Kaveri & Aero-Engine: News & Discussion

[maitya]

I got asked multiple questions, thought will try and squeeze my responses to all of them in this single post - but then it became too lengthy, so breaking it down to two parts:
(I' hoping mods will ensure these two parts are allowed to remain one-after-the-other, for continuity sake)

[Part-I - Epilogue]
TFs are considered most complex of all aero systems, because it's not only a confluence of CFD, Mat Sc & Metallurgy, Turbomachinery tech, Mfg tech etc technologies, but also because all these are intricately woven/inter-linked.

Consider this:
1) Without proper rotor CFD of the multi-path airflow thru Fan/Compressor stages/Combustor/Turbines etc, best of heat-resistant material based TF wouldn't work or produce substantially underwhelming performance.
Arguably the most grueling aspect of any TF D&D is, not developing the Metallurgy/Mat Sc involved, but developing the CFD "code" of it - one of the reasons, why you'll find most OEMS are so chary wrt tinkering with an already-developed TF core.
The result of such R&D is a CFD "code" which is mostly empirical is nature (and thus can't be reverse-engineered or "transferred" so easily).

2) Similarly best CFD based design will come cropper, if the Mat Sc/Metallurgy is not available to support the required thermal (and pressure) profile, and same underwhelming performance will surface.
A brilliant high-stage-PR based HPC design (multi-arc designs etc) is of no use, if the material for last (few) stages are unable to handle the sustained temp-profile increments thru the stages.
for e.g Ti based blades becomes useless beyond 550-600 deg C levels, while a decently designed TF (Kaveri is no exception) with OPR>20, will surely breach those ambient temp levels, beyond 4th (or 5th) stage etc.

3) If both CFD and Mat Sc/Metallurgy are in place, weakness of design/manufacture of turbomachinery will again result in the same issue - some examples:
You can have the technology to develop a 4th Gen SC alright, but if you are not able to
e.g. design/implement multi-path blade-cooling (both internal and fin cooling) architecture, nothing much will be achieved.
e.g. VIM and Investment Casting
e.g. designing and mfg the turbine blade-cores is a multi-dimensional technology in itself.
e.g. so is the laser-drilling technology
e.g. so is (blisk and bling) mfg of the compressor
e.g. LFW etc for "joining" blades and disk
etc etc
This post will become too long if I start listing out each of these technologies involved.
(I've had detailed post on each of these, in the past, in this thread - pls dig out and satisfy yourselves, if you want to)

4) If all of these have been mastered and demonstrated, nothing much will get produced, if they are not enabled for mass manufacturing.
One of the examples, that I often quote is, from F414 program:
With F414 D&D, GE always had the wherewithal/technological ability to implement a "higher" SC-gen based HPT. But they had to tone it down to a lower level (3rd Gen, IIRC) because of something called LAB effect (pls search for my posts on this, to understand) mitigation investment technology availability.
Suffice to say, it's ok to demonstrate a <2-3 deg LAB based SC HPT blade, in a tech demo mode - maybe out of lot of 10 blades test manufactured in a lab, 2 qualified (with required LAB tolerance) but other 8 didn't.
So, can't be put into mass-manufacturing mode, unless the mfg technology available with the suppliers, is of a level which brings down the rejection-rate to a manageable level.

5) And if everything goes right, you still will require to develop support mfg technologies.
To continue with the turbine-blade analogy, once in use, without required technology to repair cracked blades etc, it's unsustainable to have a TF implemented.
Betw, the technology for repairing a >3rd Gen SC casted turbine blades, is considered to be much more complex (and order more complex, requires decades of R&D) than the investment casting technology required for manufacturing the blade itself.
(refer to one of the technologies that GE has supposedly agreed to transfer as part of the upcoming F414 ToAsT deal - again I've debunked this particular point with an elaborated post, somewhere).

etc etc.

[maitya]

[Part-II - The Answers]
Now with the above in mind, let me try and address the questions asked:

For a K9 to any other Avatar a la F404 to 414, there needs to be a commercial mass production base and usage to correct glitches.
...
And then to build next gen!
...

Well that's true ... but, what is first needed is to baseline and certify the base TF (so K9, of 2009 vintage) design itself.
Until and unless the base-design is extensively test-flown (and tomes of data gathered and analyzed) and certified, none of the technologies mentioned above can be "considered ready" for mass mfg and deployment.
Only when all these technologies, that employed in K9, are "certified", then comes the another back breaking and time consuming task of preparing/equipping a supply chain industrial base with the required technology.

