Indian Air Force News & Discussion - 23 March 2021

[Cain Marko]

Well, until the next cbg comes along, which could take another 10-15 years, I think this might be a great force projection asset, esp. in the IOR SCS regions. Packed with brahmos plus lracm, these will be great for anti shipping duties too. very potent esp. if escorted by mki or navy rafale. PLAN planners will have a lot to rethink.

[Rakesh]

LRAShM + SMART Torpedo + a "possible" sale of Tu-160M should be an effective deterrent against PLAN CBGs.

[Haridas]

Russian Tu-160M Strategic Bombers For Indian Air Force! A Game-Changer Or White Elephant For India?
https://www.eurasiantimes.com/russian-t ... or-indian/
26 Nov 2024

By Air Marshal Anil Khosla (Retd)

Agree with him.

What many on this forum miss the point that major global war in few yrs is almost a certainty and huge uncertainty thereof, that putting blinkers only on Porki and Cheeni front is serious miscalculation. Need one off beyond the traditional historical outlook is mandatory.

TU160 is a serious need.

Not getting fighters anytime soon anyway, so buy these readily available stuff by then.

[williams]

Agree with him.

What many on this forum miss the point that major global war in few yrs is almost a certainty and huge uncertainty thereof, that putting blinkers only on Porki and Cheeni front is serious miscalculation. Need one off beyond the traditional historical outlook is mandatory.

TU160 is a serious need.

Not getting fighters anytime soon anyway, so buy these readily available stuff by then.

Are you sure these are readily available? Also do we think we have funds for such large deal? Even if we start the process of acquiring them, don't we need more fighters to provide the necessary escort of such bombers? What I am worried about is the repeat of an Air Force version of Gorshkov deal where our money is tied up in another white elephant project.

[Cain Marko]

Are you sure these are readily available? Also do we think we have funds for such large deal? Even if we start the process of acquiring them, don't we need more fighters to provide the necessary escort of such bombers? What I am worried about is the repeat of an Air Force version of Gorshkov deal where our money is tied up in another white elephant project.

The Gorky deal wasn't a rip off. Navy planners knew exactly what they were doing and getting. If they were thinking converting a cruiser into a full blown carrier was easy, I could sell them some real estate on Mars. There is no such issue/unknown with the tu160.. At the very least, they could be leased instead of bought. 6 of these should do it.

[Rakesh]

Are you sure these are readily available? Also do we think we have funds for such large deal? Even if we start the process of acquiring them, don't we need more fighters to provide the necessary escort of such bombers? What I am worried about is the repeat of an Air Force version of Gorshkov deal where our money is tied up in another white elephant project.

1) Funds are always available. Lack of funds is not an issue any more. Today, it is an issue of priorities. Main priority is to import. Developing your own maal is secondary, always and every time. Rafale M versus TEDBF is a classic example.

* 7 billion euros for 26 Rafales for the Indian Navy? No problem!
* Sanction funds for TEDBF development? No money saar!

2) KaranM would be best suited to explain on fighter escort for the Tu-160M. My mango abdul knowledge tells me that the Rafale M should be able to do it, considering that she has long legs. Even the Su-30MKI can provide such an escort and likely even better than Rafale M. But with the long legs of the LRAsHM (air launched variant), would such an escort even be required?

* Money will magically appear for any Tu-160M purchase or lease!

[Manish_P]

...But with the long legs of the LRAsHM (air launched variant), would such an escort even be required?
...

Admiral sir, what if the next iterations - an 'extended-range' SMART torpedo delivery system and Very-LRASHM are proposed.. Would we still require costly TUs then?

The above is my khayal pulao at the moment but it seems logical and our success probability in missiles is quite encouraging

[SRajesh]

I think both Air Force and the Navy have to rethink and replan the plans around Strategic Bomber, if (a big If) India goes ahead and Trumpwa doesn't creat hurdles.) the government gives a go ahead for purchase.
Main issues or hurdles in these acquitions is not outside interference or Services choice but:
1. BEAN COUNTING
2.Political Dithering and delayed approval (given every Pappu, Akal-less and Cut-money goon crying themselves hoarse about graft)

[Manish_P]

...
Main issues or hurdles in these acquitions is not outside interference or Services choice but:
1. BEAN COUNTING
2.Political Dithering and delayed approval (given every Pappu, Akal-less and Cut-money goon crying themselves hoarse about graft)

Point 2 is not something the current dispensation hasn't handled.. Rafale didn't cut it either with the elite (judiciary) nor then aam janata. The clown prince might try again but the rest will not go along with any real enthusiasm

Point 1 is the real obstacle. Going for it will mean huge budget cuts elsewhere. The GoI/MoD/Babus can play the waiting game but can the IAF? Maybe the IAF MiG 21s will outlive even the amriki B52s...

