Indian Missiles News & Discussions - 30 June 2022

[sohamn]

My understanding is that a hypersonic missile in it's hypersonic phase of flight is, due to the ionised layer around it, unable to use on board sensors or receive updates from other sensors through a data link. At this stage it can only use INS. Hence if it has to remain hypersonic in it's final stages, then it can't be used against moving targets. If one wants to use it against moving targets, then it has to be slowed down, which makes it vulnerable to AD.
To my knowledge no one has solved or found a work around to make the sensors or data links work through the ionisation layer.

My understanding is that the boundary layer ionization only prevents radio communication, but doesn't stop a onboard sensor like say a laser range finders, laser proximity fuses, IR sensors etc. But I could be wrong.

[sanjaykumar]

Never thought of it that way.

Short wave radio is affected by ionospheric reflection. But one can see the stars just fine. The difference being the wavelength.

( I can say the stars are not affected because stars look similar from earth orbit, otherwise there may be an epistemic limitation to making that statement).

[Aditya_V]

Nice Youtube video from Doctor Shivji on Hypersonic missile test

[wig]

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 747030.cms
missile with 3500 km range launched from Arighaat

India is learnt to have tested a nuclear-capable submarine-launched ballistic missile (SLBM), designed for a strike range of 3,500-km, from the newly commissioned nuclear-powered submarine INS Arighaat on Wednesday,
There was, however, no official word on the missile test that took place off Visakhapatnam in the Bay of Bengal in the morning. Sources said it was the solid-fuelled K-4 missile that was tested from the 6,000-tonne INS Arighaat. The K-4 has so far only been tested from submersible pontoons over the last several years.
A detailed analysis of Wednesday's test results will show whether the missile firing was actually a success and met the laid down trial objectives and parameters, the sources added.

[ramana]

Well done.
Look at mendacity of TOIlet.
Second sentence says no official word.

Third sentence onwards say sources confirm....

[Kailash]

Astra Mk3 or SFDR uses a Russian engine bought off the shelf (or) DRDO is developing this with Russian assistance?

[williams]

https://x.com/zubinashara/status/186203 ... 66/video/1

Not sure if this is the actual video.

[Narad]

Not sure if this is the actual video.

This is a very old video. K-4 being tested from submerged pontoon.

[Prasad]

Astra Mk3 or SFDR uses a Russian engine bought off the shelf (or) DRDO is developing this with Russian assistance?

Entirely DRDL.

[sanman]

Why don't we make this damn thing too? It could help us overcome Chinese defenses in the same way it helps Russia against NATO

Plus, we should be able to manufacture them more cheaply than everybody else.

[Hriday]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1862011 ... G-mcg&s=19

In the video, G Satheesh Reddy, former DRDO chief and present scientific advisor to the defence minister says that personally, he would say that the hypersonic missile which India tested is more like a hypersonic cruise missile and that India is the first to test this kind of missile and nobody else have these missiles.

A full YouTube video is provided in the reply to the above Twitter post.

I miss the old days of the forum. Many of the forum people are on Twitter and not sharing their information here. Not complaining, I know they have their own reasons. For eg Haridas mentioned on Twitter that the range of the recently tested hypersonic missile is 2500 to 3000 km.

[Cyrano]

Haridas ji posts here now and then, but yes, missing spinster singha vina shiv ityadi mahapurush

[Rakesh]

India’s nuclear arsenal becomes more potent. Why the K4 submarine launched ballistic missile matters
https://theprint.in/defence/indias-nucl ... s/2378963/
28 Nov 2024

[sanman]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1862011 ... G-mcg&s=19

In the video, G Satheesh Reddy, former DRDO chief and present scientific advisor to the defence minister says that personally, he would say that the hypersonic missile which India tested is more like a hypersonic cruise missile and that India is the first to test this kind of missile and nobody else have these missiles.
A full YouTube video is provided in the reply to the above Twitter post.

I miss the old days of the forum. Many of the forum people are on Twitter and not sharing their information here. Not complaining, I know they have their own reasons. For eg Haridas mentioned on Twitter that the range of the recently tested hypersonic missile is 2500 to 3000 km.

That clip is from this longer video, which I'm still in the process of watching:

[Haridas]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1862011 ... G-mcg&s=19

In the video, G Satheesh Reddy, former DRDO chief and present scientific advisor to the defence minister says that personally, he would say that the hypersonic missile which India tested is more like a hypersonic cruise missile and that India is the first to test this kind of missile and nobody else have these missiles.
A full YouTube video is provided in the reply to the above Twitter post.

I miss the old days of the forum. Many of the forum people are on Twitter and not sharing their information here. Not complaining, I know they have their own reasons. For eg Haridas mentioned on Twitter that the range of the recently tested hypersonic missile is 2500 to 3000 km.