Good news wrt K9 is, most of the technologies are already transferred (e.g. to Godrej and others), so yes, commercial mass manufacturing is relatively less risky, once the certification process is completed.
The big assumption here is, no technology comes cropper during the certification phase, which will then require further tech dev and then further re-certification cycle (vicious cycle).

And one more point - TF dev are such a technological fine-balancing act and obscenely capital-intensive, that you don't really get to correct "glitches" during commercial mass production run - minor/cosmetics ones maybe, but nothing major. And that's precisely the reason why certification-related-flight-testing-program needs to be as exhaustive as possible.

...
We need to find a bird willing to accept K9 manned or unmanned
...

MK1A (during their overhauls ) is for K9*, dry-Kaveri for the Ghatak. So we are covered on the "forecasted usage" part.

Maityaji, what would be the fastest route for a baseline kaveri (404 in56 level) to get to production and how long might this take?

In-flight certification across the entire flight envelope is vital, and is the critical path.
And depending upon the number (both depth and spread) of Test Point coverage is being envisaged, should take ~2-3years of dedicated non-stop flight testing. My guesstimate would be somewhere around 1K hrs flight-testing-time, split between the platform itself (so LCA PV/LSP anything) and another twin-engined platform (for initial round of flight testing).
But we haven't even selected the platorm (rumours of "old" MiG-29, LCA trainers etc are floating around), and no bdugetary allocation, approvals are in place - so no idea really, "how long will it take".

Doesn't matter how much imported components there are in it. Maybe use an m88 eco core? ToT notwithstanding. Iows, just get the engine to production using whatever input from a reliable supplier.

Another core will simply put the program back by minm 5+ years ... as the non-core parts (Fan/LPC/AB etc) have to be then developed afresh (can be derived, but will not save too much time from the fresh D&D) and then certified again.
As far as K9 is concerend, no further OEM "inputs" are required - we have had "multiple rounds" of such inputs over last 3 decades, with mostly questionable RoI.
If any "help" from established OEMs are required, then it's only wrt unhindered and on-demand access to their test facilities - which will never happen anyway.
(e.g. Russia could allot this round of in-flight testing, on the IL-76MD platform, after approx ~1year later, from when the request was made)

Would the Kaveri engine show better numbers if it was benchmarked at ISA SLS? If yes, then publishing both flat rating and ISA SLS numbers would allow for an apples to apples comparison.

Flat rating doesn't work that way ...
The Thrust rating for Kaveri would be same for ISA SLS and ISA SLS+30deg C (for which it's bench marked against), and then after that will start derating with both increasing altitude or temperature or both.
To put it very very roughly, the FADEC (of Kaveri) ensures both the TeT levels (via HPT Vanes and blade material tech) and the OPR levels (via faster rpm from HPC), are increased suitably and dynamically, with the reduction of the mass-flow rate (inflow vol remains same, but density reduces) - until it reaches the max TeT (or max rpm) level.
IOW, the so-called pichchde SDRE jugaad/buddhi, ensures K9 pumps out it's peak dry thrust values (51KN) consistently, at a lower TeT and HPC rpm levels at ISA SLS conditions - which in turn, directly positively-impacts the MTBO/MTBF of the engine.
After all, our Kalluram brethren are not constrained by any techni-color brochure publishing etc - anything developed by them are, by definition, labeled as way inferior to the imported stuff from furrin-OEMs anyway, so why bother!!

Someday, in the 6th Gen TF dev intiatives, we will hear furrin Goliaths of TF world, mastering variable-cycle design (maybe the so-called 3-flow TFs) etc, to achieve exactly the same result - that'll of course be considered chest-thumping level of technology dev pinnacle, no doubt.

Oh well ...

Thanks Maitya ji, it looks like this base design with material improvements will cater to f404, f414 and perhaps 110kn to 120kn level of thrust.

fanne-ji, it's a global practice, to first get a good certified TF base design (of a certain Gen) and then incrementally add technologies to enhance their performance, and thus making them suitable for other higher-thrust demanding platforms.
So currently key is the certification step - without which, there's nothing left, except for some claims by people like moi, to show for. And that's exactly where Kaveri program was mothballed about 1.5decades back - reflects our seriousness wrt achieving strategic autonomy etc.
So until and unless, there's an announcement of a fully-funded Kaveri certification program, nothing much is going to change.