[TVenky]

I am batting for a squadron of TU160. I will start from the top by asking a ?.

Does India possess even a 'just-enough' aggressiveness to ward of current & potential threats and be threat-free?

Answer will be definite & big 'No'.

It is not that India has one friendly neighbor. Every single country, on all sides of the border are either thorough enemy or a holy-unfriendly country. We currently seem to focus only on the immediate and door-step enemy. Have we even thought about how to contain existing & emerging threats from countries in other continents ?. we do not have to be surprised or shocked if this list expands further in the coming decades. How to nip-it-in-the-bud these currently far & likely-threat monkeys... It is only possible by wielding a 'long-stick'.

It is not that India does not invest in 'white elephants'. India has invested a B$ statue, several-B$ Bullet train etc. Hope, one would agree that these B$ white elephants has insignificant value compared to what a TU160 squadron (or a CBG or even double of MRFA ) will offer.

Lastly, it is not that we never flew LR bomber at all. Remember we also flew TU142- a LR maritime strike derivative of LR TU95 strategic bomber. We can restart LR sorties with TU160.

India has to become far more aggressive and take a strong & non-negotiating posture for all our current and potential threats within and outside the continent. This 'mindset upgrade' is long due and when it is in play, it will save lots of time, effort, other resources and importantly save us from lot of heartburn . This posture will discourage adversaries & unfriendly countries who may want to trigger & tickle us in wrong way.

One of the token 'show of strength' is and of this 'mindset upgrade' by having at least 1/2 Sqdn LR Strategic bombers like TU160. This can be acquired and put into service much faster than an fully operational CBG.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajaynewsman/status/1869561679048319057 ---> CAG performance audit of IAF training of pilots says, "IAF helicopter pilots are trained on legacy platforms with outdated avionics." Deficiency in training of transport pilots too.

[Rakesh]

A G2G contract is coming with Russian maal or French maal (or combination of both).

https://x.com/rajatpTOI/status/1871013778730750073 ---> With the IAF grappling with an acute shortage of fighter aircraft as well as force-multipliers, the Govt has constituted a high-level committee under defence secretary Rajesh Kumar Singh to chalk out a roadmap to plug the major operational gaps in the force.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/livefist/status/1871090831614243128 ---> Damn! How will China survive this new Indian committee.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/ajitkdubey/status/1871175081390739485 ---> For the IAF, 2025 calendar starts with the Made in India Tejas n ends with its legendary MiG-21 Bison. Probably, 2025 may also be the last year of MiG-21 in service with the force.

[Rakesh]

Centre forms committee under Defence Secretary to look into Air Force's overall capability development
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 222192838/
22 Dec 2024

[drnayar]

looks like IAF now faces a 3 and half front !!

[basant]

looks like IAF now faces a 3 and half front !!

[ritesh]

Abhijit Chavda on the GE shenanigans...
https://youtu.be/Mf8MVk4QqiM?si=zQybrdtjnfW70iPK

[Baikul]

Centre forms committee under Defence Secretary to look into Air Force's overall capability development
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 222192838/
22 Dec 2024

What new insight will this most esteemed committee will uncover after its no doubt weighty and sage deliberations?

I’m expecting the usual homilies and platitudes. Copy and paste any other committee’s ‘findings’

Our leaders have all failed us in this regard, and as usual they will avoid all blame and of course learn nothing from the experience.

This feels like a mind numbing time loop, the same mediocre film running again and again

[Rakesh]

Centre forms committee under Defence Secretary to look into Air Force's overall capability development
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 222192838/
22 Dec 2024

What new insight will this most esteemed committee will uncover after its no doubt weighty and sage deliberations?

I’m expecting the usual homilies and platitudes. Copy and paste any other committee’s ‘findings’

Our leaders have all failed us in this regard, and as usual they will avoid all blame and of course learn nothing from the experience.

