Very Long Range Precision (VLRP) Fire Systems Study

[Vayutuvan]

The focused optical system making it jamproof; & the electronics in shell robust and inexpensive.

Haridas ji,
As a countermeasure, enemy drones dispense chaff or use their own body to occlude the optical beam. Enemy drones have to be better to be able to out-manoeuvre (sic) our drones.

[Pratyush]

Over the last one year I have been thinking about making this particular post on this topic. But due to general laziness I have put it off till date. This is going to be a rambling post. Hopefully, it will make some sense to someone.

Note

1) I don't consider the Shahid family as Drones. I consider them to be low end medium capacity cruise missiles. Therefore I am not going to consider them as part of the future of the precision fire system for the purposes of what I am about to post. Even though for all intents and purposes Shahid is a precision fire support system.

2) There are several related topics that I am not explicitly addressing in this post, such as EM bandwidth and EM Emissions required to control drones, but I am expecting the reader to possess an implicit understanding of the topic.

3) I am not including GPS guided systems in this post as we have seen jamming as an effective countermeasure to these system, no reason to assume that future battlefield with be any different for such systems.

coming to the actual point of the post. People are fascinated by the use of man in the loop, inexpensive FPV drones or even larger man in the loop drones like the Lancet family.

On the Ukrainian battlefield we are seeing cheap and expensive fire support drones dominate. It may give an appearance that in a future peer level fight the results will be dominated by those with a superior drone capacity. However, the French army chief has called the dominance of drones on the battlefield a fleeting moment before counter measures are developed and deployed in sufficient quantities. Some of the countermeasures are as simple as brute force broad band jamming in a specific area. Something the Russians have attempted with turtle tanks, with different degrees of effectiveness.

The other possible counter measure for FPV, and Loitering munition for armored forces would be an integration of APS and light weight 20 or 30 MM canons fitted on top of the Tank/ Armored vehicle. The canon is provided fire control solution by the APS radar/ other sensors. The canon engages the munition with gunfire. We are seeing a development of such an integrated system by both Germany and Israel.

Keeping in view the above I don't think that FPV drones will remain a dominant force against a peer level competitor for long time. However, against irregular forces such such systems are still going to be relevant and a vital component of the arsenal.

That still leaves the problem of precision engagement on the battlefield to be solved for different forces.

During the late 80 and early 90s the western powers had a development program for the deployment of NLOS fiber optically guided missiles and Precision guided 81/120 mm mortars, along with LASER guided 152/155 mm shells. Due to the end of the cold war, the western efforts fell by the wayside and were abandoned at least where the NLOS fiber optic guided systems were concerned. The LASER guided systems have entered service in different quantities with different armies.

Even in Ukraine conflict we are seeing deployment of North Korean NLOS Fiber optic guided missiles by the Russians. This particular development represents the beginning of the end of inexpensive NLOS drones for precision strikes.

The future battlefield IMO is going to be dominated by fiber optic tethered surveillance drones at the Platoon/ Company/ Battalion level coupled with Fiber optic and LASER guided systems for beyond the line of sight strikes.

Secondly, conventional tube arty in order to be survivable will need to develop the following attributes.

1) A very high rate of fire i.e 10 to 20 RPM.
2) Fire control systems capable to accounting for every factor and engaging point targets with iron shells along with extremely precise target coordinates.
3) Shoot and Scoot on steroids, i.e, time taken from the receipt of fire mission to the conclusion fire mission and displacement has to be between 5 to 7 minutes, no more.

Hopefully this made sense to someone.

[niran]

The focused optical system making it jamproof; & the electronics in shell robust and inexpensive.

Haridas ji,
As a countermeasure, enemy drones dispense chaff or use their own body to occlude the optical beam. Enemy drones have to be better to be able to out-manoeuvre (sic) our drones.

saar arty shell scream at hypersonic velocity during descent on target drones or any flying object cannot physically block target only way out is to move, there is a reason 155mm arty shells carry 8kg explosive need to move out of shell kill zone which normally is 15 to 18 meter radius for Armoured vehicles 50 meters for humans and soft top vehicles

[Pratyush]

Russia appears to be using wired, unjammable fiber-optic drones that could fix a big problem its operators have faced in this war

Published on 22nd August 2022.