One word of caution though, if the starting-step/base-TF version is advanced enough, then there's that much less headroom for such technology infusions for the subsequent iterations - and this is where the tech-infusions for the next TF variants, then breaches the gen-levels, making them that much more difficult/risky.

I just gave an example, in my previous post:
As to, for similar level of thrust increments (~20%), how K9* -> Kaveri+ evolution may breach the 5th Gen TF tech levels in one or two aspects, but a similar evolution of F404 -> F414-402 didn't - however, F414-402 -> F414-EPE evolution required just that.

[csaurabh]

maitya ji - very clearly articulated.

Hopefully that will shut people up about fancy ideas of getting an M88 core from somewhere to fix the Kaveri and other such nonsense.

[uddu]

India’s Kaveri Engine Begins Key Testing on Russian Il-76 Aircraft
https://jetlinemarvel.net/indias-kaveri ... -aircraft/

The Tejas Mk1A is set to enter service in 2025, and by 2035, the Indian Air Force (IAF) plans to induct over 220 of these jets. As these aircraft reach their mid-life, they will need new engines to maintain their operational efficiency. The kaveri engine thrust with its improved and flat-rated design, will be capable of handling the extreme heat and high-altitude conditions typical of India’s operational environment.

Unlike the F-404 engines, which suffer from a 7-8% power degradation in hot conditions, the Kaveri engine will maintain its thrust, ensuring better performance under challenging conditions.

GTRE is focused on developing a new generation of Kaveri engines capable of delivering more power and better performance under extreme conditions. Once the Dry Kaveri+ kaveri afterburner section is tested successfully, the research body plans to propose government funding for the development of a 90 kN engine, which will replace the F-404 engines in the Tejas Mk1A within the next decade.

Will India’s Kaveri engine replace the GE F404 in the future?
https://jetlinemarvel.net/will-indias-k ... he-future/

Unlike the F-404 engines, which suffer from a 7-8% power degradation in hot conditions, the Kaveri engine will maintain its thrust, ensuring better performance under challenging conditions.

In addition to the engine development, GTRE is also nearing completion of its 130kN Twin Engine Test Bed Facility in Bengaluru. This state-of-the-art facility is designed to accommodate engines with thrust levels up to 130kN, allowing for rigorous testing and validation of high-performance jet engines.

GTRE is focused on developing a new generation of Kaveri engines capable of delivering more power and better performance under extreme conditions. Once the Dry Kaveri+ kaveri afterburner section is tested successfully, the research body plans to propose government funding for the development of a 90 kN engine, which will replace the F-404 engines in the Tejas Mk1A within the next decade.

The GE engine fiasco has brought in renewed rigour, determination and coordination from everyone involved. Hope this leads to success similar to missile arena.

Defence Secretary inaugurates new design & test facility at HAL’s Aero Engine Research & Development Centre in Bengaluru
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1991532

Defence Secretary Shri Giridhar Aramane inaugurated a new design and test facility at Aero Engine Research and Development Centre (AERDC) of Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) in Bengaluru, Karnataka on December 29, 2023. The AERDC is currently involved in the design and development of several new engines including two strategic engines - Hindustan Turbo Fan Engine (HTFE) of 25 kN thrust for powering trainers, UAV’s, twin engine small fighter aircraft or regional jets and Hindustan Turbo Shaft Engine (HTSE) of 1200 kN thrust for powering light and medium weight helicopters (3.5 to 6.5 tonnes in single/ twin engine configuration).

The new state-of-the-art facility, spanning over 10,000 sq. meters, houses special machines, advanced setups leveraging on computational tools, in-house fabrication facility and two test beds for testing HTFE-25 and one testbed each for testing HTSE-1200 and upcoming JV engine for IMRH to be co-developed by Safran, France and HAL. In addition, the newly developed facility has set-ups for testing Air producer of Jaguar, Gas Turbine Starter Unit (GTSU) - 110 M2 and 127E of Light Combat Aircraft, Auxiliary Power Units of Indian Multi-Role Helicopter and Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft, Gas Turbine Electrical Generator (GTEG)-60 for An-32 aircraft. Set-ups to carry out various critical tests for engine components and Line Replacement Units (LRUs) have also been established within the new facility.

