Pakistan Armed Forces: News & Discussion

[basant]

Not too long ago, we used to make fun of the Chinese the same way. PAF can always upgrade the a/c just like any other manufacturer.

[Vayutuvan]

Not too long ago, we used to make fun of the Chinese the same way. PAF can always upgrade the a/c just like any other manufacturer.

Do they pakigenous indjinns?

[Aditya_V]

Pakis and Chinese are totally different, Chinese wer ahead of us, JF 17 is a Chinese Aircraft in CKD form assembled in Pakistan, Pakistan does not even make Trucks for thier Army.
The pride of production is stitching leather footballs, these balls are then kicked around in the football world cup.

Thier missile Tests are all final products with iterative testing, with EU, US a.k.a NATO plus Chinese support the country will collapse. They are full of the next big thing, in 2013 it was how CPEC will make thier per capita 5 times Indias.

IN the 90s thier Ballistic missiles had longer range and solid fuel cause they were direct imports, while we started with liquid fuelled Prithviraj, today they are no where near. As no one wants to supply a missile which can hit the supplier.

Military progress is always accompanied by growth in civilian industry, Pakistan has None of this. They are excellent in x.com/ propaganda wars

[basant]

Pak need not do it by themselves. They can get the Chinese to do their job. As far as we are concerned, it's the fighter that we may have to, that matters.

[SSridhar]

^ Yeah, true, Aditya_V.

Just to add to that list, by the turn of the new millennium, the nuclear forces of the TSPians were much ahead of their Indian counterpart, what with tactical nuclear weapons, a command & control structure, more number of nuclear weapons etc.

[Aditya_V]

Pak need not do it by themselves. They can get the Chinese to do their job. As far as we are concerned, it's the fighter that we may have to, that matters.

So basically we have to tackle J-20 , J-10, J-31/35 what the CHinese can part with or latest US tech, all Paki generals settle down in US/Australia/UK after retirement with children in these countries during their tenure- it would be foolish to pretend West has no leverage on them.

So let us plan based on their acquisition but no reason to belittle our achievements by saying Pakistan Green painted this or that.

[Rakesh]

AIP submarines to new warships & focus on SLBM, how Pakistan Navy is carrying out ‘surprising’ expansion
https://theprint.in/defence/aip-submari ... n/2385450/
03 Dec 2024

Navy chief Admiral Dinesh Tripathi puts the spotlight on Pakistan's ambitious plan to be 50-ship strong in the next decade. Says operational plans are being tweaked with it in mind.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Tej_Intel/status/1863836249838219710 ---> Have no doubt, Pakistan will get ample units of J-10s, J-35s and advanced UCAVs (at China's own expense) during any future conflict with India.

[MeshaVishwas]

Interesting watch.
Uniformed Jehadis openly admit to using civilian vehicles to move troops( around the 15:15 mark).
Not news for us but something to keep in mind anyways.

[MeshaVishwas]

Paki navy "hero" giving his account of the INS Khukri sinking.

[Baikul]

Has anyone done a serious analysis of the impact of the reported J 31 sales to Pakistan, and our options? So far I’ve not found a lot online.

[Manish_P]

Has anyone done a serious analysis of the impact of the reported J 31 sales to Pakistan, and our options? So far I’ve not found a lot online.

Probably the import lobby will ask for the Su-57MKI with even more assertiveness.

The F-35 just can't cut it (costs, absolute US control, S-400 etc etc. The recent GE engine supply issue is a damper as well)

Russia will pitch the S-500 system and/or pitch co-development of the S-600 system designed for counter-stealth

[Baikul]

Has anyone done a serious analysis of the impact of the reported J 31 sales to Pakistan, and our options? So far I’ve not found a lot online.

Probably the import lobby will ask for the Su-57MKI with even more assertiveness.

The F-35 just can't cut it (costs, absolute US control, S-400 etc etc. The recent GE engine supply issue is a damper as well)

Russia will pitch the S-500 system and/or pitch co-development of the S-600 system designed for counter-stealth

So apparently no real options then.

