of the more simpler, repetitive tasks in the air force, relatively speaking of course. This is a functions that's just
begging to be automated. No need to risk a person in that role, at most a pilot can remotely supervise its functions from ground.

Twin engined : Use the dry kaveri, it seems to be working and it is mostly immune from sanctions. With a thrust of 45-50 kN each, 2 kaveris would
generate enough thrust to power a 25,000 kg class aircraft.

FLying Wing : Inherently stealthy design, current AURA design knowledge can be used to create a larger version, saving time and cost. The wings have
enough volume to carry large amount of fuel. Max speed would be strictly subsonic.

Stealthy : See above. AURA is already designed to be low observable. Even in a tanker, LO/VLO characteristics would serve as an invaluable survival
parameter.

So, let's have a back of the envelope estimate of the specs :
Length : 12 m
Width : 22 m
MaxT/O : 25,000-30,000 kg
Tx Fuel load ~ 10,000 kg

V. Use Cases

a) Unmanned tankers
at an average of 2 tankers/fighter sqn, IAF would require approx. 60 of these. Unlike the IL-78's and the converted 767's et al (if and when they come),
these won't need to be centrally held. Flights of 4-8 aircraft can be based alongwith fighter sqns spread across the country, providing refueling
service as and when required. A more robust, flexible and agile solution at approximately same/less cost of procuring new KC-46.

b) Long range strike
Kind of self-explnatory, an aircraft of this class would have around 8-10t payload, with stealth to boot. This can be an excellent strike option, in
autonomous of loyal wingman roles. Could also perform as trucks for long range AAMs.

c) ISR/ELINT/SIGINT roles. IAF badly needs to update and expand those assets and foreign maal are too costly. A novel use can be thought of where a flying network of these aircraft while in tankers roles could act as the passive reciever part of a bistatic network, helping in detection of OPFOR stealth aircraft.

d) Naval roles : All 3 roles mentioned above, but for the Navy. The dimensions would allow it to operate from carriers but only with those having catapults (I am guessing here). And the next IAC is supposed to have those.
Additionally, IN lacks proper AEW assets for its carriers, (yes, I do know about Ka31 and the recent helo based project)
An AEW based on this design with conformal arrays would be indecently capable. Admittedly, the mission commander can't fly on it but the radar picture can
be transmitted to the Command and Control team on ground.

So, there you have it. My idea of how the IAF could evolve in the future.
Aero and non-aero experts, feel free to join in and pick holes/improve the idea. Indranil and co, I am looking at you guys.
Cheers.

p.s. request a bit of latitude from fellow mods to allow this thread for a bit.

p.p.s BRFites please feel free to think of a name for this project as well.
TVenky
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by TVenky »

Rahul M wrote: 26 Nov 2024 00:08 Yes, I know that we have a 'design your own UAV' thread. This is not that. :wink:

TL;DR version :-
We need more tankers, by yesterday.
We also need more ELINT/SIGINT and strike aircraft, preferably stealthy, but we will come to that discussion.
An unmanned, twin-engined, flying-wing, stealthy aircraft powered by dry kaveris is our best bet to achieve that, IMHO.
Think enlarged, twin engined AURA.

Let's deal with these attributes one by one :

Unmanned : Refueling is one of the more simpler, repetitive tasks in the air force, relatively speaking of course. This is a functions that's just
begging to be automated. No need to risk a person in that role, at most a pilot can remotely supervise its functions from ground.

Twin engined : Use the dry kaveri, it seems to be working and it is mostly immune from sanctions. With a thrust of 45-50 kN each, 2 kaveris would
generate enough thrust to power a 25,000 kg class aircraft.

FLying Wing : Inherently stealthy design, current AURA design knowledge can be used to create a larger version, saving time and cost. The wings have
enough volume to carry large amount of fuel. Max speed would be strictly subsonic.

Stealthy : See above. AURA is already designed to be low observable. Even in a tanker, LO/VLO characteristics would serve as an invaluable survival
parameter.

So, let's have a back of the envelope estimate of the specs :
Length : 12 m
Width : 22 m
MaxT/O : 25,000-30,000 kg
Tx Fuel load ~ 10,000 kg

V. Use Cases

a) Unmanned tankers
b) Long range strike
c) ISR/ELINT/SIGINT roles.
d) Naval roles :

Let me add one more Use Case and a current critical capability gap.
e) Electronic Warfare: AURA EW. I think we badly need dedicated EW bird with both offensive & defensive capabilities.
Not sure whether 2 Kaveri in its current config can support long range, and long endurance.
Manish_P
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by Manish_P »

+1 to both above posts

Flying wing would help in larger carrying capacity and more persistence i think

1. UTA (Unmanned Tanker Aircraft)
2. UMPASA (Unmanned Maritime Patrol and Strike Aircraft)
3. UEWA (Unmanned Aerial EW Aircraft)

would be my order of priority.

Ease of making would probably be the reverse order
ernest
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by ernest »

Great initiative, for starting this topic. If we don't even start now, we won't have similar capability in 2040s. Hope this is taken up asap, and funding sanctioned by the time Ghatak takes its first flight. At the very least these would replace Jaguars with more capable types. We can keep iterating as we progress with engine and electronics.

Also, need to look at 4x Kaveri bomber/tanker options too. We should at least be seeing some feasibility analyses and such. Hope we are surprised in this Aero India. We can hope to have a CATS Tanker added to HAL pavilion.