Hailing the work being done by HAL, the Defence Secretary stated that the government trusts the capability of the Defence PSU to deliver and make the country self-reliant. “Manufacturing sector is the future of the country and in the coming decades, the HAL should focus on mastering technologies for all types of aircraft. Think ahead as the entire paradigm of warfare is changing,” he said.

Highlighting the role of unmanned aircraft in future warfare, the Defence Secretary encouraged the HAL to collaborate with other private companies to develop new platforms. He inspected the manufacturing range of various engines and test beds and also paid a visit to HAL’s Aerospace Division.

Chairman & Managing Director (Addl. Charge) of HAL Shri CB Ananthakrishnan said: “The development of this facility marks a key milestone in HAL’s growth trajectory. It is a testimony of our commitment towards achieving ‘Aatmanirbharta’ in aero-engine design and development.”

The Centre, established in the 1960s, holds the unique distinction of being the only design house that has developed test beds for engines of both Western and Russian origin. The Centre has successfully developed & certified PTAE-7 engine, the first indigenous turbojet engine of India powering Lakshya (Unmanned Aircraft), Gas Turbine Electrical Generator GTEG-60 for starting An-32 aircraft, Air starter ATS 37 & Air producer for starting Adour-Mk 804E/811 on Jaguar Aircraft and Shakti engine for powering ALH to support Ad804/811 engine of Jaguar aircraft.

[suryag]

Gurus - whats this new High altitude test campaign, hasnt this been done twice now ? is this the final dry variant of kaveri ?

[williams]

Maitya Ji, thanks for such detailed explanation and answers. All I can glean from what you are saying is that engine D&D is a continuous process and we should keep pursuing it with as much support we can give to our own effort. We need to continue to collect data, make our own course correction and learn from it.

[Baikul]

Commenting on the article onlee, saar and it seems it is the usual self glorying mishmash,

India’s Kaveri Engine Begins Key Testing on Russian Il-76 Aircraft
https://jetlinemarvel.net/indias-kaveri ... -aircraft/

Of setting grandiose targets, and

Unlike the F-404 engines, which suffer from a 7-8% power degradation in hot conditions, the Kaveri engine will maintain its thrust, ensuring better performance under challenging conditions.

Making ambitious future comparisons and claims without providing the slightest basis for them, with

GTRE is focused on developing a new generation of Kaveri engines capable of delivering more power and better performance under extreme conditions. Once the Dry Kaveri+ kaveri afterburner section is tested successfully, the research body plans to propose government funding for the development of a 90 kN engine, which will replace the F-404 engines in the Tejas Mk1A within the next decade.

The said claims again, followed by the usual guff, may I say, totally new project we’re starting onlee.

Defence Secretary inaugurates new design & test facility at HAL’s Aero Engine Research & Development Centre in Bengaluru
https://pib.gov.in/PressReleaseIframePa ... ID=1991532

Defence Secretary Shri Giridhar Aramane inaugurated……

And then once again this by now cynical desi heart hopes it’s true this time.

[Rakesh]

Game-Changer for India: Aero Engine Decision Expected in 2025

In this week's episode of Defence Mantra, on viewer request, we discuss India's pursuit of indigenous aero engine technology, which has been a significant aspect of its defence and aerospace strategy. You might remember that the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) initiated the Kaveri engine project in the 1990s to power the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas. However, the Kaveri engine did not meet the required thrust levels for the Tejas, leading to its discontinuation for this application. Reiterating the significance of the aero engine program for India’s overall defence and aerospace capabilities, we discuss the challenges faced in developing indigenous aero-engine capabilities, which include:

• Technological Complexity: Designing and manufacturing advanced jet engines require sophisticated technology and expertise, which India has been developing over time.

• Material Science Limitations: Developing materials that can withstand extreme conditions within jet engines has been a significant hurdle.

• Testing Infrastructure: Limited access to advanced testing facilities has delayed progress. For instance, the lack of such facilities in India necessitated conducting high-altitude tests in Russia.

To overcome these challenges, India has been exploring collaborations with international partners. General Electric (GE) announced its readiness to supply F414 engines for the forthcoming Tejas Mk2, including potential joint production in India. Additionally, companies like Rolls-Royce and Safran have expressed interest in co-developing bespoke engines with India, offering full transfer of intellectual property to support India's goal of self-reliance in defence technology. India’s aero engine development will surely fit into the broader context of Atmanirbhar Bharat (self-reliant India) in defence.