I guess one also has to look at the J -31 from the worse force of a matrix of defence/ offence options including our missile tech, but if we’re doing a stand-alone comparison, I wines the Chinese craft’s capabilities stack up against the 57.

And we can no longer so easily dismiss the fighter as typical Chinese maal, IMO. That ship has sailed.

[Manish_P]

...
And we can no longer so easily dismiss the fighter as typical Chinese maal, IMO. That ship has sailed.

No. I wouldn't either.

Would have helped us if had a large number of powerful AEWACS birds...

[williams]

Has anyone done a serious analysis of the impact of the reported J 31 sales to Pakistan, and our options? So far I’ve not found a lot online.

Where will the bankrupt Pakis find money to buy fifth gen fighters. It doesn't mean the Chinese will simply give it to the beggars because they can threaten us. Baki's already owe the Chinese > 20 billion USD.

[Baikul]

Has anyone done a serious analysis of the impact of the reported J 31 sales to Pakistan, and our options? So far I’ve not found a lot online.

Where will the bankrupt Pakis find money to buy fifth gen fighters. It doesn't mean the Chinese will simply give it to the beggars because they can threaten us. Baki's already owe the Chinese > 20 billion USD.

If Internet chatter is to be believed, the J-10C was sold under an 80 percent soft loan / 20 per cent down payment kind of deal. Soft loan in Bakistani terms would probably mean little chance of repayment. Or maybe selling their already questionably so-virginity to the Chinese in new ways and positions.

The J 31 sale will allegedly have a similar deal structure. To the Cheeni brothers, it has not inconsiderable benefit of creating a significant strategic challenge to India.

So it goes.

[srai]

^^^
Long-term Chinese basing rights of Pakistani

1. naval port(s)
2. airforce station(s)
3. army base(s)

Along with strategic transportation link via highways and railroads and oil & gas pipelines

[chetak]

^^^
Long-term Chinese basing rights of Pakistani

1. naval port(s)
2. airforce station(s)
3. army base(s)

Along with strategic transportation link via highways and railroads and oil & gas pipelines

srai ji,

This is one way of partially bypassing the malacca trap, but it is also a bloody expensive and risky way

all those old cheeni coal fired power stations the ching chongs have transplanted to pukestan is mostly to produce power to heat the pipelines so that the oil stays viscous enough to (pump and) keep flowing, as these pipelines traverse some of the most environmentally hostile and inhospitable territory in the world.

A cheen colony with a captive workforce of momins. This colony will also provide agricultural produce to be shipped back to cheen, making the cheen less dependent on global imports of rice, et al

The "middle kingdom" cheen will quickly implement their version of the standard model of the rapacious and subversive colonizer, who is exploitative, extractive and venally authoritative in subduing the "natives"

[S_Madhukar]

Chicoms have learnt very well from British colonialism. You can feed a WW2 machine on the backs of South Asians so today it is even more possible.

[drnayar]

Massive deployment of Taliban who have declared war on Pakistan

Some sources suggest that Taliban have already arrived on the battlefield inside Pakistan

https://x.com/English_blood_/status/1872902268531687769

i hope Bharat does what it needs to do [ good to repay for the beedi adventure by the pakis ]

[vonkabra]

So apparently no real options then.

Specific to the options part, I don't think it is strictly a matter of aircraft/SAMs. Stealth aircraft have to be based somewhere and if enemy airfields can be neutralized, then the advantage of stealth can be nullified. To take a historical context, despite being revolutionary the Me-262 could not change the course of WW2 largely because their airfields were under incessant attack (not the only cause, limited numbers, unreliable engines, lack of fuel/ good pilots etc. all played a role as well), and the Indo-Pakistan scenario has differences, but there is some scope to draw lessons - comprehensive surveillance combined with Brahmos/Pralay/Nirbhay airstrikes can be an option. Another could be to weaponize and deploy the Ghatak drone in large numbers to loiter over their airfields.

Also how do stealth fighters counter opposing stealth fighters? If neither side can detect the other, how do they attack each other?

[Manish_P]

...