I am very happy to see the big fat lady fly off Arighaat.

Some mercy of Sri Vishwakarma dev ji that allowed me to visualize this sub launched BM with MIRVs, that I put on the BRF Missiles pages that I used to administer. That was almost 20 yrs ago.

There were few who disbelieved Agni with MIRV, more so a fat Agni-SL (sub surface launched) with MIRV as wishful daydreaming

Remembering the song:

"Hum layain hai toofaan say kishtee nikaal kay,
Is desh ko rakhhnaa mayray bacchon sambhaal kay ..."


https://youtu.be/ddrx8288qwA?si=jbgXixsZ0O-aWqJk&t=45s

[srai]

Rudram-II ejector launcher

https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1829050415096442890


Video
https://x.com/Rethik_D/status/1829052768222331016

[AdityaM]

India’s nuclear arsenal becomes more potent. Why the K4 submarine launched ballistic missile matters
https://theprint.in/defence/indias-nucl ... s/2378963/
28 Nov 2024

So the powers that be don't know where the missile landed!

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1863457219326447624?s=46

We carried out a test of the (SLBM) missile, the launch was successful.

Concerned agencies are inquiring into what trajectory the missile took - Navy Chief

[williams]

India’s nuclear arsenal becomes more potent. Why the K4 submarine launched ballistic missile matters
https://theprint.in/defence/indias-nucl ... s/2378963/
28 Nov 2024

So the powers that be don't know where the missile landed!

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1863457219326447624?s=46

We carried out a test of the (SLBM) missile, the launch was successful.

Concerned agencies are inquiring into what trajectory the missile took - Navy Chief

That came from NDTV Vishnu Som. Yeah the missile got launched into space and did not return back

Joking apart, they will have detailed telemetry both from the ship based radars and the satellites. I can speculate that since It is a secretive test, Chief will get the detailed briefing in a few days. So Chief was stating the matter of fact. These missiles are guided by onboard computers and this is the 7th test launch.

[Manish_P]

...
So the powers that be don't know where the missile landed
...

Only the Pakis are 100℅ sure everytime about where their missiles land... as they always land on their own territory.

[Nikhil_Naya]

...
So the powers that be don't know where the missile landed
...

Only the Pakis are 100℅ sure everytime about where their missiles land... as they always land on their own territory.

India’s nuclear arsenal becomes more potent. Why the K4 submarine launched ballistic missile matters
https://theprint.in/defence/indias-nucl ... s/2378963/
28 Nov 2024

So the powers that be don't know where the missile landed!

https://x.com/manupubby/status/1863457219326447624?s=46

We carried out a test of the (SLBM) missile, the launch was successful.

Concerned agencies are inquiring into what trajectory the missile took - Navy Chief

We do know where the mijjile splashed down. We do have telemetry of this. I think what the Chief meant was that we are studying if the mijjile followed all expected parameters. This was the longest range mijjile tested from a submerged platform other than a 'pontoon'. There are multiple variables to consider.

IMHO the system has already been tested for the 'range' aspect - what this test did was to test for submerged launch keeping the platform safe in such launch with other key variables - that is what will be tested.

What I did hear from my Chaiwallah is that we are expecting some non NOTAM tests soon and some air launched ordinance in key testing phases.

[Rakesh]

That came from NDTV Vishnu Som. Yeah the missile got launched into space and did not return back

https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1863500682101145739 ---> In reply to a question I asked the Navy Chief at the Navy Day press conference today, Admiral DK Tripathi said that while a submarine launched ballistic missile was successfully launched in a test a few days back, there is feedback still awaited on the trajectory of the missile (believed to be the K4 missile with a 3500 km range). While the word 'unsuccessful' was never used, this may indicate that all parameters of the test may not have been achieved. SLBM tests are often the toughest to complete. 6 of 13 Russian Bulava sub launched ballistic missiles failed before they got to a stage of operational maturity. India will need to keep testing the K4 till we get it spot-on, a costly and time consuming process.

[Rakesh]

by Hemant Kumar Rout...

India first to develop long-range hypersonic missile: Defence experts
https://www.newindianexpress.com/states ... ce-experts
30 Nov 2024

[williams]

That came from NDTV Vishnu Som. Yeah the missile got launched into space and did not return back

https://x.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1863500682101145739 ---> In reply to a question I asked the Navy Chief at the Navy Day press conference today, Admiral DK Tripathi said that while a submarine launched ballistic missile was successfully launched in a test a few days back, there is feedback still awaited on the trajectory of the missile (believed to be the K4 missile with a 3500 km range). While the word 'unsuccessful' was never used, this may indicate that all parameters of the test may not have been achieved. SLBM tests are often the toughest to complete. 6 of 13 Russian Bulava sub launched ballistic missiles failed before they got to a stage of operational maturity. India will need to keep testing the K4 till we get it spot-on, a costly and time consuming process.