As Aero India approaches, it presents an opportune moment for India to focus on advancing its aero engine program. Emphasising research & development, enhancing testing infrastructure, and fostering international collaborations will be crucial steps toward achieving self-reliance in this critical technology domain. Nitin feels that 2025 will be the year in which the significant decision of the manufacture of the aero engine will be taken.

[Rakesh]

Korea elevates aviation engines to national strategic technology with tax incentives
https://biz.chosun.com/en/en-industry/2 ... XSH7WS2IE/
26 Dec 2024

[Cyrano]

After the Military Flight Safety thread, this is the most depressing thread on this forum

Hum hongey kaamyaab ek din !

[AkshaySG]

After the Military Flight Safety thread, this is the most depressing thread on this forum

Hum hongey kaamyaab ek din !

I would put the MRCA/MMRCA/SEF dhaga right up there with the most depressing ones.. 20+ years, countless discussions and posts, multiple details and rebirths all for 36 jets

And it's not going anywhere for the rest of this decade either.

[drnayar]

Korea elevates aviation engines to national strategic technology with tax incentives
https://biz.chosun.com/en/en-industry/2 ... XSH7WS2IE/
26 Dec 2024

not just Korea.. the bird too
https://www.defenceturkey.com/en/conte ... ested-5990


Türkiye`s First Indigenous Turbofan Aircraft Engine TF6000 Successfully Tested
May 24

[Yagnasri]

If we want to get depressed, we can just check the starting date of Project 75 It begins thread.

[uddu]

BRF members need to step back and think for a moment before emotions overrule us. The countries like SK, Turkey etc are only starting now. We have our own functioning Kaveri. Only the thrust level is not meeting the IAF requirement for which the latest attempt is to make that happen. Its obvious that in India the decisions are made late and considerable time is wasted before moving forward. But guys be assured that we are on the right track. Kaveri and its variants be it Ver2 all will happen. How fast is the only question

By the way the Turkish engine is
TEI developed the TF6000 turbofan engine, which delivers a thrust of 6,000 lbf (26.7 kN) with no need for an afterburner. Designing this engine primarily aims to gain experience in developing a domestic engine for the National Combat Aircraft, a project involving both local and national capabilities.
This cant be compared to India's achievement. Also the spin off of Kaveri is happening too with UCAV, for usage on ships etc. More variants by HAL (HAL HTFE-25 with 25 kN) and private players have also started. So Government must put manpower and money into it so that in the near future, we have all the engines needed within the nation.
The latest news being test facility for higher thrust engines operational. So its obvious more engines with higher thrust will come. In the meantime, time to further strengthen engine infrastructure even our own efforts to set up various testing facility high altitude and Flying Engine Testbeds.
Some test facilities of JAXA
https://www.aero.jaxa.jp/eng/facilities/aeroengine/

[Manish_P]

^ Uddu ji, I think the angst is more towards the apparent non harmonius synergies between the developers, the facilitators and the end users.

In the LCA thread just a while back an excerpt has been posted on how certain factions (lobbies) within the IAF didn't want the air chief to attend a particular program as it might show that the IAF was backing it

[maitya]

From The Hindu: Sixth-generation aero-engine can be developed by tying up with foreign firm: DRDO chief

The only way India can develop a sixth-generation aero-engine and other technologies required is by co-development with a foreign manufacturer, Samir V. Kamat, Chairman of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO), said while noting that India currently invests only 5% of its defence budget for research and development, which needs to increased to 15%.
...
...
“If we look at what we need to do in terms of technologies, the first priority is aero-engines. Today, we have demonstrated a fourth-generation aero-engine for our fighter aircraft but going ahead we will need a sixth-generation aero-engine where the thrust to weight ratios exceed 10,” Mr. Kamat said, speaking at an event two days ago.
...
...
Since then discussions have been going on between the DRDO’s Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), and Safran to work out the specifications and other modalities.
...
...
He detailed various technologies that need to be developed such as single-crystal blade powder metallurgy discs and ceramic matrix composites for static parts to begin with.
...

[sanjayc]

^ Uddu ji, I think the angst is more towards the apparent non harmonius synergies between the developers, the facilitators and the end users.