This feels like a mind numbing time loop, the same mediocre film running again and again

https://x.com/akki_bauer22_/status/1872223630542925891 ---> Concerning this new development, India is going to call a meeting to decide when to meet again to form a committee to examine which committee is best suited to meet the needs of the meeting that previously decided to form a committee to examine which committee is best suited……

[Manish_P]

No comments

[Rakesh]

Can a new committee solve Indian Air Force's fighter jet shortage problems?

A video showcasing a new Chinese stealth fighter jet, suspected to be a 6th-generation machine, has taken social media by storm. The timing couldn’t be more striking. As this footage goes viral, India grapples with a stark contrast. The country has yet to field a stealth fighter jet, and the Defence Ministry has just formed a high-level committee to address critical gaps, including a severe shortage of fighter jets, weapons, and equipment, in the Indian Air Force’s arsenal, TOI reported. The video went viral shortly after this episode’s recording.

The committee, featuring DRDO chief Samir V Kamat, defence production secretary Sanjeev Kumar, and IAF deputy chief Air Marshal Tejinder Singh, aims to chart a path forward. But is this the game-changer the IAF desperately needs? Can the committee offer immediate solutions to the fighter jet shortage? Will it deliver a long-term roadmap for the IAF’s capability development, or is this another bureaucratic exercise with no tangible outcomes With just 36 Rafale jets inducted so far and a 110-jet acquisition proposal still unresolved, how will the IAF bridge its glaring “capability voids”? And what role will indigenous production play in addressing these gaps?

Host Dev Goswami and defence expert Shiv Aroor address these pressing questions.

[Rakesh]

Chinese Fighter Surprise Illuminates Indian Vacuum
https://www.livefistdefence.com/chinese ... an-vacuum/
27 Dec 2024

[Tanaji]

Well from IAF air marshals perspective, the unveiling of the Chinese fighter is excellent news and I am sure a few bada pegs would have been downed. They can now force the purchase of a 75-125 Rafales and 5th gen fighters on an urgent basis.

It is another matter that said fighters wont arrive for another 3-4 years even if we contract signed tomorrow, but the air marshals would have retired by them making it someone else's problem.

[Rakesh]

Chinese Fighter Surprise Illuminates Indian Vacuum
https://www.livefistdefence.com/chinese ... an-vacuum/
27 Dec 2024

The author is facing a lot of flak (and rightfully so!) for the above article...

https://x.com/SJha1618/status/1872794333394681912 ---> The Tejas Mk2 project is quite literally a technological and industrial bridge to India’s fifth-generation advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA) effort. There would have been no J-36 without the J-20. And no J-20 without the J-10.

https://x.com/Firezstarter1/status/1872670345607643412 ---> Article which makes absolutely disastrous recommendations. Conflates the Tejas Mk2 and Rafale while ignoring its cost. Further the Rafale would need to be redesigned to carry the munitions Tejas Mk2 is. Plus Tejas Mk2 is a tech incubator for the AMCA. Net, disastrous suggestions.

https://x.com/KPSingh0809/status/1873010976364306541 ---> Let @Indrani1_Roy @hvtiaf_bharat @HTT40PRASHANT write an article on it. Journalists don't have the depth of engineers/scientists to carry forward the debate and let facts be known to everyone. Do a study of how China and US run fighter aircraft and turbofan engine programs.

https://x.com/KSingh_1469/status/1872653119131385946 ---> Kill LCA MK.2 but expand LCA MK.1A orders. Imagine if the same attitude had been taken to LCA 10 years ago, LCA MK.1A wouldn’t even exist as an option. As days go by I’m convinced there was 1 man in 100 years that could’ve solved this and he didn’t want the job and passed on.

https://x.com/VivekSi85847001/status/18 ... 6549294402 ---> The most absurd take I m seeing on Indian Defense Twitter is to shut down the Tejas Mk2 and jump directly on the AMCA. The Mk2 is a 4.5 gen jet and will act as a bridge towards the AMCA. The AMCA is not possible without the Mk2. No J-36 is possible without J-20 and no J-20 without J-10, same with IAF.

