Tejas Mk2 Medium Weight Fighter: News & Discussion - 23 February 2019

[titash]

On a strategic level of thinking, all these 7-8 decades of maturity come from the desire to remain at the bleeding edge of military capabilities. That only happens once you experience long-term wars, death, and destruction.

1) The UK built an empire, and fought 2 bloody wars, and lost that empire. It almost lost its independence in the early 1940s. They're a shadow of their former selves but desire to remain at the cutting edge of a few niche technologies (engines, subs, fighters)

2) The French likewise (after losing to the British on numerous occasions over 300-400 years) built an empire, fought 2 bloody wars, lost their independence/sovereignty briefly, and eventually lost that empire. They are clearly interested in remaining "relevant" and will invest in core-spectrum capability development (engines, subs, fighters, ICBMs, nukes, supporting export market clients)

3) The US transformed from an isolationist state to one of the two victors of WWII overnight. The factors involved were a massive industrial base, and a shock attack by the IJN at Pearl Harbor resulting in mass casualties, and a "lose/win the war in an afternoon" moment at Midway (although there's a solid point to be made that the IJN was already in trouble based on US vs. Japanese production rates), and immunity of the mainland via distance from the war in Europe. They plan to keep what they have won by remaining at the bleeding edge across the entire spectrum of capabilities. They are backed up by their economy

4) The Russians - nothing needs to be said here; 20 million WWII casualties have hardened attitudes and laid down clear red lines about their interests, and proactiveness in cutting off invasion routes from the North European Plains towards Moscow. They will never let themselves be ethnically cleansed again, and will do what they need to across the full capability spectrum. They are backed up by their natural resource bonanza

Does India have the will to remain on the bleeding edge? Have we learnt anything from our 1200 years of subjugation? One can argue that unless the entire Indian population is forced to endure 4-5 years of war and sacrifice, national interests will never be the priority of the masses and therefore the elected leaders. Only recently has a pan-Indian feeling of being Indian and Hindu taken roots of some sort, and it will take a while to solidify (and sadly will take many more terrorist outrages & ethnic cleansing of Hindus by RoL/RoP folks before it even registers on the radar)

Until then, the onus is on patriots and nationalists to do their bit. People who are invested in capability development and not necessarily on return-on-investment. The desi Boeings, Lockheed Martins, Raytheons have to start small, build capability, innovate, and one day when the long war-like crisis hits...the government will look to them.

[ashishvikas]

India’s plan for advanced fighters: LCA Mark2 by 2029, AMCA by 2035

https://m-economictimes-com.cdn.ampproj ... 446470.cms

In a significant boost to India's indigenous fighter aircraft program, 4.5 generation plus LCA Mark 2 fighter jets are slated to commence flights by March 2026, with mass production expected to begin by 2029.

[SSridhar]

On a strategic level of thinking, . . .

Great post, titash

[Kartik]

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1822490994551500849 ---> The Tejas Mark 2, a more powerful and bigger avtaar of the Tejas Mark 1A, will soon have a flying prototype using the GE F414 engine.

[Kartik]

Article by ANI on Tejas Mk2 timelines after the review was conducted by DRDO Chairman Dr Samir Kamat.

India to begin production of Tejas Mk2 jets by 2029- AMCA by 2035

[basant]

We must begin production even before IOC certification. Most of the changes should only be s/w related so that will speed up deliveries.

[Kartik]

We must begin production even before IOC certification. Most of the changes should only be s/w related so that will speed up deliveries.

There is no IOC in the case of the Tejas Mk2.

The prototypes are being built to test all systems that are new/updated/modified but they are being built to the production spec itself. Weapons integration will continue with IAF taking the lead on that, while production set up will start concurrently with flight testing.

[basant]

Are you sure sir? IIRC only TD and PV versions are to be skipped with 3 IOC and 3 FOC a/c. Is there any open source info on this issue? In 2019 the GoI explicitly stated that production will begin only after 'successful development & test flight', whatever that means. I hope they changed the stance later.

[Rakesh]

India to begin production of LCA Mark2 jets by 2029, 5th gen fighter AMCA by 2035
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 811185955/
11 August 2024

https://x.com/VinodDX9/status/1822666788884078613 --->

1) Production of all 180 Tejas Mk 1A expected to be concluded by 2032.
2) Production of LCA Mk2 likely to commence in 2029.
3) 250 LCA Mk2s expected to be inducted.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1822490994551500849 ---> The Tejas Mark 2, a more powerful and bigger avtaar of the Tejas Mark 1A, will soon have a flying prototype using the GE F414 engine.

Added link to source of image.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1822226375568245143 ---> Exciting!! Get the glimpse of MK2 (CGI though) at the end.