"....this may indicate that all parameters of the test may not have been achieved."

WADR, that is conjecture from the reporter's part. Navy chief never said that. So far we have documented one test failure of the 7 tests conducted from the year 2010. Bulava test failures were attributed to poor quality of materials and controls. It was not about technology limitation. Just because their tests failed does not mean ours will fail too. While I agree we need to continue testing such assets, creating self doubt based on conjectures of one reporter is not healthy.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 2504813025 ---> Biggest takeaway from today’s press conference by Navy Chief, Admiral DK Tripathi. The joint Indian Navy-DRDO project for the 1,500 km long range hypersonic anti-ship missile (LRAShM) - first tested on Nov 17th - which adds to India’s deterrent capability, which he told me he’d like to have ‘tomorrow’.

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 0059857126 ---> The LRAShM is fully funded by the Navy and has air, surface, submarine and land-based variants. It can kill anything the PLAN can throw at us. Technology-wise, one of three breakthroughs since 1971 - the naval missile and the nuclear sub are others. It’s still work in progress, but a capability that needs to be accelerated and inducted.

[ernest]

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 0059857126 ---> The LRAShM is fully funded by the Navy and has air, surface, submarine and land-based variants. It can kill anything the PLAN can throw at us. Technology-wise, one of three breakthroughs since 1971 - the naval missile and the nuclear sub are others. It’s still work in progress, but a capability that needs to be accelerated and inducted.

Will be interesting to see what will be the Air launched version's platform. Are we getting Blackjacks/Indigenous bomber finally?

[Rakesh]

Will be interesting to see what will be the Air launched version's platform. Are we getting Blackjacks/Indigenous bomber finally?

Any strategic bombers that India will get, will be of Russian origin.

[Rakesh]

Examining trajectory that missile took: Navy Chief Admiral Tripathi on K4 Test
https://theprint.in/defence/examining-t ... t/2383793/
02 Dec 2024

While India’s Strategic Forces Command (SFC) operates INS Arihant with a K-15 SLBM, its range is only 750 km. K-4 has a range of nearly 3,500 km.

[Nikhil_Naya]

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 0059857126 ---> The LRAShM is fully funded by the Navy and has air, surface, submarine and land-based variants. It can kill anything the PLAN can throw at us. Technology-wise, one of three breakthroughs since 1971 - the naval missile and the nuclear sub are others. It’s still work in progress, but a capability that needs to be accelerated and inducted.

Will be interesting to see what will be the Air launched version's platform. Are we getting Blackjacks/Indigenous bomber finally?

We forget that we have a large Truck in the form of the Rambha. Flying out of the Andamans these can strike a PLAN battle group even in the Phillipine Sea at Range. Just as the Brahmos - A, we will probably have the air launched version on these beasts.

[ernest]

We forget that we have a large Truck in the form of the Rambha. Flying out of the Andamans these can strike a PLAN battle group even in the Phillipine Sea at Range. Just as the Brahmos - A, we will probably have the air launched version on these beasts.

I will wait for that version, as it will be difficult to get it to Bramhos-A size for Su-30MKI. How it happens will be interesting. Maybe cutting down on first stage booster, and launching from an altitude. But even then it will be difficult, and I have little hope to see it flying on an MKI

[Nikhil_Naya]

We forget that we have a large Truck in the form of the Rambha. Flying out of the Andamans these can strike a PLAN battle group even in the Phillipine Sea at Range. Just as the Brahmos - A, we will probably have the air launched version on these beasts.

I will wait for that version, as it will be difficult to get it to Bramhos-A size for Su-30MKI. How it happens will be interesting. Maybe cutting down on first stage booster, and launching from an altitude. But even then it will be difficult, and I have little hope to see it flying on an MKI

Cutting out the first stage booster, launch profile will be different, range could be compromised a bit - but still have adequate range. A 1000 km hypersonic beast which is carried 500 km by the launch platform will still have an effective range of 1500 km or thereabouts.

[Rakesh]

Successful Test of LRAShM: What Strategic Capabilities Will It Add To Navy?

This week will be observed as Navy week to commemorate Indian Navy conducting one of the most comprehensive naval defeats on the Pakistan Navy in 1971. India recently tested the LRAShM as part of a hypersonic missile missile development program undertaken by the DRDO. Join News9 Plus Editor Sandeep Unnithan, Former C-in-C of Southern Naval Command Vice Admiral KN Sushil and Director of Society for Policy Studies and strategic affairs expert Commodore Uday Bhaskar (Retd).

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 5511218364 ---> Graphic shows maximum range of a LRAShM coastal battery from the A&N Islands.