In the LCA thread just a while back an excerpt has been posted on how certain factions (lobbies) within the IAF didn't want the air chief to attend a particular program as it might show that the IAF was backing it

Armed forces should not get a free pass. Their rabid import obsession is responsible for India, a 4 trillion dollar economy, is still shopping for arms worldwide and getting pushed around by Western firms. I am seeing this trick of pretending that Indian private companies don't exist, and there are only two options to buy arms: Crappy OFB factories or Western firms. Generals then find it easy to build a case for Western firms by complaining about product quality of OFB

[chetak]

^ Uddu ji, I think the angst is more towards the apparent non harmonius synergies between the developers, the facilitators and the end users.

In the LCA thread just a while back an excerpt has been posted on how certain factions (lobbies) within the IAF didn't want the air chief to attend a particular program as it might show that the IAF was backing it

Armed forces should not get a free pass. Their rabid import obsession is responsible for India, a 4 trillion dollar economy, is still shopping for arms worldwide and getting pushed around by Western firms. I am seeing this trick of pretending that Indian private companies don't exist, and there are only two options to buy arms: Crappy OFB factories or Western firms. Generals then find it easy to build a case for Western firms by complaining about product quality of OFB

sanjayc ji,

most PSU/OFBs have militant labor, led by violence prone unions and "leaders" with a naxali mindset and not above butchering vulnerable management types.

What else can be expected of such a workforce if not poor product quality

can this scenario be changed: Yes

will this scenario actually be changed: No

Everyone here already knows why not

why then point the finger at the jernails and the Forces, or are they expected to fight only with lathis, while the rest routinely collect their wages and head off to the nearest TASMAC shop/outlet or equivalent in their states and piss it all away

[Tanaji]

Chetakji, with due respect this is no longer an issue of PSU Labour mentality - it has gone beyond that. A certain section of the top brass of IA and IAF are militantly against any IDDM product, be it PSU or non PSU for reasons that one can guess. They are aided by the smiling conniving babu in all of this. A prime example is the treatment of Baba Kalyani in all of this: the IA brass keeps lusting for the Athos gun while Kalyani - which has a superior product and is as non PSU as one gets - is subjected to endless trials. Same goes for MGS requirements.
Private small arms manufacturers don’t even figure for IA beyond laughable orders of 300-400 guns. LUH is another example - given the experience with Dhruv one would expect more confidence in HAL rotary division but we see IA insisting on flogging your good name to the hilt…

[Kailash]

Indigenization appreciation hour from Saurav Jha covered various advancements in the kaveri dry variant like the new fan, new FADEC, SC blades, drilled cooling channels, TBC, wide arc blade design etc.

https://www.youtube.com/live/_pWc1Hy-wTg

Called a KDE kaveri derivative engine. Starts off around 13 minutes

[maitya]

DDR: Indigenization Appreciation Hour with Saurav Jha

Salient Points (that I could make out), wrt Dry Kaveri aka Kaveri Derivative Engine (KDE):

1. Has multiple improvements over K9, though basic design is same. Max thrust will be in the 46-48 kN (at IRA SLS) and is derated purposefully for a UCAV application. Original K9 had 52KN dry thrust ratings, not required for UCAV application.

2. Our UCAV program (supposedly of 13T MTOW class) is the first program, which will have the engine ready even before the platform itself has been fabricated.

3. Have already undergone many hours of bench tests in Bangalore - plus ~ 100 hours high-altitude testing in CIAM, Russia.

4. The LSP run (of 6 TFs) by Godrej has 80%+ indigenous content - signals our maturity wrt 4th Gen TF (may have better parts life than other 4th Gen engines).
Multiple indigenous supplier involved, signaling indigenous TF industrial eco-system taking shape - these supplier base already supplies to various established global OEMS (LEAP Program etc).
One of these 6 engines will go for inflight testing in GFRI, Russia, soon.

5. KDE has a new Fan, to cater to higher inlet distortion tolerance, typical of a serpentine intake - and a new anti-icing system.
(has been fairly well known for quite some time now)

6. KDE now has 2nd Gen SX (with TBC) on HPT Blades and Vanes, DS on LPT Blades (K9 used DS on HPT blades and Equiaxed on LPT).

7. Autonomous FADEC is new - may allow TV capability in future.

8. Current EBPVD coating is via imported (from Germany) machines.
DMRL/ARCI are working on indigenous EBPVD machine (design is ready), where multiple blades can be coated simultaneously. ARCI already has a EBPVD setup but that is more of a tech demo purpose - not suited for industrial scale production.