This covers some of the themes I had covered in my previous post on the thread. Reports have emerged from the battlefield off the fiber optic guided drones. To address the issue of jamming on the battlefield.

[Prem Kumar]

I hope we soon have integral loitering munitions that are part of Artillery regiments

Using sensors like the highly-accurate Swathi WLR & high-altitude drones, we will be able to get a real-time fix on enemy artillery. As soon as the target's rough coordinates are known, we can not only have counter-artillery firing, but also launch loitering munitions to hunt down enemy's guns even if they are on the move (shoot-n-scoot).

These munitions can be guided by the same high altitude drones, or can be guided to the last-known GPS area (based on say Swathi) and they hunt their targets via EO/IIR cameras (or even have first-person drones for hunt-n-kill)

I hope we also build a SMART-equivalent for such munitions. A supersonic launcher that carries a swarm of drones. The high-speed ensures that it reaches the target within a minute of detection and releases the hunter drone-swarm

There is just so much potential in this space!

[Vayutuvan]

saar arty shell scream at hypersonic velocity during descent on target drones or any flying object cannot physically block target only way out is to move, there is a reason 155mm arty shells carry 8kg explosive need to move out of shell kill zone which normally is 15 to 18 meter radius for Armoured vehicles 50 meters for humans and soft top vehicles

OK. Stupid question retracted. I also didn't know an arty shell has such a high payload - 16 lb (of TNT?)

[sanman]

Ukraine Unveils ‘Palianytsia’ Rocket Drone for Strikes Deep Into Russia

https://thedefensepost.com/2024/08/27/u ... ne-russia/

This new cheapo cruise missile from Ukraine seems to be proving to be a threat

[Haridas]

The focused optical system making it jamproof; & the electronics in shell robust and inexpensive.

Haridas ji,
As a countermeasure, enemy drones dispense chaff or use their own body to occlude the optical beam. Enemy drones have to be better to be able to out-manoeuvre (sic) our drones.

Sorry for late response.

I submit to say that you do not appreciate the volume of air space that need be defended by enemy defender drone to occlude the optical path and how sort duration it is. Anyway it is very easy to overcome as the shell does not need continuous guidence, just few nav fixes on the way.

As for chaff, again air space is huge and huge time available to get needed few fixes.

[Haridas]

saar arty shell scream at hypersonic velocity during descent on target drones or any flying object cannot physically block target only way out is to move, there is a reason 155mm arty shells carry 8kg explosive need to move out of shell kill zone which normally is 15 to 18 meter radius for Armoured vehicles 50 meters for humans and soft top vehicles

OK. Stupid question retracted. I also didn't know an arty shell has such a high payload - 16 lb (of TNT?)

Ask Google, only few keystrokes labour.

"A 155 mm artillery shell typically weighs around 100 pounds (45 kilograms) and is about 2 feet (60 centimeters) long. The weight of a 155 mm artillery shell can vary depending on the type of shell and its contents:

• M104: A 155 mm projectile that weighs 98.71 pounds (44.8 kg) and is filled with 15.6 lb (7.1 kg) of white phosphorus
  M121: A 155 mm projectile that weighs 97.2 pounds (44.1 kg)
  M121A1: A 155 mm projectile that weighs 98.9 pounds (44.9 kg)
  M795: A 155 mm high fragmentation steel (HF1) body projectile that weighs 103 lb and is filled with 23.8 pounds of TNT or IMX-101
  M549: A 155 mm shell with a filling weight of 16.0 lb (7.26 kg) for the M549 and 15 lb (6.8 kg) for the M549A1
  155MM LU 215: An illuminating shell with a weight of 43.7 kg without the fuze and a projectile length of 898 mm with the fuze

"

[ramana]

ATAGs has achieved 50 km in Himalayas.
Now Ram jet shell is being developed.