[Rakesh]

Notice the part stricken in the tweet below. In the video link provided, Mr Rajpurohit does *NOT* say the that IAF will induct the Tejas Mk2 in 2025. What he states is that the aircraft will fly in 2025.

VIDEO: https://x.com/ians_india/status/1835183858918023443 ---> Jodhpur, Rajasthan: An employee of Aeronautics Development Authority Agency Bangalore, Vaji Rajpurohit, says, "By 2025, the Indian Air Force will induct the LCA AF MK II, a multirole supersonic fighter jet developed by DRDO. This advanced aircraft will eventually replace older jets like the Mirage 2000, Jaguar, and MiG-29 in India's fleet"

[srai]

^^^

MK2 induction is 2035 at the earliest …

[basant]

We took a long time to certify the production variant of Tejas as we had practically no expertise in testing process itself for a FBW based system. Now that a very similar airframe has been validated by us and almost all the new technologies (would) have also been tested on Mk1A, certification of Mk2 should be accomplished a lot faster. My guess would be 2029-30. Assuming not much 'delay' from the customer regarding any feedback required.

[Kartik]

We took a long time to certify the production variant of Tejas as we had practically no expertise in testing process itself for a FBW based system. Now that a very similar airframe has been validated by us and almost all the new technologies (would) have also been tested on Mk1A, certification of Mk2 should be accomplished a lot faster. My guess would be 2029-30. Assuming not much 'delay' from the customer regarding any feedback required.

The IAF wants it's Software Development Institute to be more deeply involved in integration of equipment and weapons on the Tejas Mk2. It'll help speed up things for sure.

The basic airframe, hydraulics, electricals, FBW, braking systems, fuel transfer systems, engine, new control surface (canards), in-flight refueling, the new cockpit avionics, etc. will all be tested by ADA/NFTC/HAL folks and once that they have done the full envelope expansion, production clearance will be given to start production of the serial units.

As you've rightly stated, the priceless experience of having to do everything on the Tejas related to it's IOC and FOC certifications will hold ADA/HAL/NFTC in very good stead. They'll be able to reduce the number of test points on the Tejas Mk2 to cover the most important ones, rather than doing what they did on the Tejas Mk1.

But nevertheless, I would assume at least 5 years from first flight to production clearance, even being very optimistic.

[basant]

I agree. The number of test points probably would be comparable, or less. Because whatever was tested on Mk1 (with/without IFR equipment, different radomes, canopy changes, internal layout for better maintenance, etc), were again tested on Mk1/Mk1A with changes. Now Mk2 should be closer to the final requirements. What would be of immense interest will be the time difference between test points, which, IMHO, should be shortened significantly due to prior experience and understandable lack of confidence in the developers and NTSC that resulted in either over-engineering or over-cautious schedules. So 4 years also should be at par, but considering surprises with complex systems, 5 years should be maximum. That is if IAF leaves the process to the original developers. However, if IAF *does* get involved in the process as you mentioned, IMHO, all bets are off. In any case, weapons' integration is different from certifying the a/c itself. However, knowing our System, the commencement of production will most likely be delayed if weapon integration is delayed. That's my 2 paisa opinion.

[Prem Kumar]

IAF getting involved early & deeply is a net-positive, IMO. Yes, they might add requirements as they go, but they do that anyway. At least now, the requirements will be known *during* development & not during testing

Secondly, if IAF has skin in the game, they will feel its their baby and will want it to come to fruition. They will push for induction, accept reasonable compromises, not badmouth in public, will have a first hand appreciation of the struggles, will embrace iterative development etc

ADA/DRDO/HAL will also learn the IAF's perspective & requirements first hand

[basant]

Alpha Defense™ @alpha_defense

ADA to further study Tejas MK2 design based on ONERA tests.
These optimisation will be incorporated in follow on prototypes.

[fanne]

what is ONERA?

[sanjayc]

I googled. It is French national aerospace research center, also known as ONERA. Conducts wind tunnel tests

https://www.onera.fr/en/windtunnel/testing-services

[Brad Goodman]

Wasnt there some new of an professor from IIT Kanpur who said the canard placement was not optimum. Not sure what happened to it

[fanne]

That professor was also of the view that we should built 1000 mig 21 copies and call it a day.
Someone also told me that giver that he is professor at IIT Kanpur he is the only smart person in India and all the people at ADA are duffers.
Having said that, yea people should always guard against institutional blind spot, and ADA can always have one.

[hanumadu]

Wasnt there some new of an professor from IIT Kanpur who said the canard placement was not optimum. Not sure what happened to it

There was a video of ADA director (I think) where he said that the canards are placed infront of the air intake which is not the norm. But he said it should be ok since the vertical seperation between the intake and canards is large and they did a lot of wind tunnel tests.