9. KDE now has indigenous hydro-mechanical fuel control system (K9 had an imported system) - this one more advanced with multiple advanced features, and is tailor-made for UCAV application.

10. Wrt HTFE, it will not get certified before 2027.

Added Later: Some published details of the KDE, for better referencing/context wrt Pt 1 above.

[fanne]

No 6 point 2nd gen SX (with TBC), is SX = single crystal?

[maitya]

No 6 point 2nd gen SX (with TBC), is SX = single crystal?

Yes, I think it's CMX4 derivative, but not sure ...

[Kailash]

Really hope we have a few squadrons of the UCAV, just to allow unobstructed manufacturing of kaveri KDE.. if not for anything else, to keep the private players commercially interested on the project.

Knowing the history that we know, it's time to trust in God, add KDE to your prayers

It is extremely easy and likely for India to falter, doesn't capitalise on what seems obvious here.

[maitya]

Sorry, a word of caution, before the mere mention of the SX casted HPT blades (in KDE HPT) above, raises too much of hope etc.

First various SC Gens, vis-a-vis our indigenous 4th Gen SC superalloy, DMS4 ... plus Adv of SC-Casted vs DS-Casted tech vis-a-vis turbine blade applications.

Secondly, technology roadmap for 5th Gen TF development etc.

Betw, consider this wrt pt 8 above i.e. indigenous options wrt EBPVD for TBCs of Turbine blades/vanes.

[ShauryaT]

Even the shape of the holes is high-tech!! A good overview of the challenges from a user's perspective.

[maitya]

[at 18:13 onwards] So, we had been "begging for a slot, to test the updated KDE" in CIAM, Russia "for 9 months now", without any success - but then some genius in MoD stalled the High Altitude Test Facility setup proposal, a few years back, on advice of somebody from Russia?

For context, the 1st iteration of KDE completed it's high-altitude tests in Feb 2023 - and after some more modifications, presumably the LSP KDE versions from Godrej, have not been able to secure high-altitude test slots since then - easily the entire 2024 went waiting for this slot, I'd guess.

Oh well ...

[fanne]

A stupid question, but here it goes - can the high altitude to a certain extent be simulated in ground station at high altitude (like leh). Build it at a place where there is no vegetation (leh does not seam to have) on a high rise rock that has unobstructed air flow. Hopefully on a frame that can move to simulate angle of attack. It would be poor man high altitude test center. All of this is based on that we have plane for high altitude (one a320 from air India called anusandhan was acquired for it) but have no one willing to convert it for high altitude testing under one pretext or other. We may not have the expertise.

[dinesh_kimar]

^ Higher than Leh is Mt.Everest, at 8864 m.

High Altitude facility simulates the engine from 20000 to 50000 m, over its performance envelope with subsequent loss of pressure, lack of oxygen,etc.

[Kailash]

Even the japanese have a high altitude engine test facility. We lack creativity when trying to find solutions. This is assuming we did not want to go to any of the western nations.

Please let it not be money that we persist with the Russians

[williams]

A stupid question, but here it goes - can the high altitude to a certain extent be simulated in ground station at high altitude (like leh). Build it at a place where there is no vegetation (leh does not seam to have) on a high rise rock that has unobstructed air flow. Hopefully on a frame that can move to simulate angle of attack. It would be poor man high altitude test center. All of this is based on that we have plane for high altitude (one a320 from air India called anusandhan was acquired for it) but have no one willing to convert it for high altitude testing under one pretext or other. We may not have the expertise.

They can add the instrumentation in a A320 if there is a will. As I said before, we either need a Russia/China system where there is fear of disappearing from planet earth or there should be a profit motive to do it. Our folks are working on another kind of profit motive which is completely useless.

[dinesh_kimar]

^ In my post, I meant 50000 ft, not metre. Rolls Royce and GE can apparently test upto 30000 ft, and the Japanese facility was 15000 m/ 49000 ft.

ISRO has an altitude test facility at Mahendragiri. Maybe it is suitable for DRDO GTRE requirements, but we don't know.
Similar space facilities can simulate upto 100000 ft, but rocket engines are mounted vertically, aero engines horizontally. The enclosures,etc may differ.

