Indian Naval Aviation

[Rakesh]

US Approves Sale of Anti-Submarine Warfare Equipment To India
https://bharatshakti.in/us-approves-sal ... -to-india/
24 August 2024

[Kartik]

India seeks sonobuoys for MH-60Rs

India has requested the sale of three types of air-launched anti-submarine warfare (ASW) sonobuoys for use with its new Sikorsky MH-60R helicopter fleet, according to the US Department of State.

The US Defense Security Cooperation Agency (DSCA) said on 23 August that New Delhi seeks to procure AN/SSQ-53G High Altitude Anti-Submarine Warfare (HAASW) sonobuoys, AN/SSQ-62F HAASW sonobuoys, and AN/SSQ-36 sonobuoys in a deal potentially worth USD52.8 million.

The US Secretary of State approved the possible Foreign Military Sale on 23 August, which also includes technical publications and data documentation, DSCA added.

The AN/SSQ-53G is a multifunctional directional frequency analysis and recording (DIFAR) sonobuoy combining a passive directional and calibrated wide-band capability. The sonobuoy uses an electronic function selection (EFS) and/or command function select (CFS) to choose the sensor modes prior to or after the sonobuoy's deployment.


..

[sanman]

[ramana]

Director.

A bit on the book...

'Paper to Flight’ charts the remarkable journey of India's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA),
from its inception on paper to its successful flight operations.

Beginning with a concise
introduction to the Air Force variant, #LCA #Tejas, the narrative dives into the origins, design, and development of the Naval Version (LCA Navy) tracing the milestones from the initial Government Approval (Paper) through to the rigorous stages of flight testing (Flight).

The book offers a vivid portrayal of the teams’ collective
perseverance and innovation, highlighting their success in overcoming numerous
obstacles to develop India's first indigenously produced ship-borne and air-based
combat aircraft.

The book highlights the strategic significance of
both versions, demonstrating how the development of indigenous aircraft is vital for
national defence and technological self-reliance.
Offering valuable insights for future indigenisation efforts, the book serves as both an
engaging narrative and a reference

[Rakesh]

....

Ramana-ji, I posted the above in the Naval LCA thread. Thanks.

viewtopic.php?p=2629487#p2629487

[ramana]

Oh good.

[Rakesh]

Below is part of a twitter thread from a twitter user who went to the IDAX (Indian Defence Aviation Exposition) at Jodhpur.

https://x.com/Tanishq_bafila/status/1834889125809308018 ---> AEW&C MK-II: Based on the A-321 platform. A total of six aircraft to be made. Coverage: 300 degrees. Currently in the advanced phase of work. Timeline: 2027.

MMMA (Navy): Based on the C-295 platform. Timeline: 2028.

[Rakesh]

The news article below quotes IDRW , but the simulators were always part of the deal.

Similar setup with the French Navy. The French Navy sends their pilots to the US Navy, to train alongside US naval aviators and operate the T-45 Goshawk for this task. Once they complete this part of the training syllabus, then they head back to France for simulator training on a Rafale M mock-up cockpit. There is no twin seater Rafale M. The proposed Rafale BM variant was cancelled to curtail costs during the aircraft's development.

Hoping that the Indian Navy takes the plunge on the Naval Tejas (viewtopic.php?p=2630141#p2630141), so our Naval aviators can use that aircraft for experience in real world, aircraft carrier take-offs and landings. A twin seater Naval Tejas would be perfect for this role.

Nuclear submarine will be a leapfrog for India-France ties, bring New Delhi into exclusive club
https://theprint.in/opinion/nuclear-sub ... s/2286794/
27 Sept 2024

Not long after the news broke about India finalising a 26 Rafale Marine jet deal for aircraft carrier INS Vikrant, it was reported that the Indian Navy could be procuring at least two Rafale simulation centres for training its crew, including pilots.

[Rakesh]

As per article below, Rudram and Astra missiles will be integrated on to the Rafale M.