Also how do stealth fighters counter opposing stealth fighters? If neither side can detect the other, how do they attack each other?

Stealth doesn't mean total invisibility.

It is about staying non-detectable (and non-trackable/lockable) for as close to the target as possible to release the weapons needed to neutralize the target.

The stealth fighters will themselves have their radars which will be active emitters like RADAR and jammers (longer ranged) which they will keep switched off as much as possible and passive detection systems (which are usually shorter ranged). And they will usually be backed by powerful AWACs staying at a good distance away and passing on the airspace info to them to be picked up via sensors and data links

As an aside, some years ago there was a collision between a british and a french nuclear submarine. Both were reported to be running 'silent' and with only their passive sensors on. Though it was not the only cause, it was certainly a big factor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Vangu ... _collision

[srai]

^^^

Stealthy vs non-stealthy detection would be like the following scenario (simple example):

• Su-30MKI (large RCS) -> detect 300km
• LCA Tejas (small RCS)-> detect 100km
• F-35 (stealthy RCS)-> detect 30km

If these are flying head-on armed with 110km BVR AAM, you can take a guess who will get the first shot

[Manish_P]

^^^
..
If these are flying head-on armed with 110km BVR AAM, you can take a guess who will get the first shot

Also need to consider their own radar and missile ranges. The larger aircraft might well have a more powerful radar and carry large very long range AAMs.

Lot's of variables in the mix

[fanne]

How does a stealthy airframe acquire enemy aircraft, track it and then lock it? If though own radar, they say one can detect rf signal at twice the distance from where it can detect enemy plane. That would mean, any platform can be caught at 200-400 km range. Of course lpi radar and intermittent on offing of radar helps, but it can still be tracked. You do need awesome ew capability (something that most planes still do not have). Two planes flying few miles apart and networked, can track even lo platform that is transmitting through triangulation. There are many other ways to track them.

[sajaym]

Anti Stealth VHF Radar, jointly developed by LRDE & BEL, was today officially flagged off at BEL-Ghaziabad. The radar system boasts of advanced surveillance capabilities, including staring capability, which enables it to detect stealth targets at long ranges.

Bhaijaan...ab hum aapke J-31 ko dekh lenge. Let's see if the chinkis will risk giving their 'stealth fighters' to the Pakis if there's a chance that we'll down one of them!

Some reports saying Americans have pulled the F-35 out of the Aero India show. This radar is being displayed in the show. Must have spooked them.

https://www.business-standard.com/exter ... 271_1.html

ThePrint reported this on Tuesday, noting that while the demonstration of the American fifth-generation stealth jet, Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II, appears to have been cancelled,

[Rakesh]

Trump releases $397 million for Pakistan’s F-16 fleet, says report
https://www.wionews.com/south-asia/trum ... rt-8757648
26 Feb 2025

[srai]

^^^
US funding for Pakistan's F-16 Fleet; What It Means For India
https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2025/0 ... t.html?m=1

In a significant move, the Trump administration has released $397 million to support Pakistan's F-16 fighter jet fleet as part of a broader $5.3 billion unfreezing of previously halted foreign aid.

…

[Rakesh]

VIDEO: https://x.com/FrontalForce/status/1895070680594645294 ---> No, this is not some tiktokiya, this is Rawalpindi Commisioner, Pakistan.

[VishnuS]

AIP submarines to new warships & focus on SLBM, how Pakistan Navy is carrying out ‘surprising’ expansion
https://theprint.in/defence/aip-submari ... n/2385450/
03 Dec 2024

Navy chief Admiral Dinesh Tripathi puts the spotlight on Pakistan's ambitious plan to be 50-ship strong in the next decade. Says operational plans are being tweaked with it in mind.

Bhai Admiral sir ke dekh kar bekar me print open Kiya!

There is nothing that is too scary or a serious threat to India/IN

Maybe Agosta 90Bs, but then again Pak is operating these subs since the last 2 decades!! You can change anything, but not it's acoustic signature!!! We have a dozen P-8Is for this very reason.