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 7955523668 ---> Reserve its use for hi-value targets - carriers, capital ships, submarine pens, command posts, fortified bases. Largely indigenous so mass production + multiple variants could bring down cost.

[uddu]

Will be interesting to see what will be the Air launched version's platform. Are we getting Blackjacks/Indigenous bomber finally?

We forget that we have a large Truck in the form of the Rambha. Flying out of the Andamans these can strike a PLAN battle group even in the Phillipine Sea at Range. Just as the Brahmos - A, we will probably have the air launched version on these beasts.

What about acquisition of C295 Refuellers in adequate number along with maritime variant of Navy. Will that help with extending the range further from A&N into South China Sea?

[ernest]

Awesome map. Now place another circle at Lakshadweep.

Gotta invest in long range surveillance/reconnaissance. Apart from relatively small numbers of P8I, MQ-9, we have limited long range surveillance/reconnaissance assets. Navy has committed to Tapas. We should be developing larger HALE UAVs with range to cover this area. We should have seen some mockups at least for such systems to have it inducted in the next decade. Otherwise we will be dependent on more expensive assets in limited numbers.

A feasible way to deploy decently ranged UAVs from our surface ships will go a long way. We can use larger versions of winged VTOL UAVs (like Ideaforge Switch) from helicopter deck to cover a few hundred km around each of our surface ships. Larger MALE UAVs (like a Tapas-TP version with sufficient power for carrier ops) can operate from our aircraft carriers (and future LHDs) out at sea.

Large UUVs can also be useful. If we have sufficient UAV/UUV/Satellite coverage of this area. With our missiles (LRAshM, Brahmos/Nirbhay variants, SMART and HSTDV follow on) we can virtually deny any hostile naval presence in Indian Ocean, and a little beyond. Doable by the 30s if we keep the funding steady. We have missiles mostly covered w.r.t. tech, not necessarily volume. Need to work on surveillance assets.

Damn, we can repeat Op Trident without sending out a single ship today.

[uddu]

https://www.mapdevelopers.com/draw-circle-tool.php
When deployed in Mumbai, Guj to J&K , it covers Afghanistan and large areas of Iran, Central Asia and cover Persian Gulf.

[Jits]

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 5511218364 ---> Graphic shows maximum range of a LRAShM coastal battery from the A&N Islands.

https://x.com/SandeepUnnithan/status/18 ... 7955523668 ---> Reserve its use for hi-value targets - carriers, capital ships, submarine pens, command posts, fortified bases. Largely indigenous so mass production + multiple variants could bring down cost.

The author has drawn circle map for 1500 miles instead of 1500 kms, at 1500 kms it does not reach south china sea when fired from andamans.

[Nikhil_Naya]

We forget that we have a large Truck in the form of the Rambha. Flying out of the Andamans these can strike a PLAN battle group even in the Phillipine Sea at Range. Just as the Brahmos - A, we will probably have the air launched version on these beasts.

What about acquisition of C295 Refuellers in adequate number along with maritime variant of Navy. Will that help with extending the range further from A&N into South China Sea?

I am not so sure on the C295 Refuellers - They lack the inherent range and the 'carry capacity' which will be required by a flight of already long range Su-30MKI's. It also will have to be positioned closer to the Malacca straits which puts in in range of hostile airspace as is.

Added a couple of images with the range for a land based 1500 km LRAShM.

Just as an addition - the LRAShM can keep the Entire Pak navy in their ports from Mumbai. And the Bay of Bengal can be fully covered just from Vishakhapatnam.

[Manish_P]

...
I am not so sure on the C295 Refuellers - They lack the inherent range and the 'carry capacity' which will be required by a flight of already long range Su-30MKI's. It also will have to be positioned closer to the Malacca straits which puts in in range of hostile airspace as is.
...

Sir, we do have (or plan to have) birds other than the Su-30 MKI

[Nikhil_Naya]

...
I am not so sure on the C295 Refuellers - They lack the inherent range and the 'carry capacity' which will be required by a flight of already long range Su-30MKI's. It also will have to be positioned closer to the Malacca straits which puts in in range of hostile airspace as is.
...

Sir, we do have (or plan to have) birds other than the Su-30 MKI

Of course we do - but they probably wont carry the large ordinance (the Su is a beast when it comes to this). The Rafale M, might have a lower range MRAShM.

[Manish_P]

Sir, we do have (or plan to have) birds other than the Su-30 MKI

Of course we do - but they probably wont carry the large ordinance (the Su is a beast when it comes to this). The Rafale M, might have a lower range MRAShM.

<OT>
Perhaps. Still a useful capability to explore.

We should really start working on a twin engine unmanned tanker as mentioned in another thread. Start with land based one. Which can operate over the A&N region (so less stringent requirement of ceiling maybe). Then try carrier based variant.

</OT>