Ahead of NSA visit, France submits final price offer for 26 Rafale Marine jet deal
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 929185206/
29 Sept 2024

[maitya]

As per article below, Rudram and Astra missiles will be integrated on to the Rafale M.

Ahead of NSA visit, France submits final price offer for 26 Rafale Marine jet deal
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 929185206/
29 Sept 2024
...
...
India has also approved deviations in the letter of request, which is the tender document equivalent in government to government deals, like the integration of the indigenous Uttam radar in the jets for the Indian Navy.
Sources said that the integration would have taken a longer time of around eight years along with a high price to be paid to the French side for doing so.

Any speculation wrt what does the highlighted snippet actually means ...
Are we getting an Uttam-variant on Rafale M or are we forgoing that already-asked-for option (as it would have costed a lot, in terms of "integration-fee" etc to the French)?

[fanne]

We are forgoing it. No Uttam of Rafale, but kudos to IN for considering it. I am more interested in mission computer- I think it is French, but wished that was Indian.

[fanne]

Another data point, 30% of Rafale cost is its avionics. Looks like we are right there. It will be interesting to see what kind of avionics we have on MKI upgrade and on MK2. I would wager that we should also go for mid life upgrade on Tejasmk1a as it is already delayed. Bring it upto Rafale level now (to the extent it can support it, given lack of real estate). I would do GaN Uttam, some kind of MAWS, 360 degree RWR (and laser) and external jammers to support it (already Angad is there, go for version 2). Maybe one of the hardpoint, the missile ejector itself has FLIR (so no hardpoint is used), multiple racks for missile firing etc etc.

[Rakesh]

Any speculation wrt what does the highlighted snippet actually means ...
Are we getting an Uttam-variant on Rafale M or are we forgoing that already-asked-for option (as it would have costed a lot, in terms of "integration-fee" etc to the French)?

No Uttam variant is coming on the Rafale M. Uttam would have allowed more Indian weaponry to be integrated on the aircraft, but now it appears to be limited to the Astra and the Rudram. Perhaps during a future MLU update, the radar could be integrated in India and for cheaper.

Also see this nearly two year old post ---> viewtopic.php?p=2567609&hilit=BDL#p2567609

[maitya]

Any speculation wrt what does the highlighted snippet actually means ...
Are we getting an Uttam-variant on Rafale M or are we forgoing that already-asked-for option (as it would have costed a lot, in terms of "integration-fee" etc to the French)?

No Uttam variant is coming on the Rafale M. Uttam would have allowed more Indian weaponry to be integrated on the aircraft, but now it appears to be limited to the Astra and the Rudram. Perhaps during a future MLU update, the radar could be integrated in India and for cheaper.

Also see this nearly two year old post ---> viewtopic.php?p=2567609&hilit=BDL#p2567609

Right ... an age-old game by OEMs of all hue, to maintain dependence. Deny (or ask obscenely high fees) for parts or system replacement, so that the user country remains beholden/dependent forever.

8 years to integrate another radar - c'mon!!
36 + 26 is not small number, why this was not insisted upon and not projected as deal-breaker etc ...
Radar, of course, on it's own wouldn't have helped much - bare minm the Mission Comp (called MDPU for Rafale) is also required (atleast the source code of the same).

But import-pasandness will obscure all such "inconvenient details" ... which OEM will let go any such opportunities, more so, given the salivating/smitten-nature of the importing-countries' negotiating representatives.

[Rakesh]

Right ... an age-old game by OEMs of all hue, to maintain dependence. Deny (or ask obscenely high fees) for parts or system replacement, so that the user country remains beholden/dependent forever.

8 years to integrate another radar - c'mon!!
36 + 26 is not small number, why this was not insisted upon and not projected as deal-breaker etc ...
Radar, of course, on it's own wouldn't have helped much - bare minm the Mission Comp (called MDPU for Rafale) is also required (atleast the source code of the same).