Hope the boffins can fabricate a test stand for GTRE requirements, and share the facility with them. An hour of test time a week will make a world of difference to the project.

[dinesh_kimar]

They can add the instrumentation in a A320 if there is a will.

They desperately need a Flying Test Bed, Altitude Test Facility and component test rigs to try different configurations quickly, and improve the Design performance. The FTB should be done by Israel, IAI, who have done structural modification of aircraft, or by Ukraine, who can do conversion on IL-76 aircraft.

The Chinese J-36 6th Gen Flight, and the GE Supply Chain crisis has unprecedented consequences.
All the IAF brass AND the Defence Secretary have come on Press Conferences and promised things.

With the Social Media avbl today, any defeat to China will surely lead to Court Martials, these Gentlemen did not order on time.

[fanne]

A fun fact, if I recall correctly, for p8i deal, the offset was for Boeing to build high altitude test rig. It had publicly agreed. It has yet to be built, after 15 years.

[VinodTK]

[at 18:13 onwards] So, we had been "begging for a slot, to test the updated KDE" in CIAM, Russia "for 9 months now", without any success - but then some genius in MoD stalled the High Altitude Test Facility setup proposal, a few years back, on advice of somebody from Russia?

Who ever that idiot is should be named, shamed, and his name should be dragged through mud. so that it serves as an example.

[williams]

I think we need some sort of incentive system that can pay these DM Babus and top brass a bonus on something based on how much they did for indigenous development and domestic defense products. That could motivate them to fast track decisions.

[Aditya_V]

I think we need some sort of incentive system that can pay these DM Babus and top brass a bonus on something based on how much they did for indigenous development and domestic defense products. That could motivate them to fast track decisions.

Pretty Simplistic, you would foreign powers let a competitor rise, follow the children, some will get to US-UK, Australia- Canada based on Merit and hard work, others will be there based on agenda, how do you separate wheat from the Chaff ?

Once we have booming industries, industrial jobs open up, but till you get there they will use very tactic to smash us, it is consistent right delivery over a period of time which is required. In year 2000, we had built only Ambassador and Premier Padmini engines in India. All Maruti engine and Gearbox was imported, till Tata decided to bring in Indica -on which they incurred lots of losses, Ford in order to compete tied up with Hindustan Lever for engines, seeing the Tea Leaves, Suzuki decided they would loose their biggest Market if engines and gearboxes are imported- rest is history.

and worst part , any major programme breakthrough we have been able to achieve only without media coverage- Right now there is very little public knowledge, but based on publicly available knowledge- we have screwed up big time. But we cant squadron numbers without a locally designed aircraft- I hope the LCA Mk1A, Mk2, TEDBF, AMCA are pursued otherwise we will stay where we are for next 40 years.

We are now paying a price for our Neutrality and past import pasand behavior.

[Aditya_V]

The whole world seems to be screwing us cause our Babus and Politicos dont seem to want to invest in Infrastructure within the country.

[TVenky]

I think we need some sort of incentive system that can pay these DM Babus and top brass a bonus on something based on how much they did for indigenous development and domestic defense products. That could motivate them to fast track decisions.

Greed doesnt have limit.. if you give them incentive- "more than they deserve", Bapus & officers, will now start expecting "incentive ++".
Like, as if Svetlana alone is not enough , they would now expect to arrange orgy with Natallia, Katarina etc.

Sir, time for 'carrot' is over long back.. say, 30 years ago... it is time for 'stick' therapy; this is also already delayed. Therefore, I strongly belive there is Zero time for mercy & incentives.

IF 'I' were the one to offer 'Stick' therapy, I would enhance it with 'Rod & Rivet' therapy.

May be we can discuss how to and what all we could do in Rod & Rivert' therapy ?.

[saumitra_j]

Nice video from Doordarshan, so it is as official as it gets!

Key takeaways for me:

• Engine certification for flying has been achieved, more tests planned and expected to end by 2025

• Serial production expected to start by end 2025, start 2026

• Dry Kaveri to be used in Ghatak - something we already know

• Post this, DRDO to put up a proposal for funding the development of modified Kaveri with 90KN thrust, to be used in MLU of Tejas Mk1A as a replacement of GE 404!!, clearly calls out the advantages of Kaveri's flat rating over GE 404's performance drop of about 7 to 8%

Hopefully AI 2025 will throw more light, those going for it please if you can get as many details as can be publicly shared!!