[chetak]

The sudden decision to "export" many thousands of tons of rice and potatoes to the freaking beedis and Jaishankar sitting in the US during the week that includes christmas and new years, has not the possible import of these events registered on us yet

or as usual, we will persist on seeing things in black and white, and in isolation, whereas events may well be grayish and interconnected as they usually are

For sure, the GE engine is in there in the mix somewhere, (along with many elderly amriki fighters which they need to foist on India), and the narrative(s) is/are being managed by the deep state to keep Modi ji's India off balance but in this amriki led geopolitical imperative, India may end up losing in part or in full it's northeast, after which others will come gunning for India's southern state of TN under the guise of eelam

India has to be reasonably strong and infrastructurally relevant and credible in terms of equipment to stiffen the spines of the IA, IN and the IAF and in this matter, the amriki deep state thinks that it has a significant role to play. They need India to be able to deter the ching chongs

hasina's "escape" from beediland was not a spur of the moment, desperate "threat to life" decision, meaning India was aware of the coming regime change which the amrikis actually wanted to do much earlier by sabotaging the recent general elections in beediland (7 January 2024) and bringing hasina down electorally which would have given them the diplomatic cloak of plausible deniability but that was not to be because of India's vehement objections

India has recently managed to pull off the feat of getting marine GTs from ukr and shipping them to russia to mate them to a russian hull. INS Tushil: The gas turbines of this frigate are manufactured in Ukraine. More such ships will follow. A Russian warship with Ukrainian engines, made for India - which shares close ties with both countries is an anathema to western interests.


the amriki deep state does not want such happy endings for India and so they will attempt to break and remake the system until India bends like it did during the rain coat and the mafioso regimes. obummer was consistent in the fulsome praise he constantly heaped on the raincoat. Wonder what sort of a deal these two had going but it would be safe to say that India's interests would not have been too high on their agenda

The tejus is a very visible project that has caught the imagination of the Indian public. The non delivery of the GE engine will cause maximum damage to Modi ji's image and India's reputation both as a reliable weapons supplier and a reliable ally to depend on, especially like the gulf states are doing and many african countries are contemplating, including the BRICS

The west still sees India as a docile entity, easy to colonize and lead by the nose, plentiful resources to appropriate and all they have to do is foist a neverwho like figure on the unsuspecting populace, just like they did in 1947, but Modi ji's India is not like neverwho's India and that is their problem in a nutshell, and fault lines are being exploited, and the din of frenzied barking by half breed canines and other mongrels following the pack, and hoping to garner some scraps from the table, is just to divert attention until the deep state get their act together once again to make another assault on Modi ji's fortress India

The deep state is telling us who the real masters are

The GE engine will surface again, at the appropriate juncture and when the stars align, which will not be too long now. They may even transfer 99.999999999999999% as TOT but what they hold back will stop any attempt at indigenous manufacture of the engine by India

It's my guess that by now, almost every engine company in the world knows what the problem with the GTRE engine is but they are tightly cartelized and none will part with the solution to take the project forward

India should find its own avatar of AQ Khan

[fanne]

I have not bothered to read the said article (and can be rightly criticised for acting smarter/dumber/arrogant) and still I am taking a shot it.
But let me give a rational for not reading. You know what is the most important factor when deciding about a person,
or an action - Niyat. What can you say about Niyat of a person, who had advocated giving up Siachin to TSP?
What indeed? What could be the niyat of a person who was oh so happy on the demise of CDS Rawat?

So he is knowledgeable, experienced, you bet he is. So was Ravan btw.

So let's come directly to why people want MK2 capped and eliminated? Why indeed?
Simple, If not MK2, it opens India for import of F15/18/21, Gripen and someone makes peanut money (compared to the cost of the whole deal).
What we loose, pay this money and you will not have any budget to do anything else for IAF for a long time and whoever you go and buy
this plane from, you will be their bitch (read not sovereign). The guy who gets few millions in commission
makes really peanut money compared to the whole deal, but condemns his soul and souls of others to enternal hell.

This also leaves us no money for any indigenous program, update or buying of any 5th generation plane. What a wonderful way to castrate IAF.

[chetak]

Chinese Fighter Surprise Illuminates Indian Vacuum
https://www.livefistdefence.com/chinese ... -vacuum/27 Dec 2024

Rakesh saar,

the cheen run a very efficient propaganda machinery that often targets India

why do we suddenly start to believe some BS about the cheen "6th gen fighter", and that too tail less.

How can they compete with India's "engine less fighter", at least we are not tail less

They claim have the ullhasnagar (USA) made version of the amriki F-35 which they have "sold" to the pakis

NB

It stands for Ulhasnagar Sindhi Association. See Ulhasnagar,, next to Kalyan, contains large number if Sindhi residents and that area is known for cheap imitation products and really inexpensive products.