But import-pasandness will obscure all such "inconvenient details" ... which OEM will let go any such opportunities, more so, given the salivating/smitten-nature of the importing-countries' negotiating representatives.

It is actually a good thing that the Uttam integration did not go through. Eight years is indeed a stretch by Thales. But the IN needs the Rafale M like now (which is not going to happen). After contract signing, it will take three years for the first batch to arrive. Assuming a contract is signed before 31 Mar 2025 (as per their plan), the earliest these aircraft will arrive is sometime in early 2028. But if the IN went ahead with the Uttam integration, the first batch will arrive in 2036! We can scoff at the date, but we are at the mercy of the OEM here. They are definitely lying, but what choice does one have?

The main USP of an aircraft carrier is her fleet of fixed wing combat aircraft and with INS Vikrant, that is just not there. The fleet availability of the MiG-29K/KUB is dismal. Continuing with the MiG-29K/KUB fleet into the mid-2030s is not going to work, especially with the slugfest that is going on between Russia and Ukraine.

Now what can be done is integration of the Uttam radar during a MLU refit, but even that will be tricky. The Rafale fleet is abysmally small in the IAF (36) and will be even lower in the IN (22 + 4). As of 01 Oct 2024, there are more Tejas Mk1s in active squadron service (~ 39) with the Indian Air Force, than there are Rafales (36). That is a fact. And two squadrons of Tejas is nothing to crow about.

The reason why the Su-30MKI is the standard test bed aircraft for everything (Uttam AESA, Astra BVRAAM, Rudram anti-radiation missile, etc) is there are 260+ airframes in active service and with 12 more on the way. Pulling an aircraft or two out of squadron service, will not be an issue. With the Rafale, every available airframe will be required...when the balloon goes up. Pulling a couple of airframes out of service and go running off on some science experiment (i.e. radar integration), for 4 or 3 or even 2 years, will be challenging.

The only realistic solution (if Uttam radar integration is an absolute must) around this is to do the ONE thing that is frowned upon i.e. buy even more imports. If additional Rafale airframes are acquired, then it opens the door to this.

But it does not matter, if we frown upon it or not...the MRFA contest is still very much alive at Air HQ and even the new Air Chief will be gung-ho in ensuring the contest is concluded in some form. When Air Chief Marshal RKS Bhadauria became the CAS in 2019, there was elation (because he was a strong proponent of Atmanirbhar Bharat and he was closely associated with the Tejas program)...but that balloon of euphoria got deflated very quickly, when the Chief insisted on the MRFA contract. The new CAS has been even more involved in the Tejas program, but folks will be disappointed when he talks of the urgency of the MRFA. Air HQ will not drop the MRFA and with the 2 engines per month from GE for Tejas Mk1A, good luck!

That Dassault was even open to such an integration will give it a top spot in the MRFA contest and that fact is not lost on Air HQ or Naval HQ. Rafale's only serious competitor in the MRFA contest - the F-15EX from Boeing - will never agree to such an integration. Uttam AESA will be cheaper to acquire than the AN/APG-82 AESA on the F-15EX and the Indian weaponry will be cheaper to acquire than what comes on the F-15EX. That will not fly at Raytheon, the maker of the radar and much of the weaponry on the F-15EX. Also how can the US Congress justify annual inspections?

Increase the number of Rafales (via screwdrivergiri) that India acquires, then Uttam will definitely happen in a MLU refit or even on later production batches of the screwdrivergiri line. Catch 22.

[chetak]

As per article below, Rudram and Astra missiles will be integrated on to the Rafale M.

Ahead of NSA visit, France submits final price offer for 26 Rafale Marine jet deal
https://aninews.in/news/national/genera ... 929185206/
29 Sept 2024
...
...
India has also approved deviations in the letter of request, which is the tender document equivalent in government to government deals, like the integration of the indigenous Uttam radar in the jets for the Indian Navy.
Sources said that the integration would have taken a longer time of around eight years along with a high price to be paid to the French side for doing so.