Coming to Yuan class, I hope you do know about Thailand right, who outright rejected these subs because of noisy Chinese diesels!!

Ah the Zulfiqar class(4 ships), NASM SR is overkill for these Corvettes

Type 54As(4!?) These might need Brahmos today, but when NASM MR is available, you wouldn't want to waste a Brahmos on this ship!!

Coming to 50 ships, how many are capable of venturing into Arabian Sea!???

[VishnuS]

^^^
US funding for Pakistan's F-16 Fleet; What It Means For India
https://www.indiandefensenews.in/2025/0 ... t.html?m=1

In a significant move, the Trump administration has released $397 million to support Pakistan's F-16 fighter jet fleet as part of a broader $5.3 billion unfreezing of previously halted foreign aid.

…

Nothing! Zlitch!!

To begin with, this money directly goes into American MIC, not even 1 pkr goes to PAF!!

This is to put kill switches in F-16s and put them in under control

[VishnuS]

Anti Stealth VHF Radar, jointly developed by LRDE & BEL, was today officially flagged off at BEL-Ghaziabad. The radar system boasts of advanced surveillance capabilities, including staring capability, which enables it to detect stealth targets at long ranges.

Bhaijaan...ab hum aapke J-31 ko dekh lenge. Let's see if the chinkis will risk giving their 'stealth fighters' to the Pakis if there's a chance that we'll down one of them!

Some reports saying Americans have pulled the F-35 out of the Aero India show. This radar is being displayed in the show. Must have spooked them.

https://www.business-standard.com/exter ... 271_1.html

ThePrint reported this on Tuesday, noting that while the demonstration of the American fifth-generation stealth jet, Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II, appears to have been cancelled,

Chinese didn't give J-10s (J-10C!?, not sure) let alone J-31s.

The noise of the J-10s we heard, PLAAF is operating them. 12 of'em if I remember correctly and I am guessing their Operation Base is Skardu, but definitely from POK.

[VishnuS]

Where will the bankrupt Pakis find money to buy fifth gen fighters. It doesn't mean the Chinese will simply give it to the beggars because they can threaten us. Baki's already owe the Chinese > 20 billion USD.

If Internet chatter is to be believed, the J-10C was sold under an 80 percent soft loan / 20 per cent down payment kind of deal. Soft loan in Bakistani terms would probably mean little chance of repayment. Or maybe selling their already questionably so-virginity to the Chinese in new ways and positions.

The J 31 sale will allegedly have a similar deal structure. To the Cheeni brothers, it has not inconsiderable benefit of creating a significant strategic challenge to India.

So it goes.

There was no news of sale or anything!!

I tracked this issue a couple of years ago, 8 J-10s were operating from PoK base and 4 more to be followed. F-16s were vacates to accommodate J-10s. To my knowledge Skardu was the only POK airbase where F-16s were stored...

Chinks were operating at that time, not training PAF!

If you ask me, Chinks should sell J-31s to Pak!! At least that will put some fire under PMO/MOD/IAF and other Babus that I forgot to add here!!!

Maintaining J-31s will burn a lot of cash and PAF will be forced to retire many of their aircraft prematurely and also grab more funds thus leaving little for PA and PN. If I have to guess PN will be the scapegoat in fund crunch!!!

War is never fought with one weapon, Russia Ukraine war taught us that much!!!

[MeshaVishwas]

Sleep tight as fizzleya is awake

[Nikhil_Naya]

Let us not make the mistake of underestimating the Pakis. Wont be surprised to see them selling their women as well just to keep the 'martial' image. Lesser said about their 'afsaran' the better.

Here's a couple of possibilities on how the PAF and PN can upgrade

The Chinese are eager to encircle India - what prevents them from 'wet leasing/ dry leasing' to borrow a commercial aircraft term, 3-4 squadrons of 4/5 gen aircraft. The same with the PN. The PLAN has added almost 100 new capital ships/ subs in the past couple of years. They can move 7-10 year old ships to Gwadar/ Karachi. The other option for them would be to offer payment in PKR (Ala Russia in the past when we got the 21's)
Chipanda also has some missiles that can create trouble for the IN from Karachi keeping them at arms length.