[RCase]

No comments

Some other examples of HAL's innovative ideas I have seen as a kid:

Aircraft division Bangalore had created a mini car, proudly displayed in a static airshow in the early 70's.
Koraput division (during the MIG 21 engine days) used to convert fancy alloy turbine shafts into fancy pedestal flower pots!

[sajaym]

No comments

Some other examples of HAL's innovative ideas I have seen as a kid:

Aircraft division Bangalore had created a mini car, proudly displayed in a static airshow in the early 70's.
Koraput division (during the MIG 21 engine days) used to convert fancy alloy turbine shafts into fancy pedestal flower pots!

Truly amazing work by the HAL engineers! Shocking how honourable BR members have missed the pic on the right. That chair built with high-tech alloys and crafted meticulously with cutting edge engineering is... India's first 6th generation fighter! Beneath that chair will be placed a Kaveri Jet engine and the pilot will sit on that chair and operate the fighter with a laptop. Alternatively the pilot can remain on the ground and use the laptop to make that chair lob petrol bombs on the enemy. Undetectable, unmatchable and untouchable!!

[VinodTK]

China's Great Leap Forward And India's Response

[Rakesh]

China's Great Leap Forward And India's Response

Please provide a short description of the video for other readers.

[Aditya_V]

Unfortunately true, the entire GOI machinery likes imports vs seeing India develop capabilities, a foreigner can make money but Indian should.not even if doing hood for the nation.

[sanjayc]

No comments

Some other examples of HAL's innovative ideas I have seen as a kid:

Aircraft division Bangalore had created a mini car, proudly displayed in a static airshow in the early 70's.
Koraput division (during the MIG 21 engine days) used to convert fancy alloy turbine shafts into fancy pedestal flower pots!

Those were the days when crackpot philosopher Nehru was forcing OFB factories to build toys and pressure cookers to prove to the Western world how peace-loving he was and had no intention to go to war with anyone. The proof? "Come to our defence factories and see how they are manufacturing pressure cookers and bangles for women, instead of guns." Chinese made a note of it and did the needful in 1962.

[Jay]

the cheen run a very efficient propaganda machinery that often targets India

why do we suddenly start to believe some BS about the cheen "6th gen fighter", and that too tail less.

Chetak ji, understand your point and no question about cheen's propaganda. But at what point we need to understand they are better builders, and developers of military products than we are and plan accordingly? I do not see a single area where India currently holds an advantage to them. Do you?

[VinodTK]

Mod Note: Already Posted Here ---> viewtopic.php?p=2636778#p2636778

Your post has been removed. Thank You.

[Rakesh]

Untold Tales of Kargil & Balakot | Stunning Revelations on UFOs

Do UFOs exist, or are they just illusions? What’s the truth behind sightings in New Jersey and California? Is the USA hiding something? And why is there no big UFO culture in India? Has the Indian Air Force ever encountered a UFO? In this latest episode of ANI Podcast with Smita Prakash, Air Marshal Dilip Kumar Patnaik (Retd.), former Eastern Air Commander, answers all these intriguing questions.

He also shares untold stories from the Kargil War, including flying some of the deadliest missions and dropping over two dozen bombs on enemy positions. Air Marshal Patnaik provides a glimpse into the behind-the-scenes action of the Balakot airstrikes, revealing the message the Indian government intended to send to Pakistan. Additionally, he discusses the future of drone warfare and how it could become a game-changer in modern conflicts. Wrapping up, he explains his decision to join the BJP and what he hopes to achieve in his new role.

[Rakesh]

Need Private Sector To Boost Aerospace Production: IAF Chief
https://bharatshakti.in/need-private-se ... iaf-chief/
08 Jan 2025

[drnayar]

Need Private Sector To Boost Aerospace Production: IAF Chief
https://bharatshakti.in/need-private-se ... iaf-chief/
08 Jan 2025

is there a single entity who could potentially replace HAL ? If not then how ?

[Tanaji]

Need Private Sector To Boost Aerospace Production: IAF Chief
https://bharatshakti.in/need-private-se ... iaf-chief/
08 Jan 2025

Hilarious when the issue is lack of bulk orders, unwillingness to drive an indigenous platform to fruition, complete lack of future planning and constant scope change. What private company will put their money on the line in this case? Especially when the example of Kalyani is there for everyone to see..

Let us not even talk about IAF capability to absorb more than 24 fighters a year…