Any speculation wrt what does the highlighted snippet actually means ...
Are we getting an Uttam-variant on Rafale M or are we forgoing that already-asked-for option (as it would have costed a lot, in terms of "integration-fee" etc to the French)?

maitya ji,

This is not possible.

Discussions are yet to take place between a semi eyetaalian expert and the SC.

Remember, the fiscal festivities from the previous deal are yet to subsidize.

Edited once to correct grammar onlee.

[Rakesh]

maitya ji,

This is not possible.

Discussions are yet to take place between a semi eyetaalian expert and the SC.

Remember, the fiscal festivities from the previous deal are yet to subsidize.

Edited once to correct grammar onlee.

+108!

This semi eyetaalian expert did India a great service by raking up the Rafale issue and that too all the way up to the SC.

The gyan we were being given on BRF!

[A Deshmukh]

in one dark way, this is good. this keeps hopes alive for the TEDBF.

[Kartik]

We are forgoing it. No Uttam of Rafale, but kudos to IN for considering it. I am more interested in mission computer- I think it is French, but wished that was Indian.

That would again cause delays to the induction of the Rafale M into the IN. The Mirage-2000I had a HAL designed and built MC. It was HAL that had to complete the FOC activities and nearly 170 flights were flown by HAL/ASTE to validate and certify all the HAL supplied equipment. Till then the Mirage-2000I was not

[Rakesh]

Till then the Mirage-2000I was not

was not....?

Did you mean to add something to that sentence?

[Kartik]

Till then the Mirage-2000I was not

was not....?

Did you mean to add something to that sentence?

thanks.

I think I was stating that it was HAL that had to complete the FOC activities for the Mirage-2000I upgrade. Till the time HAL, ASTE and NFTC didn't complete their FOC related tasks, the upgrade development was not completed and certified.

[maitya]

Speculation about Naval Tejas induction?
Purely based on a recent comment by the ADA chief Dr Jitendra Yadav - apparently, 1 sq to be inducted, on primarily a Trainer role - will help smooth out production risks of TEDBF and will also increase the sortie rate of the MiG-29K platforms.
Any other news outlet reporting this?

[Rakesh]

^^^ Maitya-ji...for what it is worth, I have seen this being reported on Twitter as well. With the negotiations of the Rafale M almost completed, the Navy will likely go in for these two-seat Naval Tejas trainers. The absence of a twin seater Rafale M and with just Rafale M simulator training, will not provide the assurance that Indian Naval planners will need to ensure that its rookie pilots know how to safely take off and land the Rafale M. A twin seat Naval Tejas will go a long way in assuaging these concerns. In the French Navy, they train on the T-45 Goshawk aboard US aircraft carriers.

The few MiG-29KUB trainers left will have to bear the burden of training MiG-29K pilots. But the entire fleet will see a reduction in flying hours, as the Rafale M squadron takes up the mantle of the Indian Navy's fixed-wing carrier combat aircraft.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/alpha_defense/status/1850080490583191725 ---> Another positive news - CSIR (Council of Scientific & Industrial Research) in years time improved onboard Oxygen Generators of MiG-29K.

[Prasad]

Speculation about Naval Tejas induction?
Purely based on a recent comment by the ADA chief Dr Jitendra Yadav - apparently, 1 sq to be inducted, on primarily a Trainer role - will help smooth out production risks of TEDBF and will also increase the sortie rate of the MiG-29K platforms.
Any other news outlet reporting this?

https://x.com/delhidefence/status/1847492663765062070

I was there. Navy wants it. ADA wants it. I'm sure HAL also wants it, given they've put in the effort to have a setup that also built the NP-5. Now it is upto the decision makers to approve it.

[ernest]

Thanks for the great update, Prasad. Will there be a constraint to this from F404 engine delays? Any other hurdles that you foresee to this?