Since we are taking so long to develop mk2, couldn't they have redesigned the air intake?

[Prem Kumar]

Wasnt there some new of an professor from IIT Kanpur who said the canard placement was not optimum. Not sure what happened to it

If it is Prof Prodyut Das, have a large bottle of salt with you. I think Karan M has engaged in debates with him on Twitter

He is an inveterate Tejas naysayer. He is exactly the kind of bad faith actor who should not be taken seriously - because of his deep biases

[Brad Goodman]

Thankyou, I missed that out.

[Kartik]

A sliver of hope

Fighter engine deal likely this year - HAL CMD

New Delhi: India is likely to finalise the terms and sign a deal to acquire the advanced fighter jet engine technology from the US this financial year, in time to start producing them for the next generation Light Combat Aircraft that are under development, chairman and managing director of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), DK Sunil, has said.

..

Not an ET subscriber, so can't access the rest of the article. Can anyone post relevant portions of it here?

[Rakesh]

Fighter engine deal likely this year, says HAL CMD
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 714152.cms
27 Sept 2024

DK Sunil, who recently took charge of India's largest aeronautical company, said several major orders are in the pipeline and HAL is set to double its order book to Rs 2.1 lakh crore within the next year, given the government's strong push towards the Make in India policy. He added production of the LCA Mk1A aircraft is on track and the fighters would be delivered as soon as engines ordered from the US arrive.

New Delhi: India is likely to finalise the terms and sign a deal to acquire the advanced fighter jet engine technology from the US this financial year, in time to start producing them for the next generation Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) that are under development, chairman and managing director of Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL), DK Sunil, has told ET. The official, who recently took charge of India's largest aeronautical company, said several major orders are in the pipeline and HAL is set to double its order book to ₹2.1 lakh crore within the next year, given the government's strong push towards the Make in India policy. He added production of the LCA Mk1A aircraft is on track and the fighters would be delivered as soon as engines ordered from the US arrive. "We are expecting that in this financial year we should be able to do it (finalise and sign the jet engine contract). We expect three years for the plant to start delivering and we will be on time," he said.

The timeline for the jet engine plan matches the development plans for LCA Mk2 version that will be powered by the GE 414 Made in India under technology transfer. The HAL CMD said while initially US manufacturer GE had agreed to a 56% technology transfer, this was increased to 80%, including critical technologies, after intervention from the higher levels of government. In the coming days, a negotiation committee will be formed to clear the technical and commercial aspects of the deal with experts from the defence ministry, HAL, Aeronautical Development Agency and Gas Turbine Research Establishment. Interestingly, the deal - pegged at over $1 billion - will also heavily involve the private sector, with the CMD saying that a significant part of the work will be outsourced. Indian companies that have specialised expertise in this area include MTAR Hyderabad, Indo MIM Bengaluru, L&T, Godrej and Azad engineering, among others.

"HAL outsources about 40-45% of its work and it will be a similar model. We will give machining outside as well as some parts to whoever has got this kind of equipment," he said. The new CMD also expressed confidence that the order book for HAL is likely to expand significantly in the coming months on the back of a strong government push for Make in India. The official said that the present order book stands at about ₹1.10 lakh crore and contracts in the pipeline are likely to increase it to ₹2.1 lakh crore within a year. This will include upcoming contracts for 97 additional LCA Mk1A aircraft and an order for 156 light combat helicopters, besides several orders for the Advanced Light Helicopters. "These orders will easily give us work for the next five to six years. The LCA Mk2, Indian Multi Role Helicopter and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft will take us into the next decade," he added.

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/ANI/status/1840972214096556076 ---> Delhi: On being asked about the future of the Indigenous Fighter aircraft programmes, Indian Air Force Air Chief Marshal AP Singh says, "I have been associated with the Tejas programme right from its flight testing days and it is very close to my heart. I know that this aircraft has the capability. It is a little too small of an aircraft for the current situation, however, we have such a place for an aircraft and we have ordered 200 plus aircraft of this type...We need to focus more towards the Mark 2 (aircraft) and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft (AMCA) programme. We have the capacity and capability within the country to achieve this. Everybody has to come together to make it a success..."

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ang3lkenny/status/1846857027424813290 --->

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1850087089515213198 ---> Good news on Tejas Mk2 front.

[JTull]

https://x.com/Ray70409890/status/1850087089515213198 ---> Good news on Tejas Mk2 front.

Weren't there's images of drawings of the nose mounting with an IRST/FSO as an integral part? Why isn't that mentioned here? Should we be concerned about FSO status?