We should at least evaluate 4 levels of flying wing UCAVs. Then armed forces can decide on the utility and mix and get moving on them at war footing.

1. SWIFT based UCAV powered by STFE: Already reports (unofficial) that IAF is interested in 100s of these. Can carry 2x50kg payload. Useful for recce, SEAD/DEAD, and as decoys. Can be used for anti terror and CAS with 2x ATGMs (SANT).
2. Ghatak (1xKaveri): shorter range strike. Mainly Pakistan focus.
3. BWB with 2x Kaveri: as described in the first post of the thread.
4. BWB with 4x Kaveri: Long range bomber/maritime strike/refueller.
csaurabh
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by csaurabh »

This is an excellent article. Wish our babooze and import pasand generals could show this kind of out-of-box thinking.

Western air forces may be relying on converted airliners because they have a massive civilian airliner manufacturing industry in the first place.. which we don't have. So need not be attached to that philosophy.
Rahul M
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by Rahul M »

TVenky wrote: 26 Nov 2024 14:41 Let me add one more Use Case and a current critical capability gap.
e) Electronic Warfare: AURA EW. I think we badly need dedicated EW bird with both offensive & defensive capabilities.
a stealthy platform might be a wasted in a EW role, since EW activity is by definition not stealthy. Also, mki might have more onboard power for this role.
Not sure whether 2 Kaveri in its current config can support long range, and long endurance
Why do you think so?
Rahul M
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by Rahul M »

csaurabh wrote: 27 Nov 2024 11:40 This is an excellent article. Wish our babooze and import pasand generals could show this kind of out-of-box thinking.
I am just hoping this ignites a spark in some designer's brain. Our problems have become too large to be solved by conventional approach.
Western air forces may be relying on converted airliners because they have a massive civilian airliner manufacturing industry in the first place.. which we don't have. So need not be attached to that philosophy.
Precisely. Sometimes lagging behind in tech can be a good thing, it allows it to skip entire tech generations, like India did with mobile phones, effectively skipping the landline phone phase.
Manish_P
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by Manish_P »

Rahul M wrote: 27 Nov 2024 23:36
TVenky wrote: 26 Nov 2024 14:41 Let me add one more Use Case and a current critical capability gap.
e) Electronic Warfare: AURA EW. I think we badly need dedicated EW bird with both offensive & defensive capabilities.
a stealthy platform might be a wasted in a EW role, since EW activity is by definition not stealthy. Also, mki might have more onboard power for this role.
True Rahul ji, while it will lose it's own stealth but it can use the stealth to go undetected much close the defenses than regular platforms. Nearer the distance to jam usually means lesser power required for jamming doesn't it?
ernest
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by ernest »

Manish_P wrote: 28 Nov 2024 09:38
True Rahul ji, while it will lose it's own stealth but it can use the stealth to go undetected much close the defenses than regular platforms. Nearer the distance to jam usually means lesser power required for jamming doesn't it?
This is how I imagine it to be useful as well. As part of the mission, small stealthy platforms can sneak in closer, and with decoys make it more complicated for the ADS.

If we have small EW packages for narrow range / low power applications <50kg weight, then that would enable a useful SWIFT variant. It can assist in SEAD/DEAD, sneaking in close and engaging enemy radars and other IADS equipment. Can also turn into Kamikaze role for endgame.

Smaller UAVs cannot have wide EW capabilities, but there is scope to develop newer technologies and tactics that will make them very useful for such roles.

Another small payload for it can be decoys that mimic cruise missiles / aircraft / LMs. We will have to develop a host of weapons/equipment for such platforms, which will be inevitable. Need an entire ecosystem to come up to fill in all roles viable for desi UCAVs / CATS .
TVenky
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by TVenky »

Rahul M wrote: 27 Nov 2024 23:36
TVenky wrote: 26 Nov 2024 14:41 Let me add one more Use Case and a current critical capability gap.
e) Electronic Warfare: AURA EW. I think we badly need dedicated EW bird with both offensive & defensive capabilities.

a stealthy platform might be a wasted in a EW role, since EW activity is by definition not stealthy. Also, mki might have more onboard power for this role.
Not sure whether 2 Kaveri in its current config can support long range, and long endurance
Why do you think so?
For this particular EW usecase I guess that we can ignore stealth benefits for a while. i.e EW gets priority over stealth benefits .
Obviously, MKI will offer more onboard power. I believe MKI-EW has its own place and scope of action but not in the way I imagine >> that these EW-drones fly, say 50KM, "inside" the Terroristan,to keep their crafts grounded and much further away from us.
Now, in this context, i guess MKI EW, will be more risky and costly to lose, when compared to a EW-drone,

Then, to answer your question,
1st. I am not an aeronautical engineer :-) so cant make even an educated guess of technical parameters.
2ndly.. Kaveri, is still 'Work In Progress', not sure whether it is possible to get near-true estimates of endurance / range that a 49-51KN dry engine can offer in its current state.
I tried using ChatGPT to deduce and get some guesstimate but it spewed some weird numbers and I had to stop midway.
Yagnasri
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Re: The case for an unmanned twin engined flying wing

Post by Yagnasri »

One mango question. The Kaveri dry may not have a long life like a commercial aircraft engine. Still, at 4000 Hours, it shall do. Right?
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