[Rakesh]

Indian Navy To Boost Maritime Surveillance With ‘Navalised’ Version Of Airbus C-295
https://bharatshakti.in/indian-navy-to- ... bus-c-295/
14 Nov 2024

[srai]

^^^
Are these additional orders?

Previous orders were mixed in with Coast Guard orders.

[A Deshmukh]

Air Force - 56
Maritime - 15 (Navy - 9, Coast Gaurd 6)

[Rakesh]

US approves $1.17 Billion sale of MH-60R Seahawk helicopter equipment to India
https://bharatshakti.in/us-approves-1-1 ... -to-india/
03 Dec 2024

[Rakesh]

Romeos done, Navy to install indigenous software-defined radio in all its aerial assets
https://theprint.in/defence/romeos-done ... s/2356794/
14 Nov 2024

SDR, which has been developed by Navy along with BEL, is already fitted in surface ships. Device helps in carrying out signal processing using radio frequency communication systems.

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/Dassault_OnAir/status/1864255780716765682 ---> Excellence at sea! Let's celebrate Indian Navy Day.

[Rakesh]

French Carrier Strike Group Commander says Rafale will deepen bond

French Rear Admiral Jacques Mallard - Commander of the French Carrier Strike Group - has said that the induction of the Rafale into the Indian Navy will bring the two navies closer. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is scheduled to visit France in February and is likely to sign a deal for 26 Rafale Marines and three additional Scorpene submarines for the Indian Navy. France has emerged as a strong strategic partner for India and both nations are working together to deepen this relationship.

[Rakesh]

US firm replaces Indian Navy’s crashed drone
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 95761.html
03 Feb 2025

US firm General Atomics has replaced the MQ-9B SeaGuardian remotely piloted aircraft (RPA) that crashed into the Bay of Bengal on September 18.

Last year, India signed a deal worth $3.5 billion with the US to acquire 31 MQ-9B Sea/SkyGuardian drones to boost its defence preparedness, primarily with an eye on China.
...
The deliveries are expected to begin in 2029 , HT has learnt.

From the MIC that never sleeps. Jai Ho!

[Manish_P]

...
From the MIC that never sleeps. Jai Ho!

Also the MIC which puts other's nations MIC to sleep

[A Deshmukh]

The deliveries are expected to begin in 2029 , HT has learnt.
From the MIC that never sleeps. Jai Ho!

by 2029 - we will have our own drones (hopefully) and also the tech in these drones will be outdated.
we should tell Trump admin - that new orders will come only after the delivery of previously ordered items - drones, GE engines, Apaches, etc...

[Rakesh]

India, France to sign Rafale marine fighters deal, likely during French defence minister’s April visit
https://theprint.in/defence/india-franc ... t/2478407/
04 Feb 2025

India also developing 87 Twin Engine Deck Based Fighters. Indian Navy initially sought 145, based on three-carrier force plan, but govt advised planning based on two-aircraft carrier force.

[Aditya G]

India, France to sign Rafale marine fighters deal, likely during French defence minister’s April visit
https://theprint.in/defence/india-franc ... t/2478407/
04 Feb 2025

India also developing 87 Twin Engine Deck Based Fighters. Indian Navy initially sought 145, based on three-carrier force plan, but govt advised planning based on two-aircraft carrier force.

Given the need of a 3 carrier force as 1 might be in refit or maintenance, a carrier air wing sized to 2 carriers should be enough. IN can improve the chances of P-71A ship by arguing that we wont need money for aircraft... IMHO

[srai]

^^*
Boost some numbers with very affordable NLCA.

Although range limited (~400km combat radius), still will be quite capable:

Air defense

• 1x 720ltr belly tank
• 4 x Astra BVR
• 2 x ASRAAM

Strike

• 1 x 720ltr belly tank
• 2 x LR ASM / PGM
• 2 x ASRAAM

[Rakesh]

https://x.com/guardingindia/status/1887189617620787208 ---> The U.S. has delivered 10 MH-60R helicopters to the Indian Navy, with the remaining 14 scheduled for delivery next year.