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1854226896369963131 ---> Tejas MK2 will have a AESA with 912 TRM. The architecture is hybrid of Virupaksha and Uttam radar with Quad and Plank. The document released do not specify if it is GaN or GaAs.

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1854423179634036941 ---> Company making this radar in its investors summit said “GaN”.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/DefSysCI/status/1854161410529587548 ---> A look at the technical specification of the AESA-AAAU for LCA AF Mk2: It features 912 TRM with 896 active elements and 16 receive only elements. 10W GaAs TRMs, similar to the Uttam for Tejas Mk1A. The new antenna is shorter in height but wider, to fit in the smaller nose frame.

https://x.com/DefSysCI/status/1854170807473197522 ---> There has been some uneducated guesswork going around Mk2 using GaN TRMs, that is false.

* The peak transmitted power is ~8.9KW.
* Transmit output power (min): 10W (peak) per TRM
* Transmit output power (max): 16W (peak) per TRM

All TRMs can not operate at 16W with the 5.5KVA AAPSU.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Archit_Ch/status/1857018739151057313 ---> A better look at the IRST for LCA AF Mk2.

[rajsunder]

https://x.com/Archit_Ch/status/1857018739151057313 ---> A better look at the IRST for LCA AF Mk2.

EOTS would have been better.

I for one visualize MK2 as a 4.5 gen fighter jet with 5th gen sensors that are fully integrated.

[Rakesh]

EOTS would have been better.

I for one visualize MK2 as a 4.5 gen fighter jet with 5th gen sensors that are fully integrated.

Please do NOT requote pictures when replying. Many posters visit BRF on mobile phone. Thank You.

[drnayar]

https://x.com/DefSysCI/status/1854161410529587548 ---> A look at the technical specification of the AESA-AAAU for LCA AF Mk2: It features 912 TRM with 896 active elements and 16 receive only elements. 10W GaAs TRMs, similar to the Uttam for Tejas Mk1A. The new antenna is shorter in height but wider, to fit in the smaller nose frame.

https://x.com/DefSysCI/status/1854170807473197522 ---> There has been some uneducated guesswork going around Mk2 using GaN TRMs, that is false.

* The peak transmitted power is ~8.9KW.
* Transmit output power (min): 10W (peak) per TRM
* Transmit output power (max): 16W (peak) per TRM

All TRMs can not operate at 16W with the 5.5KVA AAPSU.

In context the Rafale F3R has an AESA radar in the nose with 838 TRs!

[Kartik]

Images from some tender (most likely for model making) that ADA released for the model of the Tejas Mk2 that will be displayed at Aero India 2025 in Feb.

Twitter link

Credit- Kenny on Twitter.




Shows the following:

- ASRAAM missiles on wing tips (NG-CCM in IAF parlance)
- Astra Mk1 or Mk2 on the starboard side outermost pylon
- Bomb carrier with 4 X SAAW PGMs (125 kg each)
- new "pinched waist" drop tank
- Litening LDP on chin pylon
- Center drop tank
- Tara PGM on the second chin fuselage pylon
- Rudram 2 missile
- New dual carriage pylon with 2 X Astra Mk1/Mk2 missiles
- ASRAAM on portside outermost wing pylon

Shows that the Tejas Mk2 in an air superiority config is being designed to carry up to 6 BVRAAMs with 2 wing drop tanks and in a beast mode can even go up to 10 BVRAAAMs and 2 CCMs with a single centerline drop tank.

[BenG]

Hlft 42 is there to fill role of tejas mk2. Amca is far more important since there's no fallback option. Tejas mk2 was a jobs programme parrotted by successive drdo/Ada chief like Dr Girish Deodhare to further their career goals within the organisation.
I agree with prodyut das about Chinese fighters. We should develop satellite based surveillance and asymmetric drone capabilities to deter Chinese planes from planning strikes into our territory.

[Rakesh]

Hlft 42 is there to fill role of tejas mk2. Amca is far more important since there's no fallback option. Tejas mk2 was a jobs programme parrotted by successive drdo/Ada chief like Dr Girish Deodhare to further their career goals within the organisation.
I agree with prodyut das about Chinese fighters. We should develop satellite based surveillance and asymmetric drone capabilities to deter Chinese planes from planning strikes into our territory.

Cancel a program (Tejas Mk2) of which Rs. 9,000 crore has already been invested and the first prototype will roll out in 2025/2026.

and replace it with....

A program (HLFT-42) which has yet to receive official sanction of funds from the GOI for even a single prototype.

We go through this tamasha idea (focus on AMCA, cancel Tejas Mk2) on BRF every now and then. We will never learn

Twitter thread as to why Tejas Mk2 is so critical for the AMCA program ---> https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1873016799299785143