There are other countries that want to create trouble in the region for their own benefit - Turkey is one of them, wont be surprised if Turkey spares some aircraft from inventory for a few years as 'support spares' in return for some Ummah benefits.

The other - more far fetched story - If the IAF goes for a Ruski aircraft the Americans won't be too pleased. Can a couple of old squadrons of F16s be offered? Not that worried about our 'all weather friend' Russia if it is opposite to this.

[drnayar]

Let us not make the mistake of underestimating the Pakis. Wont be surprised to see them selling their women as well just to keep the 'martial' image. Lesser said about their 'afsaran' the better.

Here's a couple of possibilities on how the PAF and PN can upgrade

The Chinese are eager to encircle India - what prevents them from 'wet leasing/ dry leasing' to borrow a commercial aircraft term, 3-4 squadrons of 4/5 gen aircraft. The same with the PN. The PLAN has added almost 100 new capital ships/ subs in the past couple of years. They can move 7-10 year old ships to Gwadar/ Karachi. The other option for them would be to offer payment in PKR (Ala Russia in the past when we got the 21's)
Chipanda also has some missiles that can create trouble for the IN from Karachi keeping them at arms length.

There are other countries that want to create trouble in the region for their own benefit - Turkey is one of them, wont be surprised if Turkey spares some aircraft from inventory for a few years as 'support spares' in return for some Ummah benefits.

The other - more far fetched story - If the IAF goes for a Ruski aircraft the Americans won't be too pleased. Can a couple of old squadrons of F16s be offered? Not that worried about our 'all weather friend' Russia if it is opposite to this.

i say dont make defence purchases for "pleasing" other countries, if the issue is trade deficits or tariffs there are other ways to do it, an easy way being energy imports.

It is time India manages its own defence and its production technologies for being truly independent

[MeshaVishwas]

Interesting video
Looks like even the rich Pakjabis don't want to invest in the occupied Balochistan.
And for us, taking out the 3 big spare parts warehouses could lead to a tremendous amount of damage.
https://imgur.com/a/zDL990j

[MeshaVishwas]

Annoying nasal voice of Munir, for your entertainment and (dis)pleasure.
ISPR has decided to release the shorter version of this moron's rant
so thank them for it.
The full address would have bored me to death.

[Hriday]

Sourav Jha a well known defence analyst in X,
https://x.com/SJha1618/status/191575252 ... FP1sQ&s=19

The big difference between 2019 & now is that we are firmly in the era of low RCS loitering munitions. So, any escalation could well see the Pakistanis deploying waves against Delhi & industrial units. Islamabad's withdrawal from the Shimla agreement can be seen in that light.

This is where Chicom comes in. Chicom has been augmenting Pakistani capabilities in the realm of both air defence and unmanned systems since 2019 among other things. They have been preparing for this day. Of course, so have we.

[drnayar]

https://www.janes.com/osint-insights/de ... first-time


The Pakistan Air Force (PAF) has published video imagery showing, for the first time, a JF-17 Block III fighter aircraft armed with the long-range PL-15 beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile (BVRAAM).

In the same video, the PAF also showed a J-10C in a camouflage colour scheme of green-grey, equipped with PL-15 missiles in dual-launch wing hardpoints. Earlier, Janes had reported that J-10C aircraft in this colour scheme are used in the maritime strike role.

Missile capabilities
Developed by the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC), the PL-15 has been in Chinese military service since 2016. Designed as an enhanced version of the earlier PL-12 BVRAAM, the PL-15 is equipped with an active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar system and is capable of a speed of Mach 4. Janes estimates that the PL-15 has a maximum range of 300 km. In contrast, the earlier PL-12 (SD-10/10A) missile, which Pakistan also possesses, has an estimated maximum range of 70–100 km.

In the PAF video, the JF-17 Block III aircraft featured the serial number 22-311 and was also equipped with wingtip-mounted PL-10 short-range imaging infrared (IIR)-guided AAMs. The aircraft lacked a squadron insignia.